Question about Second Visits

tetris · Jan 31, 2008

I interviewed at an IM program and would like to go for a second visit. I'm very interested in the program and would like to meet the director again and show my interest.

The problem is I'm not sure they want me to come. When I called to ask about it, the coordinator said they're very busy with interviews (they've had more than they had expected) and that I should call again in 1 week. I did so, and again she said they're very busy, and added that they don't usually have applicants come for second visits. She also asked me why I want to come, to which I answered that I'm very interested in the program and would like to meet the director again. She said to call again in February.

So my question is: what should I do? I want to show them how interested I am and that I'll be ranking them highly (in fact, I plan to rank them #1). On the other hand, if I push too hard and they don't really want me to come, the visit will be awkward and it may actually hurt my chances.

Any advice or opinions please?

Proud 2 B A Doc · Jan 31, 2008

maybe you should tell her that you want see the hospital in an informal setting.. when i requested for a second look i told the program that i wanted to see how their hospital works on a daily basis. i wanted to see how a routine day of the residents go... they were pretty open to this...

but at another program i interviewed at, they said that if yu want a second look, they will arrange it in a way that the selection committee will not know about it, cuz it can put a candidate in an unfair advantage..

Maybe the program u are talkign believes the same thing...

Tone2002 · Jan 31, 2008

I don't know about that program. I find it hard to believe they can't accomodate you for a second look. I would definitely have my doubts about a program like that.

tetris · Jan 31, 2008

Tone2002 said:
I don't know about that program. I find it hard to believe they can't accomodate you for a second look. I would definitely have my doubts about a program like that.

They haven't refused; they'll do it if I insist. But then I'll feel like I'm imposing. I can understand them, since having me there for a day is a burden on them. They have to take time to meet me and assign a resident for me to tag along with all day or for a few hours.

Proud 2 B A Doc, that would be a good way to request it. Many programs are perfectly OK with 2nd looks and seem to expect it. But not all.

I really don't think I'll pursue it further. I don't want to be an uninvited guest.

Anka · Jan 31, 2008

Yeah. After all, they only want you to sign your life away, and here you are asking for a whole 'nuther day with them so you can figure out whether you'll be trained well and be happy for the next 3-7 years. I mean, they just want you to be on the wrong end of a pager every time one of their patients needs tylenol at three in the morning, and YOU, ungrateful wretch that you are, want them to hook you up with a resident you can follow around for a few hours. WHAT are you thinking?
🙄
Anka

Tone2002 · Jan 31, 2008

tetris said:
They haven't refused; they'll do it if I insist. But then I'll feel like I'm imposing. I can understand them, since having me there for a day is a burden on them. They have to take time to meet me and assign a resident for me to tag along with all day or for a few hours.

Proud 2 B A Doc, that would be a good way to request it. Many programs are perfectly OK with 2nd looks and seem to expect it. But not all.

I really don't think I'll pursue it further. I don't want to be an uninvited guest.

You really think its that hard to get someone for you to shadow? Think about it. 😕

Top Gun · Jan 31, 2008

tetris said:
They haven't refused; they'll do it if I insist. But then I'll feel like I'm imposing. I can understand them, since having me there for a day is a burden on them. They have to take time to meet me and assign a resident for me to tag along with all day or for a few hours.

Proud 2 B A Doc, that would be a good way to request it. Many programs are perfectly OK with 2nd looks and seem to expect it. But not all.

I really don't think I'll pursue it further. I don't want to be an uninvited guest.

Yes, I think this is the best policy. If you did go for a second look, even though they would probably try to accommodate you, they don't sound like they would be very welcoming. It does sound kind of odd that a residency program would ask you why you want to come back for a second look. Other residency programs would just take it as a sign of interest. But whatever. If you are still interested in the program, you can write a follow-up letter, if you haven't already done so, thanking them for interviewing you and informing them that you plan to rank them highly. That would be a polite way to let the program know of your interest, without imposing on them. If you have already written a thank-you letter, and you don't think they'd welcome you if you wanted to go for a second letter, then you've done all you can do to show your interest.

Top Gun · Jan 31, 2008

Oh, I mean second look, not second letter. Sorry for the typo.

tetris · Feb 2, 2008

Tone2002 - I agree that it's not hard, but maybe they just don't want to have anything to do with applicants in Feb. anymore.

Top Gun - I sent them a handwritten thank-you card the day after the interview, and 5 or 6 weeks later, I sent a follow-up email to reiterate my interest. I'll send 1 more email and probably will say I'm ranking them #1.

The hard part now is what to do about the Program Coordinator. If I call and say I've decided not to come, it might sound like I'm no longer very interested. What reason can I give?

If I don't call back at all, she probably won't notice, but there's a slight chance she'll be insulted, sort of.

I think the best thing for me to do is to call her and try to "test the waters". I can say: "From our last conversation, it seems like you're very busy and although I'd like to see it again, maybe a 2nd visit isn't necessary. But I do want you to know that I feel very positive about the program and hope to match there." Then she'll probably say: "yes, it's really not necessary..." ...or maybe she'll say: "oh, we're not too busy this month; you can come if you want."

I'll have to revise and practice my lines a few times; they're too wordy and awkward.

What do y'all think?

Proud 2 B A Doc · Feb 3, 2008

The PC told you to call in Febuary... Then just call her and see what she says... She might just directly ask when you want to come... or I would say just let her respond and then decide what you will say... dont prepare a speech or anything...

Top Gun · Feb 4, 2008

tetris said:
Top Gun - I sent them a handwritten thank-you card the day after the interview, and 5 or 6 weeks later, I sent a follow-up email to reiterate my interest. I'll send 1 more email and probably will say I'm ranking them #1.

I think you've done all you can to show your interest. You can, of course, try calling again in February and see if the program will accommodate you for a second look. If they won't, what can you do? Now the decision is in their hands.

forex · Feb 4, 2008

I have the similar question. If the program doesn't accomodate you (for whatever reason they provide), does it mean...am I out of their list? May be... right...?👎

Anka · Feb 4, 2008

forex said:
I have the similar question. If the program doesn't accomodate you (for whatever reason they provide), does it mean...am I out of their list? May be... right...?👎

More importantly, they should drop right to the bottom of yours!

tetris · Feb 5, 2008

Well I called her and this time she said: we're not offering 2nd visits. We've gotten several requests, but we're too busy.

Thanks for all the good advice everyone.

forex · Feb 7, 2008

tetris said:
Well I called her and this time she said: we're not offering 2nd visits. We've gotten several requests, but we're too busy.

Thanks for all the good advice everyone.

So do you still want to go to that program? In which state is that program?

Proud 2 B A Doc · Feb 8, 2008

I think you should wonder why they don't want you to come again... sounds fishy...
maybe they have something to hide??

Winged Scapula · Feb 8, 2008

Proud 2 B A Doc said:
I think you should wonder why they don't want you to come again... sounds fishy...
maybe they have something to hide??

I don't necessarily think so.

Even second visits require time and effort and coordination. For some programs this is more than they are able or willing to give, especially if there are multiple people who want to do second visits. I'd bet its more this rather than trying to hide something.

tetris · Feb 10, 2008

I agree with Dr. Cox completely.

Print1 · Nov 21, 2012

forex said:
I have the similar question. If the program doesn't accomodate you (for whatever reason they provide), does it mean...am I out of their list? May be... right...?👎

This happened to me too. I was told they only could accommodate a few second visits. The interview seemed to go really well though. Should I forget about this program?

twright · Nov 21, 2012

forex said:
I have the similar question. If the program doesn't accomodate you (for whatever reason they provide), does it mean...am I out of their list? May be... right...?👎

No, not right.
Second visits take time and energy. So it is understandable that a program would not want to host you for a second look.

pulsetone · Nov 21, 2012

It sounds like you're pretty set on wanting to go to this program and the second look is more to prove to them how interested you are. Unless you have something specific you want to learn about the program, I'd consider just dropping the issue.

NotAProgDirector · Nov 21, 2012

Print1 said:
This happened to me too. I was told they only could accommodate a few second visits. The interview seemed to go really well though. Should I forget about this program?

Just so we're all on the same page, this thread has been bumped from 2008, many of the OP's have clearly moved on...

To answer the question in general:

It's possible that a program won't allow you to come back for a second visit because they don't really want / like you. It's equally possible that they simply don't have the time/energy to do so. In fact, it's possible that they want to bring the marginal candidates back for second visits, to "check them out again", so perhaps a lack of an invite is actually a good thing.

Also, remember that second visits can easily get out of hand. Let's say you ask for a second visit, and we arrange one. Then, let's say that someone else from your school finds out, or you post it here on SDN. Now, that person will want a second visit, since they'll assume that it will help them get ranked higher. before you know it, everyone wants a second visit.

Last, you're assuming that a second visit actually will help you get ranked higher. That's not necessarily true. We've had applicants insist on second visits (we make it VERY clear that they will not move you up the rank list), perhaps for their own benefit (i.e. to decide between us and someone else), and I can tell you that we have definitely moved people down the rank list for their "performance" at their second visit.

Regarding "forgetting about the program", that depends on you. You can't be hurt by ranking the program #1 (or wherever) if you want to go there. If you don't match there, the match will simply try to put you into your #2 spot. If you feel that refusing to allow you to come for a second visit is somehow a mortal insult, or is a way to hide some catastrophic failure of the program, etc, and now you don't want to go there, then don't rank them. Else, do not fall into the trap of thinking that you are "wasting" your #1 rank on a program that might not be interested in you -- this is NOT the way the match works, and you'd be wasting nothing.

Print1 · Nov 22, 2012

aProgDirector said:
Just so we're all on the same page, this thread has been bumped from 2008, many of the OP's have clearly moved on...

To answer the question in general:

It's possible that a program won't allow you to come back for a second visit because they don't really want / like you. It's equally possible that they simply don't have the time/energy to do so. In fact, it's possible that they want to bring the marginal candidates back for second visits, to "check them out again", so perhaps a lack of an invite is actually a good thing.

Also, remember that second visits can easily get out of hand. Let's say you ask for a second visit, and we arrange one. Then, let's say that someone else from your school finds out, or you post it here on SDN. Now, that person will want a second visit, since they'll assume that it will help them get ranked higher. before you know it, everyone wants a second visit.

Last, you're assuming that a second visit actually will help you get ranked higher. That's not necessarily true. We've had applicants insist on second visits (we make it VERY clear that they will not move you up the rank list), perhaps for their own benefit (i.e. to decide between us and someone else), and I can tell you that we have definitely moved people down the rank list for their "performance" at their second visit.

Regarding "forgetting about the program", that depends on you. You can't be hurt by ranking the program #1 (or wherever) if you want to go there. If you don't match there, the match will simply try to put you into your #2 spot. If you feel that refusing to allow you to come for a second visit is somehow a mortal insult, or is a way to hide some catastrophic failure of the program, etc, and now you don't want to go there, then don't rank them. Else, do not fall into the trap of thinking that you are "wasting" your #1 rank on a program that might not be interested in you -- this is NOT the way the match works, and you'd be wasting nothing.

Yes, I'm sorry for the confusion. Thank you very much for your response, and have a happy Thanksgiving.

Question about Second Visits

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