so... what's going on...?

Q-Optics, surgical ergonomics - redefined
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DOCNY81

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Hi there, I just recieved a rej, from Darmouth saying that this year they have recieved over 600 applications... TWICE as last year...

Can someone please tell me from where in the world/hell (who knows) are all these new applicants comming from?

Has general surgery suddenly became more competitive?

thanks for answering.
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DOCNY81 said:
Can someone please tell me from where in the world/hell (who knows) are all these new applicants comming from?

Has general surgery suddenly became more competitive?

thanks for answering.
Click to expand...

India, Pakistan, and Uganda. As far as surgery being competitive, I hope you are being sarcastic. Surgery has been very competitive for the past couple of years. Good luck.
 
I am aware of the fact that GS is competitive, it has always be I think.
but... is it MORE competitive this year?
Why are programs receiving twice as much applications this year? than other years?
and what do you mean by competitive though...
are scores the most important thing?
what else are program directors looking these days? besides scores? :confused:




Thanks for the good wishes, as I can only wish you the same :)
 
Members don't see this ad :)
more ppl are definitely applying this year. The PD at my home institution said apps to our program are up 25%. On the interviews I am hearing 10, 15, 20 applicants from neighboring schools. I think my school was caught by surprise since no one applied categor gen surg as their primary application last year and there are 7 of us this year...

Some ppl are saying its a Gray's Anatomy phenomenon, i think its the effect of the 80 hr work week finally reaching surgery...
 
Sometimes programs inflate things in their rejection letters to make it seem more palatable for you.



Dear MS-4,
We know you discovered a cure for cancer during your medical school career at Harvard. We are further aware that you have the top 1% of board scores. However, this year we have received a larger than normal number of applications and can therefore not offer you an interview to our program at this time. We wish you the best of luck in your future endeavors.


Sincerely,
Random GS Program
 
We have more applicants this year than ever before, too. I don't really know how to explain it, either.
 
Pir8DeacDoc said:
Sometimes programs inflate things in their rejection letters to make it seem more palatable for you.



Dear MS-4,
We know you discovered a cure for cancer during your medical school career at Harvard. We are further aware that you have the top 1% of board scores. However, this year we have received a larger than normal number of applications and can therefore not offer you an interview to our program at this time. We wish you the best of luck in your future endeavors.


Sincerely,
Random GS Program
Click to expand...


LOLOLOL :laugh:
 
SocialistMD said:
We have more applicants this year than ever before, too. I don't really know how to explain it, either.
Click to expand...

There should be a statistic out there somewhere as to how many applicants there are. The last several years there have been very few unmatched spots perhaps people are putting more programs on their ERAS?

Good luck to everyone
 
are those new applicants american grads only or foreign grads as well...?

How many of you in your different programs heard about this new "phenomena"...

may it be that the same # of students are just applying to more programs than usual? to make sure? (flooding the system?)...

If the number of medical grads have not changed much... that means that there are other specialties that are being left without applicants right? (they must be comming from somewhere... right?)....


:idea:
 
Obviously they're coming from Derm and Plastics! :laugh:
 
europeman said:
Obviously they're coming from Derm and Plastics! :laugh:
Click to expand...

haha most likely... :D but where else? haha...

how many of you are considering interviewing at more than 7 places for GS this year?
 
I've heard from many programs that there applications have doubled. A lot of those are community based programs and I think people are realizing more and more every year that community programs aren't a bad way to go. I think that a lot of it has to do with the realization that surgery is competitive and that you don't want to not match. I applied to 33 programs and am going to about 18 interviews. Probably way more than I need to but looking at the stats of people getting into surgery after not matching are scaring me into it.
 
We've seen general surgery applications going up for the last several years. I'm not sure what the pin the cause on.

If its because people think that all or even most general surgery residencies are rigidly adhering to the "80 hour work week", they are in for a bit of a suprise.

I would be more likely to assume that its:

the natural cycling of specialty popularity
applicants applying to more programs in an effort to match
overflow from unmatched applicants last year
 
Members don't see this ad :)
It's not just general surgery, it's every specialty... just look at www.nrmp.org and look at last year's number of active applicants and the ones from the year before.... it's on the rise. 5 things are causing this rapid rise:

1) US med schools are enrolling more and more students than ever before. There was a call for doctors a few years back and they thought they can fix that by enrolling more students and...

2) New medical schools opening. Yes we have the first allopathic school to be opened in the US since 20 something years. Here in Florida.. and more are scheduled to be opened in the next 5 years. I think last year they gave free tuition for all students who were the first to enroll in the school? That's what I was told. Anyhow, it's open now and more are scheduled to open every year (I used to have a link to the schedule, I think there is one for next year as well). As well as DO schools are opening left and right.

3) More applicants are not matching from the year before. They are carrying over to the next year after, adding an avalanche effect to the active applicant list. It's not like they are banned from applying the next year after. NRMP shows the trend.

4) Plus there is a flood of FMGs (I am not saying US citizens mind you). UK had its gates closed to foreigners a couple of years back and as a result, they all switched to try to come here with the famous H1 and J1 visa. You can see most of the effect in prelim surgery and prelim internal medicine (everyone wants to be a cardiologist and be rich?)

5) Residency cap remains in place ever since misses clinton put it in place. So the residency spots (other than the ones privately funded) have not been increasing (this doesnt apply to the military of course but not as many go military).

Hence, the ever rising increase in applications.
 
Faebinder said:
It's not just general surgery, it's every specialty... just look at www.nrmp.org and look at last year's number of active applicants and the ones from the year before.... it's on the rise. 5 things are causing this rapid rise:

1) US med schools are enrolling more and more students than ever before. There was a call for doctors a few years back and they thought they can fix that by enrolling more students and...

2) New medical schools opening. Yes we have the first allopathic school to be opened in the US since 20 something years. Here in Florida.. and more are scheduled to be opened in the next 5 years. I think last year they gave free tuition for all students who were the first to enroll in the school? That's what I was told. Anyhow, it's open now and more are scheduled to open every year (I used to have a link to the schedule, I think there is one for next year as well). As well as DO schools are opening left and right.

3) More applicants are not matching from the year before. They are carrying over to the next year after, adding an avalanche effect to the active applicant list. It's not like they are banned from applying the next year after. NRMP shows the trend.

4) Plus there is a flood of FMGs (I am not saying US citizens mind you). UK had its gates closed to foreigners a couple of years back and as a result, they all switched to try to come here with the famous H1 and J1 visa. You can see most of the effect in prelim surgery and prelim internal medicine (everyone wants to be a cardiologist and be rich?)

5) Residency cap remains in place ever since misses clinton put it in place. So the residency spots (other than the ones privately funded) have not been increasing (this doesnt apply to the military of course but not as many go military).

Hence, the ever rising increase in applications.
Click to expand...

This is both informative and terrifying. :scared:
 
Don't we have some stats around here that show that your chances of matching are higher if you rank 10 places (which would then presume that you have interviewed at at least 10)?

I know very few people who only interviewed at 7 places. I stopped at 14 or 17, can't remember.
 
Gosh, I feel like NRMP is the BIG secret of medical school... they just dont want you to look at the statistics on there do they? (I see myself saying the same thing 10 years from now... is that how program directors feel?) heh.

Here are some pictures for the lazy.

deleteme1.jpg

As you can see with the above image, US SENIORS (the top dogs) rank even more than 10 programs... At least those who match... those who dont match clearly rank less. Lets look at it in more details.

deleteme2.jpg

So... we can see people dont match even with 15+ even when they are US seniors. MMMmm... though frankly if you dont match with 10+ interviews and you are a US senior, I start to worry about your humanity... perhaps you have parkinsons and your face shows no affect? :cool:
 
Faebinder said:
Gosh, I feel like NRMP is the BIG secret of medical school... they just dont want you to look at the statistics on there do they? (I see myself saying the same thing 10 years from now... is that how program directors feel?) heh.

Here are some pictures for the lazy.

View attachment 9387

As you can see with the above image, US SENIORS (the top dogs) rank even more than 10 programs... At least those who match... those who dont match clearly rank less. Lets look at it in more details.

View attachment 9388

So... we can see people dont match even with 15+ even when they are US seniors. MMMmm... though frankly if you dont match with 10+ interviews and you are a US senior, I start to worry about your humanity... perhaps you have parkinsons and your face shows no affect? :cool:
Click to expand...

well... if you noticed, the MEDIAN was 10 programs, but do you realize that if you ranked 6 programs still gives you a 50:4 (90%)[thse second link] chances of matching? for us grads... so did you ranked more than you needed? or just wanted to make extra sure...

by the way I have seen this pdf before... (I am not THAT lazy) LOL :laugh:
 
DOCNY81 said:
well... if you noticed, the MEDIAN was 10 programs, but do you realize that if you ranked 6 programs still gives you a 50:4 (90%)[thse second link] chances of matching? for us grads... so did you ranked more than you needed? or just wanted to make extra sure...
Click to expand...

For those who ranked 6 programs, looked like 36 in 44 matched...81%.
 
Blade28 said:
For those who ranked 6 programs, looked like 36 in 44 matched...81%.
Click to expand...

yes completely true, sorry for the mistake, apparently I am not only lazy but also blind!!! LOL :laugh:

that # is for 7 interviews...
 
Or crosseyed?
 
Did anyone read Fischers article in JAMA about the decline of the General Surgeon. It was pretty interesting. Nothing new for most surgeons, but hopefully will get the attention of MD's in other fields
 
DrDawg said:
Did anyone read Fischers article in JAMA about the decline of the General Surgeon. It was pretty interesting. Nothing new for most surgeons, but hopefully will get the attention of MD's in other fields
Click to expand...


Is this the article you are talking about?

The Impending Disappearance of the General Surgeon

[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Josef E. Fischer, MD .
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]JAMA. 2007;298(18):2191-2193. .

I don't have full access to the article, do you? I will like to take a look :)
 
Oops... just not that savvy
 
On the topic of the popularity of gen surg:

there's an article in the current (December) American J of Surg about resident attrition. It seems that the rate of attrition for general surgery in the post-80 hr workweek is HIGHER. Makes one wonder if the fear that people would choose surgery thinking that the work hour restrictions would make it better are finding that not to be the case. The vast majority who voluntarily leave seem to do so for more lifestyle friendly specialties: Gas, FM and EM.
 
DOCNY81 said:
Is this the article you are talking about?

The Impending Disappearance of the General Surgeon

[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Josef E. Fischer, MD .
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]JAMA. 2007;298(18):2191-2193. .

I don't have full access to the article, do you? I will like to take a look :)
Click to expand...

I think the article is disingenuous. Why would trainees seek a career in which they work harder, longer, and for less pay than their subspecialty peers? This is not a phenomenon of the "80 hour" generation. This is simple market economics.

Dr. Fischer conspicuously failed to mention in his article the role of the general surgery leadership/establishment in the "impending disappearance" of general surgery. Instead he prefers to attribute it solely to a series of unfortunate Medicare events, and the current generation of medical students/residents who are unwilling to work as hard as his generation was.
 
Celiac Plexus said:
I think the article is disingenuous. Why would trainees seek a career in which they work harder, longer, and for less pay than their subspecialty peers? This is not a phenomenon of the "80 hour" generation. This is simple market economics.

Dr. Fischer conspicuously failed to mention in his article the role of the general surgery leadership/establishment in the "impending disappearance" of general surgery. Instead he prefers to attribute it solely to a series of unfortunate Medicare events, and the current generation of medical students/residents who are unwilling to work as hard as his generation was.
Click to expand...

Very well said, especially the part I bolded. He seems a little bitter.
 
Pir8DeacDoc said:
Very well said, especially the part I bolded. He seems a little bitter.
Click to expand...


Every generation thinks the one below them basically is good for nothing. At ACS I went to one of those fluffy education talks and an attending in his 40's was talking about residents now a days. After he got off his soap box another attending in his late 60's or 70's pointed out that they said the same about his generation.

That said I didn't feel he was blamming much on the 80 hour work week, and residents not wanting to work hard, but more that surgeons have been hit particularly hard my health care fianance reforms, the business aspect of medicine has been so complex and time consuming that private groups find it more appealling to be bought out by hospitals, and subspecialist generally are able to avoid ER call.
 
As far as the generational gap goes I don't understand how they work harder than the surgeons of this generation. Were there previously More O.R.s per surgeon or where the Operating Room hours longer? Were surgeon's blocked more time in the OR and expected to do clinic later into the day? Where did all this extra work fit in to the schedule? I'll believe that they spent more time at the hospital, but I kinda feel that maybe we've become more efficient with all our technology and things to where we don't have to stay after the cases finish for 4 hours. It seems like our generation is pushed to do more surgeries, see clinic patients faster, etc just to be profitable, so I'd really like to see the generational work schedule/conditions explained before I'm accused of being lazy for loving my wife and wanting a family. I'll agree that family practice doctors work tons less than they do now working four 10's a week with no patients in the hospital, no housecalls, but I'm not sure how it works out for surgeons.

Justin
 
SocialistMD said:
We have more applicants this year than ever before, too. I don't really know how to explain it, either.
Click to expand...
It's because of all the doctor shows. Everyone wants to become a doctor nowadays because "it's so cool".
 
GodoShingo said:
It's because of all the doctor shows. Everyone wants to become a doctor nowadays because "it's so cool".
Click to expand...

Way to not read the thread entirely. :thumbup:

The doctor shows boost the number of applicants to medical school but has little if any impact on number of applicants to residency.
 
Faebinder said:
Way to not read the thread entirely. :thumbup:

The doctor shows boost the number of applicants to medical school but has little if any impact on number of applicants to residency.
Click to expand...
Way to be too serious :thumbup:.
I was obviously trying to make a sarcastic joke. But I guess you're to cool to notice.
 
Faebinder said:
Gosh, I feel like NRMP is the BIG secret of medical school... they just dont want you to look at the statistics on there do they? (I see myself saying the same thing 10 years from now... is that how program directors feel?) heh.

Here are some pictures for the lazy.

View attachment 9387

As you can see with the above image, US SENIORS (the top dogs) rank even more than 10 programs... At least those who match... those who dont match clearly rank less. Lets look at it in more details.

View attachment 9388

So... we can see people dont match even with 15+ even when they are US seniors. MMMmm... though frankly if you dont match with 10+ interviews and you are a US senior, I start to worry about your humanity... perhaps you have parkinsons and your face shows no affect? :cool:
Click to expand...


So, can someone explain, why is it that US SENIORS (the top dogs, as stated above) have a median of 10 programs ranked to make certain that they are matching, and foreing grads have a median of 3 ranked programs, obviously less...??? (the first link)... quite wierd uh?:confused:
 
DOCNY81 said:
So, can someone explain, why is it that US SENIORS (the top dogs, as stated above) have a median of 10 programs ranked to make certain that they are matching, and foreing grads have a median of 3 ranked programs, obviously less...??? (the first link)... quite wierd uh?:confused:
Click to expand...

maybe the foreign grads aren't getting as many interview offers and thus can't rank as many programs?
 
Syranope2 said:
maybe the foreign grads aren't getting as many interview offers and thus can't rank as many programs?
Click to expand...

That's probably true but its a little known secret you can rank a program without interviewing there.

In any event, FMGs tend to get less interviews despite applying to more programs, so I suspect that those that do match have a shorter rank list than AMGs.
 
Syranope2 said:
maybe the foreign grads aren't getting as many interview offers and thus can't rank as many programs?
Click to expand...

sure, its true foreing grads dont have as many interviews, but with only 3 they are in the matching group, as compared 10 for the US SENIORS (as stated below) to match... ?
explanations to this? :confused:

are foreing grads better at interviewing?
If they get an interview it's because they are getting hired? no idea...
 
DOCNY81 said:
sure, its true foreing grads dont have as many interviews, but with only 3 they are in the matching group, as compared 10 for the US SENIORS (as stated below) to match... ?
explanations to this? :confused:

are foreign grads better at interviewing?
If they get an interview it's because they are getting hired? no idea...
Click to expand...

Likely the FMGs are interviewing at less prestigious places and therefore get hired easily. Also, remember FMGs can get signed on as a prematch. And not have to rank at all;causing the # averages to get skewed.
 
Kimberli Cox said:
That's probably true but its a little known secret you can rank a program without interviewing there.

In any event, FMGs tend to get less interviews despite applying to more programs, so I suspect that those that do match have a shorter rank list than AMGs.
Click to expand...

What would be the point of ranking a program you didn't interview at? Why would they rank you if they don't know who you are? Am I missing something?
 
not me said:
What would be the point of ranking a program you didn't interview at? Why would they rank you if they don't know who you are? Am I missing something?
Click to expand...

No, you're not missing something.

But every year people rank programs they didn't interview at.

Either mistakenly, because they think somehow programs rank everyone who applies or in some pipe dream that maybe, just maybe they will somehow get ranked.

It may be Urban Legend, but I have heard about people being invited for interviews at places they didn't apply to and ranked by places they didn't interview.
 
The reason why US seniors rank more is because they interview at more.

You might think, well that sucks, but the fact is, more US seniors match in surgery than FMGs (certainly more in catagorical surgery than the 90% useless prelim (yes you heard me, 80-90% of FMGs that take prelims surg dont go to catagorical surg. Saw the study somewhere and I remember discussing it with aProgramDirector)).

I can't comment on US seniors that didnt match because it's a mixed bag. On one hand, some didnt match cause they didnt apply to not so prestigeous programs... but on the other hand some dont match because frankly their scores are low and University programs wont take em and the not so prestigeous programs dont care if they are US seniors or not.. they just want someone who wont fail the surgical boards so they dont go on probation. Hence the FMG trained in surgery outside the US and with high scores is more attractive.

My guess is, if you are a US senior and you are below 200 on step 1 and didnt even get step 2 yet.. you better be interviewing at minimum 20 places to have a fighting chance.

Did I just paint you a grim picture? Sorry. I figured you wanted some truth.
 
Faebinder said:
4) Plus there is a flood of FMGs (I am not saying US citizens mind you). UK had its gates closed to foreigners a couple of years back and as a result, they all switched to try to come here with the famous H1 and J1 visa. You can see most of the effect in prelim surgery and prelim internal medicine (everyone wants to be a cardiologist and be rich?)
Click to expand...


That's the most likely explanation. Tons of Indians and**** on the interview trail who would have normally flooded the UK market.
 
Misterioso said:
That's the most likely explanation. Tons of Indians and ****on the interview trail who would have normally flooded the UK market.
Click to expand...

And, from what I have see, Step 1 & 2 scores ~99s.
 
racist POS. ban him.
 
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