Am I crazy for picking USC over Michigan?

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Hysteria24

Hysteria24

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Forget about the SDN reputations of these schools for a sec, and hear me out.

I live in CA, would rather go to school in CA, and will eventually want to practice in southern CA. Everything about the campus and culture at USC fits me better than Michigan, and if PBL can work for any student, then I know it will work well with my personality. At USC I can take the regional boards out west, and have the alumni network to help start working in that area.

My reservations:
- The money of course ($130,000 more at USC after interest accrued during school).
- USC seems to still be working out the kinks (although improving which is a good sign), where Michigan is a more proven didactic curriculum, and many D4s finish clinical requirements well before the end of their forth year.
-Michigan may give me the edge to specialize, if I choose to later on.


Please no school bashing… Just looking to get your two cents, and to open up some dialogue to help me convince myself one way or the other…. So please chime in. :)
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Hysteria24 said:
Forget about the SDN reputations of these schools for a sec, and hear me out.

I live in CA, would rather go to school in CA, and will eventually want to practice in southern CA. Everything about the campus and culture at USC fits me better than Michigan, and if PBL can work for any student, then I know it will work well with my personality. At USC I can take the regional boards out west, and have the alumni network to help start working in that area.

My reservations:
- The money of course ($130,000 more at USC after interest accrued during school).
- USC seems to still be working out the kinks (although improving which is a good sign), where Michigan is a more proven didactic curriculum, and many D4s finish clinical requirements well before the end of their forth year.
-Michigan may give me the edge to specialize, if I choose to later on.


Please no school bashing… Just looking to get your two cents, and to open up some dialogue to help me convince myself one way or the other…. So please chime in. :)
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This is all that matters. Having $130000 will more than compensate for anything you'd gain from going to USC, and that doesn't include any of the senseless SDN bashing. You're talking about a good portion of the money it would cost to buy your own practice, a house, hell, Michigan is giving you a BOAT.

I'm telling you right now, it makes NO financial sense to go to USC for someone in your position, and if you can justify every single one of those $130000 you shouldn't be making the decision you're making.
 
an 18% on-time graduation rate would worry me.
More time = more loans
 
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I think $130,000 after interest accrued isn't a deal breaker. If you have a job set up after graduation or some kind of dental connection the money might not hurt too much.

Subjective example but my brother went to USC, is out a year and a half, had no dental connections and makes enough that many people on SDN wouldn't believe it no matter what kind of proof I scanned and posted. He moved out of so cal though to a mid sized city.
 
armorshell said:
This is all that matters. Having $130000 will more than compensate for anything you'd gain from going to USC, and that doesn't include any of the senseless SDN bashing. You're talking about a good portion of the money it would cost to buy your own practice, a house, hell, Michigan is giving you a BOAT.

I'm telling you right now, it makes NO financial sense to go to USC for someone in your position, and if you can justify every single one of those $130000 you shouldn't be making the decision you're making.
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Amen. If you took out that #130,000 in loans and went to Michigan and invested that money instead of paying USC, you would have close to one million dollars (with 8% return, which is very, very conservative). So are willing to give close to one million dollars to USC?
 
Your earning potential will be the same no matter where you go, so unless the climate difference/comfort factor is worth $130,000 plus interest I would choose Michigan. I would advise any student to 1) go to the school that is cheapest and 2) assume that you will owe more than you predict. Schools have a great habit of hiking your tuition every year.
 
In this case the money is more important. You have to consider the fact that a lot of ppl go for a 5th year at USC so that could potentially cost you even more. Michigan is the better decision.
 
Go where you think you'll be happiest - if location is your primary concern then go to USC. I'm sure you'll come across some classmates who got into USC and another school and chose SC over a different school.
 
I'd chosen Michigan if I was in your shoes. USC's dental school is bottom 5 IMO.
 
Yeah, if I were you I would definitely pick Michigan (based on what I've read about USC although I don't know much about Michigan). There are just too many cons going against USC (much higher tuition, absurdly low on-time graduation, PBL, below average board scores, too many students per class) to justify going there IMO. Of course, make the right decision for you and if living in SoCal makes you happy then do it.
 
Let me start by saying thanks for all the input. This is exactly the dialogue I was looking to start as I wrestle with this decision.

Yellow Snow said:
I think $130,000 after interest accrued isn't a deal breaker. If you have a job set up after graduation or some kind of dental connection the money might not hurt too much.
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UCDavisdude said:
yeah, the sc alumni really take care of ya. "trojan family" is what they call it, and they are sooo concentrated in southern cali. so if you wanna practice in socal, you made the proper choice.
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Honestly, this is a big pro for me. If I can go to school in an area where I am going to practice, that gives me 4 years to start working on plans for after graduation. My regional boards will already be completed, and the extra time may possibly make for an easier transition into life after graduation in that area. That proximity, and connections made while in school, may also help me be more selective with an associateship that will set up my dental career and future earning potential. That could also lessen the up front financial sacrifice.


Of course… I could be blowing that all out of proportion. If it were meaningless it would start shifting the balance of these two.
 
ptrianon said:
Your earning potential will be the same no matter where you go, so unless the climate difference/comfort factor is worth $130,000 plus interest I would choose Michigan. I would advise any student to 1) go to the school that is cheapest and 2) assume that you will owe more than you predict. Schools have a great habit of hiking your tuition every year.
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The difference is actually close to $100,000. The extra $30,000 come from more interest accruing at USC because of larger principle.

If every school hikes up tuition, then the difference between the two will stay relatively constant.

toofshucker said:
Amen. If you took out that #130,000 in loans and went to Michigan and invested that money instead of paying USC, you would have close to one million dollars (with 8% return, which is very, very conservative). So are willing to give close to one million dollars to USC?
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I like the theory behind this, but it is impossible in practice. Students can’t really take out loans that exceed $130,000 their cost of living during school. Also, 8% return is nice, but don’t forget that these would be all GradPlus loans @ 8.5%. If one had the cash sitting in his/her pocket, it would be feasible.
 
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DrSmiles12 said:
In this case the money is more important. You have to consider the fact that a lot of ppl go for a 5th year at USC so that could potentially cost you even more. Michigan is the better decision.
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I’m glad we don’t have any school bashing yet, and lets keep it that way.

I’ll just add that even with the 18% graduation rate, ~90% graduated by the end of that summer at a very low price tag, which basically equated to 3 months of living expenses. (minus of course the earning potential during those 3 months)
 
Here are a couple of reasons why you should pick Michigan:
-Great location: Ann Arbor is much better (and safer) than USC surrounding area.
-Higher chance to graduate on time and to specialize. You can't specialize if you cannot finish your clinical requirement on time.
-130,000 cheaper: you'll save approx. 1500-2000/month (depending on the interest rate) for the next 10 years.
-Lack of dental chairs and patients is a huge problem at USC….there is nothing USC can do (beside reducing the class size) to improve the situation.

Hysteria24 said:
At USC I can take the regional boards out west, and have the alumni network to help start working in that area.
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I know you are concerned about obtaining CA license after graduation. Don't worry! I heard that the WREB is not very difficult to pass. I know a lot of people, who failed the California board exam, applied for the WREB and passed it easily. My wife (who did both DDS and perio training at USC) thinks USC alumni network is worthless. There should be no problem finding good jobs in California.
 
charlestweed said:
I know you are concerned about obtaining CA license after graduation. Don’t worry! I heard that the WREB is not very difficult to pass.
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Anyone know if it is possible to take the WREB at a non WREB school while still in school? Michigan only offers the NERB, and I guess I will have to prepare for and pass that with the rest of my classmates. Could I knock them both off before graduation?
 
The whole job thing is where it gets a little hazy for us pre-dents to see. We become experts at getting from college to dental school, but still have a lot to learn about getting from dental school to the working world.

How do 4th years go about securing a job outside of school? Classifieds? School network? Luck?
 
Hysteria24 said:
Could I knock them both off before graduation?
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Oh, you have to graduate first. You should take the NERB with your classmates. You can use same patients (if they have more than one class II lesion) for WREB if they are willing to travel with you. It is difficult but not impossible to do both.

Maybe in 4 years when you graduate, California will accept the NERB. When I graduated from UCLA, CA only accepted CA board. A couple of years later, CA offered licenses by reciprocity. And now, it accepts the WREB. Don't worry! a lot of things will change. It would be a huge mistake if you don't pick Michigan.

Hysteria24 said:
How do 4th years go about securing a job outside of school? Classifieds? School network? Luck?
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Classified ad (OC register, LA times, , CDA journal, dental shopper magazine etc.).
 
I heard that USC was having trouble graduating students on time (or maybe the students were having trouble graduating on time). You might have to consider another semester worth of tuition in your 130k.
In my mind $130k is too much so yes you are crazy.
 
Hysteria24 said:
I like the theory behind this, but it is impossible in practice. Students can’t really take out loans that exceed $130,000 their cost of living during school. Also, 8% return is nice, but don’t forget that these would be all GradPlus loans @ 8.5%. If one had the cash sitting in his/her pocket, it would be feasible.
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You are right in the theory being wrong, but if you took the extra $800 a month (approx) that you will be paying to pay off that $130,000
and put it into your retirement, it would be well over $500,000 when you retired. So, are you willing to throw away half a million bucks to make a few connections that realistically won't help you that much when you get out?
 
toofshucker said:
You are right in the theory being wrong, but if you took the extra $800 a month (approx) that you will be paying to pay off that $130,000
and put it into your retirement, it would be well over $500,000 when you retired. So, are you willing to throw away half a million bucks to make a few connections that realistically won't help you that much when you get out?
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Good point... Makes easy financial sense this way.
 
From a different thread:

UCDavisdude said:
my sisters bf went to temple, came back, and had trouble finding positions in cities he wanted. he had to settle in fresno(eeeek!)
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This is what I don't want to happen. Is the $130,000 (or $500,000 retirement as noted above) worth spending 25+ years working in a place I am not happy in when trying to get back to Cali? Not so sure.

But for all I know, I could end up in the same hypothesized situation after graduating from a Cali school too (working where I'd rather not).
 
Hysteria24 said:
From a different thread:



This is what I don't want to happen. Is the $130,000 (or $500,000 retirement as noted above) worth spending 25+ years working in a place I am not happy in? Not so sure.
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I think you are way over-estimating the value of "connections." You can open/associate in an office anywhere if you are willing to do what it takes to be successful in that area. We don't know why they decided to settle on Fresno (I think). There are a lot of things that go into a successful office and not everybody is willing to do all those things for every area (like advertising, working nights/weekends, offering services others don't, etc). Sometimes it is "easier" to not work nights and weekends, not have to advertise, and take home more every year to live somewhere a little less desirable. It all comes down to what you are willing to do, not who you know. No matter how good your connections are, they aren't going to send you patients, and that is what you need to be successful. That will come from things you do.
 
How much do dental connections matter in practicing in an oversaturated city like LA? In my experience, the new grads get offered all of the worst jobs especially in a saturated market, and you have to just start working and keep looking for better opportunities. On Dentaltown I read periodically about new grads trying to establish their practices in LA and it's never an easy process. Save your money so that when you return to LA, at least you'll have a small financial edge over all of the other people looking for jobs with you.
 
i'd choose michigan.....130k is a lot of money....and usc is known for not graduating students on time....that is quite a negative in my view, if it is indeed true
 
Yellow Snow said:
I think $130,000 after interest accrued isn't a deal breaker. If you have a job set up after graduation or some kind of dental connection the money might not hurt too much.

Subjective example but my brother went to USC, is out a year and a half, had no dental connections and makes enough that many people on SDN wouldn't believe it no matter what kind of proof I scanned and posted. He moved out of so cal though to a mid sized city.
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I agree.
I'm from california too, and I'm going to NYU now. i would LOVE to stay in california... too bad I didn't realize this until AFTER i accepted new york's offer.
you'll be happier closer to home - i know i am.
 
kokobean said:
I agree.
I'm from california too, and I'm going to NYU now. i would LOVE to stay in california... too bad I didn't realize this until AFTER i accepted new york's offer.
you'll be happier closer to home - i know i am.
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I don't get this attitude at all. NOW, I am sure that your friend is doing quite well....I think we tend to get more of the docs here that don't do as well so I believe you when you say that your friend is doing fine. The part I completely disagree with is this:

You go to USC, and decide to pay that $130,000 off over 10 years. You are paying an extra $1600 a month in loans! That is half a house payment. Now, after the ten years, you have paid over $70,000 in INTEREST alone! That is crazy. If you take 15 years cause $1600 is a lot of money straight out of school, you pay $1280 a month and over $100,000 in interest. If you take 20 years that is $1100 a month and almost $150,000 in interest.

Do this. Go to Michigan, and if you still feel rich enough to throw away $70,000-150,000, go buy yourself a nice car to drive around in. At least that way you can enjoy your wasted money. :D

In other words:

GO TO MICHIGAN! USC IS NOT WORTH IT! (Especially if you have to pay for an extra semester because you didn't graduate on time....and right now, odds are you will.)
 
Yellow Snow said:
I think $130,000 after interest accrued isn't a deal breaker. If you have a job set up after graduation or some kind of dental connection the money might not hurt too much.
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$130,000 is a huuuge deal. I know it seems like monopoly money when you are a pre-dent but you really do have to pay it back. Let's see USC ... or Michigan and a loaded Porsche 911 Turbo? It's real money people.
 
This is very obvious, but if you THINK you'll learn more from PBL, then I think you made the right call.

But from suffering from PBL based physiology class in undergraduate, I HATE PBL, so I'd go against Case, indiana, Harvard, and USC teaching methods.

But it is totally up to you.

I once believed where you go for dental school will determine what kind of dentist you will be, but I came to realization that this idea is stupid..

I got into both Indiana and NYU, and it was an instant call to NYU for me, even though I had to second guess for nearly one month due to the tuition difference.

If it helps you at all, expensive tuition can be overwhelming, but 4-years of dentistry based on your own opinion has undoubtably bigger importance.

I hope this helped.

Thanks!
 
I think you made a right choice. I think it's very important where you live and if you have family/friends for support near by. I came to ASDOH over USC and Michigan for different reasons including my family. I'm happy with my choice b/c I have support from my family if I ever need it. Location is VERY important IMO. I have classmates that are unhappy b/c of the location so I think you made the right choice.
 
ok, I go to Michigan, so I'm a little biased here, but $130 K!!! and you still aren't sure, WTF!!! Granted its like 13 degrees out currently, but nearly EVERYONE finishes their clinicial requirements in the middle to late portion of their D4 year (if not earlier). It is RARE to have trouble getting a chair, outside a few days when the D2's are up in clinic. I've got a BUNCH of friends in my class (of 2009) from Cali with intentions on going back. You don't have to take the NERB and as someone already stated, by the time you're done CA will probably take the NERB anywho. All the dental students have a blast tailgating before football games, at random parties throughout the year, and Ann Arbor is a COLLEGE town = lots of nightlife.
Oh, another good point, how about that cost of living in SoCal?? Its gotta be twice as much as in Ann Arbor, you can add that to the $130,000. and I guess its only REALLY cold 4 months outta the year...

always GO BLUE!!!
 
Here's something else to think about, LOAN REPAYMENT, say I borrow $100,000 from the FEDERAL government at 6.8%, to repay that loan back in:
10 years = $1150/month total payment = 138 K
30 years = $652 total payment = 235 K

or I borrow $200,000 at 6.8%:
10 years = $2300/month total payment = 276K
30 years = $1303 total payment = 469K

That's a BIG F***ing difference and will definitely change how you live after school

Money matters...
 
p.s.s.
if you go to USC there's NO WAY that federal loans will suffice for tuition/cost of living so you'll have to take out PRIVATE loans, which often have a variable interest rate that depends on the LIBOR (look it up) + 4% or so. So you'll be averaging a MUCH higher interest rate that will be compounded CONTINUALLY and make a huge diffference...
 
pine88 said:
an 18% on-time graduation rate would worry me.
More time = more loans
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yep second that!

You're crazy unless you're married and your spouse is not gonna move
 
tissy said:
I think you made a right choice. I think it's very important where you live and if you have family/friends for support near by. I came to ASDOH over USC and Michigan for different reasons including my family. I'm happy with my choice b/c I have support from my family if I ever need it. Location is VERY important IMO. I have classmates that are unhappy b/c of the location so I think you made the right choice.
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I agree.

to the OP: I was in your exact same position 4 years ago. I chose USC over a couple other great schools. After 4 years, I am 100% sure I made the correct choice.

The difference in cost was about 75k for me, and I think it was well worth it considering my lifestyle, my clinical education, and the unique opportunities that were available to me.
 
just want to add that I predict a significant improvement in the on-time graduation issue this year. We'll have to wait till May to find out.
 
Thanks once again for all the input. Talking it out, and getting all of your opinions is helping me look at a few areas a bit more critically, and from different angles.

Just to clarify… The cost of living is greater in LA is greater than AA. Also, interest is accrued on loans while in school. I am well aware of these facts, and the 130,000 dollar figure I gave takes all of this into account. It is the difference in the total costs for all 4 years (roughly 100,000) with 30,000 of interest.

PlaqueAttack said:
p.s.s.
if you go to USC there's NO WAY that federal loans will suffice for tuition/cost of living so you'll have to take out PRIVATE loans, which often have a variable interest rate that depends on the LIBOR (look it up) + 4% or so.
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No private loans would be needed at USC. I would max out the Stafford loan amount each year @ 6.8%, and the rest will be covered by Grad PLUS @ 8.5%.
 
toofshucker said:
I think you are way over-estimating the value of "connections." You can open/associate in an office anywhere if you are willing to do what it takes to be successful in that area.
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Gryffindor said:
How much do dental connections matter in practicing in an oversaturated city like LA? In my experience, the new grads get offered all of the worst jobs especially in a saturated market, and you have to just start working and keep looking for better opportunities.
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It’s not the “connections” through the school that I’m so concerned about, but rather being around to evaluate opportunities in the area. If what is said above is true, that grads get offered poor jobs, then it seems like I could benefit by starting the job search early, putting my name out, networking, checking into many different opportunities, all in order to find the right situation and best opportunity for myself in that area. In a way it would be easiest to find the best of all the “worst jobs.” This would be easiest to do being right there, instead of three time zones away.

I’ll also add that I have relatives down there (one affiliated with another department at USC) who are good friends with a handful of established USC dentists. Some of these dentists may be older, and who knows, may eventually be looking for a way out. It are these inside tracks that could help, by getting in touch with them early, and following through on any leads they give.
 
Hysteria24 said:
It’s not the “connections” through the school that I’m so concerned about, but rather being around to evaluate opportunities in the area. If what is said above is true, that grads get offered poor jobs, then it seems like I could benefit by starting the job search early, putting my name out, networking, checking into many different opportunities, all in order to find the right situation and best opportunity for myself in that area. In a way it would be easiest to find the best of all the “worst jobs.” This would be easiest to do being right there, instead of three time zones away.
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Your best source of advice on this would be to talk to some recent grads of USC practicing GP in LA who are 1 - 5 years out of dental school. They could give you a better idea if being in the area is worth it by attending USC. All of the schools on the east coast have many California residents who all jump on the first flight back after graduation so I don't know that you'd have a huge edge over these people by already being in the area considering how saturated the market already is with the people already there. I have read that because of demand, practices for sale in LA have a lot of people interested in them and end up selling at full price. So even though you'd be in the area to evaluate the practice if you plan to buy right after graduation, you have less money to put toward buying it.
 
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