AA totally out of control?

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LADoc00

LADoc00

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I just started pulling up people from mdapplicants with similar numbers and different races and the differential from Asian--->Minority is totally insane. Like the difference from all rejections to being accepted nearly everywhere. Is it really that dramatic?

How can one person be rejected without interviews from 25 schools and another be accepted to everywhere including Harvard with identical numbers?

That completely defies the supposed 'meritocracy', correct? Is everything built on ivory tower lies! oh noes!!!
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Some of those mdapplicants may be fake. Don't trust everything on the internet! :D
 
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LADoc00 said:
I just started pulling up people from mdapplicants with similar numbers and different races and the differential from Asian--->Minority is totally insane. Like the difference from all rejections to being accepted nearly everywhere. Is it really that dramatic?

How can one person be rejected without interviews from 25 schools and another be accepted to everywhere including Harvard with identical numbers?

That completely defies the supposed 'meritocracy', correct? Is everything built on ivory tower lies! oh noes!!!
Click to expand...

You and the URM with similar stats cannot possibly be in the same page. You dont know the kinds of hardships these applicants have faced on their journey towards becoming physician. There is a reason for everything. My two cents:cool:
 
LADoc00 said:
I just started pulling up people from mdapplicants with similar numbers and different races and the differential from Asian--->Minority is totally insane. Like the difference from all rejections to being accepted nearly everywhere. Is it really that dramatic?

How can one person be rejected without interviews from 25 schools and another be accepted to everywhere including Harvard with identical numbers?

That completely defies the supposed 'meritocracy', correct? Is everything built on ivory tower lies! oh noes!!!
Click to expand...

:sleep:
 
Oschemi said:
You and the URM with similar stats cannot possibly be in the same page. You dont know the kinds of hardships these applicants have faced on their journey towards becoming physician. There is a reason for everything. My two cents:cool:
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No, no, no. There are plenty of very wealthy URMs that havent had to work a day in their life for anything.
 
TPROrgoTutor said:
No, no, no. There are plenty of very wealthy URMs that havent had to work a day in their life for anything.
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I am sitting across the table from one right now. But that is neither here nor there. Get some popcorn folks, I am ready for some fireworks.
 
TPROrgoTutor said:
No, no, no. There are plenty of very wealthy URMs that havent had to work a day in their life for anything.
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but they are talking about students with similar stats. It could be that the URM had a better interview, or better ec's or whatever.
 
So I read the title of this thread and my first thought was: "Alcoholics Anonymous is out of control?" ;)

Here's a few ways that this could happen (feel free to add more, you witty SDNers, you know very well that it's the best possible use of this thread!)

1. They have started going door-to-door, like the Jehovah's Witnesses, on weekend mornings when they figure people are likely to be hung over and therefore receptive to the AA message?

2. They have bought a compound in Montana and stocked it with guns, smokes, and Shirley Temples? Call in the ATF... no, wait, I guess you'd just need the TF...

3. They have published a series of books in which sober people all ascend to heaven and leave everyone else back on earth... with all the booze in the world and no moral guidance! (Droves of people leave AA after reading these books, hoping to be among the "Blessedly Left Behind".)

4. They've started blowing up bars and liquor stores, using homemade explosives?
 
Dead%20Horse.jpg
 
trustwomen said:
So I read the title of this thread and my first thought was: "Alcoholics Anonymous is out of control?" ;)

Here's a few ways that this could happen (feel free to add more, you witty SDNers, you know very well that it's the best possible use of this thread!)

1. They have started going door-to-door, like the Jehovah's Witnesses, on weekend mornings when they figure people are likely to be hung over and therefore receptive to the AA message?

2. They have bought a compound in Montana and stocked it with guns, smokes, and Shirley Temples? Call in the ATF... no, wait, I guess you'd just need the TF...

3. They have published a series of books in which sober people all ascend to heaven and leave everyone else back on earth... with all the booze in the world and no moral guidance! (Droves of people leave AA after reading these books, hoping to be among the "Blessedly Left Behind".)

4. They've started blowing up bars and liquor stores, using homemade explosives?
Click to expand...

5. They've quietly assumed control of over half our nation's wealth and placed their representatives at nearly every level of government
 
If the point of this thread is to point out that URMs generally get in with lower stats, well...duh.
 
Oschemi said:
You and the URM with similar stats cannot possibly be in the same page. You dont know the kinds of hardships these applicants have faced on their journey towards becoming physician. There is a reason for everything. My two cents:cool:
Click to expand...

There are lots of dirt poor asians that are screwed over by AA in a way that is deplorable.
 
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TexasFool said:
There are lots of dirt poor asians that are screwed over by AA in a way that is deplorable.
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i could be categorized as such, but i'm not going to get pissed off about it. life sucks. nothing you can do about it. OP, stop beating a dead horse!
 
LADoc00 said:
How can one person be rejected without interviews from 25 schools and another be accepted to everywhere including Harvard with identical numbers?
Click to expand...
You're already a physician, finishing up residency, and trolling premed boards about affirmative action? Kinda creepy...
 
there are always going to be pple that get in w/sub-par stats for "unfair" reasons. but once you're in, u have to look at the person sitting next to u in that first lecture, shake their hand, and realize that the 2 of u are equally likely to be the next world-renowned surgeon etc. i think what the OP was getting at though is that it is (however unintentional) slightly obnoxious when pple parade the fact that they are getting interviews and acceptances typically out of range. i don't care of if its b/c they are URM, in-state, dating the dean, cheated their way thru college, lucky caller #999, etc, it just doesn't make the avg applicant feel warm and fuzzy. worse still, it promotes stereotypes that are unfair to pple who have had to deal w/more than a fair share of stereotypes in their lifetime. so, in conclusion, pple who are anti-AA, realize it's there for a reason, even if u don't like the reason. more importantly think twice before u embarass yourself in medschool or at an interview by prejudging someone's credibility based on their race or last name or affiliation w/the school (though judge away if they are a big fat cheater).
 
HelenaP said:
5. They've quietly assumed control of over half our nation's wealth and placed their representatives at nearly every level of government
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...meaning that dry counties are just the beginning! Prepare for dry states, dry regions... mwahahaha!!!
 
Don't get your panty's in a bunch AA is something needed in admissions URM only represent like 4% you wonder why? Now imagine if there wasn't AA for so long blacks were not even allowed in these schools so relax it is needed.
 
yourmom25 said:
i could be categorized as such, but i'm not going to get pissed off about it. life sucks. nothing you can do about it. OP, stop beating a dead horse!
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He's not dead. He's just resting.
 
is a non-spanish speaking spaniard a minority?:thumbup:
 
and it's not fair that I'm a doctor's kid either. I get to be a lagacy app, and I've had a ton of connections for shadowing and such...

...life's not fair.
 
ONYX4000GT said:
is a non-spanish speaking spaniard a minority?:thumbup:
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In general, a European from Spain ("Spaniard") wouldn't be considered a URM because they're technically white. A Latino/a would include people from Brazil who speak Portugese, or consider a Caribbean minority who speaks Creole/ French/ Dutch.
 
HumbleMD said:
In general, a European from Spain ("Spaniard") wouldn't be considered a URM because they're technically white. A Latino/a would include people from Brazil who speak Portugese, or consider a Caribbean minority who speaks Creole/ French/ Dutch.
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Relax, he was joking. :confused:
 
baylormed said:
Relax, he was joking. :confused:
Click to expand...

Heh, I never reject the chance to educate others on the true diversity of Central/South America (it is my second major, after all). :)
 
HumbleMD said:
In general, a European from Spain ("Spaniard") wouldn't be considered a URM because they're technically white. A Latino/a would include people from Brazil who speak Portugese, or consider a Caribbean minority who speaks Creole/ French/ Dutch.
Click to expand...

You're wrong about this, actually. A Spanish kid (from Spain) from my high school applied URM to undergrads and was accepted everywhere because he was considered "Hispanic"; he had definitely not suffered from the traditional obstacles facing true URMs. In fact, the definition for Hispanic with regards to AA so far as I understand it is "having a Hispanic-sounding last name". People will milk the system for everything it's worth, and usually get away with it.
 
HumbleMD said:
Heh, I never reject the chance to educate others on the true diversity of Central/South America (it is my second major, after all). :)
Click to expand...

Has visitado sudamerica?
 
HumbleMD said:
Heh, I never reject the chance to educate others on the true diversity of Central/South America (it is my second major, after all). :)
Click to expand...

Right...it is my culture, actually. I try not to take things too seriously when it comes to uneducated comments regarding "Latinos" (I don't really like that word, but that might not mean anything as I hate all labels :rolleyes: ), although if something really hits home I can get quite passionate about it. :oops:
 
TexasFool said:
There are lots of dirt poor asians that are screwed over by AA in a way that is deplorable.
Click to expand...

There are certain minority groups such as the Vietnamese and Hmong who do not access to equal oppurtunities because of huge discrepencies in wealth and education. They also have experienced some degree of discrimination because many came into America as Vietnamese war refugees with absolutely nothing. AA is deplorable if solely racial considerations are used.
 
solitude said:
HumbleMD said:
In general, a European from Spain ("Spaniard") wouldn't be considered a URM because they're technically white. A Latino/a would include people from Brazil who speak Portugese, or consider a Caribbean minority who speaks Creole/ French/ Dutch.
Click to expand...
You're wrong about this, actually. A Spanish kid (from Spain) from my high school applied URM to undergrads and was accepted everywhere because he was considered "Hispanic"; he had definitely not suffered from the traditional obstacles facing true URMs. In fact, the definition for Hispanic with regards to AA so far as I understand it is "having a Hispanic-sounding last name". People will milk the system for everything it's worth, and usually get away with it.
Click to expand...
You're both right, if we take the correct usage of the two terms. The terms "Latino" and "Hispanic" get used interchangeably colloquially. Correctly used, Latino refers to Latin American origin, and Hispanic refers to Spanish blood line. So, now matter how pale the skin, you can't get any more Hispanic than a Spaniard. But a Spaniard from Spain is not "Latino" (although "Latin"), whereas a whitey of pure Spanish blood living in Mexico for generations is indeed a "Latino" (and "Hispanic" by default).

In proper usage, Latino means from Latin America. So, this would include portugese speaking Brazilians, spanish speaking Italian and German descendents in Argentina, etc. There is no race associated with Latino; you simply need to hail from Latin America. White folk of pure Spanish blood who have been in Mexico for 400 years are still considered Mexican (nationality) and Latino (geographic origin). White Spaniards from Spain are not "Latino" in American usage, although they are "Latin" like the French, Italians, Portuguese, etc. The term "Latin Lover" originally referred to hot studs from these regions, but has been recently co-opted by "Latinos" as well (who actually could be "Latin" if thier ancestors hail from any of these countries).

In proper usage, Hispanic means of Spanish descent. This includes any person living anywhere in the world who has Spanish (i.e. Spain) ancestry. So, this would not include most Brazilians or the tons of non-spanish white folk living in Argentina. A pure white person from Mexico would be Mexican by nationality, Hispanic by blood, and Latino by geographic origin. A half/half spaniard/native-mexican-indian would also qualify as all three. A pure native-mexican-indian would not, however, qualify as Hispanic -- only Mexican and Latino.
 
The difference between undergrad and med school is that we have interviews... I am pretty sure most adcoms can tell the difference between a Spaniard, mestizo, and Indian;) if a Spaniard shows dedication to the URM community and can speak Spanish I am pretty sure it will be a huge plus!
 
Wow well done, thanks! :thumbup:

GoodDoctor said:
You're both right, if we take the correct usage of the two terms. The terms "Latino" and "Hispanic" get used interchangeably colloquially. Correctly used, Latino refers to Latin American origin, and Hispanic refers to Spanish blood line. So, now matter how pale the skin, you can't get any more Hispanic than a Spaniard. But a Spaniard from Spain is not "Latino" (although "Latin"), whereas a whitey of pure Spanish blood living in Mexico for generations is indeed a "Latino" (and "Hispanic" by default).

In proper usage, Latino means from Latin America. So, this would include portugese speaking Brazilians, spanish speaking Italian and German descendents in Argentina, etc. There is no race associated with Latino; you simply need to hail from Latin America. White folk of pure Spanish blood who have been in Mexico for 400 years are still considered Mexican (nationality) and Latino (geographic origin). White Spaniards from Spain are not "Latino" in American usage, although they are "Latin" like the French, Italians, Portuguese, etc. The term "Latin Lover" originally referred to hot studs from these regions, but has been recently co-opted by "Latinos" as well (who actually could be "Latin" if thier ancestors hail from any of these countries).

In proper usage, Hispanic means of Spanish descent. This includes any person living anywhere in the world who has Spanish (i.e. Spain) ancestry. So, this would not include most Brazilians or the tons of non-spanish white folk living in Argentina. A pure white person from Mexico would be Mexican by nationality, Hispanic by blood, and Latino by geographic origin. A half/half spaniard/native-mexican-indian would also qualify as all three. A pure native-mexican-indian would not, however, qualify as Hispanic -- only Mexican and Latino.
Click to expand...
 
GoodDoctor said:
You're both right, if we take the correct usage of the two terms. ... A half/half spaniard/native-mexican-indian would also qualify as all three. A pure native-mexican-indian would not, however, qualify as Hispanic -- only Mexican and Latino.
Click to expand...

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
Now if only AMCAS, and other U.S. citizens (especially politicians) began to understand that race, ethnicity, and nationality are different concepts, and there's no easy way to neatly "group" and "label" those with ties to countries South of the U.S. border.

To really stir-up some folks' understanding of cultures in Central/South American and the Caribbean, Peru's former president was Japanese!
 
HumbleMD said:
:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
Now if only AMCAS, and other U.S. citizens (especially politicians) began to understand that race, ethnicity, and nationality are different concepts, and there's no easy way to neatly "group" and "label" those with ties to countries South of the U.S. border.

To really stir-up some folks' understanding of cultures in Central/South American and the Caribbean, Peru's former president was Japanese!
Click to expand...


hahah yeah :) many bigots use the Hispanic data as bait in order to insinuate that "minorities"/ "brown people” are taking over... But if you count Hispanic whites(48 percent of Hispanics) as white one realizes that "white people" constitute 77 percent of the population...
 
During undergrad, I had better stats all over than my best friend. We had the same ECs, rec letters from the same teachers, applied to the same schools. He was half-hispanic, and didn't even bother to talk about his other half (he didn't even consider himself hispanic). He got in everywhere he applied, except Yale. The best I got was waitlist at UPenn.
Some other kid from my high school was this rich, and I mean really rich kid who had come over to the US when she was 10 or 9 years old. And I can't really see if she had truly suffered. Anywho, she got in to all the high places too because she put hispanic.
Now I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, but let's stop and think for a second.
If these people got into the high places not because of their merits but their race, then this only breeds hatred amnogst the rest of the population.
For all I know, if I do get into med school, whenever I see a URM student I'm not going to be so sure if they got there out of their own merits and brainpower. I'm not going to be giving them the credit that I'll give let's say my Asian or Indian or White or whatever non-URM classmates. I know this sounds wrong, but I have been hurt by AA and so have many others.
 
Hednej said:
During undergrad, I had better stats all over than my best friend. We had the same ECs, rec letters from the same teachers, applied to the same schools. He was half-hispanic, and didn't even bother to talk about his other half (he didn't even consider himself hispanic). He got in everywhere he applied, except Yale. The best I got was waitlist at UPenn.
Some other kid from my high school was this rich, and I mean really rich kid who had come over to the US when she was 10 or 9 years old. And I can't really see if she had truly suffered. Anywho, she got in to all the high places too because she put hispanic.
Now I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, but let's stop and think for a second.
If these people got into the high places not because of their merits but their race, then this only breeds hatred amnogst the rest of the population.
For all I know, if I do get into med school, whenever I see a URM student I'm not going to be so sure if they got there out of their own merits and brainpower. I'm not going to be giving them the credit that I'll give let's say my Asian or Indian or White or whatever non-URM classmates. I know this sounds wrong, but I have been hurt by AA and so have many others.
Click to expand...

:laugh: :laugh: okay:rolleyes:
 
I say we wrap up this thread and lay off it for a while. Let's speak at the polls on November 7th (I know Michigan is proposing a law to ban AA) and then talk about it afterwards rather than wasting the precious calories per keystroke and debating it in a forum that has no bearing on the real world or public policy.
 
NonTradMed said:
Some of those mdapplicants may be fake. Don't trust everything on the internet! :D
Click to expand...

exactly!!!!

He is a good representation of how and why America has managed to vote in and keep Bush in office!!!!...too damn gullible
 
Hednej said:
If these people got into the high places not because of their merits but their race, then this only breeds hatred amnogst the rest of the population.
For all I know, if I do get into med school, whenever I see a URM student I'm not going to be so sure if they got there out of their own merits and brainpower. I'm not going to be giving them the credit that I'll give let's say my Asian or Indian or White or whatever non-URM classmates. I know this sounds wrong, but I have been hurt by AA and so have many others.
Click to expand...

It's hilarious how often people make these posts. "AA made me a racist! AA made me hate minorities!!!!" Let's just be honest, people. If you think you're better than the (insert minority here), no amount of legislation will be enough to shield your bigotry/sense of entitlement/whatever. The only thing "breeding hatred" around here is whatever was inside you to begin with. Hate blacks, Hispanics, Native Americans, or any other group of people you barely know all you want - but have the balls to admit you think of "those people" differently because of something inside you, and not because of that fist-shaking AA. Stop hiding your bigotry behind cheap excuses and come out with it. You sort of do already with these posts (ether^or^ is the perennial "I hate URMs so much because of AA" poster on SDN, by the way. You guys should get to know each other).
 
Rafa said:
It's hilarious how often people make these posts. "AA made me a racist! It was AA!" Let's just be honest, people. If you think you're better than the (insert minority here), no amount of legislation will be enough to shield your bigotry/sense of entitlement/whatever. The only thing "breeding hatred" around here is whatever was inside you to begin with. Hate blacks, Hispanics, Native Americans, or any other group of people you barely know all you want - but have the balls to admit you think of "those people" differently because of something inside you, and not because of that fist-shaking AA. Stop hiding your bigotry behind cheap excuses and come out with it. You sort of do already with these posts (ether^or^ is the perennial "I hate URMs so much because of AA" poster on SDN, by the way. You guys should get to know each other).
Click to expand...

I didn't say I hate any minorities and I didn't say that I have any low opinions about any minorities. I just said that if I see some minority going to Harvard, my first reaction is going to be that if he or she had been white or something else, he or she woudln't be there. But then I would realize that I might be wrong. That's all. No hating, just doubting.

And I think AA doesn't work, specially for getting hispanics in. The majority of hispanics that benefit from AA are the ones who don't even think of themselves as hispanic, but they put it on their application anyways. Most of them can't even probably speak Spanish. The rest of them are the rich kids who have the know-how for exploiting the broken system of AA. I'm saying this because I come from an area that has a huge hispanic population and I've seen numerous cases of this.
 
Hednej said:
During undergrad, I had better stats all over than my best friend. We had the same ECs, rec letters from the same teachers, applied to the same schools. He was half-hispanic, and didn't even bother to talk about his other half (he didn't even consider himself hispanic). He got in everywhere he applied, except Yale. The best I got was waitlist at UPenn.
....
If these people got into the high places not because of their merits but their race, then this only breeds hatred amnogst the rest of the population.
For all I know, if I do get into med school, whenever I see a URM student I'm not going to be so sure if they got there out of their own merits and brainpower. I'm not going to be giving them the credit that I'll give let's say my Asian or Indian or White or whatever non-URM classmates. I know this sounds wrong, but I have been hurt by AA and so have many others.
Click to expand...

Dude, why hate on these people. They're just being 100% honest on their application. Suppose you're half-hispanic and filling out AMCAS or any other app:

What's your race? White (easy question)
Yes or No, are you ethnically hispanic?
No = Lie
Yes = Truth

It's not their fault. You're talking about it like they gamed the system.
 
edit: removing too-long post. Peace, y'all. Eternalrage, thanks. :) It's like the only thing I use Google images for...haha...
 
My problem with AA, as it's implemented today, is that it has become grossly distorted and largely unfair. It was originally used in a much more appropriate time, to counter prevalent racism that kept Black workers from being able to get hired for jobs. Now, although racism may still exist to some extent, it is no longer the stifling sort that prevents opportunities such as education/jobs--at least not in most areas of the country.

It may still be significant in a few cases; that's why applicants should be evaluated individually as they are on every other basis. If affirmative action is to be applied as a blanket standard, it should, at most, be based on socioeconomic status. As was mentioned previously, it seems pretty unfair to give a rich URM some sort of admissions benefit while denying as much to a poverty-level Asian/White kid. Additionally, affirmative action itself is a racist standard, since it inherently assumes that the URM comes from a worse background and has been given fewer opportunities.

And the argument "life isn't fair" solves nothing. While a lot of things aren't fair, the whole point of the admissions process (while it may not seem that way to several of us) is to make some sort of non-arbitrary, fair judgment.

Although not all of us feel this way, I can understand the viewpoint of the poster who says he questions the legitimacy of URM students. If you know that any student has had any non-merit-based advantage in the process (AA, doctor's kid, prof's kid, whatever), then you might have cause to wonder whether he/she would be considered "qualified" enough for admission otherwise. It's not racism, anti-doctor's-kidism, or anything; it's an inevitable flaw of the system.

Also, some people argue that AA produces a "diverse student body." Great, I guess. However, more diversity can be found in activities, experiences, etc., by looking at the applicant as a whole and not by making assumptions about who somebody is on the basis of race alone. Ideally, med schools would end up with completely racially diverse classes. But the fair means of achieving that end is not affirmative action. The accepted members (of all races) would bring diversity in experiences and everything, with race being an incidental, not largely determining, factor.

The only semi-compelling reason I've ever heard argued for why affirmative action should be as it is in med school admissions is the need to produce doctors who will be more likely to work with their racial communities. However, I don't think this is necessarily the most effective way of accomplishing this. Perhaps scholarship programs could be offered to people agreeing to practice in such underserved communities (as they are for people willing to work in rural areas).

I hope that my post produces intelligent rebuttal and not name-calling or any unfounded assumptions. I think this is a very important topic to debate in the realm of medical education especially, because any standard for admission that is tangential to the abilities to work hard, solve problems, relate to patients, and understand directions is potentially harmful for those whose lives will depend on the people receiving that education.

[Disclaimer: I am not arguing that there should be fewer URMs in the medical system; maybe there should even be more. I just believe that AA is an unfair, arbitrary, and ultimately racist and archaic standard for evaluating who is more qualified to be a med student.]
 
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