Affirmative Action!!

nne97080 · May 31, 2005

I am so tired of unqualified non-URM's assuming that an unqualified URM took their spot somewhere. My question is this: why is that a lot of non-urms (no particular ones) always assume that underrepresented minorities who are unqualified are taking their spots. I mean have they ever taken a history class in this country? Do people ever think that Affirmative action helps qualified URMs to stand a chance at getting into schools that have snobbed them because of the color of their skin in the past. It makes me so mad when I keep having my non URM colleagues make stupid comments over and over again. One even had the audacity to tell me that he knew that I was unqualified for my undergrad school and when I told him what I scored on the SATs and how he could verify it with the College Board his jaw dropped. Yes, believe it or not most of us URMs if not all who get into schools that traditionally look down on us are yes QUALIFIED (at least I think adcoms are not stupid and definitely do not want their schools reputations to be tainted)!!

Severus · May 31, 2005

if URMs are so qualified, just have em compete normally. wait-if they dont get in its racism, right?

nne97080 · May 31, 2005

Severus said:
if URMs are so qualified, just have em compete normally. wait-if they dont get in its racism, right?

Ok so how may schools are currently affirmative action schools and what are the stats for URM? Most schools are not any more and # of urms whom by the way are qualified continue to increase. What do you mean by compete normally. How normal is America when it comes to the issue of race? When has America been fair to people who are of color?

Severus · May 31, 2005

nne97080 said:
Ok so how may schools are currently affirmative action schools and what are the stats for URM? Most schools are not any more and # of urms whom by the way are qualified continue to increase.

you right. There are no preferences for minorities. My bad.

Dr.Pdizzle · May 31, 2005

nne97080 said:
Ok so how may schools are currently affirmative action schools and what are the stats for URM? Most schools are not any more and # of urms whom by the way are qualified continue to increase. What do you mean by compete normally. How normal is America when it comes to the issue of race? When has America been fair to people who are of color?

I tried to get an answer to this earlier and no one really seemed to know. A lot think that schools stress "diversity" in terms of location, gender, race, ethnic, and cultural backgrounds, not just race...but no one really has any significant evidence to verify this.

As to what extent URM are given an advantage? I think thats the "behind the scenes" stuff that no one really knows and anyone stating they know is just merely speculating (unless they are indeed an adcom). That is of course, unless that school was forced to release its process on how it selects students (see: University of Michigan) then and only then will we know the extent that URM are given over the majority.

On a personal sidenote, I'm white, but if I were black, I would have a similar mentality and would be upset that if someone heard that I got accepted into a medical school they might think I got in just because of my race, which, I know would be false because I have earned every one of my grades to date regardless of the color of my skin.

That being said, I wouldn't want any extra hand outs because I wouldn't want the stigma that comes with it. Sort of like my dad being a doctor, I know when I tell people this they naturally assume that I have it made and haven't had to work for anything to get where I am, which is completely false.

Eh, AA, URM debates, when will the fun ever end

nne97080 · May 31, 2005

Dr.Pdizzle said:
I tried to get an answer to this earlier and no one really seemed to know. A lot think that schools stress "diversity" in terms of location, gender, race, ethnic, and cultural backgrounds, not just race...but no one really has any significant evidence to verify this.

As to what extent URM are given an advantage? I think thats the "behind the scenes" stuff that no one really knows and anyone stating they know is just merely speculating (unless they are indeed an adcom). That is of course, unless that school was forced to release its process on how it selects students (see: University of Michigan) then and only then will we know the extent that URM are given over the majority.

On a personal sidenote, I'm white, but if I were black, I would have a similar mentality and would be upset that if someone heard that I got accepted into a medical school they might think I got in just because of my race, which, I know would be false because I have earned every one of my grades to date regardless of the color of my skin.

That being said, I wouldn't want any extra hand outs because I wouldn't want the stigma that comes with it. Sort of like my dad being a doctor, I know when I tell people this they naturally assume that I have it made and haven't had to work for anything to get where I am, which is completely false.

Eh, AA, URM debates, when will the fun ever end

Right!. I would hope soon but people always always wanna stress that URM's are unqualified which really is not cool and I thinks its terrible because I really envision a world where non-urm colleagues would continually doubt the ability of their urm counterparts especially in caring for patients. I think this would be really disastrous especially in the whole debate about closing the gaps in the health disparities that exist in this country.

sga814 · May 31, 2005

Hey now- whether or not you're "qualified" to get into college/ med school, I'm pretty sure there is no affirmative action on the USMLE. So if you successfully pass that test, you're good enough to be a doctor in my book.

Also, even if it may be easier for URM students to get in, their numbers are so small compared to non-URM students, that it's really not worth arguing about.

cunam_amoris · May 31, 2005

Yes, unqualified and lesser-qualified URMs do take spots from qualified non-URMs. What is difficult to understand about the word "unqualified?" While certainly not all URM accepted are unqualified, some are. It is absurd to accept anyone into any college/school based on anything other than merit and qualifications.
Affirmative Action = Racism.

nne97080 · May 31, 2005

cunam_amoris said:
Yes, unqualified and lesser-qualified URMs do take spots from qualified non-URMs. What is difficult to understand about the word "unqualified?" While certainly not all URM accepted are unqualified, some are. It is absurd to accept anyone into any college/school based on anything other than merit and qualifications.
Affirmative Action = Racism.

Ok so where are the qualification guidelines for med schools. Again last time I checked I do not remember seeing any criteria for acceptance qualifications for any of the med schools. So what does qualified mean since you are an expert on the subject. Are you judging qualifications based on mcats or gpas or both for med school admissions and do you have access to the individual profiles of such unqualified URMs you mentioned? What made them unqualified?

thebiz98 · May 31, 2005

Don't we already have a million of these threads.
Seriously, you could save a lot of time by just searching and finding the same tired, uninspired arguments made by the ghosts of SDN past. Search on!

DoctaJay · May 31, 2005

The whole issue of someone taking anothers spot is kind of stupid. If a school decdies that they will take in a certain % of minorities, those are the spots reserved for the minorities. The rest of the spots are left for you all. So the spot you need to be worried about is the spot that was reserved for non-URMs. Rather than crying, work your but off and get in, like many other non-URMs.

As longs as racism exists, schools should seek to increase 'diversity'. I'm 19 years old, born in 1985. My mom is 40 something, born in 1958, in Brooklyn, New York. Do you know that if she was born in Maryland, just 4 hours down the east coast, she could have only be born in one Hospital, because the other hospitals didn't deliver black babies? My friends, that was not that long ago. Lets not be ignorant and suppose that even qualified URMs would get into medical school if without a schools push for diversity.

I thnk URMs should no longer respond to these affirmative action threads. Here is what my mentor did (a current black surgery resident, who attended Northwestern SOM). He was one of 3 black people in his whole class, and of course at a prestigious school like Northwestern, there were many pricks like you all looking down on them, supposing they got in on lesser stats. My mentor didn't really sweat this; what did he do? He did his thing and graduated 3rd in his class. What I'm saying fellow URMs, is to not get caught up in these senseless conversations. Kill these undercover facists with action rather than arguing with them. When you are consistantly getting High Passes on tests, and they are just getting passes, they will eventually have to swallow their pride and realize we can compete equally. As is such, I won't be replying to any more of these stupid threads. Kill the argument with stellar academic performance.

Orth2006 · May 31, 2005

cunam_amoris said:
Yes, unqualified and lesser-qualified URMs do take spots from qualified non-URMs. What is difficult to understand about the word "unqualified?" While certainly not all URM accepted are unqualified, some are. It is absurd to accept anyone into any college/school based on anything other than merit and qualifications.
Affirmative Action = Racism.

This DEBATE AGAIN??

Perhaps we should look for the URM drop out rate from med school if there is one. If someone is unqualified in a profession sooner or later their weakness will be exposed. Medicine is definetly not for the unqualified. So unless someone can provide statistical data that shows the dropout rate of URMs to be higher than non-URMs, then all those complaining about unqualified URMs taking their spots should SHUT the H*** UP.

Furthermore there are b/w 10 -15 times more non_URMs admitted into med school each year than URMs. For professions like medicine merit and qualification are not enough. If things are always as simple as your GPA or MCAT score then perhaps the senate will not be at deadlock to approve appointees to the supreme court. Everything is not about grades, merit or qualification.

Doctors are still human. So a caucasian doctor is more likely to connect better with patients of his race than another race. Same is true for URMs. A hispanic/black doctor may not have a problem going into the rural areas that are predominately URM to practice. The medical profession indeed needs more diversity. So when schools look at URMs, thats what they are trying to do.

The only people complaining are non_URMs who couldn't make it in and they blame URMs for their misfortune. The truth is the world will not hurt much without another non-URM doctor. On the other hand we need more URM doctors. Given that choice schools are more likely to admitt the URM of comparable stats than the non-URM. Remember the ratio of non_URMs to URMs admitted is almost 15 to 1.

Rzarecta · May 31, 2005

What I really love is listening to stupid people say things like "Slavery ended over 150 years ago, Black people have had all that time." Rrrright, do all the haters on this board even know what Black people were treated like 40-50 years ago?!? Imagine the stigma being Black has in our society, and thus how hard it must be to live as a Black person. Many of you jerks even attribute the success of minorities simply to the fact that they were "URMs." Honestly, the only people that complain about this are those who are already only mediocre applicants at best.

nebrfan · May 31, 2005

doctajay said:
If a school decdies that they will take in a certain % of minorities, those are the spots reserved for the minorities. The rest of the spots are left for you all.

Just a side note...Setting aside a specific number/percentage of seats for minorities would be illegal....See Regents of U of California v. Bakke, Grutter v. Bollinger, and Gratz v. Bollinger. The Supreme Court ruled that race can play a factor in admission decisions because seeking diversity is in the interest of the state. However, specific seats or arbitrary points can not be assigned to minority applicants. The Court also stated that "Race-conscious admissions policies must be limited in time."

Braveheart · May 31, 2005

(Not another AA thread)

I dont know whats all the fuss with URM getting into medical school when they make only a few spots. Complaining about few spots is stupid, it feels like con-AA ppl want less URM in medicine (right lets have fewer URM in medicine). There are plenty unqualified people that get into medical that arent URM.

nne97080 · May 31, 2005

doctajay said:
The whole issue of someone taking anothers spot is kind of stupid. If a school decdies that they will take in a certain % of minorities, those are the spots reserved for the minorities. The rest of the spots are left for you all. So the spot you need to be worried about is the spot that was reserved for non-URMs. Rather than crying, work your but off and get in, like many other non-URMs.

As longs as racism exists, schools should seek to increase 'diversity'. I'm 19 years old, born in 1985. My mom is 40 something, born in 1958, in Brooklyn, New York. Do you know that if she was born in Maryland, just 4 hours down the east coast, she could have only be born in one Hospital, because the other hospitals didn't deliver black babies? My friends, that was not that long ago. Lets not be ignorant and suppose that even qualified URMs would get into medical school if without a schools push for diversity.

I thnk URMs should no longer respond to these affirmative action threads. Here is what my mentor did (a current black surgery resident, who attended Northwestern SOM). He was one of 3 black people in his whole class, and of course at a prestigious school like Northwestern, there were many pricks like you all looking down on them, supposing they got in on lesser stats. My mentor didn't really sweat this; what did he do? He did his thing and graduated 3rd in his class. What I'm saying fellow URMs, is to not get caught up in these senseless conversations. Kill these undercover facists with action rather than arguing with them. When you are consistantly getting High Passes on tests, and they are just getting passes, they will eventually have to swallow their pride and realize we can compete equally. As is such, I won't be replying to any more of these stupid threads. Kill the argument with stellar academic performance.

Seriously. You are right we need to start ignoring ignorance. I just got mad 'cause I was thinking that people were smarter but still I still see the same ol' ignorance every time one of these ignorant people complain about not getting into medical school and blaming it on a urm. As if I or one of my other URM colleagues who worked their butts off despite institutionalized opression in schools you' ve domintated for years told to sleep in orgo or biochem. :laugh:

aragonh · May 31, 2005

whats a URM??

EDIT: Never mind. I figured it out. I never-ever heard this phrase/initial b4

I also dislike this term. It makes it sound like a WMD!!!

Hoberto · May 31, 2005

I think med schools need to encourage URMs to apply and should definitely work to ensure that URMs are accepted and have the opportunity to become doctors.

I think the issue people have with affirmative action and other similar programs is based on the MCAT and GPA numbers of those who matriculate. The URM students average below their non-URM peers.** This doesn't mean that ALL URM students have lower GPAs and MCATs nor does it mean that ALL non-URMs have higher MCATs and GPAs. This difference in numbers does not mean that one person is more or less qualified. As has been mentioned, schools do not use numbers alone to accept or deny applicants. We don't know how the volunteering, LORs, personal statement and other things factor into the decisions. All we do know is the numbers and I think those numbers can be misleading.

I think we need to figure out WHY there is a discrepancy in the numbers. One possible reason is that many non-URMs have advantages in their education from pre-school through college that many URMs do not. Perhaps this translates to lower numbers for the URMs. I'm sure there are many more possible reasons to explain this situation. Rather than complain about it we should should seek to understand it.

**You can see these statistics for yourself at: http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2004/mcatgparaceeth.htm

LadyJubilee8_18 · May 31, 2005

Severus said:
if URMs are so qualified, just have em compete normally. wait-if they dont get in its racism, right?

The reason why schools are trying to recruit URM students is because we are under represented in med school. Blacks and Hispanics are around 11-12% of the population but 5-6% of the med school matriculates. Asians are 4-6% of the US population but around 20% of the med school matriculates. The number of White matriculates is about proportional to the number of Whites in the US population. People concentrate so much on the minority part that they forget all about the Under Represented part. Since the final goal of training physicians is to serve the population, med schools want there to be a more even mix of students.

I am also sick and tired of people assuming URM are under qualified. My stats are better than many non-URM students and I know the same is true for many of my URM pre-med friends. I have had all kinds of stupid comments thrown my way by ignorant, pretentious premeds of different ethnic backgrounds. They assume I am under qualified and when I tell them my stats they say, "Oh, well that's because you are part white right?" (My grandma is French) As if the white in me just jumps right out whenever I'm taking a test or doing an assignment. It really is infuriating and I would like those who think URM are "taking their spots" to just shut the hell up and get the facts straight. If you want a better chance of getting in to med school, tell all those other members of your ethnic group to stop being so damn ambitious so that you will become under represented also. Otherwise, just leave us alone.

dpgc21 · May 31, 2005

If people are tired of URMs getting a little preference then there needs to be an equal playing field. Starting from junior high school on. I grew up in east Oakland and I went to some of the worst schools known to man. I gave it my all and worked my ass off to get to UC Berkley. I studied Physiology and Political theory and graduated with a pretty good GPA, but my first couple years was a tremndous adjustment period. I do blame the condition of my high school for that. But people complain about URMs being non qualified or what not, then make all things even. What about the MCAT, is that really a good indicator of how well an individual will do in med school? look at the break down by race and really judge for your self what that test really means.

Look I do not know any URM who thinks just because their skin color is darker then others that it is a guaranteed ticket to medical school. if this was the case our numbers would be more like 50% rather than 8%. My friend goes to UCSD and he is the only black person in his class, and he hates it because they assume he is an AA student.

All I am saying is if you have never walked in the shoes of a person you have absolutely no right to judge.

deuist · May 31, 2005

doctajay said:
The whole issue of someone taking anothers spot is kind of stupid. If a school decdies that they will take in a certain % of minorities, those are the spots reserved for the minorities.

Actually, schools cannot set aside a certain percentage of spots for minorities. Doing so sets up a quota system and is illegal. Universities can, however, push for affirmative action in boosting enrollment of URM's.

Are far as the OP's question of which schools still promote AA, I know for sure that Vanderbilt, Tufts, and Baylor do. All them wanted me to meet with the director of minority enrollment when I interviewed (I'm part Native American).

For anyone else on this board that doesn't believe that affirmative action happens, just look at the AAMC statistics.

Finally, for the people that believe that spots are not necessarily given up for the sake of increasing minority enrollment, just keep in mind that each school has a set number of spots for incoming students. Once it hits that limit, it cannot accept anyone else. For each person that gets a thick envelope, about 9 more get a thin one. Those latter people are kept out of school for the sake of the one who was accepted. Further, given that minorities have a higher drop-out rate than non-minorities, those spots are forever lost to people who would have graciously taken those spots.

Please don't flame me as a troll; I'm just stating the facts. I do realize that Blacks and Hispanics have gotten a raw deal in this country, but I let the numbers speak for themselves.

Dr.Pdizzle · May 31, 2005

deuist said:
Finally, for the people that believe that spots are not necessarily given up for the sake of increasing minority enrollment, just keep in mind that each school has a set number of spots for incoming students. Once it hits that limit, it cannot accept anyone else. For each person that gets a thick envelope, about 9 more get a thin one. Those latter people are kept out of school for the sake of the one who was accepted. Further, given that minorities have a higher drop-out rate than non-minorities, those spots are forever lost to people who would have graciously taken those spots.

I think you hit the nail on the head with that point deuist. Like I mentioned earlier, if I were black and applying to medical schools, I wouldn't want lower standards because I want people to know that I got accepted because I deserved to be, not because adcoms lowered the bar for me. By the time we're applying to medical schools, we've all had as "equal" of an education as possible, we've all gone through an undergrad program through a college/university.

On a side note, there are a lot of URM who do deserve to be and are in medical school. It's the percentage, albeit small, that got in because standards were lowered that taint the process and create a stigma.

PS: http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2004/mcatgparaceeth.htm
Wow, I just looked at those stats and they are startling. I didn't realize the discrepancies between an URM matriculant and whites were so large

americanangel · May 31, 2005

What I don't understand is if we want to be fair to both URM and non-URM, why don't we just take race, ethnicities, religion, culture, etc out of the mix? If medical schools are only looking for qualified applicants, why does an individuals race has to be involved? If we wanted to make this fair to both parties, why not forget about race and even sex for that matter....I had the safe feeling on college applications and I have the same feelings for medical school applications, race, ethnicities, religion, or sex should not be a factor and therefore no one should qualify as a URM.

curandero · May 31, 2005

americanangel said:
I have the same feelings for medical school applications, race, ethnicities, religion, or sex should not be a factor and therefore no one should qualify as a URM.

URM maybe not, disadvantaged definitly. People who come from disadvantaged backgrounds (which includes the places and conditions they grew up in) and are able to succeed in school, enough to where they are qualified enough to enter medical school should be given preference or at minimum a second look by the admissions commitiee. Personally I feel this way about it, I place the person who has had every opportunity, does nothing but go to school and minimal volunteer work, gets a 4.0 gpa and a 40 on their MCAT, equal to the person who grew up disadvantaged and has a family to raise or whatever else, goes to school and volunteers in the community, gets a 3.2 gpa and a 27 on their MCAT. Just my opinion.

aragonh · May 31, 2005

Dr.Pdizzle said:
PS: http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2004/mcatgparaceeth.htm
Wow, I just looked at those stats and they are startling. I didn't realize the discrepancies between an URM matriculant and whites were so large

I've seen that chart before. They forgot to adjust for parents income level (for socio-economic background), MCAT prep courses (b/c it makes a difference), as well as what school the students attended (to account for grade inflation).

Also, isnt URTV a redundant word??

americanangel · May 31, 2005

curandero said:
URM maybe not, disadvantaged definitly. People who come from disadvantaged backgrounds (which includes the places and conditions they grew up in) and are able to succeed in school, enough to where they are qualified enough to enter medical school should be given preference or at minimum a second look by the admissions commitiee. Personally I feel this way about it, I place the person who has had every opportunity, does nothing but go to school and minimal volunteer work, gets a 4.0 gpa and a 40 on their MCAT, equal to the person who grew up disadvantaged and has a family to raise or whatever else, goes to school and volunteers in the community, gets a 3.2 gpa and a 27 on their MCAT. Just my opinion.

I should have worded my statement a bit differently...I don't beleive that race, creed, sex, etc should be a factor in admission...But I do beleive that some people are at a disadvantage because of life circumstances (not because of race, etc) and should be given a closer look in admisssions.

USArmyDoc · May 31, 2005

There are more than enough QUALIFIED URM's to fill the spots in medical schools. Although, I am sure some get in for the wrong reasons but that happens with a lot of people, BLACK OR WHITE.

Orth2006 · May 31, 2005

WHats the big deal anyways? WHy are some non-URMs crying foul because few URMS get admitted? If its all about qualification and merit then perhaps we should question President Bush's capacity to be president. Afterall he is a C student. There are several A students in Washington why arent they president. It is just so dumb to think that everything is about grades.

45408 · May 31, 2005

dpgc21 said:
What about the MCAT, is that really a good indicator of how well an individual will do in med school? look at the break down by race and really judge for your self what that test really means.

It has a strong correlation with your success in med school, yes. What's your point?

dpgc21 · May 31, 2005

My point is that there is an ethnic bias.

skypilot · May 31, 2005

Now that I am in med school I realize that I don't care how you got in I have a lot of respect for anyone who can slog through studying all day every day, pass all their classes, pass all three steps of the USMLE and graduate from med school.

Plenty of students drop out. It is about drive and determination not a score on the MCAT after taking a Kaplan course. If you demonstrate that committment to the Adcom through your essays and activities they probably will accept you. If you have it then nothing is going to stop you from getting in either even if you have to move across the country, or go to a lesser ranked school god forbid.

riceman04 · May 31, 2005

cunam_amoris said:
Yes, unqualified and lesser-qualified URMs do take spots from qualified non-URMs. What is difficult to understand about the word "unqualified?" While certainly not all URM accepted are unqualified, some are. It is absurd to accept anyone into any college/school based on anything other than merit and qualifications.
Affirmative Action = Racism.

ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.............................kentucky=slave state, bush supporter, NRA financer, etc..........

deuist · May 31, 2005

americanangel said:
What I don't understand is if we want to be fair to both URM and non-URM, why don't we just take race, ethnicities, religion, culture, etc out of the mix? If medical schools are only looking for qualified applicants, why does an individuals race has to be involved?

The reasoning behind lowering admissions standards for and aggressively recruiting minorities is because many patients like to visit physicians that are the same race that they are. Given that there are very few Black doctors, and even fewer Hispanic doctors, medical schools are trying to reverse the discrepancy between ethnic percentages among patients and ethnic percentages among health care providers. Whether or not you or I agree with affirmative action, the truth is that it provides a benefit for the patient.

deuist · May 31, 2005

Orth2006 said:
WHats the big deal anyways? WHy are some non-URMs crying foul because few URMS get admitted? If its all about qualification and merit then perhaps we should question President Bush's capacity to be president. Afterall he is a C student. There are several A students in Washington why arent they president. It is just so dumb to think that everything is about grades.

I once heard that President Bush wants to see affirmative action abolished. Instead of accepting applicants based on race, he wants universities to consider the student's financial backing---the same way he got into Harvard with a C-average.

45408 · Jun 1, 2005

dpgc21 said:
My point is that there is an ethnic bias.

A disparity in scores between two races doesn't mean that the test itself was biased towards that race. There's a lot of socioeconomic factors that lead up to taking the actual test that can't really be controlled for.

Severus · Jun 1, 2005

are you guys saying all urms are also poor and all the crakahs are rich? or do adcoms also adjust for poor whites? Or you just dont care about poor whites? Cuz that socioeconomic argument doesnt fly.

Severus · Jun 1, 2005

deuist said:
The reasoning behind lowering admissions standards for and aggressively recruiting minorities is because many patients like to visit physicians that are the same race that they are.

correct me if Im wrong, but you'd probably get pretty angry if whites said they only wanted to see white doctors. Right? :laugh:

LadyJubilee8_18 · Jun 1, 2005

deuist said:
Further, given that minorities have a higher drop-out rate than non-minorities, those spots are forever lost to people who would have graciously taken those spots.

Remember that there are fewer minority students in medical school than other students. Given this, the drop out rate for minority students seems higher.

For example: Say a class at a US med school has three minority students and one hundred "majority" (for lack of a better term) students. If one minority student drops out, then the minority drop out rate is 33% but if one "majority" student drops out, the majority drop out rate is 1%. Since each minority student counts for a bigger percentage of the minority student population, the statistics are a little misleading.

Click to expand...

OrthoFixation · Jun 1, 2005

Severus said:
are you guys saying all urms are also poor and all the crakahs are rich?/QUOTE]

LMAO

NPursuit · Jun 1, 2005

riceman04 said:
ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.............................kentucky=slave state, bush supporter, NRA financer, etc..........

This may be the most irrelevant post I have ever seen on this forum.

I don't even need to point out why.

dpgc21 · Jun 1, 2005

NPursuit said:
This may be the most irrelevant post I have ever seen on this forum.

Did you really think this garbage would fly?

Gee, I'm a Californian, so I must be a liberal pot-smoking, gun control nut, right? [Note avatar]

I really hope you haven't applied to any schools on the east coast. New York was a slave state, too. Indeed, there were slaves in Manhattan. So was New Jersey. And the list goes on, I promise you. It would be terrible to be stuck in school with slavery supporters, wouldn't it? Maybe you should cross off private schools from your list, too. I mean, if someone went to Harvard from Kentucky, I bet they're a supporter of slavery. It would be unthinkable to go to a school like that!

Read his whole post he was responding to what the other guy said. The other guy said AA=racism. Don't be so quick to judge. read his post and what he was responding to.

NPursuit · Jun 1, 2005

dpgc21 said:
Read his whole post he was responding to what the other guy said. The other guy said AA=racism. Don't be so quick to judge. read his post and what he was responding to.

That doesn't make it any less irrelevant. What does Kentucky have anything to do with affirmative action?

What if I noticed a guy was black, so I just assumed he dropped out of high school, had gold teeth, and played basketball? That's exactly what this guy was saying about people from Kentucky, only he thought he could get away with making a hate-laced and ridiculously simplistic statement like that. And here you are defending him.

What relevance does someone's location even have in the question of whether AA is justified or not?

As for the statement in question, AA is racism by definition. Even our courts have agreed to that much. The question is whether the ends justify the means, and schools have been able to argue that they do. They haven't been able to get away with simplistic quotas, and hence race has been made a nebulous though significant factor in the admissions decision. If we're going to talk about AA, let's be honest: it IS racism. We just presently happen to agree that it is racism in the best interest of society, medicine, and the academic environment.

Severus · Jun 1, 2005

NPursuit said:
What if I noticed a guy was black, so I just assumed he dropped out of high school, had gold teeth, and played basketball? That's exactly what this guy was saying about people from Kentucky, only he thought he could get away with making a hate-laced and ridiculously simplistic statement like that. And here you are defending him.

nobody ever accussed AA supporters of being consistent.

Severus · Jun 1, 2005

NPursuit said:
We just presently happen to agree that it is racism in the best interest of society, medicine, and the academic environment.

well, we dont. the adcoms do. its not like there was a vote or anything.

Psycho Doctor · Jun 1, 2005

Severus said:
are you guys saying all urms are also poor and all the crakahs are rich? or do adcoms also adjust for poor whites? Or you just dont care about poor whites? Cuz that socioeconomic argument doesnt fly.

well that's the whole point...they generally don't; the system had good intentions but is totally flawed

Severus · Jun 1, 2005

CAPTAIN KOONS · Jun 1, 2005

dpgc21 said:
If people are tired of URMs getting a little preference then there needs to be an equal playing field. Starting from junior high school on. I grew up in east Oakland and I went to some of the worst schools known to man. I gave it my all and worked my ass off to get to UC Berkley. I studied Physiology and Political theory and graduated with a pretty good GPA, but my first couple years was a tremndous adjustment period. I do blame the condition of my high school for that. But people complain about URMs being non qualified or what not, then make all things even. What about the MCAT, is that really a good indicator of how well an individual will do in med school? look at the break down by race and really judge for your self what that test really means.

Look I do not know any URM who thinks just because their skin color is darker then others that it is a guaranteed ticket to medical school. if this was the case our numbers would be more like 50% rather than 8%. My friend goes to UCSD and he is the only black person in his class, and he hates it because they assume he is an AA student.

All I am saying is if you have never walked in the shoes of a person you have absolutely no right to judge.

I feel bad for qualified URM because they will always be looked at as an AA applicant. I do believe more URM are needed in the health care profession but lowering the standards is not the answer. Maybe more funding for city schools or some kind of prep school. When I applied to West Point I didnt have the SAT score to get in. However, I was accepted under the agreement I would go to a one year prepartory school to bolster my application.

Psycho Doctor · Jun 1, 2005

CAPTAIN KOONS said:
I feel bad for qualified URM because they will always be looked at as an AA applicant. I do believe more URM are needed in the health care profession but lowering the standards is not the answer. Maybe more funding for city schools or some kind of prep school. When I applied to West Point I didnt have the SAT score to get in. However, I was accepted under the agreement I would go to a one year prepartory school to bolster my application.

well yes, they should fix the educational system before it becomes a problem that forces them to make exceptions far too late in the process. The gov't needs to intercede far earlier in the process. Assign good teachers to poor districts, appropriate money to poor inner city schools (of all races), assure ALL students receive a good education and then everyone can take advantage of higher education on a level playing field.

sven · Jun 1, 2005

Severus said:
correct me if Im wrong, but you'd probably get pretty angry if whites said they only wanted to see white doctors. Right?

It's really not all about minority patients preferring to see minority doctors, though I'm sure that some do. Minority physicians generally demonstrate higher commitment to practicing in traditionally underserved minority communities than do non-minority physicians. By not having some sort of preference in the admissions process we'd be worsening long-standing inequalities and health disparities. If you're a non-urm candidate who feels wronged by the process, perhaps you should be thinking about how you as a future physician will work to rectify these problems so that we don't need a system like this. Whatever you do, don't b*tch now and then serve a limited and priviledged patient demographic in the future.

Orth2006 · Jun 1, 2005

deuist said:
Further, given that minorities have a higher drop-out rate than non-minorities, those spots are forever lost to people who would have graciously taken those spots.

The stats on the link you posted just shows Applicants, Matriculants and Graduate MCAT scores. It says nothing about dropout rate of URMs. Where are you getting the information that the dropout rate of URMs is higher than non-URM? I find that hard to believe because the ratio of non-URMs to URMs in med school is 10 to 1. So if the dropout rate of URMs is higher then certainly there wont be any URMs left in med school.

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