Tufts vs Penn

Angelo84 said:

So I know at least one other person is dealing with this one!

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Thanks for making this its own thread, Angelo!

I am having a really tough time deciding this one...not that I have any complaints over having a choice - I'm thrilled! It's just not going to be an easy choice. I will start thinking of things to add to the pros/cons lists.

So I know at least one other person is dealing with this one! What are you guys weighing to decide assuming your in both? Below are my pro/cons lists--please add to them.

Tufts:
Pros--case based study at Tufts in addition to didactic learning
*small classes 80 - students get a proportionately large number of cases to work with individually
have a strong small animal case load and behavior
2nd yrs in hosp observing third and fourth years
nice facilities
*small/large hospitals interconnected - allows for great communication between staff and doctors
selectives first two years
*INDOOR corridor for equine lameness evals!
Cons
not much else in North Grafton
weak equine/food animal program
lowish case load--although students said there are enough cases for everyone 28,000
*blizzards.

Penn:
Pros--strong case load
*in Philly - crazy/interesting cases that you won't get in rural areas
diversity of students
can work in hosp first two years
new lecture halls
reputations? don't know if matters to employers for small animal my interest
*number and diversity of student "clubs"
Cons
in Philly--don't like cities
bigger class size 110
NBC 1 hr away
professors didn't seem excited about selecting new class---Anyone else feel this way or was it just my interviewers? (Angelo, i got a diff feel - mine seemed actually pretty excited about it, just maybe got a little carried away )

Thanks and I hope this helps others decide as well!

Angelo84 said:

Penn:
reputations? don't know if matters to employers for small animal my interest

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How about for large animal? Any thoughts?

JumptheMoon said:

How about for large animal? Any thoughts?

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i just read yet another article on Dean Richardson.

nuff said, imo.

I too am making this decision. I have emailed students at both schools with a whole slew of questions, and I am in the process of doing the same for faculty. Let's make this list nice and orderly, and keep adding to it:

Tufts:
Pros
- Case-based study and didactic learning
- Smaller classes (80) - students get a proportionately large number of cases to work with individually
have a strong small animal case load and behavior
- Strong small animal case load and behavior
- 2nd yrs in hospital have the opportunity to observe third and fourth years
- Nice facilities
- Small/large hospitals interconnected - allows for great communication between staff and doctors
selectives first two years
- Selectives first two years
- INDOOR corridor for equine lameness evals!
- They have a wildlife clinic
- Signature programs
- Ethics and Values in Veterinary Medicine
- International Veterinary Medicine
- Wildlife Medicine
- Equine Sports Medicine
- Biotechnology and Veterinary Medicine
- Relatively close to Boston
Cons
- Not much else in North Grafton - really no other students, either
- They don't seem as organized as Penn
- Students don't type up the notes and give them to you in your mailbox
- Weak equine/food animal program
- 90/10 female/male ratio

Penn:
Pros
- Strong case load
- Diverse student body
- Can work in the hospital the first two years
- Beautiful new building with library, lecture halls
- In Philly - crazy/interesting cases that you won't get in rural area
- Strong ivy league reputation and networking
- Students type up notes and give them to you
- Very laid-back, noncompetitive
- 2 years to apply for VMD/PhD program
- Connected to med school - easy to find research
- Students socialize (happy hour on friday?)
- Number and diversity of student clubs
- The school is surrounded by other schools. If you want to branch out from your 110 classmates, it's really easy to do so.
Cons
- Bigger class size (110)
- New Bolton Center is a full hour away
- Classrooms in old building are ancient (anatomy lab?)
Neutral(Personal Preference)
- In Philly

Angelo84 said:

professors didn't seem excited about selecting new class---Anyone else feel this way or was it just my interviewers?

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Really? I found my interviewers and all the student observers to be so enthusiastic - it was a big draw for me in terms of deciding where to go. More than any other vet school Penn seems like it really picks a class it likes. I didnt apply to Tufts though, so I dont know about them.

in philly should be a pro! it's a *fantastic* city and i miss it. it's not overwhelmingly large. plus you can't beat their food. i'm dying out here in ohio without all of those restaurants!

Hey, got some more info on Tufts

Tufts:
Pros
- Case-based study and didactic learning
- Smaller classes (80) - students get a proportionately large number of cases to work with individually
have a strong small animal case load and behavior
- Strong small animal case load and behavior
- 2nd yrs in hospital have the opportunity to observe third and fourth years
- Nice facilities
- Small/large hospitals interconnected - allows for great communication between staff and doctors
selectives first two years
- Selectives first two years
- INDOOR corridor for equine lameness evals!
- They have a wildlife clinic
- Signature programs
- Ethics and Values in Veterinary Medicine
- International Veterinary Medicine
- Wildlife Medicine
- Equine Sports Medicine
- Biotechnology and Veterinary Medicine
- Relatively close to Boston
- More personal attention, professors and deans know students
- New campus center by end of 2008
- Students can get involved with research over the summer and possibly get published
- One of the highest in receiving NIH grants for summer research
- Various opportunities to get involved with clubs and extracurriculars on campus (business club, global solutions club, diversity club)
Cons
- Not much else in North Grafton - really no other students, either
- 45-60 min from Boston and public transportation is not great
- They don't seem as organized as Penn
- Students don't type up the notes and give them to you in your mailbox
- Weak equine/food animal program
- 90/10 female/male ratio
Personal Preference
- Cirriculum is less regimented than Penn

Penn:
Pros
- Strong case load
- Diverse student body
- Can work in the hospital the first two years
- Beautiful new building with library, lecture halls
- In Philly - crazy/interesting cases that you won't get in rural area
- Strong ivy league reputation and networking
- Students type up notes and give them to you
- Very laid-back, noncompetitive
- 2 years to apply for VMD/PhD program
- Connected to med school - easy to find research
- Students socialize (happy hour on friday?)
- Number and diversity of student clubs
- The school is surrounded by other schools. If you want to branch out from your 110 classmates, it's really easy to do so.
Cons
- Bigger class size (110)
- New Bolton Center is a full hour away
- Classrooms in old building are ancient (anatomy lab?)
Neutral(Personal Preference)
- In Philly

These lists are extremely well organized and helpful. Though I have no decision to make, I think it might be a really good idea to make lists like this for all of the schools and have that stickied at the top. I think that would be extremeley helpful for those applying and those trying to make decisions. What do you guys think?

i think that'd be a lot of stickies.

I meant include it all in one thread

i agree, because I"m deciding between Tufts and others schools such as minneosta

Angelo84 said:

When I was shadowing a large animal vet last summer I was asked where I was applying and several clients had negative attitudes towards Tufts. Several of them said they would prefer a Penn or Ohio vet to a Tufts vet. I think this is because there is not as strong an equine program at Tufts. I didn't ask the vet I was working with if employers care--but got the feeling it might matter more for equine practitioners.

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Angelo, may I ask where this large animal vet is located? Just curious...I'm still trying to sort out the Tufts equine program for myself, and it seems to have different reputations depending on where you are in the country.

cyrille104 said:

Tufts:
Pros
- Case-based study and didactic learning
- Smaller classes (80) - students get a proportionately large number of cases to work with individually
have a strong small animal case load and behavior
- Strong small animal case load and behavior
- 2nd yrs in hospital have the opportunity to observe third and fourth years
- Nice facilities
- Small/large hospitals interconnected - allows for great communication between staff and doctors
selectives first two years
- Selectives first two years
- INDOOR corridor for equine lameness evals!
- They have a wildlife clinic
- Signature programs
- Ethics and Values in Veterinary Medicine
- International Veterinary Medicine
- Wildlife Medicine
- Equine Sports Medicine
- Biotechnology and Veterinary Medicine
- Relatively close to Boston
- More personal attention, professors and deans know students
- New campus center by end of 2008
- Students can get involved with research over the summer and possibly get published
- One of the highest in receiving NIH grants for summer research
- Various opportunities to get involved with clubs and extracurriculars on campus (business club, global solutions club, diversity club)
Cons
- Not much else in North Grafton - really no other students, either
- 45-60 min from Boston and public transportation is not great
- They don't seem as organized as Penn
- Students don't type up the notes and give them to you in your mailbox
- Weak equine/food animal program
- 90/10 female/male ratio
Personal Preference
- Cirriculum is less regimented than Penn

Penn:
Pros
- Strong case load
- Diverse student body
- Can work in the hospital the first two years
- Beautiful new building with library, lecture halls
- In Philly - crazy/interesting cases that you won't get in rural area
- Strong ivy league reputation and networking
- Students type up notes and give them to you
- Very laid-back, noncompetitive
- 2 years to apply for VMD/PhD program
- Connected to med school - easy to find research
- Students socialize (happy hour on friday?)
- Number and diversity of student clubs
- The school is surrounded by other schools. If you want to branch out from your 110 classmates, it's really easy to do so.
Cons
- Bigger class size (110)
- New Bolton Center is a full hour away
- Classrooms in old building are ancient (anatomy lab?)
Neutral(Personal Preference)
- In Philly

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I can't really comment on Tufts, but I can tell you I turned them down last year in favor of Penn. As far as Penn goes... 110 in our class is no big deal, it doesn't ever feel like there at that many and I know a lot of my classmates. As far as the class size versus caseload that was mentioned under Tufts... Penn has one of, if not the, largest caseloads at both the new bolton center and VHUP (SA hospital). The student to caseload ratio is one student per several cases as opposed to one case per several students seen at many other schools. The New Bolton Center being an hour away... lectures are still in Philly, we only go out there for labs and its scheduled as a whole day or a whole afternoon out there so its not that big of a deal, its actually not a bad drive and gets you out of the city. When you do get to LA block or clinics, most LA people move out there, or there are dormitories at the NBC for students on rotation. The classrooms... your class will be lucky as you will never have to experience the wonders of room 13. The anatomy lab isn't bad at all and I think is better than some others that I've toured. Who needs a nice room if its just going to smell like formaldehyde and you'll be slinging dead animal parts around? And the anatomy lab and its room A where you do pre-lab "chalk talks" has been used by every VMD, so its kinda of a historical thing. The lecture halls in the hill pavilion are state of the art and quite cushy, and the other lecture hall thats mainly a 1st year room isn't bad either.

To comment on a couple of your positives - lets see, happy hour on fridays is definitely true, right in the student lounge, usually lasts a little longer than an hour and is a good time! Some of our biochem professors were playing flip cup with people in my class at the last one, where else does that happen? And you can bring your animals to happy hour, my dog thinks its the highlight of her week. Note service - every lecture is digitally recorded and goes up on the web so aside from someone transcribing it, you can go back and listen to it, download it to the ipod, etc. quite nice. Penn also has the NIH/Merck summer research. The can be published, theres a huge research presentation day, that is actually coming up, and the students get paid a stipend that I believe is $5500. My classmates are awesome, living in the city is much better and safer than I thought it would be, and choosing Penn (over Tufts, NC State, and Colorado) was probably one of the best things I've ever done. So I'm a little biased, but if anyone wants to talk about Penn, please feel free to post or PM me.

Hey, I updated the list a little bit to make it a bit more to the point and added some new info.

Tufts:
Pros
- Case-based study as well as didactic learning
- Smaller classes (80)
- Strong small animal case load and behavior
- 2nd yrs in hospital have the opportunity to observe third and fourth years
- Nice facilities
- Small/large hospitals interconnected
- Selectives first two years
- Indoor corridor for equine lameness evals
- Wildlife clinic
- Signature/certificate programs
- Somewhat close to Boston
- More personal attention, professors and deans know students
- New campus center by end of 2008
- Students can get involved with research over the summer and possibly get published
- Various opportunities to get involved with clubs and extracurriculars on campus (business club, global solutions club, diversity club)
- Strong equine program
Cons
- Not much else in North Grafton
- 45-60 min from Boston and public transportation is not great at night
- Weak food animal program
- 90/10 female/male ratio
- Students have mixed answers when asked if the students are competitive with each other
- Harder to get involved with wildlife/conservation medicine than you'd think - it's more of an extracurricular thing
Personal Preference
- Cirriculum is less regimented than Penn
- Curriculum is about 70% SA

Penn:
Pros
- Strong case load
- Diverse student body
- Can work in the hospital the first two years
- Beautiful new building with library, lecture halls
- Crazy/interesting cases that you won't get in rural area
- Strong ivy league reputation and networking
- Volunteers take comprehensive notes and they appear in your mailbox the next morning
- Very laid-back, noncompetitive
- 2 years to apply for VMD/PhD program
- Connected to med school - easy to find research
- Students socialize (happy hour on friday?)
- Number and diversity of student clubs
- The school is surrounded by other schools. If you want to branch out from your 110 classmates, it's really easy to do so.
- New MPH program centered around global health issues
- Flexible electives and rotations can do alternative electives over the summer for credit so you can gear your education towards what you want
Cons
- Bigger class size (110)
- New Bolton Center is a full hour away
- Classrooms in old building are REALLY old
(Personal Preference)
- In Philly
- Only didactic learning (no case-based study)

At this point I'm leaning towards Penn. I much much much prefer to be in a big city, and for what I want to do I think didactic learning would be best. I'm also a little worried about competition, and I got the impression that Penn is less competitive (if only by a little). Finally, it doesn't bother me that NBC is an hour away. I still have two faculty phone calls scheduled, one from each school. I'll make my final decision after that.

I didn't think guys would mind the 90/10 female/male ratio, I'm kind of surprised.

ri23 said:

I didn't think guys would mind the 90/10 female/male ratio, I'm kind of surprised.

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Haha, no comment.

I guess that should be moved to personal preference, but I put it in the cons because it's less diverse.

cyrille104 said:

I'm also a little worried about competition, and I got the impression that Penn is less competitive (if only by a little).

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this coming from him surprised me more than the male/female ratio thing!

now, i'm not a student at either place yet, but i definitely got a laid back vibe from any/all of the tufts students that were there the day i was. to be honest, it seemed a little too laid back for my tastes. i'm not competitive by any means (i'm too egocentric to care what the rest of my class is doing ), but i enjoy at least a little friendly banter! i know it's not fair to inductively assume the entire class is like that based on the several tufts tour guides that i met, but that impression is still there. the penn students seemed have a connection amongst themselves that allowed for competition in a friendly atmosphere.

it's killing me to turn down tufts, but there are several reasons why penn is ultimately a better choice for me. not to mention i get giddy when i think i'll be a student at the same NICU i've been volunteering at for four years now. tufts is great, but it's not the school for me this time. if people want my reasonings, i can post them, but i just wanted to post on the competitiveness.

OH! and i think the old anatomy classroom should be in the personal preference list. i LOVE that lecture hall, and its the #1 reason for my decision . seriously, though, i love it.

Just bumping up the thread bc it has some really good info about choosing schools. I'm currently in the Tufts/Penn quandary myself. I ALMOST sent in my Penn acceptance letter today, but something held me back. I'm lame. Maybe it was the friendly interviewer notes of my Tufts letter? I'm 90% sure I'm headed to Penn in the fall, but here is the updated list from last year anyway. Anyone care to add?

Tufts:
Pros
- Case-based study as well as didactic learning
- Smaller classes (90)
- Strong small animal case load and behavior
- 2nd yrs in hospital have the opportunity to observe third and fourth years
- Nice facilities
- Small/large hospitals interconnected
- Selectives first two years
- Indoor corridor for equine lameness evals
- Lots of small animal experience in first two years
- Wildlife clinic
- Signature/certificate programs
- Somewhat close to Boston
- Popular ambulatory service
- More personal attention, professors and deans know students
- New campus center by end of 2008
- Students can get involved with research over the summer and possibly get published
- Various opportunities to get involved with clubs and extracurriculars on campus (business club, global solutions club, diversity club)
- Strong equine program (seems subjective)
- Big sib program
- No crime
- No undergrad competition for gym, parking, library.
Cons
- Not much else in North Grafton
- 45-60 min from Boston and public transportation is not great at night
- Weak food animal program
- 90/10 female/male ratio
- Students have mixed answers when asked if the students are competitive with each other
- Harder to get involved with wildlife/conservation medicine than you'd think - it's more of an extracurricular thing
-(mixed reviews from other vets on caseload?)
- Blizzards
Personal Preference
- Curriculum is less regimented than Penn
- Curriculum is about 70% SA
-Newer School.

Penn:
Pros
- Strong case load
- Diverse student body
- NBC has equine recovery pool and much more than Tufts
- Can work in the hospital the first two years
- Beautiful new building with library, lecture halls
- Crazy/interesting cases that you won't get in rural area
- Strong ivy league reputation and networking
- Volunteers take comprehensive notes and they appear in your mailbox the next morning
-Students give test boxes w last year's exams.
-Big Sib program
- Very laid-back, noncompetitive (subjective)
- 2 years to apply for VMD/PhD program
- Connected to med school - easy to find research
- Students socialize (happy hour on friday?)
- Number and diversity of student clubs
- The school is surrounded by other schools. If you want to branch out from your 125 classmates, it's really easy to do so.
- New MPH program centered around global health issues
- Flexible electives and rotations can do alternative electives over the summer for credit so you can gear your education towards what you want.
-Food trucks
- Lots of lunch time lectures w free food.
Cons
- Bigger class size (125)
- New Bolton Center is a full hour away
- Classrooms in old building are REALLY old
- Crime
- Some elitism
- Except for clubs, not much animal exposure first 2 years
- Gym needs to be paid for and loaded with undergrads
(Personal Preference)
- In Philly
- Only didactic learning (no case-based study)
- Mixed opinions about first year and second year lectures

Wanted to mention that Tufts has a new lecture hall that should be opening up this month and they also have lots of free food lunches (at least in their first year).

Question: Does Penn track?