Ph.D. to M.D. wannabe....Please help.

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GatorPhD

GatorPhD

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Hi, first of all would like to say `hi' and that I've really enjoyed reading tons of posts and I'm excited to make my first.

I'll try to make it quick and still informative.

I'm 24 and just finished a Ph.D. in Operations Research (a branch of Mathematics) at a large public research university (any guesses?). My GPA was 3.95. My undergraduate work was in Mathematics and my GPA was 3.95 as well and my science/math GPA was 4.0.

Since 2003, I have been working as a researcher for the U.S. Air Force. I have had some good opportunities to publish a good number of papers over the last few years (6 journal pubs, 9 book chapters, and several conference papers) thanks totally to my Ph.D. advisor who is a titan in our field.

Now that's all well and good, but our field is not medicine. About a year and a half ago, I decided that medicine is really where my heart is and decided that after my grad school was over and my service to the Air Force is done, I'm going for it. So, I've tried to start prepping, a la volunteering in the local ER, reading every post on SDN like a fanatic, etc. My obligation to the Air Force will be done in May 2008 and I'll be applying to a ton of post-bac programs for the 2008-2009 year and I'm trying to get my ducks in a row for the upcoming application cycle.

After all that nonsense, my question is how much will my graduate work/publication record play into the adcom's (at the post-bac level mainly & med school assuming I get accepted and do OK in a PBPM program) decision making process? I talk to some people and they say, I'm good to go. But, I'm not so sure...Most of the people I know with Ph.D.'s in math want to be mathematicians. I guess I just see how some eyebrows would be raised. Please share your thoughts with me.

Thank you sincerely,
GatorPhD
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Hi Gator,

Fellow Floridian PhD-to-MD here. :) Basically, your PhD and pubs are like a really, really awesome set of ECs. You need to have a good UG GPA and MCAT score just like the trads do, plus clinical experience and maybe some volunteering experience. You've already got a fantastic UG GPA, so no sweat there. It sounds like you have most of your bases covered except for the MCAT. If you're a FL resident and you can score around a 30 on the MCAT, you will be very competitive for any of our state schools.
 
What I think:

1. You're 24 and you've already done more academically than most (smart, capable) people do in their whole lives. V. good.

2. You're 24 and you're re-evaluating what kind of career you want. You're 10-20 years ahead on this. V. good.

3. You're 24 and you're almost done making a pretty big military contribution. Already. V. good.

The default answer to anybody who challenges your path or motives is "Oh yeah? What did you have figured out by 24?"

I do suggest that you get exposed to as much civilian hospital and corporate life as you can, while you're doing prereqs. The military is very organized and disciplined (don't laugh), compared to the average civ org. You know how OR models human interaction? Make sure you've seen lots of smelly, unwashed, irrational humans interacting. Math and OR remove you from a lot of this, and medicine slams you into the middle of it. Don't assume you'll like it.

Best of luck to you, and do keep us posted.
 
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The thing about medicine is, I think everybody understand that it's a passion you have that you can't help but follow. It doesn't matter if you realized your passion in Jr. High and have been preparing since (moi) or if you're a middle aged guy coming in after working as a mechanic for a decade. If you can get across how medicine is the for you, nobody is going to raise an eyebrow on your background. From what you've wrote and your dedication, I don't think you'll have any difficulty convincing anyone that medicine is for you. Your graduate work will only help, but making you a diverse applicant, and not hurt you.

Now of course, you've got to couple the passion with the preparation. Your undergrad, graduate GPA is fantastic so that's a big plus to you. Add in some clinical exposure/volunteer work and you're golden. The only thing that can sink you now is bad grades in the prereq coursework and a bad MCAT score. And based on what you've accomplished, that shouldn't be that hard. Work really hard on prereqs, give yourself ample preparation for the MCAT, and you're a shoe in.
 
WOW you guys are fast!

I really appreciate your time and encouraging remarks. I just want to make sure I'm the best I can be. Some people that post here act like they are owed something from somebody. I'm not that guy who thinks he can ride his little graduate degree to the bank. I think the Ph.D. is like a curly tail on a pig; it's look good, but the bacon tastes about the same. :D

Ok, since I've got your attention...I've been volunteering at my local (civilian) hospital ER every Sunday morning since April. I love it and wish I could go more often, but I work M-F and have a wife, house, and 2 puppies! Anyway, I plan on doing this until I move to a post-bac program next summer.

I was thinking of also doing some work with Habitat for Humanity. My local group does work on Saturdays, so I could squeeze that in.

Question: Is HfH the way to go, or would you suggest something else like maybe Hospice, or both, or neither? You get the point.

Thanks!
 
GatorPhD said:
WOW you guys are fast!

I really appreciate your time and encouraging remarks. I just want to make sure I'm the best I can be. Some people that post here act like they are owed something from somebody. I'm not that guy who thinks he can ride his little graduate degree to the bank. I think the Ph.D. is like a curly tail on a pig; it's look good, but the bacon tastes about the same. :D

Ok, since I've got your attention...I've been volunteering at my local (civilian) hospital ER every Sunday morning since April. I love it and wish I could go more often, but I work M-F and have a wife, house, and 2 puppies! Anyway, I plan on doing this until I move to a post-bac program next summer.

I was thinking of also doing some work with Habitat for Humanity. My local group does work on Saturdays, so I could squeeze that in.

Question: Is HfH the way to go, or would you suggest something else like maybe Hospice, or both, or neither? You get the point.

Thanks!
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Another PhD-to-MD here. All of the clinical and volunteer activities you plan on committing to are very appropriate. I agree with QofQuimica: the only thing missing is an acceptable MCAT, and you can carry on volunteering while you are preparing for that. You have a stellar undergraduate GPA. Assuming you have completed all of the prerequisite courses for the medical schools where you intend to apply, you're good to go. The PhD will put you in the 'interesting' pile if your AMCAS essay gets the attention of the adcom, and if you have a strong interview performance, there's no reason why you won't gain admission.
 
GatorPhD said:
Hi, first of all would like to say `hi' and that I've really enjoyed reading tons of posts and I'm excited to make my first.

I'll try to make it quick and still informative.

I'm 24 and just finished a Ph.D. in Operations Research (a branch of Mathematics) at a large public research university (any guesses?). My GPA was 3.95. My undergraduate work was in Mathematics and my GPA was 3.95 as well and my science/math GPA was 4.0.

Since 2003, I have been working as a researcher for the U.S. Air Force. I have had some good opportunities to publish a good number of papers over the last few years (6 journal pubs, 9 book chapters, and several conference papers) thanks totally to my Ph.D. advisor who is a titan in our field.

Now that's all well and good, but our field is not medicine. About a year and a half ago, I decided that medicine is really where my heart is and decided that after my grad school was over and my service to the Air Force is done, I'm going for it. So, I've tried to start prepping, a la volunteering in the local ER, reading every post on SDN like a fanatic, etc. My obligation to the Air Force will be done in May 2008 and I'll be applying to a ton of post-bac programs for the 2008-2009 year and I'm trying to get my ducks in a row for the upcoming application cycle.

After all that nonsense, my question is how much will my graduate work/publication record play into the adcom's (at the post-bac level mainly & med school assuming I get accepted and do OK in a PBPM program) decision making process? I talk to some people and they say, I'm good to go. But, I'm not so sure...Most of the people I know with Ph.D.'s in math want to be mathematicians. I guess I just see how some eyebrows would be raised. Please share your thoughts with me.

Thank you sincerely,
GatorPhD
Click to expand...

Gator - Just going out on a limb here.... I take it you are a 61X who has just pinned on train tracks... if you have no idea what I'm talking about - forgive me.

I'm graduated with an OR degree as well. Didn't quite reach the level in the field that you have - but think it's pretty cool to find someone who may have a similar background.

You've got a killer GPA. I finished with a 3.5 in OR and thought I was doing well, but that seems to be on the "not so much" end around here. Of course, that was almost a decade ago.

Best of luck to you. If my early assesment was correct - we should talk more.
 
GatorPhD said:
After all that nonsense, my question is how much will my graduate work/publication record play into the adcom's (at the post-bac level mainly & med school assuming I get accepted and do OK in a PBPM program) decision making process? I talk to some people and they say, I'm good to go. But, I'm not so sure...Most of the people I know with Ph.D.'s in math want to be mathematicians. I guess I just see how some eyebrows would be raised. Please share your thoughts with me.

Thank you sincerely,
GatorPhD
Click to expand...


Ph.D in Biochemistry and Molecular Biology before medical school here. I can actually say that when I started undergraduate and graduate school, I had zero interest in medicine. When I began my post-doc work with a cardiologist, my interests changed and I was able to explain why I made the changes in career after so many years in science and teaching. Other than being a great topic of discussion at a couple of my interviews, my research wasn't much of a help or hindrance. It simply was a topic of discussion.

The subject matter of your Ph.D isn't going to make much difference either as long as you can articulate your interest in medicine. Your work ethic, your dedication to the study of medicine and the reasons for your career change will matter - mostly in terms of your ability to explain them- but the general subject matter of your Ph.D isn't going to matter that much. If you have carefully thought out your path and can articulate your interests, then you will be fine. Good luck!
 
GatorPhD said:
Question: Is HfH the way to go, or would you suggest something else like maybe Hospice, or both, or neither? You get the point.
Click to expand...

HfH is fine. You don't have to do all medical work, as long as you're doing some. Personally I recommend that you choose (or create!) an organization about which you are truly passionate, where you feel like that 4 hrs is the best spent time of your week (next to time with your family of course...). If HfH resonates like that for you, that's perfect. Maybe Special Olympics or literacy or wildlife conservation resonate.

Best of luck to you.
 
Hey,
I think you are all set!!!! Score well on the MCAT and you'll be GOLDEN!!! FYI-Once you reach the interview stage all of your interviewers will be very interested in your research and your passion for medicine. Seems like all of my interviews centered around those key points. Good Luck to you!!!!!:luck::luck::luck:
 
So I want to do a PhD and MD. Since I am not ready to apply for medical school and I am almost done with my masters, I was going to do the PhD to MD route since I am 31 and this would allow me to go with out a break in education. However, after reading all of these posts, I feel like the plan that I have had for so long is a really bad idea.
So here is some background. I got a BM in oboe performance and was in grad school when I had to quit playing because of a mystery illness. I immediately started over again and got two more bachelors, one in biology and one in psychology. My cumulative from this is about a 3.3. My health problem was taken care of and I went on for grad school in bio. I am almost done and I should have a 3.3-3.4. For pubs, I hope that my thesis will get in somewhere so that will have one first author and I have a middle on a paper and middle on a review article. I have extensive teaching in music and 2 years for science. I am also doing consistent volunteer work. I have yet to take the MCAT. I would love to hear what others have to say about this. :luck:
 
waytogo said:
So I want to do a PhD and MD. Since I am not ready to apply for medical school and I am almost done with my masters, I was going to do the PhD to MD route since I am 31 and this would allow me to go with out a break in education. However, after reading all of these posts, I feel like the plan that I have had for so long is a really bad idea.
So here is some background. I got a BM in oboe performance and was in grad school when I had to quit playing because of a mystery illness. I immediately started over again and got two more bachelors, one in biology and one in psychology. My cumulative from this is about a 3.3. My health problem was taken care of and I went on for grad school in bio. I am almost done and I should have a 3.3-3.4. For pubs, I hope that my thesis will get in somewhere so that will have one first author and I have a middle on a paper and middle on a review article. I have extensive teaching in music and 2 years for science. I am also doing consistent volunteer work. I have yet to take the MCAT. I would love to hear what others have to say about this. :luck:
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Are you planning to definitely do separate degrees? If so, my advice is to apply MD-only. It's a lot easier to get into grad school as a med student than it is to get into med school as a grad student (or as a PhD).
 
QofQuimica said:
Are you planning to definitely do separate degrees? If so, my advice is to apply MD-only. It's a lot easier to get into grad school as a med student than it is to get into med school as a grad student (or as a PhD).
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Absolutely. The reason I thought that I should continue for the PhD next instead of the way you suggest is because there would be no delay. If I apply for MD first, the earliest I could start is in 2 years. Now that my motivations and goals are clear, I want to just move on it. I guess that I need to reassess my approach.
 
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waytogo said:
Absolutely. The reason I thought that I should continue for the PhD next instead of the way you suggest is because there would be no delay
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Here's what I'm doing to make sure I don't loose time.

I purposely enrolled in a Master's program with the specific intent to 1) Take all the preqs for the PhD and 2) Take a few med school courses as well. Of course, this means I have all my eggs in one basket but I speak with adcoms at my school on a regular basis so they can monitor my progress.

One year in, things are going very well, and I'm retaking the MCAT this Sept. While there are plenty upsides, the downside to all this is that I could possibly not get into my current school which is a risk but one well worth it if I can save time earning the MD/PhD. I should also mention that this is a NonMSTP school which I think is more flexible in terms of how you can earn both degrees

Good Luck!
 
waytogo said:
I would love to hear what others have to say about this. :luck:
Click to expand...

Another PhD to MD here. Having messed around for a decade to complete both degrees, my mantra is simple: figure out what you want and chart the most direct course to obtain it. Two years from now you can be a rising M1 or you can be somebody's lab monkey. With the benefit of hindsight, I know what I'd do.
 
Yet another Ph to MD here...waytogo, I agree with what the fellow non-trads have suggested, it is probably a better idea to apply MD only. However, I did want to add that I did a tremendous amount of learning during my PhD, both academic and non-academic, that I am so grateful for and made me feel very prepared for med school in many ways. This is really more of an individual thing, but I guess I'm the only one here who probably would have done it again :laugh:
 
waytogo said:
Absolutely. The reason I thought that I should continue for the PhD next instead of the way you suggest is because there would be no delay. If I apply for MD first, the earliest I could start is in 2 years. Now that my motivations and goals are clear, I want to just move on it. I guess that I need to reassess my approach.
Click to expand...
Why will it take you at least two years? Have you not done any of the pre-reqs yet? In that case, you might consider getting an MS in the next two years while you prepare for med school. It will probably shave a year or so off your PhD since you won't need to retake the classes, assuming your PhD and MS are in the same field. (Well, at least that was how it worked out for me....)
 
QofQuimica said:
Why will it take you at least two years? Have you not done any of the pre-reqs yet? In that case, you might consider getting an MS in the next two years while you prepare for med school. It will probably shave a year or so off your PhD since you won't need to retake the classes, assuming your PhD and MS are in the same field. (Well, at least that was how it worked out for me....)
Click to expand...
I have not taken the MCAT yet. If I take it this year, I could apply for admission for 2009. I just have my thesis and defense left for my MS so that will be done soon. The classes I took for my masters are required for the PhD in immunology.
 
waytogo said:
I have not taken the MCAT yet. If I take it this year, I could apply for admission for 2009. I just have my thesis and defense left for my MS so that will be done soon. The classes I took for my masters are required for the PhD in immunology.
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I think taking your time is a great idea. In the big picture, there really is no difference in waiting a year besides he fact that it's best, especially as a nontrad, not to rush the admissions process.

At the rate I'm going, I'm looking at being an MS 1.5 and PhD candidate (cums and orals done, with initial project data completed) by Fall 2009 as well.:thumbup:
 
waytogo said:
I have not taken the MCAT yet. If I take it this year, I could apply for admission for 2009. I just have my thesis and defense left for my MS so that will be done soon. The classes I took for my masters are required for the PhD in immunology.
Click to expand...
I still think you should try to do the MD first. Some schools will allow students in the med school to transfer into their MD/PhD programs; you can ask about that at your interviews. But very, very few schools will allow grad students to tranfer into MD/PhD programs.
 
QofQuimica said:
I still think you should try to do the MD first.
Click to expand...
Sans MCAT, I think you have to consider that the OP may at this point be a better MD/PhD candidate than an MD only candidate. I know that was my problem 2 years ago so I addressed it, but depending on what you have going on in your life as a non trad, the OP may need some additional time to shore up the MD only side of his/her application.
 
Your phD and EC's as well as publications can do nothing but help your chances. I agree that not everyone realizes medicine as their passion early on in life. One thing you'll want to clarify on your app is why medicine? why not go on into mathematics? a question you've obviously already confronted. Anyways, all you have left to finish are your prereqs and the mcat. If you can get A's in advanced calculus and abstract math, I doubt physics and chemistry will pose much of a challenge conceptually to you. You've acheived wonderful accomplishments in such a short time, you should be golden for an acceptance.
 
GatorPhD said:
Hi, first of all would like to say `hi' and that I've really enjoyed reading tons of posts and I'm excited to make my first.

I'll try to make it quick and still informative.

I'm 24 and just finished a Ph.D. in Operations Research (a branch of Mathematics) at a large public research university (any guesses?). My GPA was 3.95. My undergraduate work was in Mathematics and my GPA was 3.95 as well and my science/math GPA was 4.0.

Since 2003, I have been working as a researcher for the U.S. Air Force. I have had some good opportunities to publish a good number of papers over the last few years (6 journal pubs, 9 book chapters, and several conference papers) thanks totally to my Ph.D. advisor who is a titan in our field.

Now that's all well and good, but our field is not medicine. About a year and a half ago, I decided that medicine is really where my heart is and decided that after my grad school was over and my service to the Air Force is done, I'm going for it. So, I've tried to start prepping, a la volunteering in the local ER, reading every post on SDN like a fanatic, etc. My obligation to the Air Force will be done in May 2008 and I'll be applying to a ton of post-bac programs for the 2008-2009 year and I'm trying to get my ducks in a row for the upcoming application cycle.

After all that nonsense, my question is how much will my graduate work/publication record play into the adcom's (at the post-bac level mainly & med school assuming I get accepted and do OK in a PBPM program) decision making process? I talk to some people and they say, I'm good to go. But, I'm not so sure...Most of the people I know with Ph.D.'s in math want to be mathematicians. I guess I just see how some eyebrows would be raised. Please share your thoughts with me.

Thank you sincerely,
GatorPhD
Click to expand...

I think the adcoms would be impressed with your background.

Have you ever considered becoming an actuary? I am thinking of your Operations Research skills. I know many actuaries. You would likely do well in this field.

You sound like a person who could do anything you put your mind to. Getting As in advanced math is not easy. You would likely do well on the MCAT and med school prerequisites.

It comes down to what you are most interested in. The more volunteering you do the better. Med school is expensive, and you will want to have as much information as possible before you decide to commit to it.
 
Thanks again for all your advice. I appreciate everyone's time and thoughts.

I considered actuarial science when I was an UG, but I wasn't really into it. I was always interested in classical global and combinatorial optimization problems (i.e. more the math and not the particular application) until I was pretty far along in grad school (and already working for the AF).

I first thought about medicine when some of my advisor's students starting working in new areas of computational neuroscience. There are many OR applications in this area. We now host an intl conference on computational neuroscience at UF.

Later through some family members/friends who are MDs I thought patient care was cooler than computers :rolleyes: and the more I thought about it, the better it sounded. I started volunteering (in April) at the local ER on Sunday's and love it more than my day job. I also (last week) started shadowing a family med doc and will continue this every other week.

What it really boils down to, for me at least, is that really think I have a passion for medicine. I know I don't have a passion for classical optimization problems. I think that some of my better talents wouldn't be utilized if I stayed where I am and I'm not that great of a mathematician anyway.

You guys probably don't care much about this, but I appreciate your time and responses. I like hearing other peoples' stories and how they really knew that medicine was for them.

Please keep your thoughts and advice coming. Sometimes I don't see the forest for the trees!

THANKS!
 
Application and admission to medical school is all about numbers.

I think a PhD is viewed well, but is only valuable in the context of a good GPA and good MCAT. If you have 2 people with exact same stats it may separate you and give you the advantage, but so does a good personality.

It looks like you have a great GPA and should have no problem as long as you get a 28+ MCAT.

If you want to look at Ivy's et cetera plan on a 33+ MCAT.
 
Hey everyone. I would appreciate some advice in this manner. I'm in a similar situation

I'm currently pursuing a PhD in electrophysiology (retinal if anybody is interested), and am possibly planning to get into an MD program afterwards. Neurology sounds like a field i would truly be intersted in getting in to. I haven't yet taken the MCAT, and should have a good 3 more years to prepare for it as well.

I'm worried about my undergrad GPA influencing my acceptance into Med school...it was hovering around 3.1ish. My Grad GPA should be closer to 3.9+ when all is said and done however. Do you guys think I will be forgiven for my undergrad performance, considering a strong grad GPA and strong publication record as well?

THANKS
 
ophidianphan said:
Hey everyone. I would appreciate some advice in this manner. I'm in a similar situation

I'm currently pursuing a PhD in electrophysiology (retinal if anybody is interested), and am possibly planning to get into an MD program afterwards. Neurology sounds like a field i would truly be intersted in getting in to. I haven't yet taken the MCAT, and should have a good 3 more years to prepare for it as well.

I'm worried about my undergrad GPA influencing my acceptance into Med school...it was hovering around 3.1ish. My Grad GPA should be closer to 3.9+ when all is said and done however. Do you guys think I will be forgiven for my undergrad performance, considering a strong grad GPA and strong publication record as well?

THANKS
Click to expand...
The undergraduate GPA is still the most important GPA and med school admissions committees are not always as forgiving as some applicants deserve. I won't lie to you. However, I know a couple of Ph.D.'s with UG GPA's close to yours and they made it into medical school after a decent showing on the MCAT and a presentable graduate GPA. If you have publications, that tends to get the attention of the private medical schools which generally secure more NIH funding; in my experience many state schools don't care because research is a secondary goal. Shoot for 30+ on the MCAT. Medical school is a lot of work but, in many ways, it's not as soul-destroying as completing a Ph.D. Good luck to you!
 
thanks scottish chap! And I'm actually very much enjoying the PhD process so far. I got a nice NSF teaching fellowship as well, in which I will help to improve the chemistry curriculum in local high schools (south Florida needs all the public school help they can get)...very hands on, in the classroom stuff. I'm guessing this won't hurt a med school application either.

As of right now, I'm just a little disillusioned as to why so much emphasis will still be put on my undergraduate GPA, when I was less mature and focused on goals as compared to now...when I know what I want and am succeeding in doing so. Sigh.

I guess my essays will have a lot of splainin' to do.
 
ophidianphan said:
As of right now, I'm just a little disillusioned as to why so much emphasis will still be put on my undergraduate GPA, when I was less mature and focused on goals as compared to now...when I know what I want and am succeeding in doing so. Sigh.

I guess my essays will have a lot of splainin' to do.
Click to expand...
I agree. It's just a tool to cut down on the huge applicant pool, that's all. With a fine showing on the MCAT, you should be fine, so don't go talking yourself out of anything yet. Even if you have to apply a couple of times, keep at it if this is what you really want to do.
 
I had a biochemistry minor, as well as a chemistry minor with my bio undergrad degree. I have mostly As and Bs in my undergrad biology courses.

I got a C and C+ in orgo 1 and 2... does anyone think I need to take orgo again?

Overall, what undergrad courses do you guys suggest taking in order to boost the undergrad GPA? I never took microbiology, and I got a C in an advanced biochemisty course as well, although over 9 credits of biochem i have a 3.33.


I'm just trying to figure out if it's gonna be possible to do.
 
ophidianphan said:
I had a biochemistry minor, as well as a chemistry minor with my bio undergrad degree. I have mostly As and Bs in my undergrad biology courses.

I got a C and C+ in orgo 1 and 2... does anyone think I need to take orgo again?

Overall, what undergrad courses do you guys suggest taking in order to boost the undergrad GPA? I never took microbiology, and I got a C in an advanced biochemisty course as well, although over 9 credits of biochem i have a 3.33.


I'm just trying to figure out if it's gonna be possible to do.
Click to expand...
I won't tell you what you should do, but I honestly think that more undergraduate courses might not be the best use of your time if you intend to make a meaningful dent in the GPA - you are not below 3.0 which is usually the point of no return for allopathic schools. You are way beyond the level of basic classes and I genuinely think your GPA may be compensated for--at least to some extent--by a nice MCAT score. After that, apply to the schools that like researchers.
 
I think based on what I've heard so far, I may take a few (but not go out of control) more undergrad courses. Heck, I've got 3-4 more years here, I'll figure out a way to do it. Gonna have to slick talk the adviser.

thanks alot chap, if anyone else who wants to chime in about their suggestions regarding the undergrad class situation, I would really appreciate it as well.

(Figuring out the feasibility of these options is the easiest part. now trying to understand if it's really what i want to do in life...haha, well you know)
 
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