the Asian Paradox...

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Dr. Gigglez

Dr. Gigglez

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Asian Americans are a minority in society as a whole...

but are NOT given minority privileges (which ALL minorities need) when in comes to education and health....why is that?

you NEVER see any statistics on Asian Americans in most, if not all, medical school student body descriptions...

it is ridiculous to believe that Asians are naturally "smarter" and just get into graduate schools more than the other minorities....that is just a form of social Darwinism that is twisted to keep a minority in its place instead of traditionally elevating the majority class...

the fact is that due to the media playdown on Asian American issues and problems, the public views Asians as the model minority...which is NOT true...it is a MYTH! and it is not a good thing! the issues that need to be addressed are swept under the rug...

it is condescending to see a race or ethnic group as a model of which other groups should live upto...not only to the other groups, but also to Asian Americans b/c it implies that they themselves are modelled based on the majority group! the whole "model minority" concept is based on the premise that the majority group is the standard of perfection, and that Asian Americans are just a model of that standard.


is anyone else feeling me?

the fact is that there are an overwhelming number of caucasian doctors compared to Asian American physicians...

Asian Americans are "believed" to be accepted into more gradschools, but where are the numbers?!?!

affirmative action is a good ideal to strive for, but is inherently flawed in its approach...the key term is "underrepresented minorities" - does that make any sense?!?! which minority is NOT underrrepresented? the one that works their butts off and makes it into gradschool?...ridiculous...
and again, where are the numbers and why are they relatively more obscure to find?


this is insidious institutional descrimination at its worst...:thumbdown:
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I don't want to fuel the fire but....

At the medical school at my university... no joke.. 40% of the class is asian
 
Dr_Dan_the_man said:
I don't want to fuel the fire but....

At the medical school at my university... no joke.. 40% of the class is asian
Click to expand...


hey dan,

seriously?! wow man - which med school is that?
does anyone know of any other schools like this?

i have never heard of that before - hahah, thanks for the info.
 
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this is insidious institutional descrimination at its worst...
Click to expand...

Or instead of complain about how you are not going to get a free ride into medical school beacuse of a URM status, you could actually suck it up and work hard and get in like us white boys....
 
Oceano said:
Or instead of complain about how you are not going to get a free ride into medical school beacuse of a URM status, you could actually suck it up and work hard and get in like us white boys....
Click to expand...

you see, i knew someone was going to post a response like this.
instead of ASSUMING that i was not white or don't work as hard as you, you can read my post for what it is - which is that the system practices instititional descrimination.

if anything, caucasians should feel as strongly about this matter as any other group.
 
Dr. Gigglez said:
Asian Americans are a minority in society as a whole...

but are NOT given minority privileges (which ALL minorities need) when in comes to education and health....why is that?

you NEVER see any statistics on Asian Americans in most, if not all, medical school student body descriptions...

it is ridiculous to believe that Asians are naturally "smarter" and just get into graduate schools more than the other minorities....that is just a form of social Darwinism that is twisted to keep a minority in its place instead of traditionally elevating the majority class...

the fact is that due to the media playdown on Asian American issues and problems, the public views Asians as the model minority...which is NOT true...it is a MYTH! and it is not a good thing! the issues that need to be addressed are swept under the rug...

it is condescending to see a race or ethnic group as a model of which other groups should live upto...not only to the other groups, but also to Asian Americans b/c it implies that they themselves are modelled based on the majority group! the whole "model minority" concept is based on the premise that the majority group is the standard of perfection, and that Asian Americans are just a model of that standard.


is anyone else feeling me?

the fact is that there are an overwhelming number of caucasian doctors compared to Asian American physicians...

Asian Americans are "believed" to be accepted into more gradschools, but where are the numbers?!?!

affirmative action is a good ideal to strive for, but is inherently flawed in its approach...the key term is "underrepresented minorities" - does that make any sense?!?! which minority is NOT underrrepresented? the one that works their butts off and makes it into gradschool?...ridiculous...
and again, where are the numbers and why are they relatively more obscure to find?


this is insidious institutional descrimination at its worst...:thumbdown:
Click to expand...

Let me preface this by saying that I am completely against affirmative action and URM status, but there are some flaws with your argument. URM denotes a class of people who are not representively proportionally in college, grad, professional school based on their numbers in the general population. Asians, I believe, meet and in some instances exceed their proportion in the general population when it comes to higher education. So the pro-URM argument is that because Asians are already sufficiently represented based upon their numbers in the general population they do not need the extra boost in admissions that blacks, hispanics, or native americans need.

To cite a simple example of the "numbers" you want to see.

UCLA is 41% Asian
http://apps.collegeboard.com/search/CollegeDetail.jsp?match=true&collegeId=992&type=qfs&word=ucla

But, according to the US Census, California as a whole is only roughly 32.9% Asian
http://factfinder.census.gov/servle...me=DEC_2000_SF3_U_DP2&-ds_name=DEC_2000_SF3_U
 
astrife said:
Let me preface this by saying that I am completely against affirmative action and URM status, but there are some flaws with your argument. URM denotes a class of people who are not representively proportionally in college, grad, professional school based on their numbers in the general population. Asians, I believe, meet and in some instances exceed their proportion in the general population when it comes to higher education. So the pro-URM argument is that because Asians are already sufficiently represented based upon their numbers in the general population they do not need the extra boost in admissions that blacks, hispanics, or native americans need.

To cite a simple example of the "numbers" you want to see.

UCLA is 41% Asian
http://apps.collegeboard.com/search/CollegeDetail.jsp?match=true&collegeId=992&type=qfs&word=ucla

But, according to the US Census, California as a whole is only roughly 32.9% Asian
http://factfinder.census.gov/servle...me=DEC_2000_SF3_U_DP2&-ds_name=DEC_2000_SF3_U
Click to expand...

thanks for the info astrife
 
I have heard that at competitive schools with MCAT averages of ~35 the average Indian has a ~38. Yes, thats about a 99%tile. Its unfair, but hey, thats the way it is.
 
Dr. Gigglez said:
Asian Americans are a minority in society as a whole...

but are NOT given minority privileges (which ALL minorities need) when in comes to education and health....why is that?

you NEVER see any statistics on Asian Americans in most, if not all, medical school student body descriptions...

Asian Americans are "believed" to be accepted into more gradschools, but where are the numbers?!?!

affirmative action is a good ideal to strive for, but is inherently flawed in its approach...the key term is "underrepresented minorities" - does that make any sense?!?! which minority is NOT underrrepresented? the one that works their butts off and makes it into gradschool?...ridiculous...
and again, where are the numbers and why are they relatively more obscure to find?
Click to expand...


umm...like someone else has already posted...the percentage of asians who get into medical school usually outnumbers the percentage of asians in the population.

"underrepresented" is used to refer to groups underrepresented in medicine.

how come asians dont have "privileges" in the med school application game? 'Cause its quite abvious that they don't need it!!!!

while i don't have the specific numbers for northwestern, subjectively i'd say we have as many asians in our medical school as that 40% figure posted for UCLA. and let me tell you, some of those asians are doing really well in the class.

so honestly...what are you complaining about?
 
URM status in med school admissions is reserved for those who are under-represented in medical school. Thus, those of Native American, African-American, and Hispanic/Latino origin are given preference. Since the Asian community is VERY well-represented in the medical school community, they are not a "minority" in that context.

Keep in mind that being a minority ONLY comes into play when the percentage of that particular population in the total population is greater than that population's representation in some context. Thus, if 32.9% of California is Asian and 40% of UCLA's med students are Asian - Asian's are technically OVER-REPRESENTED at UCLA SOM.
 
PeeeeUuuuuuu. I was happily typing away and thought I started to catch a whiff of a Troll. Thought it could have been coming from this thread. Could be wrong though. Everyone keep a look out, they can be hard to spot sometimes .... those smelly little trolls. I heard they prolferate about this time of year :scared:
 
Maybe if we cut this structural bolt here and then cut through this brace...?
 
Dr. Gigglez said:
you NEVER see any statistics on Asian Americans in most, if not all, medical school student body descriptions...
Click to expand...


check the MSAR, buddy.... asians are listed for every school.... and it's usually quite a high number.
 
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Stolenspatulas said:
I have heard that at competitive schools with MCAT averages of ~35 the average Indian has a ~38. Yes, thats about a 99%tile. Its unfair, but hey, thats the way it is.
Click to expand...

It's not fair that their scores are higher? Are you implying cheating here?

phospho said:
I'm a 100% full-blooded Palestinian, and it's sickening to see some of my Egyptian friends applying to medical school as "African Americans", simply because Egypt is technically in Africa - and it does work for them for the most part, especially since most of them have relatively darker skin.

On the other hand, I don't blame them for doing so, simply because Arabs are not addressed as "minorities" in the system either. In fact, I don't think anyone is really considered a minority in the system unless they are Native Americans or African Americans. I could be mistaken, but I can't think of anyone else who would be classified as so.
Click to expand...

So true! I know many people who checked "african" in their Test forms and even Applications. This is the sad state we're coming to, if you're stupid, pretend you're black so they'll feel obliged to accept you? Pathetic!

Just know that you are not the only one out there - Arabs, Indians, and many other races are complaining of the same thing. I also can somewhat see what you mean by Asians being stereotyped as hard workers; however, Asians are like Arabs and Indians for example, they come here to America to get something done – at least for the most part.

No offense to any English or Music majors out there, because I'm just using you as an example; I came all the way from Palestine to the U.S. for an education, and my father is paying close to 50,000 dollars a year for my education and living expenses. I can't just call my father and tell him that I want to major in Music or English. It's not that Music or English are bad majors, but his first response will be "pack your things and come home, you can major in either of them here". Same thing applies to Asians, and other minority groups, they simply didn't come to the other side of the world to major in something like English for example (again, no offense), because if they did want to do something like that, they might as well have stayed in their countries and saved a crap load of money.

I'm sure many people will disagree with me on a certain level here, but I do not mean to apply this inference on everyone. Of course we will have different kinds of people, who come to America for different reasons, and I cannot speak for them – I can only speak about myself and for my friends whom I have heard complain about this endlessly. There are definitely people who come to study in America for all kinds of reasons, including reasons that revolve around getting exposure to the culture and the societal structure of this country. I do not intend to generalize, and I apologize if I mistakenly gave the impression of doing so.
Click to expand...

Good post, interesting.
 
This is the unavoidable problem that we encounter when we use a system that adresses race rather than socio-economics in terms of admissions criteria.
 
Haemulon said:
PeeeeUuuuuuu. I was happily typing away and thought I started to catch a whiff of a Troll. Thought it could have been coming from this thread. Could be wrong though. Everyone keep a look out, they can be hard to spot sometimes .... those smelly little trolls. I heard they prolferate about this time of year :scared:
Click to expand...


i hope i am not coming off as a troll..

these are very real issues that need to be addressed, and i am not the only one who feels that way. i do not delight in conflict, and my intention is to hear what other people have to say on the matter. i do not know everything, and am learning from what others have to say.

on another note:
one perspective on the matter is that, one needs to keep in mind that Asian Americans and other minorities are MINORITIES in society, and by defnition are LESS privileged (= underprivileged) compared to majority populations.

so it seems ridiculous to limit the implemented measures in equalizing the playing field for minorities when some minority groups are left out.

can anyone say with integrity that Asian Americans and the other minorities that are left out of the URM status consist of the MAJORITY of most medical schools? (serious question, and not rhetorical)


indeed...egyptians and white africans using the URM status - what does that imply? (again, not rhetorical)


i am curious to what people have to say.
what are possible solutions?
 
Dr. Gigglez said:
i hope i am not coming off as a troll..

these are very real issues that need to be addressed, and i am not the only one who feels that way. i do not delight in conflict, and my intention is to hear what other people have to say on the matter. i do not know everything, and am learning from what others have to say.

on another note:
one perspective on the matter is that, one needs to keep in mind that Asian Americans and other minorities are MINORITIES in society, and by defnition are LESS privileged (= underprivileged) compared to majority populations.

so it seems ridiculous to limit the implemented measures in equalizing the playing field for minorities when some minority groups are left out.

can anyone say with integrity that Asian Americans and the other minorities that are left out of the URM status consist of the MAJORITY of most medical schools? (serious question, and not rhetorical)


indeed...egyptians and white africans using the URM status - what does that imply? (again, not rhetorical)


i am curious to what people have to say.
what are possible solutions?
Click to expand...


I just don't see much of a problem in need of a solution here. Asians are not under-representated in medicine, so are not considered URM's. Certain other groups are under-represented and have programs to assist in increasing their relative numbers. It is an imperfect system. I'm not really getting the point of your discussion here. What exactly is it that you want to change?
 
phospho said:
INo offense to any English or Music majors out there, because I’m just using you as an example; I came all the way from Palestine to the U.S. for an education, and my father is paying close to 50,000 dollars a year for my education and living expenses. I can’t just call my father and tell him that I want to major in Music or English. It’s not that Music or English are bad majors, but his first response will be “pack your things and come home, you can major in either of them here”. Same thing applies to Asians, and other minority groups, they simply didn’t come to the other side of the world to major in something like English for example (again, no offense), because if they did want to do something like that, they might as well have stayed in their countries and saved a crap load of money.
Click to expand...
I disagree--it seems to me that, in many countries, the prestige of an American education in ANY field is worth sending a child around the world for...although it's certainly true that there are many parents even in America who would strongly object to their kids' selection of music/English majors rather than something "useful" like engineering, economics, or even a foreign language.

And--I'm really not taking offense!--as far as your selection of music as an example: check out the admission stats for ANY of the leading conservatories in the USA and you'll find that the percentage of Asians is at least comparable to, and sometimes greater than, the percentage of Asians at med schools.
 
Haemulon said:
I just don't see much of a problem in need of a solution here. Asians are not under-representated in medicine, so are not considered URM's. Certain other groups are under-represented and have programs to assist in increasing their relative numbers. It is an imperfect system. I'm not really getting the point of your discussion here. What exactly is it that you want to change?
Click to expand...

affirmative action is an imperfect system and effects everyone.
where is the line cutoff for underrepresentation? 10%? 20%? 30%? 40%?

as was mentioned before - there are minority groups that are underrepresented, and there are people who use URS to their advantage.

i am not arguing for anything. i wanted to share some of my thoughs and am just curious on people's thoughts and feelings on the matter.
 
Dr. Gigglez said:
i hope i am not coming off as a troll..

on another note:
one perspective on the matter is that, one needs to keep in mind that Asian Americans and other minorities are MINORITIES in society, and by defnition are LESS privileged (= underprivileged) compared to majority populations.

so it seems ridiculous to limit the implemented measures in equalizing the playing field for minorities when some minority groups are left out.

can anyone say with integrity that Asian Americans and the other minorities that are left out of the URM status consist of the MAJORITY of most medical schools? (serious question, and not rhetorical)
Click to expand...

whats your deal?

so you think there should be affirmative action for asians? why should there be AA for asians if the percentage of asians in medical school already outnumbers their percentage in the population of the US?

and i do not see how being a "minority" automatically means you are "less privileged." i do not think that the two are automatically tied together.
 
Dr. Gigglez said:
affirmative action is an imperfect system and effects everyone.
where is the line cutoff for underrepresentation? 10%? 20%? 30%? 40%?

as was mentioned before - there are minority groups that are underrepresented, and there are people who use URS to their advantage.

i am not arguing for anything. i wanted to share some of my thoughs and am just curious on people's thoughts and feelings on the matter.
Click to expand...

Fair enough. I don't think there is, nor can there be, a definite cut-off for determining underrepresentation. It is a comparison of the reprepresentation of a group in the general population with its representation in certain institutions, such as medical school. If we are all in agreement that it is an imperfect system, then I think that its unfair application in the circumstances of certain groups or individuals is inevitable. I do not see AA as a real significant factor impacting me personally, or majority groups generally. So I am not very concerned about it. It is what it is until a better system can be formulated or until there is no longer a need for AA. Those are my thoughts.
 
Affirmative actions would be a totally fair system if asians chose their career paths in the same pattern as caucasians. This is definately NOT the case. A larger proportion of the asian population is applying to medical school. This makes our odds much more difficult.

Also, unless I am mistaken, California schools do not use Affirmative Action in thei admissions process. Thats why 50% of the student body in most the the UC school are asian. This is just a testament to how many asians are applying to medical school.

Oh well... no point in complaining now. Just gotta try my best and let God do the rest. :D
 
dannylee718 said:
Oh well... no point in complaining now. Just gotta try my best and let God do the rest. :D
Click to expand...

I think we all should follow suit. I myself am not for AA, but find nothing more annoying that a white kid whinning that some faceless minority took "his/her" spot.
 
phospho said:
I don't think anyone ever said that affirmative action is not flawed; in fact, the truth is that no matter what kind of system is implemented will be flawed, because I personally don't think that any system out there could potentially address all the minority groups.

I'm a 100% full-blooded Palestinian, and it's sickening to see some of my Egyptian friends applying to medical school as "African Americans", simply because Egypt is technically in Africa - and it does work for them for the most part, especially since most of them have relatively darker skin.

On the other hand, I don't blame them for doing so, simply because Arabs are not addressed as "minorities" in the system either. In fact, I don't think anyone is really considered a minority in the system unless they are Native Americans or African Americans. I could be mistaken, but I can't think of anyone else who would be classified as so.

Just know that you are not the only one out there - Arabs, Indians, and many other races are complaining of the same thing. I also can somewhat see what you mean by Asians being stereotyped as hard workers; however, Asians are like Arabs and Indians for example, they come here to America to get something done – at least for the most part.

No offense to any English or Music majors out there, because I’m just using you as an example; I came all the way from Palestine to the U.S. for an education, and my father is paying close to 50,000 dollars a year for my education and living expenses. I can’t just call my father and tell him that I want to major in Music or English. It’s not that Music or English are bad majors, but his first response will be “pack your things and come home, you can major in either of them here”. Same thing applies to Asians, and other minority groups, they simply didn’t come to the other side of the world to major in something like English for example (again, no offense), because if they did want to do something like that, they might as well have stayed in their countries and saved a crap load of money.

I’m sure many people will disagree with me on a certain level here, but I do not mean to apply this inference on everyone. Of course we will have different kinds of people, who come to America for different reasons, and I cannot speak for them – I can only speak about myself and for my friends whom I have heard complain about this endlessly. There are definitely people who come to study in America for all kinds of reasons, including reasons that revolve around getting exposure to the culture and the societal structure of this country. I do not intend to generalize, and I apologize if I mistakenly gave the impression of doing so.
Click to expand...


I have agree with you here. I am Nigerian, and we pretty much are all expected to be doctors, lawyers, or engineers. My parents were immigrants so me telling them I plan to be a fashion designer is a one-way ticket back to the Motherland. There are exceptions of course, lucky for them I actually like medicine and didnt choose to rebel:laugh:
 
Dr. Gigglez said:
Asian Americans are a minority in society as a whole...

but are NOT given minority privileges (which ALL minorities need) when in comes to education and health....why is that?
Click to expand...

Because of KUMON. And Chinese/Korean/Japanese school. Asian kids in the U.S. get out of high school just like other kids and where do they go? TO ANOTHER SCHOOL?!?! Where they learn advanced math (even collegiate mathematics)? Compare the amount of studying and total hours in school (American plus additional Asian school) for an average Asian American to an average Caucasian and you will see an enormous difference. WE DONT NEED BENEFITS... WE ALREADY GIVE OUR SELVES A MONSTROUS HEADSTART.

it is ridiculous to believe that Asians are naturally "smarter" and just get into graduate schools more than the other minorities....that is just a form of social Darwinism that is twisted to keep a minority in its place instead of traditionally elevating the majority class...
Click to expand...

So instead you want to hand them charity? Make them not work for what they get? Please. Asians shouldn't have to be exposed to the same anti-AA criticism that African Americans and Native Americans have to go through, especially for a bunch of benefits that we don't even need.

the fact is that due to the media playdown on Asian American issues and problems, the public views Asians as the model minority...which is NOT true...it is a MYTH! and it is not a good thing! the issues that need to be addressed are swept under the rug...
Click to expand...

wtf is this? elaborate on what you are talking about here.

it is condescending to see a race or ethnic group as a model of which other groups should live upto...not only to the other groups, but also to Asian Americans b/c it implies that they themselves are modelled based on the majority group! the whole "model minority" concept is based on the premise that the majority group is the standard of perfection, and that Asian Americans are just a model of that standard.
Click to expand...

Actually I would think Asian Americans are thought to be modelled as the top dogs in education, not compared to any other group, but setting the bar themselves. Everything from standardized tests to jokes in movies about asian kids being the smart nerdy library junkies can attest to that.

the fact is that there are an overwhelming number of caucasian doctors compared to Asian American physicians...
Click to expand...
Welcome to America... *news flash* whites are the majority.

Asian Americans are "believed" to be accepted into more gradschools, but where are the numbers?!?!
Click to expand...
You're obviously looking in the wrong spots. International Relations, Business, Social Sciences - those kinds of things don't pump the Asian statistic. Try engineering and math. Go walk through your math department's graduate buildings... its like Chinatown farted at your school.

affirmative action is a good ideal to strive for, but is inherently flawed in its approach...the key term is "underrepresented minorities" - does that make any sense?!?! which minority is NOT underrrepresented? the one that works their butts off and makes it into gradschool?...ridiculous...
and again, where are the numbers and why are they relatively more obscure to find?
Click to expand...
Call the Department of Education or whatever at the government if you are so interested.

this is insidious institutional descrimination at its worst...:thumbdown:
Click to expand...
Asians don't need help. We're fine without the benefits that others are criticized for. We have enough to stomach - can't drive, smell like mothballs, small male genitals - we don't need to add "freeloaders" to the list, ok? And the smart nerdy intelligent stereotype is just fine. I like walking into classes where there's a good number of Asians and seeing the whites go even paler with academic fear. I like other races coming up to me and asking me if I know how to do something, and when I totally BS them, they walk away thinking, damn I wish I was smart as an Asian.
 
eternalrage said:
Because of KUMON. And Chinese/Korean/Japanese school. Asian kids in the U.S. get out of high school just like other kids and where do they go? TO ANOTHER SCHOOL?!?! Where they learn advanced math (even collegiate mathematics)? Compare the amount of studying and total hours in school (American plus additional Asian school) for an average Asian American to an average Caucasian and you will see an enormous difference. WE DONT NEED BENEFITS... WE ALREADY GIVE OUR SELVES A MONSTROUS HEADSTART.



So instead you want to hand them charity? Make them not work for what they get? Please. Asians shouldn't have to be exposed to the same anti-AA criticism that African Americans and Native Americans have to go through, especially for a bunch of benefits that we don't even need.



wtf is this? elaborate on what you are talking about here.



Actually I would think Asian Americans are thought to be modelled as the top dogs in education, not compared to any other group, but setting the bar themselves. Everything from standardized tests to jokes in movies about asian kids being the smart nerdy library junkies can attest to that.


Welcome to America... *news flash* whites are the majority.


You're obviously looking in the wrong spots. International Relations, Business, Social Sciences - those kinds of things don't pump the Asian statistic. Try engineering and math. Go walk through your math department's graduate buildings... its like Chinatown farted at your school.


Call the Department of Education or whatever at the government if you are so interested.


Asians don't need help. We're fine without the benefits that others are criticized for. We have enough to stomach - can't drive, smell like mothballs, small male genitals - we don't need to add "freeloaders" to the list, ok? And the smart nerdy intelligent stereotype is just fine. I like walking into classes where there's a good number of Asians and seeing the whites go even paler with academic fear. I like other races coming up to me and asking me if I know how to do something, and when I totally BS them, they walk away thinking, damn I wish I was smart as an Asian.
Click to expand...


You are badass...I agree with everything you have said. Saved me the trouble of typing.
:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
 
eternalrage said:
I like other races coming up to me and asking me if I know how to do something, and when I totally BS them, they walk away thinking, damn I wish I was smart as an Asian.
Click to expand...

Damn. The only thing I ever get asked is how I find the audacity to allow myself to sleep at night. :D
 
Dr. Gigglez said:
as was mentioned before - there are minority groups that are underrepresented, and there are people who use URS to their advantage.
Click to expand...

Asians ARE NOT underrepresented in medicine. Which pretty much invalidates your entire point.
 
*sighs...

for those of you who are attacking my post, you really have no reason to and are assuming that i am arguing for something - stop taking the issue to personally and try to see the points objectively.

Asian Americans are a minority.

by definition, a minority does not have all the privileges of a majority.

being a member of the majority makes it hard for you to see those privileges and accept the fact that you are privileged, not to mention even giving them up. minority = having less privilege than the majority

for those minority members who do not see this fact, you are very much in denial and need to pay closer attention to the facts. you may be a rich Asian/Black/Hispanic kid who lives in a well-off neighborhood, and may or may not have experienced racism your entire lives, but just because you don't choose to see yourself as any less privileged than a Caucasian guy, doesn't mean other people of your race/ethnicity do not experience it. anyways, i'm talking about institutional descrimination, not personal descrimination


Asian Americans are not even close to being the majority in the health industry. most administrative positions are still held by Caucasian males.

to socuteMD: despite URS, there are NOT more Asian American physicians than Caucasian physicians - therefore, the facts are not invalidated. you are going off the premise of physician/population ratio, and i am talking about overall numbers. i am not disagreeing that URS is what it is - i am questioning its validity and what its worth.

i NEVER said Asian Americans should get AA status. so to people like eternalrage, please take your rage somewhere else and stop assuming things and trying to find points to attack. have you ever thought that maybe KUMON or those other "Asian" schools you talked about are put into place b/c Asians NEED to have that advantage to compete effectively? to stand out?

to eternalrage: about your "wtf" comment: it is sad that Asian Americans buy into the model minority myth. it seems like flattery is buying complacency. go look up rates on high school drop-outs, gang involvement, and depression for Asian Americans. go look up what jobs most Asian Americans tend to get. go check out the % of Asian American promotions compared to every other group. about the media: How many Asian male broadasters do you see on tv? How many Asian males are portrayed on film that aren't martial artists? How many stories do you hear on Asian American poverty? physical and sexual abuse? and don't tell me these issues don't exist. open your eyes..

if you feel that Asian Americans are not less privileged than Caucasian Americans on an institutional level, you are ignoring the facts - and if you'd like i'll give you lists of citations of these studies and polls from very reputable journals, after my acceptance from medschool.


it is not my intention to "prove" any point.
read the post for what its worth.
 
Asians are roughly 4% of the US population, yet constitute 50% of undergraduates (20% in the Ivy league) and 20% of medical students.

Their stats are higher because most are pushed and supported to work harder for their 'allotted' spots. Whereas blacks and latinos are horribly underrepresented by population and are not as culturally supported, they don't have nor do they have to have such high stats to compete against other URMs. It has nothing to do with merit.

Representation by population is a good thing. More should be done for URMs and less for Asians.
 
Dr. Gigglez said:
i
on another note:
one perspective on the matter is that, one needs to keep in mind that Asian Americans and other minorities are MINORITIES in society, and by defnition are LESS privileged (= underprivileged) compared to majority populations.
Click to expand...

So, by the logic here, if your race is proportionally smaller in a given society, you are then underpriviledged? How do you explain Apartheid?
Could teh OP not at least read the 4000 AA threads that already exist? Criminey! He/she could just work hard and not play the race card, the way that the rest of the white "priviledged" people have to.
 
Dr. Gigglez said:
\to eternalrage: about your "wtf" comment: it is sad that Asian Americans buy into the model minority myth. it seems like flattery is buying complacency. go look up rates on high school drop-outs, gang involvement, and depression for Asian Americans. go look up what jobs most Asian Americans tend to get. go check out the % of Asian American promotions compared to every other group. about the media: How many Asian male broadasters do you see on tv? How many Asian males are portrayed on film that aren't martial artists? How many stories do you hear on Asian American poverty? physical and sexual abuse? and don't tell me these issues don't exist. open your eyes..

if you feel that Asian Americans are not less privileged than Caucasian Americans on an institutional level, you are ignoring the facts - and if you'd like i'll give you lists of citations of these studies and polls from very reputable journals, after my acceptance from medschool.


it is not my intention to "prove" any point.
read the post for what its worth.
Click to expand...

so what do you want? you want every news station in america to have a rob fukuzaki? you want the next double 007 to be asian instead of white? you want yuta tabuse to get some playing time in the NBA? are you mad because no one is lining up to buy jin tha MC's album and Eminem's albums sell like hotcakes?

i agree that some of those things you mention are issues...the thing is this...why are you posting these things on a premed message board? medical school admissions is not an area where asians are underprivileged, looked down upon, underrepresented, discriminated, whatever negative term you want to associate with it. medicine is not a field where asians are underprivileged.
 
I think it's useless to complain about something which you probably won't be able to change anyways. I mean if you work hard enough, and get in on your own merits then there is no need to complain about the benefits that a URM receives. BTW great post eternalrage:thumbup: .
 
OP: this may not be your intention. But if you have no real point other than to start a discussion about a controversial topic like this, and then come in to fan the flames every once in a while, then you really are dabbling in the dark trolling arts.

And the definition of minority does not include anything about a loss of privileges. So being a minority does not automatically mean that a group lacks privileges of a majority. What definition of minority are you using anyway?
 
Haemulon said:
What definition of minority are you using anyway?
Click to expand...


my definition of minority are those groups with less privilege than that of the dominant social group on an institutional level. plain and simple. it is more of this point than a numbers game.

it is interesting. i used to feel exactly what most of the posters/flamers/ragers of this post felt until i became educated on the subject. if you haven't read the studies and dedicated most of your undergrad career into investigating social dynamics then you have no right to attack what i'm saying.

and please read the entire thread before making another assumption or judgment. there is no point arguing on terms. i really wonder how most of the attackers of this thread will effectively empathize and deal with patients of multicultural backgrounds.


that's it. take it for what its worth.
 
Dr. Gigglez said:
it is interesting. i used to feel exactly what most of the posters/flamers/ragers of this post felt until i became educated on the subject. if you haven't read the studies and dedicated most of your undergrad career into investigating social dynamics then you have no right to attack what i'm saying.

and please read the entire thread before making another assumption or judgment. there is no point arguing on terms. i really wonder how most of the attackers of this thread will effectively empathize and deal with patients of multicultural backgrounds.
Click to expand...

apparently, i will become insensitive to patients who are multicultural and not effectively empathize with them. :rolleyes:

please.

besides...you come in here on your soapbox to do what? WHAT IS YOUR POINT!?!? you claim asians are discriminated against because they aren't part of AA, then you say you don't want asians to have AA. WHAT THE HELL DO YOU WANT FROM SDN AND THE WORLD?!?!

:laugh:

how exactly do you propose that asians gain "social privilege?"
 
Dr. Gigglez said:
my definition of minority are those groups with less privilege than that of the dominant social group on an institutional level. plain and simple. it is more of this point than a numbers game.

it is interesting. i used to feel exactly what most of the posters/flamers/ragers of this post felt until i became educated on the subject. if you haven't read the studies and dedicated most of your undergrad career into investigating social dynamics then you have no right to attack what i'm saying.

and please read the entire thread before making another assumption or judgment. there is no point arguing on terms. i really wonder how most of the attackers of this thread will effectively empathize and deal with patients of multicultural backgrounds.


that's it. take it for what its worth.
Click to expand...

actually we can, because arguing that asian-americans should be given the preferences that URM minorities are given is a less tenable position than arguing either against AA for URM's only or for AA for URM's only
 
Just flipping through the MSAR pages, you can see that Asians are definitely not under-represented at med schools. Here are the matriculation stats from a few random schools:

Asian / Total
Ohio State: 54/210
Michigan: 44/177
Keck: 43/171
Baylor: 55/168

That's about one quarter to one third of all students are Asians. Many, if not most, other schools have similar ratios. Is this what you would call "under-representation"?
 
silkworm said:
Just flipping through the MSAR pages, you can see that Asians are definitely not under-represented at med schools. Here are the matriculation stats from a few random schools:

Asian / Total
Ohio State: 54/210
Michigan: 44/177
Keck: 43/171
Baylor: 55/168

That's about one quarter to one third of all students are Asians. Many, if not most, other schools have similar ratios. Is this what you would call "under-representation"?
Click to expand...

Please, there is no need for stats and facts. Let the OP continue frothing in peace.
 
it is ridiculous to believe that Asians are naturally "smarter" and just get into graduate schools more than the other minorities....that is just a form of social Darwinism that is twisted to keep a minority in its place instead of traditionally elevating the majority class...
Click to expand...

:thumbup: :thumbup:
 
affirmative action is a good ideal to strive for, but is inherently flawed in its approach...the key term is "underrepresented minorities" - does that make any sense?!?! which minority is NOT underrrepresented? the one that works their butts off and makes it into gradschool?...ridiculous...
and again, where are the numbers and why are they relatively more obscure to find?
Click to expand...

Everything in this world is flawed...deal with it.
 
blacks, hispanics, and more are lumped in under the categorization of underrepresented minorities. this has nothing to do with privilege or minority status. URM status does not correlate to socioeconomic status; its purpose is to provide culturally competent care. studies have shown that patients of a certain race or ethnicity prefer doctors of that same race/ethnicity. there's a large deficit of black, hispanic, and other minority doctors for a huge immigrant population. on the other hand, there's a glut of asian doctors (not sure about the SE asian populations like cambodia, laos, thailand, malaysia, etc) for the small percentage of america that asians comprise.

sure its unfair. i feel empty handed while watching hispanic friends go on to med school with lower MCATs and GPAs than i do (i know i have a severe handicap on my application as well), but this topic has been beaten to death among asians. we feel we need to work harder just to get to the same level as other minorities do, yet we're not a minority. the definition of URM is clear and asians are definitely not underrepresented when it comes to academia and high-learning.

/thread
 
Dr. Gigglez said:
i NEVER said Asian Americans should get AA status. so to people like eternalrage, please take your rage somewhere else and stop assuming things and trying to find points to attack. have you ever thought that maybe KUMON or those other "Asian" schools you talked about are put into place b/c Asians NEED to have that advantage to compete effectively? to stand out?
Click to expand...

Yeah well I thought you were arguing for more AA for Asians from this:
Asian Americans are a minority in society as a whole...

but are NOT given minority privileges (which ALL minorities need) when in comes to education and health....why is that?
Click to expand...

And KUMON and Asian schools are only there for one purpose: so that xenophobic Asian parents can set their kids above the other races and also engage in sadistic traditions that involve the complete destruction of their children's youth with mass amounts of education. Ever see a Chinese kid get second place in a violin concert? That kid is gonna be beat like a dog surrounded by a pack of hungry Koreans.

to eternalrage: about your "wtf" comment: it is sad that Asian Americans buy into the model minority myth. it seems like flattery is buying complacency. go look up rates on high school drop-outs, gang involvement, and depression for Asian Americans.
Click to expand...
Maybe if you are talking about Philipinos or Vietnamese people yeah. But I don't think I've ever heard of an Asian saying something like "damn I'm the best oppressed!"

go look up what jobs most Asian Americans tend to get. go check out the % of Asian American promotions compared to every other group. about the media: How many Asian male broadasters do you see on tv? How many Asian males are portrayed on film that aren't martial artists?
Click to expand...
Until I see the actual numbers of Asians actually striving for these positions, I'm not convinced. First off, America is predominantly white. So the majority of these jobs will go to whites out of sheer statistics. Second, if Asians aren't even going for these jobs, well then that will make the number even smaller. As for Asians on film that aren't martial artists... the dude from Lost, the dude from Blade, Harold from Harold and Kumar. They are pioneers yes. But they are not pioneers because of racism. They are pioneers because

1.) Asian males can't act.
2.) They like martial arts roles.

How many stories do you hear on Asian American poverty? physical and sexual abuse? and don't tell me these issues don't exist. open your eyes
Click to expand...
These issues are rarely seen from a "Asian American" perspective. They are seen and recorded as statistics as "Amercian" issues. Race has little impact on these problems, and thus is not a factor for further classification. You don't hear about things like "Irish American" poverty or "Finnish American" poverty for that exact reason.

if you feel that Asian Americans are not less privileged than Caucasian Americans on an institutional level, you are ignoring the facts - and if you'd like i'll give you lists of citations of these studies and polls from very reputable journals, after my acceptance from medschool.
Click to expand...
I never said they weren't less priveleged. I said they have no need for any compensative measures. Of course they are less priveleged. America is still a caucasian country. If whites came over into Asia, they'd be the same way. You're arguing for acknowledgement of a no brainer.
 
And KUMON and Asian schools are only there for one purpose: so that xenophobic Asian parents can set their kids above the other races and also engage in sadistic traditions that involve the complete destruction of their children's youth with mass amounts of education. Ever see a Chinese kid get second place in a violin concert? That kid is gonna be beat like a dog surrounded by a pack of hungry Koreans.
Click to expand...

Hey I did Kumon!!!!!!!:D :D :D But I am not Asian...
 
I like to see affirmative action applied to professional sports... :laugh:
 
SitraAchra said:
I think the Tuskeegee experiment is a worse form of institutional discrimination than faux-problems concerning asians and affirmative action
Click to expand...

:thumbup: :thumbup::thumbup: :thumbup: Oh Snap!
 
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