School Reputation and Residency

GreenShirt said:

Here's my dilema: I've been accepted to an established school and a new school, but find myself drawn to the new school. Is it completely crazy to go to an un-established school if you can get into one that has a 98% board pass rate? Will I be screwing myself over for residency or will it not be a significant problem with a good COMLEX score? I don't know too much about residency selection. Any thoughts appreciated.

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which schools are they if u dont mind me asking?

GreenShirt said:

Here's my dilema: I've been accepted to an established school and a new school, but find myself drawn to the new school. Is it completely crazy to go to an un-established school if you can get into one that has a 98% board pass rate? Will I be screwing myself over for residency or will it not be a significant problem with a good COMLEX score? I don't know too much about residency selection. Any thoughts appreciated.

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Yes and maybe. New schools are always a gamble as they have no match list, board pass rates, etc. available yet. Why risk that when you are accepted into an established institution?

I am in the exact same position, but finding that my only reason for choosing the older school is the fear of the new one, and the fact that it is SOOOO nice!- and I dont think those are good reasons! I guess I am going to go where I feel I will be happiest, as four years is a long time.

I chose DCOM (the new school) over an Erie waitlist. I thought it would fit better for me for the next four years. But, DCOM is extremely organized, hired some big names for profs, and is pumping a bunch of money into the school - it is a long term investment, not something thrwon together.

I chose LECOM-B over acceptances to AZCOM and PCOM. So far I've been happy, and I feel that all things considered I made the right decision. I really don't go for lectures and Florida is closer to where I need to be geographically right now. Only time will tell if it was a good decision as far as residency goes.

I think learning is easier if you're relatively happy, so along with reputation, curriculum, etc. I would also think about where you're going to be happiest.

MD/DO ALMOST said:

I am in the exact same position, but finding that my only reason for choosing the older school is the fear of the new one, and the fact that it is SOOOO nice!- and I dont think those are good reasons! I guess I am going to go where I feel I will be happiest, as four years is a long time.

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Isn't this kind of a big deal?

CTrainSJU said:

Isn't this kind of a big deal?

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Maybe, maybe not. When I am 55 and a physician for years, nobody will care. Is it a 'new' school? Yes, but ATSU also SHOULD know what they are doing, seeing as how KCOM has been around forever, and the dean is Dr. Wood former head of the AACOM. This is not to say the AACOM is perfect or even great, it is just a statement on his exposure to MANY types of educational models and deciding that this was a better way to do it. I am not above taking advice from those who know a better way, but I am not going to rush into this either. I also met the people there, and was pretty impressed with them AND the goal of helping in underserved areas. I am interested, but I also know things change, and another school may also be appropriate. As for the other schools I have been accepted to, they are all well established (MD and DO) and they all have incredible shiny new facilities, but is that so important when studying medicine, especially if we are only there for the first two years, or even ONE as in ATSU -Mesa? This is what I mean- the 'new' is bad and good...Hmmmmm

GreenShirt said:

Is it completely crazy to go to an un-established school if you can get into one that has a 98% board pass rate?
They are LECOM-Erie and ATSU-Mesa

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Since when does LECOM-Erie have a 98% pass rate??

highballa33 said:

Since when does LECOM-Erie have a 98% pass rate??

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Follow your gut, but make sure you look at where these ppl rotate and for how long. Too many pre-meds forget to look at the last two years of medical school (the most important)

Also, be careful about judging the competitiveness of EM. It's getting much more competitive, and as more and more Drs are making lifestyle choices in regards to their specialty, EM is becoming more attractive. Fellowships in CCM after EM, which may become certified soon, also will make the field more competitive. Bottom line, it's too soon to make this decision based on the competitiveness of a field which is soon to change.

A more established school with stronger community and academic affiliations is the safer and smarter bet, no doubt about it. Anyone who argues otherwise is likely standing up for their school.

I get the impression ATSU-Mesa is a very unique school. I've heard from past interviewees that the school sends you to different states for your first two years and you basically get through basic science with a group of 10 classmates. It sounds very PBL based, so make sure you know what that's like(so is LECOM). More importantly, besides picking which medschool is more prominent, you should think about where you'd be happier for the next 2 years at least. It's a tremendous accomplishment to be accepted into any medschool, and as long as you do well in any of them, I believe that you can be the kind of doctor you wish to become. As far as DCOM is concerned, everyone's feels(at least ones i've spoken to), it is by far the best new DO school this year. The faculty is outstanding and the facility will be first class. It is also extremely organized and professional as you will find out if you interview there. Good luck!

JPHazelton said:

A more established school with stronger community and academic affiliations is the safer and smarter bet, no doubt about it. Anyone who argues otherwise is likely standing up for their school.

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OK, agreed. What if the new program holds a genuine interest for me. I think ATSU Mesa has a good idea, and I like the concept. Not that the other schools don't provide good rotations, but I really can see myself at the particular CHC site for the last three years, (possibly longer) and being happy- and possibly staying there. All other options would be a sacrifice for three and a half to four years, until residency, at which point I could hope to match back 'home'. Do you have any input on the ATSU MESA program in particular? ( im sure you're far too busy to know much, but just in case...) Also, IYO , is this the wrong reason to choose the program?

There is one particular school that I'm on the alternate list at that some would probably consider the "most established" Osteopathic School. Even if I get in there, I don't think I would go because I prefer the curriculum and teaching style at other schools....plus, it defines "remote".

If you don't think you will be happy somewhere, do yourself a favor and don't go there. I knew better than to move to my current location for a job 5 years ago, and I've been miserable living in this town pretty much since the day we moved here.

122206DO said:

As far as DCOM is concerned, everyone's feels(at least ones i've spoken to), it is by far the best new DO school this year.

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In all fairness, theres not much to compare it to.

I dont know what the wrong or right reason for choosing a school is. It just has to be the right decision for you. You cant choose a school based on what you might want to do in a few years because that could change. But because it CAN change you need to be somewhere that will allow you to do anything.

MJB said:

There is one particular school that I'm on the alternate list at that some would probably consider the "most established" Osteopathic School. Even if I get in there, I don't think I would go because I prefer the curriculum and teaching style at other schools....plus, it defines "remote".

If you don't think you will be happy somewhere, do yourself a favor and don't go there. I knew better than to move to my current location for a job 5 years ago, and I've been miserable living in this town pretty much since the day we moved here.

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Gosh, from that description, I have absolutely no idea what school you're talking about. Why not just say _COM?

Not saying it wouldn't be a tough decision for obvious reasons, but I think the opportunities for myself and my wife might be better elsewhere. She's a nurse, so she can find work about anywhere, but certain opportunities are much better for her when nearer larger metro areas...It would be a shorter move for the more established school, but again...I'm not sure I would choose to go there at this point. And, it might be a moot point...who knows.

I love the curriculum style that KCUMB uses, and there are a few others out there that use it.

GreenShirt said:

I have to say that I'd like LECOM better if they hadn't put me in the LDP pathway. 8hrs of mandatory lecture a day? Forget it. On the other hand, I think one of the big pulls of ATSU-Mesa is the sunshine of AZ. However, I'd only be there for a year and then off to sun-less Seattle for three. ATSU-Mesa also emphasizes non-hospital care over hospital-based care in their clinicals. Their logic is that 95% of physicians don't practice in hospitals, so it's silly for Medical students to receive all their training in them. It sounds like a good idea, but EM is hospital based, so that might be bad for me. I picked prestige over sense for college and it didn't do me a lot of good. I could have had a good state education for a lot less money....sorry, I'm rambling a bit. I appreciate all the feedback. I have a physician contact at the ACOEP (the professional organization for EM DOs), I'll ask him what he thinks and get back to you guys.

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Please do! Also, for EM, don't a lot of the CHC's have Emergency rooms or Dept's? I saw that the facilities in Brooklyn were quite extensive, and even Hawaii has an ER The Visalia, Ca. site, not sure, but I wonder about the others. I'm sure that being in AZ., students will be able to go into the hospitals in the area.

GreenShirt said:

Hey guys, so I e-mailed my contact at the ACOEP about school selection and residency here's what he wrote:

"I don't think that your
choice of medical school will have any effect on your
getting a residency. As long as it is an accredited
school and you get a degree, you should be fine. I
don't know enough about this new curriculum to give
any informed commentary on how this will affect your
training, but I will offer this comment: Generally,
the emergency medicine education will really begin
during residency and what you bring with you (as far
as knowledge) is really more dependent on you as a
student more that the type of curriculum you were in.
The most important thing in choosing your school is
where you think you will be most comfortable and have
a good experience."

Sounds like a carte blanche to me!

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This advice is from a Physician right? I have heard very similar comments from all of the doc's I have spoken to also- one is an opthalmologist, one is a Hematologist, and the other is head of Family Medicine at a major institution in California. They all agree about the accredeitation comment, and that the education/training really begins when you enter residency.

GreenShirt said:

Hopefully, Board scores conquer all!

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You would think...doesnt always work that way.

JPHazelton said:

A more established school with stronger community and academic affiliations is the safer and smarter bet, no doubt about it. Anyone who argues otherwise is likely standing up for their school.

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this can be achieved through a short span of time these dayz, schools dont have to be around for 100's of years. I do agree on your criterions for a good school but certainly misguiding to base your trust in school's longevity.

I agree also.I am trying to decide whether or not the ATSU-MESA D.O. School will have the connections that they have built through 115 years at KCOM, which has AZ. as the site for some of it's own rotations. I might be kind of lucky in that the CHC site I was given has it's own ER with 7 physicians and 7 P.A's as well as Helicopter services to transfer to a local hospital. This is in addition to a Family Medicine Building and clinic, and OB/Gyn, geriatric care, etc... They are all different, but my site is in a perfect location for me , and although AZ. heat will hurt for a bit, I'm sure we will be busy with medical school anyhow, so it may not matter, and 1 year isn't too long. I'm begining to be much more comfortable with the idea of being the first.

MD/DO ALMOST said:

I agree also.I am trying to decide whether or not the ATSU-MESA D.O. School will have the connections that they have built through 115 years at KCOM, which has AZ. as the site for some of it's own rotations. I might be kind of lucky in that the CHC site I was given has it's own ER with 7 physicians and 7 P.A's as well as Helicopter services to transfer to a local hospital. This is in addition to a Family Medicine Building and clinic, and OB/Gyn, geriatric care, etc... They are all different, but my site is in a perfect location for me , and although AZ. heat will hurt for a bit, I'm sure we will be busy with medical school anyhow, so it may not matter, and 1 year isn't too long. I'm begining to be much more comfortable with the idea of being the first.

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Dude, did you say in an earlier post you got accepted at an MD school? If so, not to come across like a jerk but it should be a no brainer to take the MD and freakin run. I'm not bashing DO's at all (I was accepted to 6 DO programs and currently have money down at DMU) but 90% of the DO's I've talked to all admit if they could have gone MD they would have. If you are that 10% who is fully DO that's cool and I have no problem with it but if I were in your shoes I wouldn't even be having this debate.

Oh, and its probably a good idea to listen to JP becuase he knows what the heck he is talking about. He's not God but as far as this forum goes he's about as close as your gonna get.

Yes, I was accepted at ALLOPATHIC intitutions as well, but are you saying that you're beloved J.P. got an inferior education by going to PCOM? (which I did NOT get into BTW.) Im confused, we have heard over and over again that you should go where you will be happy- i would NOT be happy at Northwestern or MCW freezing my ass off and being away from the ocean, when I could be at Nova or in Ca ( Touro or COMP). As far as DO/MD, i do believe in the philosophy, and I might use SOME of the techniques, but I get the impression that the difference means a LOT more to pre-meds who want the letters to be MD, not to the practicing physcains who all work together regardless of their allopathic or osteopathic training: they both treat people who need help, and MOST patients will never know the difference, and won't care to ask. My .02....

MD/DO ALMOST said:

Yes, I was accepted at ALLOPATHIC intitutions as well, but are you saying that you're beloved J.P. got an inferior education by going to PCOM? (which I did NOT get into BTW.) Im confused, we have heard over and over again that you should go where you will be happy- i would NOT be happy at Northwestern or MCW freezing my ass off and being away from the ocean, when I could be at Nova or in Ca ( Touro or COMP). As far as DO/MD, i do believe in the philosophy, and I might use SOME of the techniques, but I get the impression that the difference means a LOT more to pre-meds who want the letters to be MD, not to the practicing physcains who all work together regardless of their allopathic or osteopathic training: they both treat people who need help, and MOST patients will never know the difference, and won't care to ask. My .02....

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I agree with the part of your quote that states MOST people do not know the difference and most will not ask. I can back it up with a few facts my aunt and her children, my grandmother, and my father all go to three separate practices here on long island and all are run by DO's. My grandma even goes to see a cardiologist who is a DO. Each one of them was bragging about how good each one of their doctors were yet not one knew the difference between md and do until I explained it to them! By the way all the practices are always packed with people since I am now a regular patient of my parents PCP DO and he is good! Like any other profession, there will be good DO's, crappy DO's and there will be good MD's and crappy MD's. Thats just how life works!

IMO, for this program, I dont think it's going to matter because you will still do required EM rotations at local hospitals and/or affiliated medical centers, which may end up being better- who knows?

GreenShirt said:

What do residencies look at besides board scores? The information about school not mattering all that much, is just what I got from one physician. In your experice, have you seen people be crushed by their choice of school for residency?

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Your picture.

GreenShirt said:

What do residencies look at besides board scores? The information about school not mattering all that much, is just what I got from one physician. In your experice, have you seen people be crushed by their choice of school for residency?

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The Big Three (not in any paticular order):

1. Board scores
2. Letters of Recommendation
3. Performance on audition rotations (Are you a good guy/gal? And the old it's-not-what-you-know-it's-who-you-know, etc.)

So how does your school affect these criteria? Your two years of didactic education prepare you for boards. Your clinical years expose you the attendings who'll write your letters, and place you in the clerkships where you'll hopefully score points for residency.

If I were choosing a school all again I'd come up with the most desireable locations for me and my loved ones. Then I'd look at these schools' board pass rates, as well as the quality of the hospital affiliations. I'd also look into how flexible your 4th year will be (Can you do 3 or 4 rotations in whatever specialty you hope to land? etc.). And lastly, I'd consider the $$$ to attend. And after mixing all of these things up in the blender, I'd pick the best fit for my individual personality, circumstances, and interests.

GreenShirt said:

In your experice, have you seen people be crushed by their choice of school for residency?

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I have seen people who attend certain schools not have the ability to rotate where they want to go for residency. I have seen people who attend certain schools not get a spot at another schools program, despite being a better candidate on paper. I have even seen people from certain schools get denied elective rotations at a particular hospital because the DME was not familiar with their program.

If you are gunning for a particular residency program you MUST make yourself highly visible to that program.

If you are gunning for a highly competitive residency program you MUST have as many positives in your corner as possible.

If you are simply looking for a midlevel or noncompetitive residency program and location isnt a big factor, then go to any school and do well on the boards.

GreenShirt said:

Thanks for the info San_Juan_Sun, it's very helpful. Unfortunately, ATSU-Mesa doesn't have anything established for years 3-4, so its hard to tell what my options will be. Oh well, I still have 5 more interviews...maybe another school will capture my attention.

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I go to AZCOM. Our assistant dean left to take a position at ATSU-Mesa (maybe he's the dean? I don't know.) He was very instrumental in getting AZCOM going back in the 90's, and helpful in getting AZCOM better rotations over the last couple of years. He'll be a huge asset to ATSU-Mesa in regards to rotations. Also, remember that Kirsville students were rotating in Arizona teaching hospitals long before AZCOM made inroads there. I'm sure ATSU-Mesa will be fine in that regard.

GreenShirt said:

I picked prestige for my undergrad school and its somewhat limited my future. I just don't want to make the same mistake with med. school.

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Medical school is not like undergrad. Medical school has a lot to do with who you know and how visible you are to the right people. Being at the right school makes that much, much easier.

JPHazelton said:

A more established school with stronger community and academic affiliations is the safer and smarter bet, no doubt about it. Anyone who argues otherwise is likely standing up for their school.

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Or standing up for the "I wouldn't want to be in Erie, PA if I could avoid it" contingent.

San_Juan_Sun said:

The Big Three (not in any paticular order):

1. Board scores
2. Letters of Recommendation
3. Performance on audition rotations (Are you a good guy/gal? And the old it's-not-what-you-know-it's-who-you-know, etc.)

...I'd pick the best fit for my individual personality, circumstances, and interests.

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i might have written this on another forum, but with 2 & 3--being at the same site an extra year may give a slight edge in that you have more time to get cool with people, both patients and physicians. i remember during the interview day that they have the extra year so you can know your facilities and patients much better before starting your rotations. most of us have discussed 1 so thats cool. as for the last quote, thats wassup. i say you will have enough stresses already, so a school that accomodates you can be a very important factor. if that choice is available.

MD/DO ALMOST said:

Yes, I was accepted at ALLOPATHIC intitutions as well, but are you saying that you're beloved J.P. got an inferior education by going to PCOM? (which I did NOT get into BTW.) Im confused, we have heard over and over again that you should go where you will be happy- i would NOT be happy at Northwestern or MCW freezing my ass off and being away from the ocean, when I could be at Nova or in Ca ( Touro or COMP). As far as DO/MD, i do believe in the philosophy, and I might use SOME of the techniques, but I get the impression that the difference means a LOT more to pre-meds who want the letters to be MD, not to the practicing physcains who all work together regardless of their allopathic or osteopathic training: they both treat people who need help, and MOST patients will never know the difference, and won't care to ask. My .02....

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Were you accepted to Northwestern??

You are a complete idiot if you turned them down for ANY DO school.....your oppurtunities would be awesome coming out of NW.