You thought we have it bad. Check this out

albaniandoc · May 28, 2006

jojocola · May 28, 2006

omg.. thats so crazy. india is the real "underserved" population

socal1015 · May 28, 2006

It's amazing to see the strife and split in the society because of the caste system. I can almost relate it to the affirmative action requirements that we have here in the US for URMs. I think that certain people have a predisposed disadvantage outside of their control that naturally makes them less competitive than others in pursuit of professional careers. It is only fair that this is taken into account by these institutions or else it will result in an unending spiral of backwardness in these people. This is especially true for a country like India because of the high level of competitiveness (much higher than here in the US) in their schools and job markets.

akinf · May 28, 2006

jojocola said:
omg.. thats so crazy. india is the real "underserved" population

As opposed to what? Africa? Latin America? Southern United States? Underserved is underserved where ever it may be.

Jacks Mannequin · May 28, 2006

Ha, that's my peoples. Represent. Affirmative action, Indian caste-system style.

Centinel · May 28, 2006

OK, so this rich upper-caste med student tried to immolate himself because he's pissed that normal people will be allowed to become doctors now?

That'll really help when it comes time to treating his lower-caste patients:
Lower-caste: "Hey, what are those burn marks from, doc?"
Douche: "Oh, they're from when I was protesting higher quotas of lower caste students into medicine."
LC: "Hmm, my son was trying to become a doctor but he didn't quite make it."
Douche: "

"

Houseness · May 28, 2006

Some of you have a real misunderstanding of what's going on in India. Already, there were seats reserved for lower caste people. The caste system is stupid and it is sad that it still permeates society in India. Whoever made the affirmative action analogy is absolutely correct. This is a form of affirmative action geared towards those with less income and less opportunity (generally lower caste people)

But here's the kicker. Whatever you perceive as the competitiveness of our admissions process, it's 100 times worse in India. Admission is based solely on tests. THese kids go around the country taking admissions tests that would make the MCAT look like a joke for many different schools (hence many different tests) and only the top 5-10% are given admission nationally. NOW, they're expanding the number of seats for lower caste people who will score lower on the tests and all these students who scored higher will be denied admission in favor of less qualified applicants (i.e. lower test scores, other things dont really matter because med school is right after high school, they don't exactly have the opportunity to do ECs and research, etc).

It's not about discrimination and being pissed that lower caste people will be doctors. It's about adding an unneccessary thing into an already unbelievably and outrageously competitive system of admission.

Dr.Acula · May 28, 2006

Houseness said:
Some of you have a real misunderstanding of what's going on in India. Already, there were seats reserved for lower caste people. The caste system is stupid and it is sad that it still permeates society in India. Whoever made the affirmative action analogy is absolutely correct. This is a form of affirmative action geared towards those with less income and less opportunity (generally lower caste people)

But here's the kicker. Whatever you perceive as the competitiveness of our admissions process, it's 100 times worse in India. Admission is based solely on tests. THese kids go around the country taking admissions tests that would make the MCAT look like a joke for many different schools (hence many different tests) and only the top 5-10% are given admission nationally. NOW, they're expanding the number of seats for lower caste people who will score lower on the tests and all these students who scored higher will be denied admission in favor of less qualified applicants (i.e. lower test scores, other things dont really matter because med school is right after high school, they don't exactly have the opportunity to do ECs and research, etc).

It's not about discrimination and being pissed that lower caste people will be doctors. It's about adding an unneccessary thing into an already unbelievably and outrageously competitive system of admission.

While I respect your opinion, i whole heartedly disagree with you. The caste system is NOTHING like affirmative action. The caste system in Inida is not an obstacle (like being black) but a barrier. Moreover, the importance of education and family is light years more important in India than most western countries. yes, things are more competitive there, but thats because the level of student is much greater. There is a reason why students that spend 12 hours taking a test to get into a prestigous school like IIT often have Harvard or Yale as their "safety school" in med school analogy i would say IIT = top tier school , and Harvard/Yale = Carribean (maybe not this bad, but atleast Drexel, etc.) This same mentality of studiousness and family are still enstilled in many Indian in the U.S. The same competitiveness and family pressure is here as well. Just ask any Indian. Here is a quick example:
Indian Kid: Hey mom! I got a 99 in my advanced nuclear physics class!
Mom: Good job! I'm so proud of you! Why didn't you get a 100?
Anyway, I kinda rambled far from my point. Yes it is uber-competitive there, but it needs to be to facilitate the level of student there.

Centinel · May 28, 2006

Acula, he wasn't saying that the caste system was like affirmative action. He was pointing out that there was already an affirmative action system in place for the lower castes.

At any rate, it is reprehensible that the upper castes have such disdain for the lower castes. It is wrong. That is all.

rajad10 · May 28, 2006

Dr.Acula said:
While I respect your opinion, i whole heartedly disagree with you. The caste system is NOTHING like affirmative action. The caste system in Inida is not an obstacle (like being black) but a barrier. Moreover, the importance of education and family is light years more important in India than most western countries. yes, things are more competitive there, but thats because the level of student is much greater. There is a reason why students that spend 12 hours taking a test to get into a prestigous school like IIT often have Harvard or Yale as their "safety school" in med school analogy i would say IIT = top tier school , and Harvard/Yale = Carribean (maybe not this bad, but atleast Drexel, etc.) This same mentality of studiousness and family are still enstilled in many Indian in the U.S. The same competitiveness and family pressure is here as well. Just ask any Indian. Here is a quick example:
Indian Kid: Hey mom! I got a 99 in my advanced nuclear physics class!
Mom: Good job! I'm so proud of you! Why didn't you get a 100?
Anyway, I kinda rambled far from my point. Yes it is uber-competitive there, but it needs to be to facilitate the level of student there.

acula is 100% correct. i was born in india and education is THE MOST important thing for someone growing up. even when i moved here (US), my parents have the same expectations of me, and yes, i have similar conversations with my mom about grades like above about 2-3 percentage points in the 90's, although not too much anymore because i've changed her. in india, class ranking is also of great importance which is one of the primary reasons for the level of competition

Barts · May 28, 2006

Dr.Acula said:
The caste system in Inida is not an obstacle (like being black) but a barrier.

Acula, kind of a generalized statement don't ya think? I would argue that economic status (poor/poverty) is an obstacle just as much as any race is. And economic status is not necessarily bound to any particular race.

Freakedout · May 28, 2006

Its funny to see how many of you have opinions about what is going on in India, YET from reading your posts NONE of you really know what is even going on there.

Barts · May 28, 2006

Forget it--I didn't see a delete option though. So just edited this instead.

calvinandhobbes · May 28, 2006

talk about a flame war...just kidding, that was insensitive and in bad taste.

Barts · May 28, 2006

calvinandhobbes said:
talk about a flame war...just kidding, that was insensitive

Oh...that's just not nice. Shame on you!

We still love you though

_ian · May 28, 2006

Freakedout said:
Its funny to see how many of you have opinions about what is going on in India, YET from reading your posts NONE of you really know what is even going on there.

Well, of course. Westerners find the caste system pretty ridiculous. We've got socioeconomic rifts, but we don't enforce them through legal means, so we can just put our fingers in our ears and go "LALALALALA," pretend affirmative action is actually a solution, and go on about how backwards India must be for having clear-cut barriers between classes.

I don't agree with the Indian caste system either, but it's part of a culture different enough from my own I can't even try to explain how things could be more fair. You can't just go bulldoze it and hope things realign the way we think it should be.

AppleseedCast · May 28, 2006

best post ever

_ian said:
Well, of course. Westerners find the caste system pretty ridiculous. We've got socioeconomic rifts, but we don't enforce them through legal means, so we can just put our fingers in our ears and go "LALALALALA," pretend affirmative action is actually a solution, and go on about how backwards India must be for having clear-cut barriers between classes.

I don't agree with the Indian caste system either, but it's part of a culture different enough from my own I can't even try to explain how things could be more fair. You can't just go bulldoze it and hope things realign the way we think it should be.

Barts · May 28, 2006

AppleseedCast said:
best post ever

I liked it too! But you beat me to telling the poster that it was a great post..damn you!

Dr.Acula · May 28, 2006

Dr.Acula said:
The caste system in Inida is not an obstacle (like being black) but a barrier.

I'm sorry if i offended anyone by this, it was not my intention. I was trying to prove my point about the difference between making seats available to people of lower caste as opposed to affirmative action and how IMHO it is different.

sweetkc · May 28, 2006

onmywayRN said:
Med student burns self in protest

yay more cowbells!! =D yay for your avatar! =D

Centinel · May 28, 2006

I love how people here are defending the caste system. Really, you moral relativists are doing an incredible job. Keep it up.

And because it's evidently not abundantly clear, I don't mean my criticism of the caste system to somehow be interpreted as a blind embrace of the flawed system we have in the United States.

Freakedout · May 28, 2006

Centinel said:
I love how people here are defending the caste system. Really, you moral relativists are doing an incredible job. Keep it up..

Well Whatever helps you sleep at night

Heyeon · May 28, 2006

Centinel said:
OK, so this rich upper-caste med student tried to immolate himself because he's pissed that normal people will be allowed to become doctors now?

That'll really help when it comes time to treating his lower-caste patients:
Lower-caste: "Hey, what are those burn marks from, doc?"
Douche: "Oh, they're from when I was protesting higher quotas of lower caste students into medicine."
LC: "Hmm, my son was trying to become a doctor but he didn't quite make it."
Douche: " "

Misunderstanding of the whole matter..The opposition is not bcoz he is pissed that normal ppl will be allowed to be docs..its bcoz the govt is reserving seats for ppl whose community has/is facing discrimination..translating it to US environ, its like mexican/black being in minority would get into med school wid a 20 on mcat while a white would not be rejected with a 32 just bcoz der is no 'seat' for him bcoz of reservation rules

Heyeon · May 28, 2006

Freakedout said:
Its funny to see how many of you have opinions about what is going on in India, YET from reading your posts NONE of you really know what is even going on there.

agree

Barts · May 28, 2006

Dr.Acula said:
I'm sorry if i offended anyone by this, it was not my intention. I was trying to prove my point about the difference between making seats available to people of lower caste as opposed to affirmative action and how IMHO it is different.

I have a feeling that was directed at least to some extent towards me

And I wasn't offended at all, I really don't get offended...usually

But thank you for taking the time to offer an apology (even though it wasn't really necessary)

socal1015 · May 28, 2006

Question for those who are educated about this whole matter in India.

From what I understand, the caste system is rooted in Hindu teachings and practice. How does this work with people of other religions? I know for example that India has a relatively large Muslim population and large numbers of people following other religions that don't believe or adopt the caste system in any way. How do they determine that one is part of a specific caste or another?

monami · May 28, 2006

I have no comment.

Centinel · May 28, 2006

monami said:
India is more than EIGHTY Percent Hindu, it has no muslim population, or even it does they are very few.

If you consider 100 million Muslims to be very few, then yes.

Heyeon said:
Misunderstanding of the whole matter..The opposition is not bcoz he is pissed that normal ppl will be allowed to be docs..its bcoz the govt is reserving seats for ppl whose community has/is facing discrimination..translating it to US environ, its like mexican/black being in minority would get into med school wid a 20 on mcat while a white would not be rejected with a 32 just bcoz der is no 'seat' for him bcoz of reservation rules

And how am I misunderstanding things? Why exactly do you think that the Brahmins can score so much better than the other castes? Do you rack it up to differential genetic attributes?

Affirmative action (and similar programs) say, "Look, certain groups are way underperforming, and we think it's because of historical discrimination. These people are born equal to the Brahmins, but bcoz they have had fewer educational opportunities due to their lower caste, they have not done as well on the tests. Let's give them an opportunity."

This is what the students in the article are protesting. Or maybe this will make things more clear to you: I am a white male medical school applicant. Thus I am 'disadvantaged' due to the Affirmative Action policies. Yet I am able to recognize the reason for the programs. I have no problem with the notion that a student who's been given far fewer educational opportunities could, despite having lower scores than mine, become an excellent physician. As basic as this point of view is, I don't think most people see things this way - least of all the medical students in the article.

Of course, nobody ever wants to step outside of themselves to see how something that is bad for them could be better for society as a whole. So let's just go back to hating on Affirmative Action. Here, to please the crowd: "Those bastards that created Affirmative Action are giving away my spot to eggplant-IQ'ed ne'er-do-wells!"

Freakedout · May 28, 2006

Centinel said:
If you consider 100 million Muslims to be very few, then yes.

And how am I misunderstanding things? Why exactly do you think that the Brahmins can score so much better than the other castes? Do you rack it up to differential genetic attributes?

Affirmative action (and similar programs) say, "Look, certain groups are way underperforming, and we think it's because of historical discrimination. These people are born equal to the Brahmins, but bcoz they have had fewer educational opportunities due to their lower caste, they have not done as well on the tests. Let's give them an opportunity."

This is what the students in the article are protesting. Or maybe this will make things more clear to you: I am a white male medical school applicant. Thus I am 'disadvantaged' due to the Affirmative Action policies. Yet I am able to recognize the reason for the programs. I have no problem with the notion that a student who's been given far fewer educational opportunities could, despite having lower scores than mine, become an excellent physician. As basic as this point of view is, I don't think most people see things this way - least of all the medical students in the article.

Of course, nobody ever wants to step outside of themselves to see how something that is bad for them could be better for society as a whole. So let's just go back to hating on Affirmative Action. Here, to please the crowd: "Those bastards that created Affirmative Action are giving away my spot to eggplant-IQ'ed ne'er-do-wells!"

-Do us all a favor and READ more about the circumstances, I feel like anything I say will through your ears as you are a prime epitome of someone who has already made up their mind before collecting all of the facts. Students/ADULTS (including AIIMS faculty (AIIMS=HARVARD OF USA)) are not stupid or discrimnatory towards other classes, they are PROFESSIONAL/intellectual individuals. Please educate yourself about the issue(its not as clear as to whats right or wrong as YOU might think). The students/people protesting have a website PLEASE do a simple google search.

Heyeon · May 28, 2006

Centinel said:
And how am I misunderstanding things? Why exactly do you think that the Brahmins can score so much better than the other castes? Do you rack it up to differential genetic attributes?

I DONOT think that the brahmins can score much better than other castes. Scoring well has nothing to do with genetics but with dedication. I was just giving an example of a situation. Just bcoz say a hispanic scores better has nothing to do with him being hispanic..

[QOUTE=Centinel]
Affirmative action (and similar programs) say, "Look, certain groups are way underperforming, and we think it's because of historical discrimination. These people are born equal to the Brahmins, but bcoz they have had fewer educational opportunities due to their lower caste, they have not done as well on the tests. Let's give them an opportunity."

This is what the students in the article are protesting. Or maybe this will make things more clear to you: I am a white male medical school applicant. Thus I am 'disadvantaged' due to the Affirmative Action policies. Yet I am able to recognize the reason for the programs. I have no problem with the notion that a student who's been given far fewer educational opportunities could, despite having lower scores than mine, become an excellent physician. As basic as this point of view is, I don't think most people see things this way - least of all the medical students in the article.

Of course, nobody ever wants to step outside of themselves to see how something that is bad for them could be better for society as a whole. So let's just go back to hating on Affirmative Action. Here, to please the crowd: "Those bastards that created Affirmative Action are giving away my spot to eggplant-IQ'ed ne'er-do-wells!"[/QUOTE]

Now in India, situation is differernt. There are reservations for everything. Being a women, being a widow, coming from a freedom-fighter's family, being from a tribe, being from a particular class plus there are reservations for alumni's/trustee's family..oh did I forget to mention 'donations'?? where you can literally, am serious, buy the seat for a couple of thousand dollars..SOO for the normal student (i have no idea ever upper class even came from, those protesting are ones from normal/avg section of society) there are hardly any places! Thats why the protest

Heyeon · May 28, 2006

Freakedout said:
-Do us all a favor and READ more about the circumstances, I feel like anything I say will through your ears as you are a prime epitome of someone who has already made up their mind before collecting all of the facts. Students/ADULTS (including AIIMS faculty (AIIMS=HARVARD OF USA)) are not stupid or discrimnatory towards other classes, they are PROFESSIONAL/intellectual individuals. Please educate yourself about the issue(its not as clear as to whats right or wrong as YOU might think). The students/people protesting have a website PLEASE do a simple google search.

Thanks, summed it well

shaggybill · May 28, 2006

akinf said:
As opposed to what? Africa? Latin America? Southern United States? Underserved is underserved where ever it may be.

Southern United States? Is that a joke?

_ian · May 28, 2006

Freakedout said:
-Do us all a favor and READ more about the circumstances, I feel like anything I say will through your ears as you are a prime epitome of someone who has already made up their mind before collecting all of the facts. Students/ADULTS (including AIIMS faculty (AIIMS=HARVARD OF USA)) are not stupid or discrimnatory towards other classes, they are PROFESSIONAL/intellectual individuals. Please educate yourself about the issue(its not as clear as to whats right or wrong as YOU might think). The students/people protesting have a website PLEASE do a simple google search.

Ah, and now we see the greatest debate technique known to man. Always flawless because it is too ludicrous for rebuttal...

"You know nothing, and are entirely wrong, but I will not explain my position because you are clearly not worth my time."

Please, educate us. We are inundated with liberal media here, and while reading CNN, BBC, The Guardian, etc. is nice for the general idea of things, it is very difficult to find anything that does not portray upper caste as the "bad guys" in this situation. I want to understand the other side, but I'm going to need a lot more than "read, *****." Because from what I've read, the government made a sloppy and ill-advised move with increasing the quota, but has since made several concessions that make the deal seem quite fair (such as not reducing the number of spots open to upper caste students competing on merit)

Most of the arguments I've seen against the proposal are like this:

"We feel very strongly that the student intake should be based on merit, not on birth," said Sajanjiv Singh, a 20-year-old medical student who is on hunger strike. "We do not even know what caste people are here, yet the politicians want to label us and use this as a factor in university admissions. It will mean fewer places for the talented."

...which is, honestly, a very silly view to take. The entire reason for these parts of society underperforming is due to historical caste discrimination, not because they're all stupid. Centinel said it better than I:

Centinel said:
Affirmative action (and similar programs) say, "Look, certain groups are way underperforming, and we think it's because of historical discrimination. These people are born equal to the Brahmins, but bcoz they have had fewer educational opportunities due to their lower caste, they have not done as well on the tests. Let's give them an opportunity.""

Now, I am quite willing to listen to any dissenting opinions, and I am quite willing to change my own, if presented with ample reasons. Less hot air, more qualified debate!

PS: "bcoz" makes me automatically read someone's post as if they are a mouthbreathing turd.

Freakedout · May 28, 2006

_ian said:
Please, educate us. We are inundated with liberal media here, and while reading CNN, BBC, The Guardian, etc. is nice for the general idea of things, it is very difficult to find anything that does not portray upper caste as the "bad guys" in this situation. I want to understand the other side, but I'm going to need a lot more than "read, *****." Because from what I've read, the government made a sloppy and ill-advised move with increasing the quota, but has since made several concessions that make the deal seem quite fair (such as not reducing the number of spots open to upper caste students competing on merit)

Most of the arguments I've seen against the proposal are like this:

...which is, honestly, a very silly view to take. The entire reason for these parts of society underperforming is due to historical caste discrimination, not because they're all stupid. Centinel said it better than I:

Now, I am quite willing to listen to any dissenting opinions, and I am quite willing to change my own, if presented with ample reasons. Less hot air, more qualified debate!

PS: "bcoz" makes me automatically read someone's post as if they are a mouthbreathing turd.

People who don't follow my post make me automatically think that they are a mouthbreathing turd. I clearly stated in my post to go to the website created by the protesting students instead of the liberal biased media; however, due to your inability to follow directions I will succumb to pressure and post a charter from the site and Italize main points, you can do the rest of the research on your own. Hopefully a future doctor can manage to do such thought provoking task.

We would like to clarify that we are not a movement against any particular caste or class. Infact we are all for the upliftment of the economically backward. As a matter of fact, we have members from all classes and castes.

We believe that the present system of reservations do not reach those who need it the most. It only makes sense for politicians who want to garner votes by dividing the country. DID I MENTION THERE IS AN ELECTION GOING ON RIGHT NOW.
Charter of Demands

Deferral of the proposed hike in reservation in the central universities.

AND

An Expert Commission should be formed which would explore all the avenues of affirmative actions, review the efficiency of reservation1 as an affirmative action (considering both its benefits and drawbacks) and compare the efficiencies of the all possible affirmative actions. Thus it should come up with a fool proof and time bound strategy to uplift and empower the backward sections of our country without interfering with the overall development and well being of our Nation.

Implementation of the proposed extended reservation policy and any other new reservation policy only after the commission has submitted its report.

A white paper on the reservation policy.

1We view reservations as a limited step to provide opportunities for the backward sections of our country to acquire education and employment.

AND

Places in the Government jobs that are remaining vacant due to lack of eligible candidates from the reserved category should be opened for other eligible candidates immediately.

AND

No action should be taken against the agitating students, interns and resident doctors in any form as regards to service break, termination, pay deduction, legal action etc.

AND

The Hon'ble Prime Minister should give a concrete statement on the issue.

WHAT DO WE MEAN BY EXPERT COMMISSION?

It should be a non-political non-parliamentary commission with members from judicial, social sciences, educational, scientific background. It should be formed in15 days and should submit its report within 1 year's time.

WHAT WOULD BE ITS AIMS AND OBJECTIVE?

To come up with a fool proof and time bound* strategy to uplift and empower the backward sections of our country without interfering with the overall development and well being of our Nation.

WHAT SHOULD IT DO?

1) It would explore all the avenues of affirmative actions.
2) It would assess the efficiency of the existing reservations taking into consideration both its benefits and drawbacks. #
3) It would compare the efficiency of other means of affirmative actions with that of reservations.
4) It should find ways other than affirmative actions, which would help in changing the socio-economic system, which breeds exploitation and inequality.
5) It should come up with socio-economic criteria, which would exclude the affluent and those already having access to jobs and higher education. **
6) It should fix parameters to determine the degree of upliftment and empowerment of the backward sections so that when adequate degree is achieved the Government should stop the policy of affirmative actions.
7) It should always keep in mind that the affirmative actions whatever suggested by the Commission should never interfere with the overall development and well being of our Nation.

*We want that whatever affirmative actions would be followed should have an end-point defined. Parameters should be defined after which there would be no need for affirmative actions in the same lines as they are being given till date.

**Creamy layer should be applied for all.

#While assessing the policy the Commission should take in account the current data about the population distribution.

HOPEFULLY THIS WILL PROVIDE STARTING GROUNDS FOR YOU, but their demands don't seem that extravagant to me.

chowchilla · May 29, 2006

y'all should read this:

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1198102,00.html

chintu · May 29, 2006

It seems like this is becoming an interesting debate as it kind of relates to the american affirmative action system but very few actually has clues on what's going on. Having been raised in India let me give you all a low down on what's happening. First I would like to give a little historical background on this issue. Just like Martin Luther King led the Civil Rights movement in US to gain rights and equality among the african americans, there was a person called Ambedkar who around the time when India gained its Independence from Britain attained a political position. He himself came from one of these low-caste communities (commonly called "Backwards Caste" or BC in short) and faught to pass laws requiring opportunities for these BC's in terms of free education, scholarships for colleges, job positions, and even guaranteed seats in medical schools. Among these communities he became a legend since before him many of these people were considered "untouchables" and were denied from most rights and freedom that the society experienced. Now most people in middle/upper class had no problem with this initially. However, in recent years things really got out of control as more and more of these BCs started to flood the schools, jobs, and most importantly highly professional fields like medicine. It got to the point that it seems the system was being abused because they were not only given greater and greater opportunities for primary and even secondary education but also admission to medschools at a MUCH lower standards than other students. As many pointed out admission to medschools in India thes days is ridiculously competitive based strictly on your merits and marks on standardized exam(s). As more and more medschools started having these reserved Quotas for the BCs (again for political reasons so they can get more grants from govt.) the other students have to compete fiercely for the remaining spots (its so competitive that I can't even quote a percentage acceptance rate or anything like that). So if you are an average middle class student in India who couldn't afford private education and had to settle for cheap gov't schools and wanted to go to med ical school, it is extremely difficult given your circumstances and the lack of opportunities that the wealthy students do (private schools in India are much much better than public). On the other extreme, the students belonging to BC have an automatic ticket into medical schools if they score a certain percentage which is significantly lower than required for others. In addition, what happens often times is that these kids can't hack the competition in medschools against the others and end up failing multiple times before they eventually graduate and sometimes turn out to be incompetent physicians. If you were raised in an average middle class family in India I would bet most of you would be outraged by how the system works these days. There's a whole lot of politics going on underlying this that i can't even describe and this issue is a major one in Indian present. I just hope I clarified that this isn't some stupid protest for one's selfish reason, its a matter of gaining your rights and pursuing your dreams that you are working hard for as opposed to getting a free ride based on one's social status solely. Now I feel extremely luck to be attending an american medical school without having to deal with what's going on in India, but I can acknowledge people's efforts to fix the problems.

Freakedout · May 29, 2006

chintu said:
It seems like this is becoming an interesting debate as it kind of relates to the american affirmative action system but very few actually has clues on what's going on. Having been raised in India let me give you all a low down on what's happening. First I would like to give a little historical background on this issue. Just like Martin Luther King led the Civil Rights movement in US to gain rights and equality among the african americans, there was a person called Ambedkar who around the time when India gained its Independence from Britain attained a political position. He himself came from one of these low-caste communities (commonly called "Backwards Caste" or BC in short) and faught to pass laws requiring opportunities for these BC's in terms of free education, scholarships for colleges, job positions, and even guaranteed seats in medical schools. Among these communities he became a legend since before him many of these people were considered "untouchables" and were denied from most rights and freedom that the society experienced. Now most people in middle/upper class had no problem with this initially. However, in recent years things really got out of control as more and more of these BCs started to flood the schools, jobs, and most importantly highly professional fields like medicine. It got to the point that it seems the system was being abused because they were not only given greater and greater opportunities for primary and even secondary education but also admission to medschools at a MUCH lower standards than other students. As many pointed out admission to medschools in India thes days is ridiculously competitive based strictly on your merits and marks on standardized exam(s). As more and more medschools started having these reserved Quotas for the BCs (again for political reasons so they can get more grants from govt.) the other students have to compete fiercely for the remaining spots (its so competitive that I can't even quote a percentage acceptance rate or anything like that). So if you are an average middle class student in India who couldn't afford private education and had to settle for cheap gov't schools and wanted to go to med ical school, it is extremely difficult given your circumstances and the lack of opportunities that the wealthy students do (private schools in India are much much better than public). On the other extreme, the students belonging to BC have an automatic ticket into medical schools if they score a certain percentage which is significantly lower than required for others. In addition, what happens often times is that these kids can't hack the competition in medschools against the others and end up failing multiple times before they eventually graduate and sometimes turn out to be incompetent physicians. If you were raised in an average middle class family in India I would bet most of you would be outraged by how the system works these days. There's a whole lot of politics going on underlying this that i can't even describe and this issue is a major one in Indian present. I just hope I clarified that this isn't some stupid protest for one's selfish reason, its a matter of gaining your rights and pursuing your dreams that you are working hard for as opposed to getting a free ride based on one's social status solely. Now I feel extremely luck to be attending an american medical school without having to deal with what's going on in India, but I can acknowledge people's efforts to fix the problems.

Thank you for taking the time explain this. The reason why they are protesting is because instead of helping backward socioeconomic folks, it has gotten so out of had that it actually puts everyone else at a disadvantage.
As time says"...nearly 50% of seats at elite universities such as AIIMS or the prestigious Indian Institutes of Technology will be set aside for members of the lower castes" I don't think you will find any american university fill using affirmative action to fill 50% of the class

_ian · May 29, 2006

Freakedout said:
words

I'll ignore the cheeky attitude, and just mention that you never gave the URL, you said to Google it with no hint as to what this group calls themselves. My attempts brought up several news sources and AIIMS - which doesn't render properly on the only computer I have available, for what it's worth - and I didn't intend to go on a goose chase for the thing. Whatever; you gave me what I wanted in the end.

The charter is well-meaning. Taking the time to evaluate all the options is certainly a good thing, especially since this is clearly just an attempt to garner election votes.

However, it seems to me that they will throw a fit if this established committee decides that reservations are actually reasonable.
They clearly want different solutions that help OBC without affecting the upper castes so explicitly. This is more than fair enough, for all of the reasons mentioned by chintu, but what other "affirmative action" is really plausible in this situation? In what other ways can this situation be fixed, without the use of affirmative action? Honest questions.

One thing that stuck out from the Time article above:

Detractors stress that it is not just because of merit that they oppose the quota system; they believe it is not addressing the real problems in India. If the lower castes and classes had equal opportunities earlier in life, they argue, quotas wouldn't be necessary for higher education. "Instead of reserving 10 seats at AIIMS, educate 10,000 children. Then you will see a difference in Indian society," says Sen.

This is completely true, and it's definitely the best option... but I imagine it's fantasy. That is the long-term solution, and resources should certainly be poured into it, but it will take decades to accomplish. Outside factors do come into play... it's far easier and far less expensive to throw kids headfirst into better professional schools and hope they stay afloat than trying to revamp all primary education throughout the country. Problem is, if these kids are actually not performing well even when they enter medical school, then reservations aren't working... but is this truth, or just myth perpetuated by the angry middle class who were supplanted by the "less qualified?" Most students admitted to US universities by affirmative action are not so significantly unqualified that they perform any less well, but I suppose it could be different in India -- and this would obviously change my opinion.

And yes, regardless of the situation, 50% is almost certainly overboard.

crazy_cavalier · May 29, 2006

bah forget it all. this thread sucks.

crazy_cavalier · May 29, 2006

chowchilla said:
y'all should read this:

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1198102,00.html

BAHAHA the whole idea of a "meritocracy" is ****ing BULL****. Honestly. Yeah, I'd like to see just how much merit the privileged upper class would have had if they were sprawling in the lowest class environment and didn't have the luxury of good primary schooling, tutors, and various other factors that come from having a privileged background.

Freakedout · May 29, 2006

_ian said:
I'll ignore the cheeky attitude, and just mention that you never gave the URL, you said to Google it with no hint as to what this group calls themselves. My attempts brought up several news sources and AIIMS - which doesn't render properly on the only computer I have available, for what it's worth - and I didn't intend to go on a goose chase for the thing. Whatever; you gave me what I wanted in the end.

The charter is well-meaning. Taking the time to evaluate all the options is certainly a good thing, especially since this is clearly just an attempt to garner election votes.

However, it seems to me that they will throw a fit if this established committee decides that reservations are actually reasonable.
They clearly want different solutions that help OBC without affecting the upper castes so explicitly. This is more than fair enough, for all of the reasons mentioned by chintu, but what other "affirmative action" is really plausible in this situation? In what other ways can this situation be fixed, without the use of affirmative action? Honest questions.

One thing that stuck out from the Time article above:

This is completely true, and it's definitely the best option... but I imagine it's fantasy. That is the long-term solution, and resources should certainly be poured into it, but it will take decades to accomplish. Outside factors do come into play... it's far easier and far less expensive to throw kids headfirst into better professional schools and hope they stay afloat than trying to revamp all primary education throughout the country. Problem is, if these kids are actually not performing well even when they enter medical school, then reservations aren't working... but is this truth, or just myth perpetuated by the angry middle class who were supplanted by the "less qualified?" Most students admitted to US universities by affirmative action are not so significantly unqualified that they perform any less well, but I suppose it could be different in India -- and this would obviously change my opinion.

And yes, regardless of the situation, 50% is almost certainly overboard.

Well you deserved the attitude, you should have asked for the url point blank instead of implying I was wrong with a subtle hint of sarcasm. You are also right however that the attitude was unwarrented; in my defense I was just upset with certain people spouting off opinions about these well-meaning people without reading up on the issue.

LUBDUBB · May 29, 2006

Freakedout said:
People who don't follow my post make me automatically think that they are a mouthbreathing turd. I clearly stated in my post to go to the website created by the protesting students instead of the liberal biased media; however, due to your inability to follow directions I will succumb to pressure and post a charter from the site and Italize main points, you can do the rest of the research on your own. Hopefully a future doctor can manage to do such thought provoking task.

"Cheeky", as one poster put it, doesn't do the post justice.

Freakedout · May 29, 2006

crazy_cavalier said:
BAHAHA the whole idea of a "meritocracy" is ****ing BULL****. Honestly. Yeah, I'd like to see just how much merit the privileged upper class would have had if they were sprawling in the lowest class environment and didn't have the luxury of good primary schooling, tutors, and various other factors that come from having a privileged background.

I am going to give up pretty soon. The QUESTION here isn't about the upper class or lower class. Lower class gets in due to AA, upper gets in due to privileged background/DONATIONS. You have no idea how political crap goes on, and I can't even begin to describe it. So what ends up happening is all these bright/talented middle class students get the SHAFT. Hence the Protests, now with increasing the reservation seats to 50% for lower castes, it will only get worse for them.

Centinel · May 29, 2006

_ian, chintu, chowchilla, thank you for the useful and constructive back-and-forth. While I still feel strongly about the caste system in India, our discussion has clarified the apparent motives of the protestors in this current situation.

Freakedout, your writing is honestly hard to follow. I don't mean that as an insult, but I think it's important that you understand this: If people consistently fail to understand what you're saying, it's probably your fault, not the fault of the rest of the world. Your frustration came through in your posts; had you spent a little time clarifying before submitting, I think the discussion would have been more clear on your end.

Freakedout · May 29, 2006

Centinel said:
Freakedout, your writing is honestly hard to follow. I don't mean that as an insult, but I think it's important that you understand this: If people consistently fail to understand what you're saying, it's probably your fault, not the fault of the rest of the world. Your frustration came through in your posts; had you spent a little time clarifying before submitting, I think the discussion would have been more clear on your end.

I am not taking it as an insult, but I really don't know what you are talking about. No person yet has said anything about not understanding what I was trying to convey, so I am not sure where this is coming from. If anything _ian concurred certain points I made in my previous posts. Albeit my posts wouldn't have missing words, had I bothered to proofread them every now and then.

BTW, I agree with you that there should be no caste system, and therefore any assistance in obtaining an education based on it.

Siggy · May 29, 2006

Freakedout said:
People who don't follow my post make me automatically think that they are a mouthbreathing turd. I clearly stated in my post to go to the website created by the protesting students instead of the liberal biased media; however, due to your inability to follow directions I will succumb to pressure and post a charter from the site and Italize main points, you can do the rest of the research on your own. Hopefully a future doctor can manage to do such thought provoking task.

So, media that probably has a bias, bad. Website put up by one of the groups (so its obviously going to be biased) good? That's like saying, "Go to George Bush's website to find out why we should vote for him. Don't listen to that biased liberal media" back in the 2004 US presidential elections.

Oh, and the only way to fight racism (caste system, people being *******es, etc) is with more racism (AA).

Freakedout · May 29, 2006

Siggy said:
So, media that probably has a bias, bad. Website put up by one of the groups (so its obviously going to be biased) good? That's like saying, "Go to George Bush's website to find out why we should vote for him. Don't listen to that biased liberal media" back in the 2004 US presidential elections.

You are right their website containing their charter(demands) are extremely biased.

Hercules022 · May 29, 2006

Affirmative action is a load of crap, but I think us US med students are fine just waiting for the Supreme Court to ban it in the next 10-15 yrs. Getting out the Zippo seems a bit much

brotherbu · May 30, 2006

I'm a US student and I just got back from a trip to India. Yeah these protests are big news over there. Its wrong for us Americans to make the assumption that affirmative action is something new in India, or that the caste system is the best means determining status in a country that is certainly of great economic divide. Thus I understand the case of the protestors. Nonetheless, NO ONE is talking about the real people who are suffering - the poor who aren't getting their medical care. You can't blame any one singe side for these patients' sufferings. Both the government and the doctors are responsible . There is a hippocratic oath involved, and although doctors need to find effective means of achieving what is in their interests, medical strikes leave disgusting results.

The time article quoted an individual who made his analogy of ideal medical school admissions to India sending its fastest runner to the Olympics. This here reveals a big part of the problem no one addresses - the single-factored competitiveness. Yes, medicine, in the US, India, and abroad, will always and should always be competitive. However, the problem with India's system is its utter dependence on exam results. Yes, the MCAT is important in the US, but a student with a decent (though not top-notch) score can still get into a competitive school by showing other means of potential to becoming a good doctor. THe biggest one is an intense desire to help others. Great consideration is given to students who go out of their way to help in underserved communities and help the underserved. Volunteering is huge. I never got impression that such work is important in the Indian medical admissions process (I could be wrong, but I talked with a lot of people over there about this). Service and volunteering, especially in underserved clinics, also help a lot of US premeds understand before they apply what being a doctor is all about. Many people I know, who intellectually were brilliant and were "smart" enough to become a doctor, gave up their interests in medicine after doing clinical volunteering b/c they knew the field was simply not for them. Something in my gut tells me that if more Indian students took the time to volunteer in such areas before they had to apply to medical school, there would be at least a few less applicants "dying" to get in. Something else tells me that if Indian medical students were selected with consideration given to their calling service of others, more consideration would be given to those suffering from the strike's lack of treatment. Yes, the protest momentum is increasing, and the students voices are getting louder...but its been over 16 days that these people haven't had care...something needs to be done about that, b/c it is simply wrong.

Medicine is service, and not a competition of standardized exams. Yes, exams still need to be important, but the Indian medical application system needs to be more multi-faceted and geared toward selecting intelligent students who also have an intense desire to devote their lives to the service of others. This is one approach that I wish more people would discuss.

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