Minorities in Pharmacy

If you fall into the "african american- black whatever you call it" spectrum....my guess would be to try a tbs. Howard/xavier

BlkPharm2be said:

Hello all... I wanted to know if any minorities, especially african american-black whatever name you desire to use...got into pharmacy school and which schools did they apply to and which schools were they accepted..and if it was possible for them to post their pcat and gpa.

I know for medical school minorities gpa and mcat scores are looked at on a different scale due to needed diversity in medical schools, so often lower mcats and gpa's are accepted in comparison to caucasians.

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Hi - I'm a p1 at Mercer - my entering class is 147 total. I don't know everybody by name in the class yet, but just from a cursory look at the class list, and counting people that I do know, I'd say that around 45-50 of my class members are something other than Caucasian (black, Hispanic, Asian, etc.). I can't speak for any of their stats, but clearly the school did a good job of identifying and recruiting qualified minority students. (the application pool last year was over 2,000, just to give some perspective on the %ages involved).

BlkPharm2be said:

Hello all... I wanted to know if any minorities, especially african american-black whatever name you desire to use...got into pharmacy school and which schools did they apply to and which schools were they accepted..and if it was possible for them to post their pcat and gpa.

I know for medical school minorities gpa and mcat scores are looked at on a different scale due to needed diversity in medical schools, so often lower mcats and gpa's are accepted in comparison to caucasians.

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At the begining of p1 year we had 2 afroamericans and 1 african. Now (p2) both afroamericans are gone. So my message to you would be don't focus too much about gpa's and pcat's, coz pharm. school shows quite nicely who got into it based on their intelligence and who based on their skin color.

konkan said:

At the begining of p1 year we had 2 afroamericans and 1 african. Now (p2) both afroamericans are gone. So my message to you would be don't focus too much about gpa's and pcat's, coz pharm. school shows quite nicely who got into it based on their intelligence and who based on their skin color.

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wow

UF doesn't have a spot for race on their application. Admission is based on GPA and PCAT stats. The school is tough and if they let in people with lesser stats because of something ridiculous like skin color, then those people would most likely not make it.

If you're just more comfortable with others of your own race, then do like the above poster said and apply to a historically black pharmacy school.

I don't agree with lowering the standards for anyone. This just perpetuates the myth that blacks aren't smart enough. This would piss me off if I was black.

UNC Class of 2010 stats:

11 students in the ECSU/UNC-CH Partnership program

4 Male, 7 Female

2 Black, 7 White, 1 Other, 1 Unknown

Anson, Durham, Forsyth, Iredell, Onslow, Pasquotank, Union, Wake and Wayne Counties and the state of Ohio

8 degreed, 3 non-degreed



140 students at UNC Chapel Hill

104 resident, 36 non-resident

48 Male, 92 Female

12 Black, 96 White, 2 American Indian, 12 Asian, 2 Hispanic

16 Unknown/Other

38 NC counties and 21 states

90 degreed, 50 non-degreed


At the UNC campus, 28/140 are minority. At ECSU, 3/11 are minority. That's about 20-25%. I don't know if that's similar to the general population or not, or if that is above or below the relative % of minorities that applied.

BlkPharm2be said:

Rxlynn....
So if you are willing to share...what university did you attend undergrad, were you in state or out of state...and what were your pcat and gpa...also what others schools did you apply to

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Sorry if I was misleading - I'm not a minority.

BlkPharm2be said:

Well I know many students who are african american- black...only a few in pharmacy...but many in medical...and it is not that one are lowering standards, but looking at the schools that are available, starting at elementary and high school, coming from different socioeconomic backgrounds, and how much taxes are going towards your school and community does play a major role, especially if many in your community do not pay taxes..ie in some cases thats why affirmative action exists, and thats why many schools like to broadcast how "diverse" they are.

It is not to say that blacks are inferior, cause trust and believe that is not the case, however the background and community into which you are raised and schools that were attended does play a huge role, as in any school..as well as college someone having a 4.0 at lets say Wash U is a hell of a lot different from someone having a 4.0 at a community college or a lesser known state school.

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yes. that is why it is important that you highlight this in your application, either in a question that directly asks what socio economic factors adversely affected your education, or one that asks for any "extenuating circumstances" . A lot of minorities that are educated in poorly funded schools and come from low-income homes will have an advantage over their caucasian counterparts, IF they can prove how they've overcome these adversities. and if they have a strong application.

b.t.w some pharmacy schools don't use affirmative action. that's what the "extenuating circumstances" are for nowadays.

Can someone PLEASE tell me: what is an AFROamerican?!!!!!?!!!!! And please note that there is a difference b/w those that are Black AMERICAN and those that are Black from other countries - ie. africa, the west indies, europe, etc. For so many of US to have such high gpa's and pcat scores we certainly are IGNORANT when it comes to race relations as it pertains to and relates to education...especially higher education in this "all men are created (and treated) equal" society that we call America!!! AND CAN SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHAT AN AFRO AMERICAN IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you don't know what you are talking about with regards to "skin color" when it pertains to higher education...better yet, if you haven't experienced what it is like to be a Black American pursuing higher education in this country, then keep your ignorant comments to yourself. And what is an AFROamercan!!!!!

UN4GETTABLE said:

And what is an AFROamercan!!!!!

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I can understand people getting confused with all the terminology. I believe that the term Afro American was what blacks said they wanted to be called back in the 70's. Black was the preferred term in the 60's. African American came about later on (90's?). It's really hard to remember.

Why not stick to proper terms and just describe race instead of continents.
Caucasian (white) & Negro (black). Whites don't refer to themselves as European Americans.

To me an African American is a person who was born in Africa, immigrated here and got their citizenship.

hmm dgroulx, i don't believe the term "negro" has been used since the 50's. I'm not black, but I would damn well assume that term is just as offensive to black people as it would be to myself if someone referred to me as a beaner.

I am also a minority and got into pharm. school. I see why some schools seek diversity and why it's so important to have people from certain groups to meet the needs in our community. I also agree that most schools don't lower their standards just because you belong to a different race because they want qualified applicants who can endure their program. However, different races imply different socioeconomic issues and educational opportunities. By stating that you had to overcome these hardships during your academic life, it might be understandable that your education success was hindered by these problems. Whether you have the potential to do well in pharmacy school is more up to the admission committee when evaluating your application and interviewing you.
What I am saying is, try not to focus too much on how your skin color is going to affect your application, but instead on the difficulties that you had to face and what you have learned from this so you can apply these lessons/qualities to succeed in pharm. school.
As for myself, I really worked on my application, had good ECs, pharmacy experience both in clinical and retail, research experience, great recommendations, GPA 3.2, PCAT 78%.
Oh btw, I'm latino.

sprinkle0420 said:

hmm dgroulx, i don't believe the term "negro" has been used since the 50's. I'm not black, but I would damn well assume that term is just as offensive to black people as it would be to myself if someone referred to me as a beaner.

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But, negro is the equivalent term to caucasian. It shouldn't be offensive since it is the correct term for that race. Beaner is a slang term. Cracker is the slang term for whites. I won't go into the many names given to blacks & jews. That's why I thought using the correct terminology would be easier.

I'm a jew and have been called many things when I was younger. We were singled out in school and picked on (1960's). I was working a concession stand during a USF game 2 years ago. We sold Hebrew National hot dogs. A man came up and was angry that the jews had their own hot dogs and refused to buy a "jew dog". I'm old enough to remember people refusing to eat food that was served by a black person. Prejudice sucks.

I believe that the term negro could be offensive to some. It all depends on the person though. You could call me a negro and I would not care. I also know some people who would be ready to fight if they were called negro. I received a Negro Achievement Award from my school for a high gpa.

konkan said:

At the begining of p1 year we had 2 afroamericans and 1 african. Now (p2) both afroamericans are gone. So my message to you would be don't focus too much about gpa's and pcat's, coz pharm. school shows quite nicely who got into it based on their intelligence and who based on their skin color.

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Hey Guy...If only 3 blacks were accepted to your pharmacy school then I dont think their skin color had anything to do with it.

I was going to stay out of this thread because usually when anyone posts a title like "minorities in pharmacy" for what reasons that I am now about to respond to.

Dgroulx, just to let you know, the word negro is not equivalent to referring to someone as black, nor is it even remotely PC to use this term--ESPECIALLY in 2006. When your words have the potential to be read by a mixed audience, of which you have no idea how they may feel about you using that term, I suggest you refrain from it. As a black woman I was offended.

Konkan, I love how you have made broad generalizations about the blacks in your pharmacy class. I could give you some credit if you at least had more than two people to base your very stereotypical opinion on.

Blkpharm, from a black person to another I commend you for making efforts to go to pharmacy school and better yourself. Wish you the best of luck.

collinisem said:

I Dgroulx, just to let you know, the word negro is not equivalent to referring to someone as black, nor is it even remotely PC to use this term--ESPECIALLY in 2006.

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Hmm. That's odd. This group is alive and well in 2006, and doesn't seem to see a problem with the word negro

Is it only offensive when a white person says it? If so, what's up with that?! I'm not trying to be an ass, I'm really curious.

I don't think dgroulx meant to offend.

collinisem said:

Dgroulx, just to let you know, the word negro is not equivalent to referring to someone as black, nor is it even remotely PC to use this term--ESPECIALLY in 2006. When your words have the potential to be read by a mixed audience, of which you have no idea how they may feel about you using that term, I suggest you refrain from it. As a black woman I was offended.

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I'm sorry to have offended you. That is the term I learned in biology as the correct latin name for your race. It's a shame that is has taken on a negative meaning. Maybe it's time for a new latin term.

Edit: I just did some research on new terms. Apparently, I'm not caucasian either. The new terms are European, African and Asian. Those in Australia got left out.

DHG, I understand that how blacks choose to identify themselves can be very confusing. Especially if you're someone who isn't black. You will find that many blacks feel differently about the usage of certain terms used to describe our skin color. I'm sure you've probably heard some blacks refer to themselves and each other as negro, n***a, and other slang terms. I can't speak for what other black people do, only for myself. But I will say that I do not in any shape or form support the use of the terms negro or n***a no matter who it cames from--black, white, asian, anyone. That being said, I definitley think that the UNCF needs to get a new name. The term negro to me sounds so Jim Crow. I just don't like it because it reminds me of segregation. That's the stand that I take on it personally.

And dgroulx, in my biology class I also learned that blacks were to be called negro (so I guess I can understand why you used the word). Our book taught that there are "three great races"--which I also think is a crock --Mongoloid, Caucosoid, and Negroid. It's incredibly foolish to try to lump all of humanity into three races. But whatever. Didn't mean to hijack this thread so I'll be leaving now. Carry on.

collinisem said:

It's incredibly foolish to try to lump all of humanity into three races.

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I guess its just better to ask... I always just say "black" and that seems to be OK with most people. Thanks for your thoughts.

BlkPharm2be said:

Hello all... I wanted to know if any minorities, especially african american-black whatever name you desire to use...got into pharmacy school and which schools did they apply to and which schools were they accepted..and if it was possible for them to post their pcat and gpa.

I know for medical school minorities gpa and mcat scores are looked at on a different scale due to needed diversity in medical schools, so often lower mcats and gpa's are accepted in comparison to caucasians.

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I have nothing to say about all other comments but "read the originator's post." Do any subsequent responses pertain to the originator's inquiry?

Honestly, BlkPharm2be, your second paragraph has singlehandedly elicited such responses. If you dont want off-topic (junk) remarks, I feel that you should not include this paragraph again!

pharmv said:

Hey Guy...If only 3 blacks were accepted to your pharmacy school then I dont think their skin color had anything to do with it.

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Because 2 out of 3 after first year were out, I think it had.

All I'll say on the matter is that if certain terms are offensive to certain people, they need to distance themselves from them instead of embracing them. Case in point, the United Negro College Fund and National Association for the Advancement of Colored People are both alive and well, yet the terms negro and colored are considered offensive. If these terms are in fact politically incorrect and offensive, please contact these organizations and have them change their names.

http://www.uncf.org/
http://www.naacp.org/home/

As far as Afro American, please stop being ignorant, their is a newspaper in Baltimore called The Afro American (http://www.afro.com/) and their are dozens of universities throughout the United States where one can obtain a degree in Afro American Studies. Just do a Google search for Afro American Studies. And please stop assuming everyone is a racist.

I just refer to everyone as "American." Seems to me that is what we all are.

As far as the whole minority thing goes, I don't care if you are black, white, red, green, or purple with yellow polka dots, I want you to be the smartest person on the planet and really damn good at your job when you tell me how to dose my kid's medication that I just picked up from your pharmacy. Patients don't care what your socio-economic background is. Patients don't care what hardships you had earlier in your life. Patients don't care if you went to a rich private school or run down public one. All patients care about is that you know what you are doing. If you come from a poor academic background (for whatever the reason) or just don't have the mental capicity to BE A PHARMACIST then you may need to take a hard look in the mirror and decide if this is right for you. We are not applying to be assitant managers at the Home Depot, we are going to be taking care of people's lives.

dgroulx said:

Edit: I just did some research on new terms. Apparently, I'm not caucasian either. The new terms are European, African and Asian. Those in Australia got left out.

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I can no longer call my cat a cat. She prefers to go by the term feline-american.

Ok, I've had enough. This forum should end. What's the point of future posts on this subject? Answer: NOTHING

[QUOTE=dgroulx;4127680]I can understand people getting confused with all the terminology. I believe that the term Afro American was what blacks said they wanted to be called back in the 70's. Black was the preferred term in the 60's. African American came about later on (90's?). It's really hard to remember.

Why not stick to proper terms and just describe race instead of continents.
Caucasian (white) & Negro (black). Whites don't refer to themselves as European Americans.

To me an African American is a person who was born in Africa, immigrated here and got their citizenship.[/QUOTE]

Confused...?? you've got to be kidding me. People who are responding are in pharmacy school or applying. If they are confused by the term african american being the "accepted" term for "blacks", how in the world did they get through chem, A&P, etc...?? More importantly, how will they keep all the drugs they need to know "straight"???

damon, i am definitely NOT ignorant to the term "afro" american. i obviously knew what or who, rather, the term was directed toward. it just amazes me how ignorant people are when it comes to Black people in america! i never called konkan a racist, i said that his/her comments were ignorant, and i stand by that. he/she has NO clue as to why those 2 people in his/her class are not there this year. and to make such an ignorant comment like he/she did is ridiculous! so as far as i'm concerned, konkan, "judge not that ye may not be judged." like i said, until you have experienced what it is like to pursue a higher education as a Black american in this country, don't comment on it.

i hope none of you EVER find it okay to call a Black person negro, colored, afro-american or any other derogatory term that folks (other than themselves) have put on them. specifically the term afro american has nothing to do with the culture of Black people in america - it directly has to do with a HAIR STYLE that was once popular. so to me, that is offensive as Black people in this country have a strong culture that ought not to be minimized to a hair style!!! and what Black people call themselves and each other has nothing to do with you if you are not Black. so don't try that one either. the fact of the matter is, is that we are not yet 150 years out of slavery in this country and many americans still have slave mentality. let us not forget that the only subculture in this country that is not here on their own will are Black americans who are decendents of slaves. so, in my humble opinion, Black american people have an obligation to each other to protect their culture and to never forget from where they came, where they are and where they are going as is pertians to EVERY aspect of their american lives. BlkPharm2be has a legitimate reason and concern for posting his/her original question. but if you are not a Black american, i wouldn't expect you to understand.

All I'll say on the matter is that if certain terms are offensive to certain people, they need to distance themselves from them instead of embracing them. Case in point, the United Negro College Fund and National Association for the Advancement of Colored People are both alive and well, yet the terms negro and colored are considered offensive. If these terms are in fact politically incorrect and offensive, please contact these organizations and have them change their names

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First of all, the UNCF and NAACP are NOT the spokespeople for the black community. Part of the problem is that people think that just because one organization aligns itself with black americans that all blacks agree with how they conduct themselves and the ways that they choose to be represented. Not so. We are individuals, and yes I am black and yes I wholeheartedly think that these two organizations need to remove the words colored and negro from their names. For the most part, they do good things for the black community, but the name needs to change. And I love how you assume #1 that I have not contacted these organizations and #2 that any organization who has been in effect for as long as these two have is just going to up and change its name because I drop them an e-mail or petition them to change it. Yeah right.

Your first sentence is again full of assumptions. This is basically how it reads: "If you all [black people] are offended by those terms then you need to quit embracing these organizations." This is why I keep saying that one black is not the spokesperson for the whole race. I am offended by the terms and I have not aligned myself with either of these organizations, not just because of the name in itself but because I never felt the need to. Maybe all the people who are involved in NAACP and UNCF have no problem with the name, but I don't know you'd have to ask them. Again, we are individuals.

And I have to agree with Tennisboy in that the second paragraph in the OP should not have been included. I think it's great that blacks are out there pursuing things such as pharmacy. However, don't look for a handout or an easy way in just because you are black. We should be working just as hard if not harder than others to prove that we have earned our place. Anything less than that further perpetuates the stereotype that blacks are not smart enought to succeed.

@ UN4GETTABLE I agree with everthing in your post.

BlkPharm2be, do you know what schools you are applying to?

Honestly, I didn't want to reply to this thread initially but I must be honest with you all. African Americans need to step it up. I don't understand why they feel that everything has to be handed to them just because they are a minority group. I don't mean to say that all African Americans are like that but majority are. Even in the so called Historical Black Colleges, they still watch others take their positions everytime. I know what I 'm saying because I attend a HBC and 40% of my class are Asians and another 30% are Africans. We have about 6 Caucasians and then African American. But the standard is lowest for them still, I know one of them had like 19% on the PCAT and the rest of them (maybe with a few exceptions) are not Pharmacy school material. I don't care what you have been through in your life, it should serve as a motivation factor for you to succeed. I don't think most of them have gone through worst situations than most African have, but they are one of the most determined people I have ever seen. I will like to see African Americans have the same drive to succeed. I know some of them will do well if they stop taking the easy way out (quiting)
That's my 2 cents

Please, please, please - Stop this forum! My post should be the last of this forum.

This forum has not been productive - it is just a shout match. Unfortunately, I'm not surprised in reading all of these comments because I know that racism will always be alive and well. But we do not have to call attention to it!

Stop clicking on the thread if you don't want to read any more.

Well there are other minorities, besides blacks or african-americans, I am an hispanic American or Putero Rican, which ever you perfer. I was wondering Well Pharmacy schools factor in my race? because i think thats just wrong. Just because you are an minority does not mean you should get in before anybody else. I feel everyone should be treated at the same level. I do think that some pharmacists need some people skills though, because the ones I ran into are grouches

TennisBoy78 said:

Please, please, please - Stop this forum! My post should be the last of this forum.

This forum has not been productive - it is just a shout match. Unfortunately, I'm not surprised in reading all of these comments because I know that racism will always be alive and well. But we do not have to call attention to it!

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Did you try the "report post" button. It will get a moderator's attention so the thread can be locked.

Pharm47 said:

Did you try the "report post" button. It will get a moderator's attention so the thread can be locked.

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Nonsense, this forum is not offensive, it is just not productive. I will refrain from reading future posts to this forum. Have at it kidos!

Pharm47 said:

Did you try the "report post" button. It will get a moderator's attention so the thread can be locked.

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Why does the thread need to be blocked? TennisBoy seems to think there has been a lot of "yelling" but I don't see that... I see discussion. Hmm.

The OP and others wanted to know if SOPs use race as a determining factor in admissions. This is a valid question. There has been no name-calling... this thread is tamer than the "Do Pharmacists use the title DR" as far as I can see people are being civil here...

EDIT: OK TennisBoy I see your above post. I agree, it hasn't been very productive! I don't know anything about what goes on in admissions committees, so all I could do was post my school's stats for this year. Maybe someone else knows more.

@ Taken2, while you have made some incredibly broad generalizations ("I don't understand why they feel that everything has to be handed to them just because they are a minority group"), there is some truth to what you have written. Please understand that when you refer to an entire group/race of people as "they" that you are being extremely close-minded. We don't all think or do the same things. I really wish people would stop seeing blacks and other minority groups as a collective "person" and start seeing us as individucals.

Back to your post: I frequent a few forums on a regular basis, one of them being an all black female forum. One of the topics that recently came up is why african-americans specifically are underperforming when compared with people of other races and geographic regions. And the evidence is there. If anyone is skeptical, I can try to dig up the stats from those forums, but as a black woman what I can say is even in my own experience it has been african-americans who perform below our peers.

Now there are many theories as to what may be causing this to occur. Some people think that there is a cultural barrier and that standardized tests (like the PCAT) are culturally biased, therefore african-americans do not do as well. School systems in underpriveleged neighborhoods also play a role--clearly if a student is not properly educated they won't have the necessary tools to succeed in a career like pharmacy.

Programs like affirmative action (AA) were initially put into place to "level" the playing field for all minorities. For blacks, in particular, slavery set us back a good deal as things were never "separate but equal." So I do think that AA has been necessary to give us a chance to get ahead. That being said, now more than ever the opportunity for success is practically being handed to young blacks and minorities all over the country. I think that one of the main problems is that too many blacks are concerned with living up to what they see in rap videos and embracing the "street life." It's not cool to make A's and do better for yourself--and a lot of blacks just don't even think that they can. And I can say this because I've seen it with my own eyes. But this is not to say that all African-americans think this way. I have seen many doing the exact opposite and excelling at practically everything that they touch.

@ TennisBoy, we should call attention to racism. Really the only way to fight it is to talk about it. Because racism is essentially born out of one group misunderstanding another group. But if you talk about it, then people will understand each other and the hate can stop.

I use "black" as well, if necessary. African-American doesn't apply to many of the people in my class. A few people are flat-out African. But I don't generally refer to the ethnic or "racial" background of people. They're just people. All are equally deserving of respect until it's proven otherwise.

From what I've observed of my class, the diversity is substantial. We have people from all over the place. All seem equally qualified to be there. I know that my school actively seeks out a wide variety of people, but I don't know that it's through any kind of quota system. In fact, that would really surprise me.

well, i don't think that this a useless forum. i, personally, have learned a lot from here...and dare i say that some of you have, too. i will say, that it is downright SCARY that some of you are training to become licensed pharmacists in what ever town you live in. i bid each of you good luck with your pcat's, gpa's, application processes, journey through pharmacy school and eventually your chosen career.

i'm hispanic and to my last recollection, the term "negro" is spanish for the color "black". in the spanish language used in latin america, people are classified as "Blanco" for white, "negro" for black, "mestizo" for native/european decent and "mulato" for native/african decent.

nightwing said:

Well there are other minorities, besides blacks or african-americans, I am an hispanic American or Putero Rican, which ever you perfer. I was wondering Well Pharmacy schools factor in my race? because i think thats just wrong. Just because you are an minority does not mean you should get in before anybody else. I feel everyone should be treated at the same level. I do think that some pharmacists need some people skills though, because the ones I ran into are grouches

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i totally agree with you!

I have read all of the post, and just wanted to buzz in w/ my .02 cents.

For just a little background - My culture is considered a minority (Jewish) even though my color is not. I just wanted to illustrate a parallel. I feel strongly about the strength of community and what it means for people as a whole.

Jewish people (Hebrews) were enslaved from before the birth of Christ (if you follow that) until around the late 1940's. Since that time our one country has been constantly attacked/ invaded. I would say that the Jewish people of the world have had a pretty rough go, just like those from Africa.

Most notably - everything Jewish people created (most were european) prior to the 1930's was completely loss by the end of WWII.

Yet you dont see anyone questioning a Jewish person's ability to accel. If you go by public opinion (and that's what most stereotypes are), most people believe Jewish people to be highly intelligent and have business savvy. There is not an affirmative action slot for a Jewish student at your college. You wont find any handouts for my people. The reason being we simply dont need it.

The success Jewish people have comes from our families and our work ethic. It was never a question whether or not I would be a highly educated person. I was expected to earn high grades. I was expected to get a job and earn my way. My parent's are not rich, but they are hard working and provided most of what I needed until the age of sixteen.

Its obvious to me why my older brother is a doctor, and why eventually I will be. I have the drive, and God gave me the intellect and the strength to pursue it.

If Jewish people can do it, after having been enslaved for thousands of years - I see no reason that any other group cannot have similar results. More importantly - I see no reason why those groups cannot find success without the government forcing it upon the people of this country. To this I am simply referring to affirmative action in college admissions and college grants. My people didnt need it - and nor do yours. The only way equality is established is by the members of society believing each other are equal. By accepting grants, receiving different admissions criteria (all public universities do), and generally using the governemnt crutch - you will never remove the stereotype of inequality. Thats a fact - like it or not

~above~

Sorry the post was so long - I guess it just stroke a nerve

aboveliquidice said:

I have read all of the post, and just wanted to buzz in w/ my .02 cents.

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your post was more than .02 cents. it was a quarter!

good point!

bottom line, if you work hard and dedicate yourself to excel in anything that you want to do, then you will have a good chance of achieving that goal. our society is setup in a manner that anyone from any background or culture has the opportunity to succeed.

@ liquidice, I agree with most of what you have said, and can empathize with you in the fact that your people have a history of oppresion just as mine have. I've often wondered why other groups who have gone through oppression seem to get back on their feet and fluorish, while a lot of african-americans are still struggling. The only thing that I can think of is the community. I don't know many Jewish people, but from what I have seen the strength of the community is very important to the culture (correct me if I'm wrong). The black-american COMMUNITY is not united. It's very divided, and I think that started when slavery was abolished (but my theories on that are for a whole other discussion). Point being, the community is not strong, or at least not as strong as it should be. Part of the reason is because we were forced to leave our homeland. We came to this continent having to forsake everything we knew, our culture, our way of speaking...everything--and we were forced to assimilate to the ways of, well...white people. I wasn't a victim of slavery (thank God) but it still hurts to know that I can't really trace my ancestry back to know where I'm really from because my people were forced to leave Africa. I know I have roots there, but which country am I from? which tribe? I'll never know.

I think that at one point affirmative action was absolutely necessary for blacks as a whole. It's not fair to enslave a people, not even educate them and treat them like crap, decide to set them free and they're supposed to have the same odds of making it as someone else? It's not going to happen. So, yes at one point we needed affirmative action, and I believe it should still exist not just for blacks but for anyone who is living in poverty or goes to a crappy school and wants to make a better life for themselves. It's so easy for people to say, "well, you got a bad hand, life's not fair" and go on living their cozy comfy life (and I'm not saying anyone here said that, just in general). And I know that many people have made it without help, but just because they have doesn't mean help shouldn't be offered. That's just my opinion. For those that want to slack and receive a handout because of their skin color, I say that's a shame because that person isn't doing anything to eradicate stereotypes and advance the EFFORTS put in by their own people. But to me, the socioeconomic barrier is much bigger than the race barrier--because you all know the saying, and it's true: the rich keep getting rich and the poor keep getting poorer.