Which is worse? Poor me.

sgp · Jan 9, 2008

I have a totally screwed up situation here. I just finished my first semester of a BSN program. Thinking of going back seriously brings me to tears. Like literally! I hate "nursing diagnosis" such as "knowledge deficit" or "risk of falls"! It makes me want to puke. So anyhow, my question is what is worse? Is it worse to look like a quitter and leave the BSN program or worse to look like I actually wanted to be a nurse and stay in for two more god awful years? I realize I am answering my own question with my obvious distaste for what I'm currently doing, but it's not that simple. I have two kids and wonder about how I'd pay the bills with a chem degree (my absolute passion) if I don't get in to med school.

Some back ground. I haven't had anything lower than an A in the past 2.5 full time years (including summers), except for my soul crushing A- that I got this past semester. I unfortunately have 3 fat Fs that I received from a JC when I was 17 and didn't realize that I needed to drop classes if I didn't go any longer. These totally ruin my GPA and injure my science GPA. I have only about a 3.4 because of these Fs (which werent even in transferable classes but I hear they count anyway??) and a 3.6 for BCMP (all As with one stupid F). I'd have an overall 3.68 without the Fs. Alas...

I'd love some insight. I'm thinking about sticking it out through second semester to see if my feelings change about nursing, but I think that's some major fooling myself going on there! I also don't want these subjective nursing tests to screw up my GPA anymore. I honestly thought there was going to be WAY more science and a lot less garbage....

Last question: How much human touch goes into reviewing applications? Will it be obvious that my grades totally rock ever since I went back to college as an adult? Will they see the low overall and not look any closer?

Danke!

McLovinMD · Jan 9, 2008

Did the "Chamberlain College of Nursing" Ad pop up in the top-right corner of the OP's post for anyone else...talk about irony :laugh:

OP, it's hard to speculate your chances of getting in to medical school without more specifics. Your upward trend in GPA will definitely be noticed and looked upon favorably, but I honestly have no ideas how much the F's will hurt you. What is your GPA (including the F's)? Have you taken the MCAT?

armybound · Jan 9, 2008

I didn't know changing majors was that big of a deal these days.

At the end of the day you want to do what makes you happy.

clab1707 · Jan 9, 2008

As for what you should do with your career path...I doubt my advice would be any good because I cannot relate to the financial burden of having children.

However, concerning your grades. Ad Com's most definitely recognize upward trends in grades. If you have pulled a 4.0 (minus the A-) for the past two years, they will look at that as an indicator of your potential as a doc. Your earlier bad grades can be looked over for the most part, and will likely only have to be confronted in an interview. "So what happened during those first few semesters at JC" sort-of-thing. Just explain what happened and how you've turned yourself around and you have no problem.

I don't know what your EC's, MCAT, or background story is, but your grades will not hold you back getting into medical school.

sgp · Jan 9, 2008

McLovinMD said:
Did the "Chamberlain College of Nursing" Ad pop up in the top-right corner of the OP's post for anyone else...talk about irony

OP, it's hard to speculate your chances of getting in to medical school without more specifics. Your upward trend in GPA will definitely be noticed and looked upon favorably, but I honestly have no ideas how much the F's will hurt you. What is your GPA (including the F's)? Have you taken the MCAT?

It's about 3.4. I hate even typing that. No MCAT, still have prerequisites. I'm confident that I can get excellent grades in the rest, just not in nursing classes. Nursing classes aren't hard one bit, but the tests are absurd! If someone in restraints is restless, what do you do first? A) Give them a pillow or B) Use your therapeutic use of self? Ha ha. I hate it!! I also seem to be losing respect for the whole idea the more exposed to nursing I am. Bad news.

Too funny about the ad!

Maxprime · Jan 9, 2008

Changing majors is not a big deal at all. It won't even be on your transcript - I would never lie, but if I would then I'd just tell them I took nursing classes to get patient contact or something like that.

Just make sure you stow your contempt for nursing before you hit the wards. 🙂

sgp · Jan 9, 2008

clab1707 said:
However, concerning your grades. Ad Com's most definitely recognize upward trends in grades. If you have pulled a 4.0 (minus the A-) for the past two years, they will look at that as an indicator of your potential as a doc. Your earlier bad grades can be looked over for the most part, and will likely only have to be confronted in an interview. "So what happened during those first few semesters at JC" sort-of-thing. Just explain what happened and how you've turned yourself around and you have no problem.

I don't know what your EC's, MCAT, or background story is, but your grades will not hold you back getting into medical school.

I could kiss you!! My biggest fear and just about only reason for even starting the BSN was that my local CA school (Davis) would screen me out based purely on the total GPA without even looking into it further. I'm also pretty stuck here in CA with shared custody. If folks will actually look past the total GPA and I get a chance for a secondary, interview, etc I know I can work it. And if at that point I didn't get in I'd know that I tried my best and it wasn't just my teenage mistakes that were my hindrance.

Thanks! That really helps.

Maxprime · Jan 9, 2008

Do Junior College credits even show up on AMCAS? Did you transfer them into your new school?

Jolie South · Jan 9, 2008

Maxprime said:
Do Junior College credits even show up on AMCAS? Did you transfer them into your new school?

Any class you have ever taken anywhere needs to be reported, even if not transferred.

And somehow, AMCAS has a way of knowing. 🙂

sgp · Jan 9, 2008

Maxprime said:
Do Junior College credits even show up on AMCAS? Did you transfer them into your new school?

They don't show up on my GPA at my university because they were not transferable courses but I've been told by members on here that every single class ever taken will count for AMCAS. Before hearing about that I was going to decline my BSN acceptance. I read it somewhere on their website too. Total bummer! And even if I wanted to be dishonest and not report from that school, I have other classes from there that I do need to use.... Sucks sucks sucks

littlealex · Jan 9, 2008

You can definitely pay your bills with a degree in Chemistry.

And your GPA is fine, apply if you want. You don't have to give up nursing yet, apply while in nursing school

ryandote · Jan 9, 2008

sgp · Jan 9, 2008

ryandote said:
I agree with the GPA trend statement. Was there a gap in time between your ill-fated JC grades and the beginning of your next school? I think a little time between the two school experiences helps even more.

If you have scored all A's for the last 2.5 years and you will continue that trend, I think you'd make a great applicant (given an acceptable MCAT).

Have you been taking a complete course load over the last 2.5 years?

Yes about the gap. I didn't go for about 5 years. I didnt graduate high school because I had to move out and support myself (really bad situation in my home) and I tried to go to college from 16-17 while working full time to pay my rent. Didn't go so well! Got married, had two kids, got separated, went back to school at 23. I'm almost 26 now. I had no clue it was in me to become so passionate about learning! I've been full time since returning as well.

I stumbled upon a post that mentioned something about being "disadvantaged". Does anyone know anything more about this or where I can find what that means exactly. I certainly am not going for pity points and would prefer that people don't actually know my story but hey, if it does apply to me and it helps.... Hadn't even heard of it until today.

sgp · Jan 9, 2008

ryandote said:
You definitely need to report JuCo credits (AMCAS WILL KNOW!), and you definitely can pay the bills as a chem major (ever think about ChemE? that'll pay even more bills!)

I think if I didn't get in I'd want to teach chem. I'll have to look into local wages. I'll check out what the chemE degree entails too. Sounds like a GPA challenge for sure!

Thanks for the idea.

PanicAttack · Jan 9, 2008

sgp said:
It's about 3.4. I hate even typing that.

If folks will actually look past the total GPA and I get a chance for a secondary, interview, etc I know I can work it.

I've gotten 2 interviews with a 3.4, and my BCPM is lower than yours. If the upward trend continues, I would think your situation is pretty decent in terms of your chances to interview. And IMO, you've had a lot of experiences that you can reflect on and tell adcoms a lot about yourself as a "whole person."

Disclaimer: I don't know all that much.

MattD · Jan 9, 2008

The F's probably won't hurt you that much, just keep making good grades and get the GPA as high as you can. One thing I'd consider, is if you're set on medical school regardless of your undergrad major, nursing may not be the best choice. I hear all the time that med schools don't like to take nurses, as they see it as robbing from a healthcare pool that already has a shortage. But then again, there are several ex-nurses in my class. So I don't know what's true, but it's worth considering.

Good luck!

HSTeacher2MD · Jan 9, 2008

sgp said:
I think if I didn't get in I'd want to teach chem. I'll have to look into local wages.

sgp,

My senior year of college I decided that medical school was "not for me" (I couldn't stomach the idea of going to school for four more years) and I entered an accelerated graduate program in Education. I have been a Chemistry teacher for the last six years, and I've loved the experience. So, if you want to (1) persue your dream of chemistry; (2) influence young minds; and (3) NOT make a lot of money - then teaching is the way to go.

However much I've loved teaching, I discovered that it's time for me to persue my dream of becoming a doctor. My stats are average-ish (3.35/34Q), so I know that my experience as a teacher made my application stand out--as many school favor non-traditional applicants in certain ways.

What am I trying to say? (1) if you hate Nursing, get out... as soon as you can; (2) don't worry about your past grades... talk about them as a learning experience of what you definitely will not do; (3) if you're really passionate about Chemistry, are you sure that medicine will be right for you, or is there another career out there that might be better? Make sure you explore your interests in this field before diving headfirst into the horrors of the process. It's NEVER too late to make a career change.

GOOD LUCK -- finding out what you want to do in life can be exciting (and gut-wrenchingly frustrating, but let's focus on the positive) 🙂

notdeadyet · Jan 10, 2008

sgp said:
I'm also pretty stuck here in CA with shared custody.

This will be a bigger hurdle than your GPA. You're limiting yourself to a very small pool of medical schools that are all pretty competitive to get in to. Keeping an open mind about osteopathic medicine is always a good idea for folks who have to stay in state.

sgp · Jan 10, 2008

HSTeacher2MD said:
sgp,

My senior year of college I decided that medical school was "not for me" (I couldn't stomach the idea of going to school for four more years) and I entered an accelerated graduate program in Education. I have been a Chemistry teacher for the last six years, and I've loved the experience. So, if you want to (1) persue your dream of chemistry; (2) influence young minds; and (3) NOT make a lot of money - then teaching is the way to go.

However much I've loved teaching, I discovered that it's time for me to persue my dream of becoming a doctor. My stats are average-ish (3.35/34Q), so I know that my experience as a teacher made my application stand out--as many school favor non-traditional applicants in certain ways.

What am I trying to say? (1) if you hate Nursing, get out... as soon as you can; (2) don't worry about your past grades... talk about them as a learning experience of what you definitely will not do; (3) if you're really passionate about Chemistry, are you sure that medicine will be right for you, or is there another career out there that might be better? Make sure you explore your interests in this field before diving headfirst into the horrors of the process. It's NEVER too late to make a career change.

GOOD LUCK -- finding out what you want to do in life can be exciting (and gut-wrenchingly frustrating, but let's focus on the positive) 🙂

I really appreciate your post! I found some salary info for the JC near me. They start at about 54k for the school year. That's way low compared to nursing (starts at ~77k in my area) but as far as fall backs go (if I don't get in to Davis) I'd rather have less money and teach, than be a nurse. I could make extra over the summers too. I keep going back and forth and back and forth. The truth is, there is no reason for me to continue this BSN program other than it's safe and I don't want to feel like a quitter. Oh and I'm class president and that's totally fun! I'd work on a PhD while teaching at the JC and then move on to a university, unless I just totally loved what I was doing. I'm such a day dreamer, and a nerdy one at that!

What level did you teach?

sgp · Jan 10, 2008

notdeadyet said:
This will be a bigger hurdle than your GPA. You're limiting yourself to a very small pool of medical schools that are all pretty competitive to get in to.

Tell me about it! Why do you think I decided to start the BSN program. Would it be so bad to keep improving and applying? I mean, switch to chem, and keep increasing my education and ECs. My numbers can only go up with the more classes I take!

HSTeacher2MD · Jan 10, 2008

sgp said:
What level did you teach?

I taught high school Biology and Chemistry. With that, I get the joy of dealing with parents (some good, but also some really horrible experiences here), LOTS of grading, prep time in setting up labs, etc. and chaperoning (I got to go to Prom all over again...) BUT also interacting with some pretty awesome kids (so that's why I'm possibly thinking about pediatrics.)

I think an ideal teaching job for me would be at the college/university level. But you do need a PhD for that. And don't be overly titillated by the "summer vacation". Teachers earn it - we do 12 months of work in 10.

Feel free to ask me any more questions you have on this front.

Instatewaiter · Jan 10, 2008

Jolie South said:
Any class you have ever taken anywhere needs to be reported, even if not transferred.

And somehow, AMCAS has a way of knowing. 🙂

Usually all previous credits will show up in your College transcript especially if you tried to get credit. If it is not on your transcript I cannot imagine how they would know unless AMCAS uses your SSN to scan all the colleges. I kinda doubt that though.

sgp said:
They don't show up on my GPA at my university because they were not transferable courses but I've been told by members on here that every single class ever taken will count for AMCAS. Before hearing about that I was going to decline my BSN acceptance. I read it somewhere on their website too. Total bummer! And even if I wanted to be dishonest and not report from that school, I have other classes from there that I do need to use.... Sucks sucks sucks

So you took those classes without graduating high school. You may be able to petition to have those included with high school since you technically weren't a graduate.

Directly from AMCAS: "AMCAS requires that official transcripts from all U.S. and Canadian post-secondary institutions are submitted, regardless of which school(s) accepted this credit. For example, if you take a summer course at a community college and transfers the work to your primary/home institution, AMCAS requires BOTH official transcripts; the one from the community college and the one from your regular year college, even if the community college course work also appears on your home institution transcript."

I may be interpreting wrong but since you didnt get credit for it, you might not have to report it.

sgp · Jan 10, 2008

Instatewaiter said:
So you took those classes without graduating high school. You may be able to petition to have those included with high school since you technically weren't a graduate.

Interesting idea! I did take the CHSPE (think those are the right letters) at 16, which is the test that's like the GED but for minors who want to leave high school early. Then I went to the JC. I'm thinking about trying to get them to make them "W"s since I honestly didn't know about dropping or anything. I was a fool! I'm going to practice making myself cry.

Viridae · Jan 10, 2008

Don't worry about the JC stuff, it's long ago enough to matter very little and your upward trend speaks volumes.

Do pursue other opportunities in your education that you realize will better suit your interests and aptitudes. (See how I phrased that?) Changing an undergrad major is not like quitting a PhD program. You looked into it, realized it was not for you, and decided to do something else -- nothing wrong with that. It has the potential to be spun into a great personal statement if you work it well (but you should be careful to not be overly negative, rather you should emphasize your personal qualities that are well-suited to medicine.)

Do realize (and it sounds like you do) that your geographic limitations are a bigger hurdle than anything else you have described. I would advise being proactive about this and building a relationship with the admissions office of the med school(s) that would be feasible for you to attend. Most med schools are happy to do a little pre-admissions counseling and you could get some advice on how to best make yourself competitive for them straight from the horse's mouth.

Good luck! :luck:

sgp · Jan 10, 2008

HSTeacher2MD said:
I taught high school Biology and Chemistry. With that, I get the joy of dealing with parents (some good, but also some really horrible experiences here), LOTS of grading, prep time in setting up labs, etc. and chaperoning (I got to go to Prom all over again...) BUT also interacting with some pretty awesome kids (so that's why I'm possibly thinking about pediatrics.)

I think an ideal teaching job for me would be at the college/university level. But you do need a PhD for that. And don't be overly titillated by the "summer vacation". Teachers earn it - we do 12 months of work in 10.

Feel free to ask me any more questions you have on this front.

How much time would you say you spent grading and setting up? I've been obsessively studying the course schedules at my school and it seems that most profs have about 20-27 hours of instruction/lab time/week.

The JC system around here only requires a MS but pays more for a PhD. I think quite a few people teach there with the MS then go on to higher paying university positions after they have completed the PhD.

Yeah, this is what I do when I'm supposed to be working on nursing assignments that are due after the break!

notdeadyet · Jan 10, 2008

Community college gigs are very sweet, but very hard to get. Lots of times instructors need to teach part-time for years before they can get on a tenure path. I taught college for five years and was still contract by the end. There are always fewer hours than folks needing more hours.

Prep time can be minimized once you've taught a class for several years and have your materials down. After that, it depends entirely on what you're teaching and how you teach it. If you use a lot of papers, it takes ages to grade. If you do lots of lab work, hopefully you have great TAs or else that is a major time suck as well.

Only go into teaching if you love teaching. It can be a hard job and it's hard to make a living. For the community college system, expect to either teach part-time on to of a day job or juggle multiple teaching gigs at several colleges before you get tapped for tenure. This will go on for years.

LizzyM · Jan 10, 2008

1) Get out of nursing immediately. The labs are a time sink and the hit on your gpa can be "costly". Furthermore, you have more explaining to do if you get an interview (why switch from nursing to medicine??).

2) Some schools will have someone eyeball every page of your file if you make a certain threshold or if your MCAT and gpa are discordant (one is impressively high and the other is below avg). You wont be the first person with a lousy CC experience followed by a stellar college career, and I don't expect it to be held against you.

3) "Disadvantaged" is a check box on the AMCAS application. It refers to age 0 to 18. If you check the box you get an additional section to complete that asks about whether your community was "underserved" (not having enough physicians), your annual household income when you were a minor, whether your household received government assistance (public housing, welfare, free school lunch, etc), if you worked before age 18 and if your wages went toward household expenses. There is also a free text section where you can elaborate on the situation. It helps to identify applicants who had a difficult time leading up to college and puts the application in perspective.

HSTeacher2MD · Jan 10, 2008

notdeadyet said:
Community college gigs are very sweet, but very hard to get. Lots of times instructors need to teach part-time for years before they can get on a tenure path. I taught college for five years and was still contract by the end. There are always fewer hours than folks needing more hours.

Prep time can be minimized once you've taught a class for several years and have your materials down. After that, it depends entirely on what you're teaching and how you teach it. If you use a lot of papers, it takes ages to grade. If you do lots of lab work, hopefully you have great TAs or else that is a major time suck as well.

Only go into teaching if you love teaching. It can be a hard job and it's hard to make a living. For the community college system, expect to either teach part-time on to of a day job or juggle multiple teaching gigs at several colleges before you get tapped for tenure. This will go on for years.

I second everything stated here. My first year teaching was HELL. Get up at 5am, drive to work, teach, leave work around 5-6pm, go home and grade papers and/or prepare a lesson or two for the next day, go to bed, and wake up and do it all over again.

Now, after 6 years, things are VASTLY different. I earned it, but the work and the system burned me out. Only pursue this route if you're serious, and you think you will love it. Just like it's recommended you shadow a physician to see if medicine is right for you, try shadowing a teacher to see the same thing.

Have you thought about Teach for America? Although I have some issues with the philosophy and logistics of this program, it would provide some real-world experience, looks great on applications and (most importantly) is life-changing to boot.

biogirl215 · Jan 10, 2008

OP: Have you looked into the possibility of working in a lab with a BS in chem? The pay might be bit low for you, but I'm not sure.

Good luck! :luck:

sgp · Jan 10, 2008

LizzyM said:
1) Get out of nursing immediately. The labs are a time sink and the hit on your gpa can be "costly". Furthermore, you have more explaining to do if you get an interview (why switch from nursing to medicine??).

Unfortunately I can't change my schedule for next semester. I could drop the nursing and keep my chem and math but then I wouldnt have enough units for financial aid. I hope two semesters of nursing doesn't look all that worse than 1.

LizzyM said:
2) Some schools will have someone eyeball every page of your file if you make a certain threshold or if your MCAT and gpa are discordant (one is impressively high and the other is below avg). You wont be the first person with a lousy CC experience followed by a stellar college career, and I don't expect it to be held against you.

When you say some schools will, what does that imply about the others? Is there a large chance of getting thrown out without anyone seeing anything other than the numbers? I expect my gpa and MCAT will be discordant. Heck, my BCMP and total gpa are discordant! Seems like most people have a higher total and lower BCMP, unlike what I have.

Thanks for your help. The more info I add into my "risk assessment" the better!

LizzyM · Jan 10, 2008

sgp said:
When you say some schools will, what does that imply about the others? Is there a large chance of getting thrown out without anyone seeing anything other than the numbers?

It is possible that some schools screen "hard" and will not even send a secondary unless you have "the numbers". Others expect applicants to "self-screen" and apply if they think that their stats are competitive for that school. Schools won't give a lot of time to applications that appear well below that school's avg (let's say a gpa >0.8 below the school avg plus an MCAT >8 below avg - maybe the screen out is higher or lower but you get my drift).

When you are 18 months away from your intended med school start date, buy a copy of the MSAR (there's a new edition every year so wait until you're ready). Pour over it and select the schools where your MCAT and gpa are close to your stats. (Search on the phrase "LizzyM score" to learn more about how to size up your chances.)

notdeadyet · Jan 11, 2008

sgp said:
When you say some schools will, what does that imply about the others? [/COLOR]

She's probably saying "some schools" because it's very hard to make sweeping generalizations that will apply to all schools.

Relax. Change your plans, change your course, work hard, excel and you'll find a home. It's a long, long road, so don't get too stressed out at this point. You've barely just begun.

njbmd · Jan 11, 2008

sgp said:
I have a totally screwed up situation here. I just finished my first semester of a BSN program. Thinking of going back seriously brings me to tears. Like literally! I hate "nursing diagnosis" such as "knowledge deficit" or "risk of falls"! It makes me want to puke. So anyhow, my question is what is worse? Is it worse to look like a quitter and leave the BSN program or worse to look like I actually wanted to be a nurse and stay in for two more god awful years? I realize I am answering my own question with my obvious distaste for what I'm currently doing, but it's not that simple. I have two kids and wonder about how I'd pay the bills with a chem degree (my absolute passion) if I don't get in to med school.

Some back ground. I haven't had anything lower than an A in the past 2.5 full time years (including summers), except for my soul crushing A- that I got this past semester. I unfortunately have 3 fat Fs that I received from a JC when I was 17 and didn't realize that I needed to drop classes if I didn't go any longer. These totally ruin my GPA and injure my science GPA. I have only about a 3.4 because of these Fs (which werent even in transferable classes but I hear they count anyway??) and a 3.6 for BCMP (all As with one stupid F). I'd have an overall 3.68 without the Fs. Alas...

I'd love some insight. I'm thinking about sticking it out through second semester to see if my feelings change about nursing, but I think that's some major fooling myself going on there! I also don't want these subjective nursing tests to screw up my GPA anymore. I honestly thought there was going to be WAY more science and a lot less garbage....

Last question: How much human touch goes into reviewing applications? Will it be obvious that my grades totally rock ever since I went back to college as an adult? Will they see the low overall and not look any closer?

Danke!

If nursing is not for you, then finish the semester and don't take any more classes. Nursing, while a great profession, is not for everyone and there is nothing wrong with leaving something that just isn't a good fit provided you complete the courses that you have started.

Medical schools will see every course that you have taken since high school. We do take into consideration that people often have poor grades early on for many reasons - such as the one that you have stated - and we do take recent excellent performance (and maturity) into consideration.

That being said, if your uGPA total is lower than the screen numbers (some schools have minimum uGPAs) then you would be at a disadvantage. The schools that automatically screen are very few and most schools look at your entire undergraduate performance and won't automatically pass on GPA alone.

At my institutions, our staff reviewers go over the entire application and read every word. They have very specific criteria that we ask them to look for in the applications and they do an excellent job of pulling these out. After the initial screening, a member of the admissions committee reviews every application and makes recommendations for interview invitation. In short, every application gets at least 2 reads before the entire committee sees the application and makes a decision. I can't speak for all institutions but I am certain that this is the case for most medical school admissions offices.

sgp · Jan 11, 2008

njbmd said:
That being said, if your uGPA total is lower than the screen numbers (some schools have minimum uGPAs) then you would be at a disadvantage. The schools that automatically screen are very few and most schools look at your entire undergraduate performance and won't automatically pass on GPA alone.

Would this be advertised on their website or is it insider info?

njbmd said:
At my institutions, our staff reviewers go over the entire application and read every word. They have very specific criteria that we ask them to look for in the applications and they do an excellent job of pulling these out. After the initial screening, a member of the admissions committee reviews every application and makes recommendations for interview invitation. In short, every application gets at least 2 reads before the entire committee sees the application and makes a decision. I can't speak for all institutions but I am certain that this is the case for most medical school admissions offices.

Thank you for this info. It's reassuring to hear this from someone who actually knows the specific process. I've set up an advising meeting with my school of interest, for next month. I'm hoping they can give me more specific info about what they're really looking for there.

Well it sounds like I have a much better chance than I'd previously concluded. Now I need to do some research on how children react and feel about growing up with not that much money and a parent that is in school for their entire childhood! At least I'll have my parents to spoil them.

Which is worse? Poor me.

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