MD/PhD to DVM…advice requested

xJAHx said:

I am new to posting under this name but not new to this forum. I suppose that this could go in the pre-vet forum, but I am not looking for the typical post of "I got a C in orgo 2, can I still get in?" and subsequent replies. Be forewarned that this shall be a stream of consciousness post. I am currently an MD/PhD student, and I am 1 year away from completing my PhD. That leaves three years in total remaining for both degrees to be completed.

After much soul searching and endless quantities of exposure to veterinary medicine vs. human medicine, I am certain that DVM and not MD is the best option for me. So my question relates to applying to vet school as a student who will soon complete the MD/PhD program. I am going to bluntly list my history.

Undergrad. 4.0, summa cum laude, valedictorian, chemistry and physics double major, top 25 university. GREs still to come, but 95th percentile on MCATs.

MD/PhD. Top 20 med school, PhD in epidemiology, mix of honors and passing.

Vet experience. 6 months of working in a basic science lab studying hypertrophic cardiomyopathy in cats, 200 hours of volunteering with a veterinary cardiologist reading EKG’s for cardio pet, 200 hours of working at a national level zoo specifically in the avian hospital, a wife who is an avian trainer at the same zoo…

What would you do at 30 years of age (age when done with the MD/PhD)? Go in to a “lifestyle” field of medicine to support an extracurricular life which revolves around animals or return to school to start all over again? Would the vet schools be interested in an MD/PhD or see him as a liability who has changed his mind in the past? Thanks for your thoughts...

JAH

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in all honesty, if i were you, I'd finish your MD. Your liability for vet schools admissions is going to be to try and convince DVM programs that you wont quit out of vet school either. Getting into med school isn't something that people take lightly - it is difficult, and most people dont drop out... So admissions people are going to question whether you will drop out of vet school as well, and may question if the position would be better filled by somebody who has demonstrated they've wanted to be a vet for a long period of time.

I can understand your dilemma between choosing a MD vs a DVM... The medicine is the same, we just practice on dogs and cats for a lot less money. Again, if i were you, id stay the course and finish your MD. I think in the end it will put you further a head, and you can choose a residency that will interest you and you can be happy with.

My father is an MD. He has always told me to go into a career that I will enjoy and want to be in becuase I'll be doing it for a long long time. I think applying after your degree is a good idea. As to weather or not vet schools will be interested in you I think it'll depend on how you present yourself and how convincing you are that this is the last swtich for you. The practical thing to think about is loans though. I'm not trying to pry it is a rhetorical question, can you pay off loans for two medical degree? on a vet's salary? being able to eat is important . If you know in your heart it is right go for it. There are plenty of non-trads and plenty of them start vet school in thier 30s. Good luck.

~Marie

xJAHx said:

What would you do at 30 years of age (age when done with the MD/PhD)? Go in to a “lifestyle” field of medicine to support an extracurricular life which revolves around animals or return to school to start all over again?

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That depends -- do you want to work with animals or do you want to be a veterinarian? They're not the same thing. If you want to work with animals, there's a number of options. If you really want to be a veterinarian, the only choice is to go to vet. school. You're the only one that can answer that.

30 is certainly not too old to start vet. school.

xJAHx said:

Would the vet schools be interested in an MD/PhD or see him as a liability who has changed his mind in the past?

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I don't think you'll have much problem. It's not common for MDs to go to vet school (visa versa is more common) but I know 2 people who quit med school to go to vet school and did very well.

Another possibility is to make an appointment with the vet school in your state or if you're in a state without one, the vet school you might be most interested in applying to. Bring your materials - grades/resume/MCAT scores etc. and discuss your career goals. Getting feed back on the switch and how vet schools will perceive it comes best from the horse's mouth, so to speak.

I'm sure you don't have tons of time for something like that right now given your program but if you're going to make the switch it might be worth taking the time.

Jen

As a guy who's 1) been accepted to MD/Phd programs and 2) is in a 3+ year relationship with a Vet student I can most importantly say...Good for you. That said I wholeheartedly recomend Penn (No I dont go to school there) and know first hand a few Penn faculty members who have done the same as you (made the transition). I can rattle off a couple of great faculty members for you to contact but if youre really serious abou this youre welcome to PM me and we can go about it from there.

Oh and I ultimately turned down the MD/Phd for reasons that I can explain later.

I read your post twice to make sure I understood what you're saying/asking. Basically, what I got was this.

You're medical-scientist in the process of finishing your doctorate in epidemiology (one year away, assuming in the dissertation stage) and 3 years away from completing your MD.

HOWEVER, after much introspection, you are wondering whether your talents and interests lie more in vet med than allo med.

You cited a your exceptional academic hx and noted that you have little if any student debt due NIH funding.

I'm an MD who later went on to earn a JD and then left medicine (psychiatry) to practice law. I have never regretted my decision and wish I had never gone to medical school. I love what I do and am happy doing it. I went into medicine for a variety of factors, but I never should have done it. You know you don't want a career in med now, before your MD, so why continue? What purpose will this achieve?

My experience has showed that MD-PhD types usually fall into two categories:
1) Scientists who earned the PhD first and then realized they really wanted to be clinicians, not researchers and went back for the MD; or,

2) Researchers who did the MD-PhD jointly but really wanted to do bio-med research, not practice.

It's rare to find an MD-PHD program that results in a clinician. So, maybe the real issue you're having is NOT vet vs. allo, but conversely, RESEARCH vs. PRACTICE.

If you truly want to be a clinician, then the PhD is a waste of time and effort. Why get a research degree when your dream to help others (or animals)? If you want to research, a clinical degree is not necessary. If you want to combine research and practice, then okay...fine, but will maintain both skills? Usually, one will dominate: research or practice. It's hard to balance both and maintain skills to be both a researcher and clinician.

Now, if you really want to be a clinician, and since you're so close to your doctorate, finish your dissertation and get the PhD. Look into vet schools that interest you. Apply. See if you can get in with your PhD and medical school credits. Some vet schools might waive some coursework based on your med school classes, but chances are, you'll have to start fresh in vet school. Earn your DVM and then go into practice.

If you truly don't wish to practice human med, why finish your MD? You'd have to do 3 more years of academic coursework + internship, USMLE 1-3, and then residency. Um, why bother if you're not going to use it or be happy? That's another 5-7 years of your life. OR....start vet school after your PHD (a year from now) and you only have 3-4 years of school compared to 5-7 of school + residency.

And...if anyone asks you why you left med for vet med, be honest. You'd be amazed how effective honesty is. Tell an admissions committee exactly what you told us here...you searched your heart and found that you were not meant to be a doctor and wanted to work in vet med. Cite your experiences and back up your statements with concrete examples. You'll get in and do well.

Don't spend years of your life earning your MD and license only to regret it. My God, don't finish your MD...drop out after your PhD and go to vet school. Don't get an MD and then do another 4 years of vet school.

If you're almost 30 now, you're still young. I started law school right out of residency and I just turned 36, graduating with my JD at 33. I spent a great deal of money on my MD adn JD, but in your case, time is more of an issue...do you want to waste time and life? Who does. Go to vet school and avoid regrets and wasted time. Your post reeks of your desire to do this; don't waste time and do it.

just be a neonatologist. It's practically veterinary medicine anyway.

KIDDING!

xJAHx -

I'm about a year away from finishing medical school (human med school) and I've also had thoughts in the past that my true passion lies with animals.

What type of veterinary medicine would you want to go into? Zoo vet, private practice with mostly cats and dogs, farm animal vet? Do you like medicine at all? You've got to sit down and decide if it's the animals that are drawing you to be a vet or if it's medicine that's pushing you away. If you're bored with medicine, then don't be a vet, go be a zookeeper or something else with animals.

And about getting in, give me a break, with an MD/PHD and whatever else you listed there, you'll obviously be able to get in anywhere you want. Sure, there'll be one interview question about, "oh, is this really what you want to do?" but it's pretty easy to say, "I always knew I wanted to be a doctor, it just took me a little longer to realize who I wanted my patients to be (animals vs humans)."

The interview question isn't the hard part, the hard part is deciding for yourself if you really want to be a vet or whether you're just a smart guy whose intelligence allows you to do anything but also makes you afraid of choosing the wrong career because you'll always be thinking, "I could have done anything, was this the right choice?"

Either way, I'd definitely finish the MD/PHD despite what others say. Whatever you go into, it'll never hurt that you have those degrees.

By the way, I don't know what zoo you work at, but the zoo near me actually has a "medical advisory committee" that includes human doctors from various fields that consult for the vets. That's one way that you could maintain the path you're on and still have a fair involvement with vet medicine.

Hi there,

I'm responding late to this thread (I haven't been back to this message board for awhile), but I am in a unique position to answer your questions.

I am an MD who, during medical school, realized she still wanted to be a vet but didn't want to (nor could afford to) quit med school in midstream without becoming license eligible first. So I stuck it out all the way through residency, including switching from a very good general surgery residency program I had gained entrance into, over to a family medicine program. Even after that, I wanted to ensure I could maximize my enjoyment of vet med by removing myself from having to be stuck with a practice, so I did an extra year of emergency medicine residency, passed my boards, and got my CCFP(EM).

As SOON as I finished my EM residency, I started vet school without skipping a beat. For me, gaining entrance into vet school was NOT easy, but I didn't have the stellar academic background that you have. My academic background was fantastic from med school and beyond (first-class standing, etc.), but not before, and it crippled me for years (in terms of getting into vet school ... but, I won't bore you with that sob story) ... suffice it to say that I gained admission into vet school and went straight into it as a 1st year student as soon as I could, which was as soon as I was done my EM residency.

In order to pay for vet school, I worked weekends & evenings in the local ER, and also did locum shifts as a family doc in the surrounding rural community hospitals (i.e., I pulled on-call shifts over occasional weekends or overnights). For my summers, instead of doing vet stuff, I worked full-time in the ER and pulled myself out of considerable debt each year as a result of going into debt due to tuition, etc. (I only worked 1-2 weekends/month during the academic year, and only occasional nights, because I needed to concentrate on my studies, too).

I had a TON of vet experience prior to getting into vet school (and prior to getting into med school, too). I was a summer zookeeper for 8 summers as well, so had lots of varied animal experience on top of the usual small & large animal experience most vet types accumulate. As a result, I was fortunate to get into a zoo medicine residency (3-year) straight out of vet school, which is almost unheard of .. but with my combined prior experience and clinical MD experience, they decided to give me a shot. It was fantastic (I just finished last fall).

Now I'm working primarily as an MD to pay off some latent student loans I accumulated back when I was in med school, but I'm also the area wildlife vet in my spare time. How's that for a fun job?! I plan to balance this more after my back debts are in better shape, and get my DVM going stronger and MD a bit less. But it's all good, and I'm happy, and it's totally possible to have it all work out doing it in this order.

By the way, I also got a doctoral degree in my 3-year zoo residency, so am a triple doc now - LOL - not that anyone gives a crap! I just think it's hilarious, and borderline psychotic, but totally totally fun, too.

Hope this perspective helps!

SkyeDJR