Nutrition and DO's

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JWE27

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This has irritated me for a long time, and I've been patiently waiting to hear someone bring it up on this forum (it's discussed very briefly on the allo side), but it seems I'm the only one this blatantly concerns. Does it not bother anyone that despite the "preventative" philosophy of DO programs (okay, I'm not trying to get into a DO's-do-not-practice-prevention debate - let's assume it's true) that nutrition is barely covered in the curriculum? Maybe it is more at some schools than others, but I feel there should be significantly more training in this area - it's a HUGE part of health and provides the vast majority of prevention. I realize I'm biased as a dietitian and someone who did many years of nutrition research and graduate work, but I do firmly believe in its relevance. Besides, many physicians (DO's and MD's) discuss dietary habits with their patients (from a certain point of view, this is almost malpractice/practicing without a license considering the education given on this topic!!)! I feel this is an embarrassingly overlooked area of medical education and should be changed immediately.

Thoughts?
Solutions?
Corrections?

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I agree, call me crazy but I think doctors should also have some foundation and knowledge on exercise as well.
 
Nutrition has no bearing on health. All the hoopla is nothing more than propoganda from the fruit and milk industries.

Just Kidding! I agree with you. I think it would certainly prevent a lot of longterm diseases. This would save 1 million trillion dollars (rounded to the nearest 1000). The problem is personal responsibility. We can tell people to eat healthy all they want... but if they don't want to do it, they won't.
 
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I agree, call me crazy but I think doctors should also have some foundation and knowledge on exercise as well.

I definitely agree. If eating is the "in" and exercise is the "out", how can you not consider both when being educated?? However, I'm afraid we're further away from getting more exercise education than nutrition education. Sadly, I regularly dealt with bias/stereotyping from my nutrition professors about the exercise physiology classes I took (agh!)! For some reason, exercise is not seen to be as much as a science as it should be (it most certainly is). Seems we have a long way to go in dismantling ridiculous precedents on many levels...
 
I totally agree with you on this issue. Having a background in nutrition myself, I am looking for a school that incorporates it into the ciriculum and few schools do. Nutrition is medicine and there is so much research out there that underscores that fact. Its sad that all medical schools aren't yet prepared for this reality. I think our background will give us an advantage as physicians and depending on the specialty you choose, you will get some nutrition (ie. endocrine or preventive cardio). However, while I think it is important that docs are educated on nutrition basics, if you think about it from a specialty perspective, dietitians are experts in their field. Doctors should be referring patients to them for nutritional issues or working with in partnership with them.
 
When you guys are neck deep in the equivalent of a 45 credit semester I'd like to see how you react to yet another class being added to your schedule :laugh:

For what it's worth, yeah we should get at least a lecture or 3 on nutrition ;)
 
Thoughts?
Solutions?
Corrections?

First, it's "preventive" not "preventative", i.e. preventive care, preventive philosophy, or preventive medicine. I don't know why the first is used rather than the second, but that's the proper usage in medicine. Sorry, it's a pet peeve of mine.

Second, while it depends on the program you are talking about, in general, there is no greater focus on preventive care in osteopathic institutions than in allopathic ones. There is a lot of propaganda suggesting this is a defining quality, but sadly, I have discovered that it is not. The only real difference I've encountered is with the addition of OMM. Other than that, I am hard pressed to find anything different between my education and my colleagues from across the way. As JPH has already mentioned, there is no "osteopathic philosophy." I'm sure this will come as a shock to some. Medical school is essentially medical school, whether you are looking at an allopathic medical school or an osteopathic one (with the exception of OMM, of course).

Third, I do have classes in preventive medicine (but so do allopathic medical schools). So far, however, they have taken a decidedly epidemiological approach, with some biostatistics and EBM weaved into it. I have no comment about this. It is what it is.

Fourth, so far, informally, I have received some instruction in nutrition from across my classes. It's nothing signficant and a far cry from the level to you speak of. However, I am only a first year student, so perhaps, there will be more as I progress. In essence, I agree with you. There should be a bit more formal instruction in nutrition, but there isn't. It's an issue across all medical education. Nevertheless, from another point of view, there is enough to teach already. Schools can barely squeeze in what they want to right now. What will have to give way to squeeze it in? Nutrition is not on the boards as far as I know, so you can probably guess what kind of priority it has. I agree, though, that it is fallen by the wayside and that it isn't unimportant. However, I feel that as physicians we are taught to manage the process of patient care and to be consumate diagnosticians; we can, better than anyone else, develop a differential diagnosis, figure out the etiology of a condition, or pathology, and come up with a treatment plan. I often feel that we learn a little bit of everything, but nothing really in depth. That's the current emphasis in education, for better or worse.

I think it's a good idea to have more training in nutrition, but there is already too much to know. It would be even better to have nutritionists for us to consult and refer patients to. It can also help to have CME for nutrition and maybe even an elective rotation where we get some experience in clinical nutrition.

I don't know. You are right, though, that nutrition has been overlooked and some more instruction wouldn't hurt.
 
I agree that there should be more nutrition info given to future docs, but I can kind of see why its not a topic that receives specific attention while in med school. There is so much to cover, and not a ton of time to do it, so nutrition kind of gets put on the back burner. I personally took a few nutrition courses as an undergrad so that I would have more knowledge on the topic for both myself as well as my patients.

I do think that doctors can preach sound nutrition and exercise as much as they want, and some just will not listen. I place more of the deficit on poor nutrition on the person rather than on the medical field. Honestly, there is tons of free and easy to access information out there for people who are interested in eating more healthily. I dont really think that doctors need to know the metabolic pathways of every vitamin/mineral/etc...it seems kind of overload. I know I have found a few schools, both osteo and allo, that offer nutrition as a free-time elective. I'm pretty sure that what I've had so far is more extensive than just the one class though, so I will probably do something like medical spanish instead.

I know that if someone is interested, MSUCOM allows you to take ANY courses at their undergrad campus, WITHOUT EXTRA CHARGE, that you would be interested in. They have some pretty fantastic nutrition and dietetics courses (it was my undergrad, where I took my nutrition courses). There is one free way that anyone who is inclined to can take advantage of...
 
I think that primary care people, such as family practice, should have a list of a few personal trainers to refer their clients to. Educated trainers, as opposed to the hacks you could possibly wind up with if you go in without knowing what to look for. Also, information on running groups, triathlon training groups, etc., for all ages and ability levels. I know a lot of the docs in Austin do stuff like that.
 
Maybe physicians don't get too much training on nutrition because they can refer them out to dietitians:laugh:. My wife is a dietitian and she holds a far superior knowledge of nutrition compared to the physicians I have met. I think physicians have long focused on providing tertiary medical care but now are beginning to focus on primary interventions. I do agree that physicians need to not only know more about nutrition but things like health education and public health as well.
 
This guy would disagree that exercise is not a science: my former prof.
http://www.edb.utexas.edu/khe/exerphys/ivy.php


This article here:
http://www.utexas.edu/features/archive/2004/nutrition.html

along with "Nutrient Timing" and "The Performance Zone", are great resources for sports nutrition and supplementation.

Ivy is probably the world's foremost expert on the subject, particularly when it comes to glucose uptake. He is the GLUT4 guru.

I agree. Dr. Ivy is certainly a leader in the field (I took a class from him at UT when I was there...).
 
I'm sorry to hear that.

For such a brilliant dude, his lectures are amazingly boring.
 
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First, it's "preventive" not "preventative", i.e. preventive care, preventive philosophy, or preventive medicine. I don't know why the first is used rather than the second, but that's the proper usage in medicine. Sorry, it's a pet peeve of mine.

Second, while it depends on the program you are talking about, in general, there is no greater focus on preventive care in osteopathic institutions than in allopathic ones. There is a lot of propaganda suggesting this is a defining quality, but sadly, I have discovered that it is not. The only real difference I've encountered is with the addition of OMM. Other than that, I am hard pressed to find anything different between my education and my colleagues from across the way. As JPH has already mentioned, there is no "osteopathic philosophy." I'm sure this will come as a shock to some. Medical school is essentially medical school, whether you are looking at an allopathic medical school or an osteopathic one (with the exception of OMM, of course).

Third, I do have classes in preventive medicine (but so do allopathic medical schools). So far, however, they have taken a decidedly epidemiological approach, with some biostatistics and EBM weaved into it. I have no comment about this. It is what it is.

Fourth, so far, informally, I have received some instruction in nutrition from across my classes. It's nothing signficant and a far cry from the level to you speak of. However, I am only a first year student, so perhaps, there will be more as I progress. In essence, I agree with you. There should be a bit more formal instruction in nutrition, but there isn't. It's an issue across all medical education. Nevertheless, from another point of view, there is enough to teach already. Schools can barely squeeze in what they want to right now. What will have to give way to squeeze it in? Nutrition is not on the boards as far as I know, so you can probably guess what kind of priority it has. I agree, though, that it is fallen by the wayside and that it isn't unimportant. However, I feel that as physicians we are taught to manage the process of patient care and to be consumate diagnosticians; we can, better than anyone else, develop a differential diagnosis, figure out the etiology of a condition, or pathology, and come up with a treatment plan. I often feel that we learn a little bit of everything, but nothing really in depth. That's the current emphasis in education, for better or worse.

I think it's a good idea to have more training in nutrition, but there is already too much to know. It would be even better to have nutritionists for us to consult and refer patients to. It can also help to have CME for nutrition and maybe even an elective rotation where we get some experience in clinical nutrition.

I don't know. You are right, though, that nutrition has been overlooked and some more instruction wouldn't hurt.

Thank you for correcting my nomenclature on "preventive" medicine (I'm a bit anal about grammar, so I do really appreciate it). One favor deserves another, however: "nutritionist" is not a regulated term and widely abused. I think you mean "dietitian", which is the qualified nutrition professional you mention. I do understand that there is much on the plate of a physician in training, but simply letting some things go because of time constraints seems a bit irresponsible. I really don't know what would have to "give" to make room; but, I think it should be made more a priority. I think it will likely have to start with including it on the board exams, though.
 
I'm sorry to hear that.

For such a brilliant dude, his lectures are amazingly boring.

For the record - I didn't say it...
(I can nod in agreement, though...:D)
Funny how you don't have to be a good instructor to be a professor...
 
Thank you for correcting my nomenclature on "preventive" medicine (I'm a bit anal about grammar, so I do really appreciate it). One favor deserves another, however: "nutritionist" is not a regulated term and widely abused. I think you mean "dietitian", which is the qualified nutrition professional you mention.

Thanks, I never knew that. I will use that term from now on. :thumbup:

I do understand that there is much on the plate of a physician in training, but simply letting some things go because of time constraints seems a bit irresponsible. I really don't know what would have to "give" to make room; but, I think it should be made more a priority. I think it will likely have to start with including it on the board exams, though.

Putting it on the boards would be the fastest way to get it included in the curriculum. LOL
 
Maybe physicians don't get too much training on nutrition because they can refer them out to dietitians:laugh:. My wife is a dietitian and she holds a far superior knowledge of nutrition compared to the physicians I have met. I think physicians have long focused on providing tertiary medical care but now are beginning to focus on primary interventions. I do agree that physicians need to not only know more about nutrition but things like health education and public health as well.

The only problem with this is the sad range of quality you will get from dietitian to dietitian (I've been one for >8years and believe me, some are downright "lunch ladies" from grade school cafeterias!). I do enjoy being consulted when nutrition knowledge is required; however, many docs don't do this and take it upon themselves to educate the patients (sometimes very, very poorly and inaccurately!). It's worse when my rec's are trumped by docs who genuinely don't know what they're talking about dietarily - and the patient suffers! Oh well. This frustration continues to fuel the fire in me to change careers and help prevent this from happening! I actually plan on keeping my RD when I'm practicing as a DO. I feel it's a pretty unique combination. I got comments on this during every interview!
 
I think that is awesome. :thumbup:

Thanks for the positive feedback. Based on the limited knowledge I have of you from your posts, I have come to respect you. Your approval really does mean something to me.
[Don't worry, though - I'm not gonna get all teary-eyed...I promised myself I wouldn't cry...umpp...;)]
 
I think there is a desperate need for doctors to learn much more about nutrition and also toxicology, two subjects which currently receive only a nod in passing. A couple courses in basic counseling wouldn't hurt either.
 
To add all these classes, they should extend the pre-clinical years to 7 years.
 
To add all these classes, they should extend the pre-clinical years to 7 years.

Couldn't possibly be done in less than 11 years. No one minds the extra time, right...?:rolleyes:
 
i know nutrition is in the 2nd year curriculum at UMDNJ
 
To add all these classes, they should extend the pre-clinical years to 7 years.

Actually, with the pace info flows in med school, I think you could do a lot to patch these holes in just a couple of weeks. No one expects doctors to graduate medical school as nutrition experts, just to have enough of a basic understanding to field the common questions patients will pose to them, and to know when to refer patients to a practitioner with greater expertise ie. a dietitian.
 
Does insurance cover the visit to a dietician? If not, this hypothetical scenario would have a problem.
 
Does insurance cover the visit to a dietician? If not, this hypothetical scenario would have a problem.

And there's the big problem! So far, only a very limited amount of nutrition therapy is covered by insurance (i.e., some diabetes- and renal-related therapy). This is something I almost completely blame on the main nutrition organization, The American Dietetic Association. This is yet another reason I am getting out of the industry - pathetic lack of drive to change this broken dietetics system (to be fair, it's getting better, just not enough or fast enough for my taste).

Dragonwell: I agree. In many medical-school curricula, there are redundancies that can be corrected, thereby freeing up time for other needed education (e.g., nutrition, toxicology, human-relation/counseling skills, pedagogy, etc.). And, yes, it does not need to be enough to make experts out of future physicians, just enough to make them more competent in these lacking areas - especially since much of the general public assumes docs know everything about these areas (scary)!
 
That's why you have people like Dr. Adkins writing ****ty books and making tons of money, capitalizing on their perceived expertise.
 
Dragonwell: I agree. In many medical-school curricula, there are redundancies that can be corrected, thereby freeing up time for other needed education (e.g., nutrition, toxicology, human-relation/counseling skills, pedagogy, etc.). And, yes, it does not need to be enough to make experts out of future physicians, just enough to make them more competent in these lacking areas - especially since much of the general public assumes docs know everything about these areas (scary)!

I'd rather the first two years to teach me what I need to know to pass the boards. The other stuff I'd rather learn in my clinical years where I can learn the material with better context. (eg: learning nutrition during family practice rotation is useful). Further knowledge can be expanded once you get into your residency ( if that residency requires it..again no one goes to their pathologist to get dietary advice).

This is just my opinion of course. I just think that as pre-meds you really don't understand how mindcrushing the amount of material is. Sure, you know its alot because you hear it often, but when you're going through your first 2 years it's a far different experience.
 
This has irritated me for a long time, and I've been patiently waiting to hear someone bring it up on this forum (it's discussed very briefly on the allo side), but it seems I'm the only one this blatantly concerns. Does it not bother anyone that despite the "preventative" philosophy of DO programs (okay, I'm not trying to get into a DO's-do-not-practice-prevention debate - let's assume it's true) that nutrition is barely covered in the curriculum? Maybe it is more at some schools than others, but I feel there should be significantly more training in this area - it's a HUGE part of health and provides the vast majority of prevention. I realize I'm biased as a dietitian and someone who did many years of nutrition research and graduate work, but I do firmly believe in its relevance. Besides, many physicians (DO's and MD's) discuss dietary habits with their patients (from a certain point of view, this is almost malpractice/practicing without a license considering the education given on this topic!!)! I feel this is an embarrassingly overlooked area of medical education and should be changed immediately.

Thoughts?
Solutions?
Corrections?

Are you serious with this post? No, really?

First of all, nutrition is indeed covered in medical school...at least where I went to medical school.

Secondly, nutrition is FAR from the most important thing that you will need to learn in 4 years of school. One or two lectures AT MOST are adequate to learn what you need to learn.

Besides that, during your surgical clerkship you should be exposed to patients in parenteral and tube feedings. During your medicine months you will deal with patients on cardiac, diabetic and renal diets. PLUS in the hospital the Dietician can offer MUCH more information about what is available at that particular institution in regards to nutritional assessment.

So before you start yammering on about how medical schools "lack" this type of education, maybe you should research what IS and what IS NOT taught...more than just looking at a curriculum online and seeing the absence of a "Fruits and Vegetables 101" course.

:rolleyes:

If you want to make an argument...why dont you stress that Dieticians (such as yourself) should all go to medical school...or at least learn the difference between COPD and CHF. This way I wouldnt have to make several phone calls per day to the dietary people to correct their mistakes with assuming what the patient has...and I wouldnt have to field pages from RDs who cant understand why I didnt take their recommendations.

Its a multidisciplinary world out there. If you think youre going to learn it all in one fell swoop you are sorely mistaken.
 
I have to agree that I wished there was more focus on nutrition in the medical school curriculum. One of the most exciting things to me about KCOM's curricula was their human nutrition course in the first year in addition to preventive medicine. They even made a comment about the class on my interview day saying that many schools had taken out their nutrition course but they had decided not to. I'm not sure how much nutrition is in KCUMB's curriculum but I'm sure that nutrition is somewhat more specialty dependant and can be picked up if necessary during residency. I do believe that physicians need to know more about this field and many, in my experience, lack even fundamental knowledge on nutrition and exercise as well and how it interplays with the endocrine system and hormones. The fact that most insurance companies won't even touch some issues like this makes the situation even worse and more necessary that doctors actually know what they are talking about when giving advice to patients.
 
JPH.... I hate to disagree with you, but I felt that the amt of education we got in M1-2 regarding practical and basic concepts in nutrition was almost non-existant. I'm not saying it should be a full course or anything...but besides maybe how many calories/gram are in fat, prot, cho or what marasmus and kwashwiokor are....we weren't taught jack $hit about nutrition. Yeah, we had Sesso's lecture on surgical nutrition/tpn/etc...but nothing as far as how to make basic dietary rec's to patients in a primary care setting. Glycemic index?, different types of fats?....concepts never mentioned...

I'm not saying that this stuff is hard (I was a nutrition major in college) and a quality lecture or 2 would have sufficed.....but what we got in this area was sorely lacking
 
It's pointless to give lecture after lecture on nutrition to medical students. We got one in caridiology and another in GI and that's more than enough. People know smoking is bad for them yet they do it anyway. People know fast food is bad for them, yet they do it anyway despite doctors advising against it. Hell, even I know McDonalds is bad for me and I still eat it. If a patient requires a complex dietary plan then we refer them to a dietician. Sorry, but my main priority right now is being able to match up a thousand different symptoms with a thousand different diagnoses - not how many calories of carbohydrates a 54 year old with DM2 should eat before he goes to bed. If you want to prevent heart disease, live longer, or lose weight then = stop smoking, avoid trans fats, limit saturated fats, eat 5 servings of fruits/vegetables per day, and try to engage in 30 mins of activity everyday. Everyone wants to try to make simple things so much more complicated than they really are, but I suppose that's how money is made.... by becoming an "expert" at something.
 
I'll admit nutrition has been rather lacking. We have a nutrition book....but haven't used it much. There is a section on nutrition in Robbin's Pathology, but we were actually allowed to skip that section for our exam if we wanted to. We have another GI block next semester but I doubt we'll even look at nutrition or prevention then.

We just don't look much at health promotion and disease prevention in the first two years. Why? My guess is because they aren't on COMLEX I for the most part. Part I has from 1 to 5% of the questions based on health promotion and disease prevention. Yet, COMLEX II and III have anywhere from 15 to 20% of the questions devoted to it. A lot of people seem to think that you learn everything in the first two years and then go hang out in the hospital doding H&Ps and scut for a while. Don't forget that you are expected to attend lectures, take exams, and learn quite a bit during the clinical years too. Nutrition might just be one of the things that you need to pick up then.
 
JPH.... I hate to disagree with you, but I felt that the amt of education we got in M1-2 regarding practical and basic concepts in nutrition was almost non-existant. I'm not saying it should be a full course or anything...but besides maybe how many calories/gram are in fat, prot, cho or what marasmus and kwashwiokor are....we weren't taught jack $hit about nutrition. Yeah, we had Sesso's lecture on surgical nutrition/tpn/etc...but nothing as far as how to make basic dietary rec's to patients in a primary care setting. Glycemic index?, different types of fats?....concepts never mentioned...

I'm not saying that this stuff is hard (I was a nutrition major in college) and a quality lecture or 2 would have sufficed.....but what we got in this area was sorely lacking

As I eluded to above, most of what you learn and NEED to know comes from calculating nutritional needs during clinical clerkships.

I dont know about you but I dont want to waste my time in a lecture that is NOT heavily tested on boards and is an "FYI" lecture. I would rather spend the hour studying or learning something of higher yield...and rely on my clinical preceptors to teach me.

Besides, 95% of what is important to learn in medical school comes from MS3 and MS4 anyway...the first 2 years are all about learning the vocabulary. When youre getting ready to graduate you will realize that during the 3 or 4 "top level" rotations you had you learned more than the other 3.5 years combined.

Then you become an intern and forget it all...and start all over.
 
This has irritated me for a long time, and I've been patiently waiting to hear someone bring it up on this forum (it's discussed very briefly on the allo side), but it seems I'm the only one this blatantly concerns. Does it not bother anyone that despite the "preventative" philosophy of DO programs (okay, I'm not trying to get into a DO's-do-not-practice-prevention debate - let's assume it's true) that nutrition is barely covered in the curriculum? Maybe it is more at some schools than others, but I feel there should be significantly more training in this area - it's a HUGE part of health and provides the vast majority of prevention. I realize I'm biased as a dietitian and someone who did many years of nutrition research and graduate work, but I do firmly believe in its relevance. Besides, many physicians (DO's and MD's) discuss dietary habits with their patients (from a certain point of view, this is almost malpractice/practicing without a license considering the education given on this topic!!)! I feel this is an embarrassingly overlooked area of medical education and should be changed immediately.

Thoughts?
Solutions?
Corrections?

There are certainly dietary treatments for diseases: Diabetes, chronic kidney disease, cardiovascular disease,etc...these are well covered.

You seem to be referring to this nebulous notion that poor nutrition is the root of all disease, and otherwise healthy people should be micro-managing their every calorie to fit the latest fad being pushed by nutrition demagogues, fads which change every 5-10 years or so. that is nonsense. Obviously things need moderation, caloric intake should not grossly exceed expenditure. Nothing more needs said for healthy persons.

We have already managed to successfully medicalize every aspect of peoples lives, to the point where "working nights" now has a DSM-IV classification ("Shift Work Sleep Disorder"). For Godsake, let people eat their lunches and dinners in peace.

There are plenty of more proven health interventions to focus on in otherwise healthy people than badgering them about how much bread they are eating.
 
I am most definitely not an expert on nutrition but would like to learn as much as I can in med school. I guess I don't really see nutrition as insignificant as over 2/3 of the American population has a weight problem and many normal weight or underweight people are malnourished as well. There are many problems with food distribution and getting proper nutrition that go much deeper than eating a certain number of fruits and vegetables a day, especially if those fruits and vegetables are loaded with pesticides and the soil they were grown in has been leached of any nutritional value to beigin with. Or meat that is so loaded with hormones that it begins to mess with children's endocrine systems or sexual development.

Right now, if you go to a physician with weight issues, you basically get the same response, "Eat less, you gluttonous pig". When I was 18, I went on birth control and started gaining weight uncontrolably although I had never had a weight problem before and got horrible acne on my face and forehead although I never had that issue before either. When I finally went to the doctor after ten months and 50 lbs of weight gain, the doctor actually photocopied the food pyramid, held it about 4 inches inches in front of my face, and said, "This is a food pyramid, learn how to read it." Needless to say, I went home crying, stopped birth control, and got pregnant about 2 months later. I said I would never try birth control again but about 5-6 years later after they came out with all the low hormone pills, I decided to test it one more time. After 2 months, I had gained 20 lbs and got the acne back that I hadn't seen since I had taken the pill before, went to doctor again and was told that it was impossible for the birth control to cause weight gain or the acne for that matter. It was all in my head. Whatever.

Then if you go in and try to tell them that you are trying to lose weight and that you are eating healthy and exercising literally hours a day, they won't believe you and will basically call you a liar. If you can convince them that you barely eat, they will say you have put yourself into starvation mode. No matter what you do or say, you can't win. They had no choice but to believe me that I exercised for literally hours a day bc my pulse and my blood pressure was so low and I was so muscular otherwise they would have easily called me liar about that too. So after multiple doctors visits like this, I was finally diagnosed with PCOS but the reason, according to my endocrinologist, that I was showing no signs of insulin resistance was bc of the heavy amount of exercising and healthy eating which was kind of masking it. She also said that they are finding out now that there are just certain rare individuals who can't physiologically handle the birth control which may set off PCOS which is what she thinks happened to me.

Anyway, there were still certain aspects that were baffling me including incredibly low levels of triglycerides, low insulin, low blood glucose, and very low cholesterol. A registered dietician took one look at my numbers and told me my total cholesterol was far, far too low and that I needed to bring up my cholesterol which is, obviously, a precursor to all of my other hormones. She showed me several research papers which demonstrated adverse effects in people whose cholesterol was way higher than mine. Can anyone tell me why my numbers had to pass through so many different physicians before a dietician finally pointed out something which now seems so obvious? I am now working on bringing up my cholesterol and just eating whole, unprocessed foods only. I spent my entire life on low/no fat diets and they are a scam! Physicians, especially OBGYNs and FPs need to know about nutrition and diet. It's a lot better than their current mode of operation whichis to call the patient a liar and a pig!
 
There are certainly dietary treatments for diseases: Diabetes, chronic kidney disease, cardiovascular disease,etc...these are well covered.

You seem to be referring to this nebulous notion that poor nutrition is the root of all disease, and otherwise healthy people should be micro-managing their every calorie to fit the latest fad being pushed by nutrition demagogues, fads which change every 5-10 years or so. that is nonsense. Obviously things need moderation, caloric intake should not grossly exceed expenditure. Nothing more needs said for healthy persons.

We have already managed to successfully medicalize every aspect of peoples lives, to the point where "working nights" now has a DSM-IV classification ("Shift Work Sleep Disorder"). For Godsake, let people eat their lunches and dinners in peace.

There are plenty of more proven health interventions to focus on in otherwise healthy people than badgering them about how much bread they are eating.

No, I don't believe nutrition is the root of all disease - but I do believe it's the root of many (if not most) diseases. To ignorantly claim that simply not overeating is the only nutrition advice a healthy person needs is embarrassingly oversimplistic. The problem is, changing eating habits takes major lifestyle changes that most people (which sounds like includes you) don't want to/can't manage. I'm sorry you don't "buy into" the vast amount of established scientific principles related to nutrition that have been very successfully used to maintain the health of both ill and well people. I'm afraid that waiting for something to break before doing anything about it is taking pretty major leaps backwards in health promotion. Sounds like you've got a lot to learn about nutrition and its importance.
 
It looks like your previous doctors would have benefited more from a sensitivity class rather than a nutrition one.
I am most definitely not an expert on nutrition but would like to learn as much as I can in med school. I guess I don't really see nutrition as insignificant as over 2/3 of the American population has a weight problem and many normal weight or underweight people are malnourished as well. There are many problems with food distribution and getting proper nutrition that go much deeper than eating a certain number of fruits and vegetables a day, especially if those fruits and vegetables are loaded with pesticides and the soil they were grown in has been leached of any nutritional value to beigin with. Or meat that is so loaded with hormones that it begins to mess with children's endocrine systems or sexual development.

Right now, if you go to a physician with weight issues, you basically get the same response, "Eat less, you gluttonous pig". When I was 18, I went on birth control and started gaining weight uncontrolably although I had never had a weight problem before and got horrible acne on my face and forehead although I never had that issue before either. When I finally went to the doctor after ten months and 50 lbs of weight gain, the doctor actually photocopied the food pyramid, held it about 4 inches inches in front of my face, and said, "This is a food pyramid, learn how to read it." Needless to say, I went home crying, stopped birth control, and got pregnant about 2 months later. I said I would never try birth control again but about 5-6 years later after they came out with all the low hormone pills, I decided to test it one more time. After 2 months, I had gained 20 lbs and got the acne back that I hadn't seen since I had taken the pill before, went to doctor again and was told that it was impossible for the birth control to cause weight gain or the acne for that matter. It was all in my head. Whatever.

Then if you go in and try to tell them that you are trying to lose weight and that you are eating healthy and exercising literally hours a day, they won't believe you and will basically call you a liar. If you can convince them that you barely eat, they will say you have put yourself into starvation mode. No matter what you do or say, you can't win. They had no choice but to believe me that I exercised for literally hours a day bc my pulse and my blood pressure was so low and I was so muscular otherwise they would have easily called me liar about that too. So after multiple doctors visits like this, I was finally diagnosed with PCOS but the reason, according to my endocrinologist, that I was showing no signs of insulin resistance was bc of the heavy amount of exercising and healthy eating which was kind of masking it. She also said that they are finding out now that there are just certain rare individuals who can't physiologically handle the birth control which may set off PCOS which is what she thinks happened to me.

Anyway, there were still certain aspects that were baffling me including incredibly low levels of triglycerides, low insulin, low blood glucose, and very low cholesterol. A registered dietician took one look at my numbers and told me my total cholesterol was far, far too low and that I needed to bring up my cholesterol which is, obviously, a precursor to all of my other hormones. She showed me several research papers which demonstrated adverse effects in people whose cholesterol was way higher than mine. Can anyone tell me why my numbers had to pass through so many different physicians before a dietician finally pointed out something which now seems so obvious? I am now working on bringing up my cholesterol and just eating whole, unprocessed foods only. I spent my entire life on low/no fat diets and they are a scam! Physicians, especially OBGYNs and FPs need to know about nutrition and diet. It's a lot better than their current mode of operation whichis to call the patient a liar and a pig!
 
I am most definitely not an expert on nutrition but would like to learn as much as I can in med school. I guess I don't really see nutrition as insignificant as over 2/3 of the American population has a weight problem and many normal weight or underweight people are malnourished as well. There are many problems with food distribution and getting proper nutrition that go much deeper than eating a certain number of fruits and vegetables a day, especially if those fruits and vegetables are loaded with pesticides and the soil they were grown in has been leached of any nutritional value to beigin with. Or meat that is so loaded with hormones that it begins to mess with children's endocrine systems or sexual development.

Right now, if you go to a physician with weight issues, you basically get the same response, "Eat less, you gluttonous pig". When I was 18, I went on birth control and started gaining weight uncontrolably although I had never had a weight problem before and got horrible acne on my face and forehead although I never had that issue before either. When I finally went to the doctor after ten months and 50 lbs of weight gain, the doctor actually photocopied the food pyramid, held it about 4 inches inches in front of my face, and said, "This is a food pyramid, learn how to read it." Needless to say, I went home crying, stopped birth control, and got pregnant about 2 months later. I said I would never try birth control again but about 5-6 years later after they came out with all the low hormone pills, I decided to test it one more time. After 2 months, I had gained 20 lbs and got the acne back that I hadn't seen since I had taken the pill before, went to doctor again and was told that it was impossible for the birth control to cause weight gain or the acne for that matter. It was all in my head. Whatever.

Then if you go in and try to tell them that you are trying to lose weight and that you are eating healthy and exercising literally hours a day, they won't believe you and will basically call you a liar. If you can convince them that you barely eat, they will say you have put yourself into starvation mode. No matter what you do or say, you can't win. They had no choice but to believe me that I exercised for literally hours a day bc my pulse and my blood pressure was so low and I was so muscular otherwise they would have easily called me liar about that too. So after multiple doctors visits like this, I was finally diagnosed with PCOS but the reason, according to my endocrinologist, that I was showing no signs of insulin resistance was bc of the heavy amount of exercising and healthy eating which was kind of masking it. She also said that they are finding out now that there are just certain rare individuals who can't physiologically handle the birth control which may set off PCOS which is what she thinks happened to me.

Anyway, there were still certain aspects that were baffling me including incredibly low levels of triglycerides, low insulin, low blood glucose, and very low cholesterol. A registered dietician took one look at my numbers and told me my total cholesterol was far, far too low and that I needed to bring up my cholesterol which is, obviously, a precursor to all of my other hormones. She showed me several research papers which demonstrated adverse effects in people whose cholesterol was way higher than mine. Can anyone tell me why my numbers had to pass through so many different physicians before a dietician finally pointed out something which now seems so obvious? I am now working on bringing up my cholesterol and just eating whole, unprocessed foods only. I spent my entire life on low/no fat diets and they are a scam! Physicians, especially OBGYNs and FPs need to know about nutrition and diet. It's a lot better than their current mode of operation whichis to call the patient a liar and a pig!

I'm sorry to hear you had to experience what you did. Well, at least now through all this you know more of the facts and likely have a greater appreciation for what you've learned. Perhaps it will make you a more informed/well-rounded physican. Unfortunately, I hear stories like yours all too often from my own patients. It's clear that either physicians need to become more educated about nutrition or simply stop attempting to give their misinformed advice.

See, what we're experiencing here with the few dissenters is merely a lack of education of both the facts and importance of nutrition to health. It really doesn't shock me (I deal with it pretty regularly). What actually shocks me is how many of you understand where I'm coming from with my frustration.

Well, I'm glad things are better for you now...
 
I'm sorry to hear you had to experience what you did. Well, at least now through all this you know more of the facts and likely have a greater appreciation for what you've learned. Perhaps it will make you a more informed/well-rounded physican. Unfortunately, I hear stories like yours all too often from my own patients. It's clear that either physicians need to become more educated about nutrition or simply stop attempting to give their misinformed advice.

See, what we're experiencing here with the few dissenters is merely a lack of education of both the facts and importance of nutrition to health. It really doesn't shock me (I deal with it pretty regularly). What actually shocks me is how many of you understand where I'm coming from with my frustration.

Well, I'm glad things are better for you now...

Thanks and I agree with you completely. I like to tell myself that I went through all the **** I did during my teens and 20s for a reason. I guess it keeps me sane if anything.
 
So before you start yammering on about how medical schools "lack" this type of education, maybe you should research what IS and what IS NOT taught...more than just looking at a curriculum online and seeing the absence of a "Fruits and Vegetables 101" course.
JPH.... I hate to disagree with you, but I felt that the amt of education we got in M1-2 regarding practical and basic concepts in nutrition was almost non-existant. I'm not saying it should be a full course or anything...but besides maybe how many calories/gram are in fat, prot, cho or what marasmus and kwashwiokor are....we weren't taught jack $hit about nutrition. Yeah, we had Sesso's lecture on surgical nutrition/tpn/etc...but nothing as far as how to make basic dietary rec's to patients in a primary care setting. Glycemic index?, different types of fats?....concepts never mentioned...

Seems like even your classmates don't seem to agree about what's offered at your own school...
:rolleyes:

If you want to make an argument...why dont you stress that Dieticians (such as yourself) should all go to medical school...or at least learn the difference between COPD and CHF.

Hey, good idea! I think I'll go to medical school - you've inspired me to stop being a dumb dietitian! Thanks Dr.!
 
I think one of the great steps forward in modern medicine has been to understand that addiction - whether to drugs, alcohol or tobacco is a not simply a behavioral problem, but is also a medical problem. The willingness of physicians to accept that substance abuse is more than simply a "weak will" and to support and treat patients through multiple relapses and failed attempts at change has enabled many people to improve their lives and health in ways that they would have been unable to without medical support.

Unfortunately, this understanding seems to have stopped short of food and diet as legitimate and treatable medical issues. Diet is second only to smoking in terms of modifiable cancer risk and is estimated to account for 30% of all cancers. Since behavioral causes account for 40% of the deaths in America, and smoking is closely followed by diet and lack of physical activity as the main causal factors, it seems only logical that just as doctors counsel patients on quitting smoking and reducing alcohol consumption, they should also counsel them on the dangers of obesity and encourage a healthy diet.

08f2.jpeg


-Numbers of U.S. Deaths from Behavioral Causes, 2000.


NEJM, Sept 20, 2007. - "We Can Do Better — Improving the Health of the American People"
 
I spent my entire life on low/no fat diets and they are a scam!

Yes, they are a scam. Again, I go back to my original point that you have so many people trying to complicate a simple idea so they can call themselves an "expert" and make money. The most common cause of obesity in the US is an abundance of food and lack of exercise. Obviously there are other causes that should jump out at any competent physician (endocrine disorders, certain medications, etc...) But the bottom line is I don't need a dietician to tell me that my caloric intake has to be less than the calories I burn each day in order to lose weight. Sure there are all these different types of carbs and fibers that cancel each other out and all that other nonsense that these so-called experts claim. The idea is to eat a healthy diet, keeping in mind that too little or too much of anything will not be healthy AND EXERCISE. Of course you need SOME fats, of course you need SOME cholesterol, of course you need SOME sodium. The doctors who ignored you or didn't believe you are poor physicians, plain and simple. Making them take extra courses in 1st or 2nd year would not change that.
 
While I understand the importance of nutrition and diet, and I think doctors should do some counseling on it, I don't think it will do a whole lot of good for most patients. First, you don't really have the necessary time to spend talking to patients about diet. The average offfice visit now is something like 8 to 12 minutes. Unless you are are boutique doctor you'll go broke spending any more time than that. A referal to a dietician, however, might help quite quite a bit.

Second, most patients aren't going to follow your recommendations anyway. When you can't even get most of them to take a whole course of antibiotics, how are you going to get them to modify their lifestyle? If your patient has eaten fried chicken and mashed potatoes three times a week for 40 years...they aren't going to change. How many people have you known that suffered an MI and still smoke, drink, and eat the same way they always did? A whole lot, I think.

I think that a doctor has a responsibility to help his or her patients with counseling, but the root of the problem is much deeper. You won't solve the problem by giving doctors more nutrition classes. People have to learn this from a very early age or it won't work.
 
but we live in an information age thus people know that they are fat/obese and dont care. Either they think it wont happen to them or they just dont care. As a doctor, you could suggest for someone to lose weight just like stop smoking. But, how many of people will actually do it?

Medicine is one small part of it. The entire society's mentality has to change. And that takes something drastic for people to realize it. My best hope are cities that are making the necessary effort to do something about it.

I remember living in Austin and going to east austin (our ghetto) was there werent anything but fast food shops at every corner. Its cheap and if you are poor, it could feed stomachs on low budget.

I love all the talks about nutrition but it wont go anywhere unless person is going to make that mental change plus some help from government and involving politics.

I think we need a health superman.
 
Anyway, there were still certain aspects that were baffling me including incredibly low levels of triglycerides, low insulin, low blood glucose, and very low cholesterol.
PCOS should cause higher blood glucose, insulin, & cholesterol levels. And, you're obviously fertile too. :) How was your doc certain it was PCOS? Did she do an ultrasound?

You had these issues on the fad diets, or you have them now that you're on a more reasonable diet?
 
Seems like even your classmates don't seem to agree about what's offered at your own school...
:rolleyes:

Brilliant comment. Now, let me tell you why youre an idiot for saying it.

1. We are not classmates...I am several years ahead of T.

2. As I said above, if you took the time to read (even RDs can read)...you will see that most of the education as far as nutrition comes from the clinical years...something T has not completed yet.

So did we disagree? Of course. Based on my previous comment about where the education is in regards to the curriculum it would only stand to reason that we would have differing viewpoints because of the different experiences.

But, you knew that, didnt you? :rolleyes:

On a separate note, I love it how all of these premeds and medical students are so passionate about learning about nutrition.

Wait until your internship year...you wont give a rats ass about it. You think that the patients you see need a nutritional counselor? You think you have the TIME? :laugh:

You will do what all the rest of us do. Write an order for "Diabetes Education" or a "Nutrition Consult, RE: cardiac diet"

Keep the optimism but accept the reality. :thumbup:
 
but, I think it should be made more a priority. I think it will likely have to start with including it on the board exams, though.

Really the volume of information 1st and second year is pretty absurb so there are a ton of priorities in front of nutrition. More impt to know what causes of nephrotic syndrome, how to treat them and how to recognize it than whether Mr Johnson should get peas with corn or peas alone. If it has an impact on the disease we generally learn it throughout the 4 years.

Many (most?) schools have a decent background. Honestly I dont see the vast wealth of knowledge that you are talking about. The relevant material seems to me to be: Which macromolecules & vitamins should be in a normal diet, what an excess/lack of these do, which are integral to different disease states, special diets for various diseases and perhaps a few other selected topics. That "vast amount of established scientific knowledge" would fit into, at most, a day and a half of class.

Med school moves really fast.


This is just my opinion of course. I just think that as pre-meds you really don't understand how mindcrushing the amount of material is. Sure, you know its alot because you hear it often, but when you're going through your first 2 years it's a far different experience.

:thumbup:

For instance, for my last exam covered ~500 pages of syllabus (not to mention small group sessions, pathology images, and various review books). The course lasted only 2.5 weeks.

Also, I think nutrition is on the boards.
 
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