USC - no longer 100% PBL

I have a question for you? Are you currently a student of USCSD? The resource sessions are not as all encompassing as you think they are...just letting you know

Mysteree said:

I have a question for you? Are you currently a student of USCSD? The resource sessions are not as all encompassing as you think they are...just letting you know

Click to expand...

Agreed. There is a *big* difference between a dean saying "this is how it will be" and the situation becoming an actual reality

Don't believe everything you read. Especially if you like how it sounds..

philchungski said:

again I didn't say it will happen.. I'm just saying that it's a possiblity that USC's research aspect might improve... i never said it will... just stating what i heard...

Click to expand...

"USC IS "TECHNICALLY" NO LONGER A 100% PBL PROGRAM."

That sounds like ur saying it IS like that not it may happen...

bmrboy19 said:

"USC IS "TECHNICALLY" NO LONGER A 100% PBL PROGRAM."

That sounds like ur saying it IS like that not it may happen...

Click to expand...

One thing I would like to point out. Most schools do not publish their Board Scores for Part-1. In fact, I went through the schools that are generally thought to have the highest NBDE scores for Part-1. Yet, I could not find any recent info. Just because a school does not publish their scores does not mean that their scores are not good. I mean, UConn states they are "consistently #1 or #2 in the nation", yet I couldn't find any scores to back up this claim.

On Another note, I think it's interesting how some people state that their dental program "lacks" a good clinical education. What are you comparing it to? None of use have or will experience another school, so how can you state that you're not getting a good clinical education? Enlighten me please...


UCSF Class of 2007 (not very recent):
http://dentistry.ucsf.edu/about/newsbrief-09JAN06.html

UCLA from 2004 (not very recent):
http://www.dent.ucla.edu/NewsEvents/main.asp?id=514

UPenn...nothing.

Columbia...nothing.

UConn in 2003 (not very recent):
http://advance.uconn.edu/2003/030331/03033103.htm
This just talks about how they are consistently the best, but they don't give any results for 2005, 2006, or 2007...
http://72.14.253.104/univ/uconn?q=c...scores+2005&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us&ie=UTF-8

Columbia07 said:

On Another note, I think it's interesting how some people state that their dental program "lacks" a good clinical education. What are you comparing it to? None of use have or will experience another school, so how can you state that you're not getting a good clinical education? Enlighten me please...

Click to expand...

My brother is a graduate of Pitt's dental program and is specializing in Pedo right now. My dad is a UOP graduate and my Aunt is a UCLA graduate. I would say I am fairly well qualified to evaluate a program. Also, one does not need to attend other schools to know when they have a solid or poor program.

On another note I think it is interesting that first year dental students who have NEVER BEEN TO DENTAL SCHOOL think they are experts on dental schools, and make broad assumptions about other people's comments because they are being defensive..

I'm not denying what you say. I'm also not trying to defend USC or any other program. I just believe that because a program doesn't post their board scores has no relation to whether or not the school's students do well on part-1 of the NBDE. Also, I trust that your family members would be honest with you and tell you about their different experiences at the various schools they've attended. However, this still does not give me any indication of whether or not USC has a sound clinical program. On what criteria do you evaluate the program and what are you comparing it to besides someone else's experience? I value your opinion because you go to USC and that is the reason why I'm asking you these questions. I would like to find out as much as possible about the program so don't get the wrong idea. At the same time, I think that you've made some assumptions too. Also, you're experience at USC is going to get in the way of you making an objective statement about the school (although, this is obvious).

bmrboy19 said:

"That sounds like ur saying it IS like that not it may happen..."

Click to expand...

Nice.... I can't wait to meet the 0-11's.

I find resources sessions to be not only informative, but interesting as well.

The only reason they work is because Dr. Parish is the lecturer. This guy could make the US Tax Code seem like the most exciting thing you ever heard. I actually attend his oral pathology lectures for fun on my free time. Who knew learning could be fun???

I know Dentofalltrades is an '09 and he knows way more stuff than me, but I have heard that the 09's tend to complain alot. I suppose it's because they just went through the toughest semester of dental school. Can't blame him for being disgruntled. And who knows? We 0'10 might feel the same way, a year from now.

briansle said:

......but I have heard that the 09's tend to complain alot. I suppose it's because they just went through the toughest semester of dental school. Can't blame him for being disgruntled. And who knows? We 0'10 might feel the same way, a year from now.

Click to expand...

Yea my best friend is also an 09 and he says many people tend to complain a lot because of the toughest trimester @ USC! We will def go through this phase!

seansk said:

Yea my best friend is also an 09 and he says many people tend to complain a lot because of the toughest trimester @ USC! We will def go through this phase!

Click to expand...

I would not write it off to "going through a difficult portion of the curriculum." In my opinion the program at USC is lacking, and I wish I had gone elsewhere. This is from having in depth discussions with my dad, aunt, brother and family friends who are all graduated dentists from other schools.

seansk said:

Yea my best friend is also an 09 and he says many people tend to complain a lot because of the toughest trimester @ USC! We will def go through this phase!

Click to expand...

Dude, that's where you and your other friend don't understand. This is not coming from this trimester alone, I have been here long enough to tell you that clinical diagnosis is not thought well at this school. They teach you how to do it...however oral surgery, endo, and perio Treatment and Diagnosis are not well thought; hence, coming with educated differential diagnosis for a patient can become challenging. Why do you think that is......you got it! There are no Classessss. LNs will always leave gaps in your learning and most of the sessions are not run by pros but by people who don't even know what's going on. Look, I did not had problems with this trimester; in fact, this is the one trimester where I actually felt like a dentist; but once again, clinical classes in dentistry would definitely be wonderful...it would make all of us awesome dentists; not only great hand skill dentist's but also incredible well-rounded clinicians. I do not want to be myopic and say this school is horrible; I've developed my hand skills tremendously. I am grateful USC accepted me; however, having been here and learned of the different programs out there, I would definitely go with the best deal out there for my dollar and I don't think USC is that choice. Look, you will start 2nd year and you will see what I mean. Right know is pretty soon for you to make judgment about our school. The best of luck to you

TeethVader said:

Dude, that's where you and your other friend don't understand. This is not coming from this trimester alone, I have been here long enough to tell you that clinical diagnosis is not thought well at this school. They teach you how to do it...however oral surgery, endo, and perio Treatment and Diagnosis are not well thought; hence, coming with educated differential diagnosis for a patient can become challenging. Why do you think that is......you got it! There are no Classessss. LNs will always leave gaps in your learning and most of the sessions are not run by pros but by people who don't even know what's going on. Look, I did not had problems with this trimester; in fact, this is the one trimester where I actually felt like a dentist; but once again, clinical classes in dentistry would definitely be wonderful...it would make all of us awesome dentists; not only great hand skill dentist's but also incredible well-rounded clinicians. I do not want to be myopic and say this school is horrible; I've developed my hand skills tremendously. I am grateful USC accepted me; however, having been here and learned of the different programs out there, I would definitely go with the best deal out there for my dollar and I don't think USC is that choice. Look, you will start 2nd year and you will see what I mean. Right know is pretty soon for you to make judgment about our school. The best of luck to you

Click to expand...

Thank you. I am getting *so* sick of all these 2010's and 2011's (WHO HAVEN'T EVEN DONE A DAY OF DENTAL SCHOOL) coming online and posting a flowery, rose-colored picture of USC when (a) they have no real dental experience (b) make incorrect assumptions about other *more experienced* USC students "are just unhappy and going through a phase (c) do not listen to other people's points of view and (d) generally speaking they do not know what they are talking about (because they are 2010's and can't speak firsthand on any of the comments that they make).

For a PBL school, their arguments and logic used is rather flawed. I think these 2010 USC students are doing a disservice to the predent community. Personally I believe the clinical program at USC is borderline poor. Nobody likes to admit this for a variety of reasons, some of them being internal school politics and the fact that we're paying $300k+ to receive a poorer clinical experience than much cheaper schools.

In summary, I too am grateful that USC accepted me, but feel that I could get a much better program that cost far less and receive a better education. No 2010 (or 2011) is going to be able to convince me otherwise. People, if you have been accepted to multiple schools, I would seriously consider attending somewhere else. Don't fall into the "but it's LA" trap. You can get a cheaper and better education somewhere else and move back to LA after 4 years to practice your whole life here. Go somewhere else than USC, you will be much happier with your decision.

PM me if you have any specific questions.

All these USC students who come on here and bash their $300,000 investment just amaze me. You are either on some sort of scholarship or just don't care about your investment. Look, you go to USC! You, and you alone made the decision to come to this school. You knew about the advantages and disadvantages of PBL, and you still chose to come here. I understand you regret coming to this school, but why would you try and ruin it's reputation. For the rest of your life you will tell patients and other professionals where you graduated from. As of right now, USC has a tremendous reputation, at least in southern california, so don't ruin that. By the way, how do you get off saying that the clinical education is lacking when you are a 2nd year. Talk to us in your first year after you graduate and let us know how your clinical education was. I have friends who have graduated from USC Full 100% PBL and are doing great in the "outside world". By the way, you can learn as much or as little as you want at this school. Put in the extra work, and you will be able to surpass the skills of students across the country. I respect you guys for wanting to be the best clinician's possible, I just think there are better ways to go about it rather than discouraging everyone from coming here. For the record, I attend USCSD and I think it's a great school, and up to this point in my education have zero regrets of attending this school. (I'm also a second year)

Wizz, which dental school do you attend? I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. That's why I'm not a huge fan of internet message boards. It's easier to get your point across person to person. I do defend my original post though, that USC has produced excellent clinicians since it's inception in 1898, and just from "MY" perspective (the dentists I know who attended USC, the general public perception of the school, patients who have had dental work done at the school clinic) is all positive. Next time I post I'll be sure to give references, since all the posts on here cite them usually.

FIGHT ON!

Namotu said:

All these USC students who come on here and bash their $300,000 investment just amaze me. You are either on some sort of scholarship or just don't care about your investment. Look, you go to USC! You, and you alone made the decision to come to this school. You knew about the advantages and disadvantages of PBL, and you still chose to come here. I understand you regret coming to this school, but why would you try and ruin it's reputation. For the rest of your life you will tell patients and other professionals where you graduated from. As of right now,

Click to expand...

See! That's the problem! Everyone at USC is too afraid to say anything in fear of internal school politics or that telling it how it is jeopardizes their personal success. Unfortunately, this means that no predents find out just how bad it is at USC. I say we let people know about problems at USC and have full disclosure. That way future dental students will vote with their feet, and go to the school they think is best for them. If students still come to USC, then there isn't a problem. More realistically fewer students will attend USC making the dean realize there is a big problem and making some much needed changes. By saying nothing, to "protect USC's reputation" will only make the problems worse.

dentofalltrades said:

See! That's the problem! Everyone at USC is too afraid to say anything in fear of internal school politics or that telling it how it is jeopardizes their personal success. Unfortunately, this means that no predents find out just how bad it is at USC. I say we let people know about problems at USC and have full disclosure. That way future dental students will vote with their feet, and go to the school they think is best for them. If students still come to USC, then there isn't a problem. More realistically fewer students will attend USC making the dean realize there is a big problem and making some much needed changes. By saying nothing, to "protect USC's reputation" will only make the problems worse.

Click to expand...

Amen to this, very well put

dentofalltrades said:

See! That's the problem! Everyone at USC is too afraid to say anything in fear of internal school politics or that telling it how it is jeopardizes their personal success. Unfortunately, this means that no predents find out just how bad it is at USC. I say we let people know about problems at USC and have full disclosure. That way future dental students will vote with their feet, and go to the school they think is best for them. If students still come to USC, then there isn't a problem. More realistically fewer students will attend USC making the dean realize there is a big problem and making some much needed changes. By saying nothing, to "protect USC's reputation" will only make the problems worse.

Click to expand...

Considering there are some 5000 applicants/year who go without a seat, it would take a lot of campaigning for you to start making seats go unfilled.

armorshell said:

Considering there are some 5000 applicants/year who go without a seat, it would take a lot of campaigning for you to start making seats go unfilled.

Click to expand...

Yes and no. Not all 5000 applicants are what you would consider to be "quality applicants." I never said seats would go unfilled, but in my previous post I was a little vague so I understand how my comment could be interpreted that way.

What I mean is if USC students stop being too afraid that letting people know USC has some major problems, in fear of internal school politics affecting their personal success, predents will take notice. The number of quality applicants will go down, and the dean will take notice of that.

If nobody says anything, things will remain the same. In my opinion that is too bad. There are some big problems with the clinical aspects at USC that I wish would improve.

dentofalltrades said:

Yes and no. Not all 5000 applicants are what you would consider to be "quality applicants." I never said seats would go unfilled, but in my previous post I was a little vague so I understand how my comment could be interpreted that way.

What I mean is if USC students stop being too afraid that letting people know USC has some major problems, in fear of internal school politics affecting their personal success, predents will take notice. The number of quality applicants will go down, and the dean will take notice of that.

If nobody says anything, things will remain the same. In my opinion that is too bad. There are some big problems with the clinical aspects at USC that I wish would improve.

Click to expand...

I think your firsthand feedback is invaluable to anyone considering going there. Getting the real deal from people in the program is what helped me make my decision, and knowing the pro's and con's of each program is so important to hear about for anyone considering where the next 4 years of their life and money goes to. You're doing the right thing and I don't think you need to keep defending yourself when you're trying to help others out.

TeethVader said:

Amen to this, very well put

Click to expand...

Thank you. I have never bought into this "protect SC's reputation or else it will affect you personally as a dentist." There are a few good things about SC but overall I know a lot of students are very unhappy and wish they could have gone elsewhere. Very few of the students speak up because most students are afraid of doing anything to SC's already fading reputation in that it will hurt their chances when they get out into the real world.

haha all you guys are funny! fight, fight! I mean Fight ON!! The more I look At SDN and the forums around here the more I start to realize that the forums are generally negatively biased!
If your happy, you usually don't complain!

I think student opinions are valuable, but they are also very subjective. Dentofalltrades obviously dislikes USC, but I don't think it's his responsibility to try and persuade people from making a very important decision is their life. You're not doing anyone a favor. The school is not good for you, but other people that go there love it, what gives? Your ranting is only confusing people. Maybe there are "internal political" problems, but if this is truly the case, something will be done about it. It's absurd to think that a school would let itself slide off the deep end.

I went to SC for four years for undergrad, and I know ~15 people that go to SC dental (yes, some are in the 2009 class, other's in the 2008 class and some in the 2010 class) and all of them seem to love it. Your problems with the school are obviously not universally felt.

Instead of ranting on SDN, why don't YOU make a change at the school?

It's his money that going to the school, and thus his right as a consumer to display the product he is receiving as he wishes. If he is unsatisfied, he should tell people about it. Otherwise how is change going to be brought about?

If there is a significant problem at USC, the only way you can bring about change (and this is true of most other situations as well) is to hit them where it counts, their pocketbook.

philchungski said:

after reading the replies to my post and reply posts in general... i feel like people on here just have nothing better to do than to waste their time, ranting and complaining about things.

my intention of posting what i posted wasnt to get those kind of responses... it was just some information that i wanted to share so that those applying to usc had another perspective of what its like there...

and one last thing... no need to talk trash on the predents... dont place yourself on a higher pedastal because you think you know more than a predent... as for myself... i went to usc for undergrad and was highly involved in the dental school and its programs.. i think i have quite a bit of knowledge accumulated from those experiences... and i have the right to share that...

i dont give a damn if everyone in your family, from each generation, was a dentist... that proves nothing... you may happen to be the worst dentist of the family.. who knows?... you may also be the stupidest dentist who couldnt get in anywhere else besides usc... i wouldnt credit myself so much because everyone is a dentist in your family.. i dont know them.... they may be worthless for all i know...

anyways.. take your *hit talkin' somewhere else where people really care.. honestly... this usc bashing is getting old... you're wasting space on my post... PEACE

Click to expand...

It's so funny when you read a line like this, and then the rest of the post is a giant ranting, complaining, trash talking session.

It's an internet forum. Get over yourself.

armorshell said:

It's so funny when you read a line like this, and then the rest of the post is a giant ranting, complaining, trash talking session.

Click to expand...

Thanks. Sadly, I think the irony and humor is lost on those who complain, then contribute to the trash talking.

dentofalltrades said:

See! That's the problem! Everyone at USC is too afraid to say anything in fear of internal school politics or that telling it how it is jeopardizes their personal success. Unfortunately, this means that no predents find out just how bad it is at USC. I say we let people know about problems at USC and have full disclosure. That way future dental students will vote with their feet, and go to the school they think is best for them. If students still come to USC, then there isn't a problem. More realistically fewer students will attend USC making the dean realize there is a big problem and making some much needed changes. By saying nothing, to "protect USC's reputation" will only make the problems worse.

Click to expand...

i'm a graduating senior at usc. i think pbl is useless and doesnt work but that doesnt mean i feel like i received a poor education. we're here to become dentists with good hand skills and thats what usc produces. our students are held to requirements that almost double some schools. i think that also contributes to the anguish and bitterness of most seniors. its so crowded here and not enough work to go around. but in the end, usc produces dentists who, right out of school, have more experience and better hand skills. what are the requirements like at other schools? i'm curious. we do 30 units of fixed, 11 arches of removable, 6 endo, 125 operative.