Why do DOs typically prefer allo residencies?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
helpfuldoc2b

helpfuldoc2b

Membership Revoked
Removed
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2006
Messages
429
Reaction score
1
Members don't see this ad.
why do DOs typically go for MD residencies as a preference? Any benefit if a DO goes for a MD vs DO residency? Does this also mean that say a DO wants to go into ortho he/she has 2 chances to get an ortho residency, one MD and one DO?
 
Listen troll. Where are the numbers? I want to see you back up this statement that DO's prefer Allo residencies. You won't be able to because your statement is untrue. Most DO's in fact do not apply to allo residencies, thank you for trying, come back later.

Not only that but you have no clue about how the match works, you do not really have two choices.
 
helpfuldoc2b said:
why do DOs typically go for MD residencies as a preference?
Click to expand...

location, quality of program

helpfuldoc2b said:
Any benefit if a DO goes for a MD vs DO residency?
Click to expand...

this would depend on which programs you were comparing and your own personal preferences/goals

helpfuldoc2b said:
Does this also mean that say a DO wants to go into ortho he/she has 2 chances to get an ortho residency, one MD and one DO?
Click to expand...

you can apply to both but if you match into an osteo residency (osteo match occurs earlier in the yr than allo match), you will be dropped from the allo match process. If you have your heart set on matching into an allo program ONLY, then don't apply to the osteo match (for the more competitive allo specialties, you will want to make sure that you are very confident in your application if you choose to do this)
 
Animus said:
Listen troll. Where are the numbers? I want to see you back up this statement that DO's prefer Allo residencies. You won't be able to because your statement is untrue. Most DO's in fact do not apply to allo residencies, thank you for trying, come back later.

Not only that but you have no clue about how the match works, you do not really have two choices.
Click to expand...

Apparently you don't read your daily AOA updates. 38% of graduating DOs matched on monday and less then 50% took part. This was a valid question and appears more likely that you are trying to stir things up. Of those who didnt match many might have been following the practice of trying to match into a competitive residency by trying both the osteopathic and allopathic match.
 
Animus said:
Listen troll. Where are the numbers? I want to see you back up this statement that DO's prefer Allo residencies. You won't be able to because your statement is untrue. Most DO's in fact do not apply to allo residencies, thank you for trying, come back later.

Not only that but you have no clue about how the match works, you do not really have two choices.
Click to expand...

ha
 
Animus said:
Listen troll. Where are the numbers? I want to see you back up this statement that DO's prefer Allo residencies. You won't be able to because your statement is untrue. Most DO's in fact do not apply to allo residencies, thank you for trying, come back later.

Not only that but you have no clue about how the match works, you do not really have two choices.
Click to expand...

um what? can you explain YOUR logic about how we DONT have two choices?

i guess my dreams of becoming a medical examiner are dashed now... 👎
 
Animus said:
Listen troll. Where are the numbers? I want to see you back up this statement that DO's prefer Allo residencies. You won't be able to because your statement is untrue. Most DO's in fact do not apply to allo residencies, thank you for trying, come back later.

Not only that but you have no clue about how the match works, you do not really have two choices.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, but that's not true. The numbers vary from school to school, but about half forgo the DO match for the MD match. I was one of them.

And you do have a choice between the DO and MD match, so yes, there are two choices.
 
Animus said:
Listen troll. Where are the numbers? I want to see you back up this statement that DO's prefer Allo residencies. You won't be able to because your statement is untrue. Most DO's in fact do not apply to allo residencies, thank you for trying, come back later.

Not only that but you have no clue about how the match works, you do not really have two choices.
Click to expand...

I was simply asking a question I wanted to learn more about. What kind of ignorant, immature response is that. You got issues....
 
Animus said:
Listen troll. Where are the numbers? I want to see you back up this statement that DO's prefer Allo residencies. You won't be able to because your statement is untrue. Most DO's in fact do not apply to allo residencies, thank you for trying, come back later.

Not only that but you have no clue about how the match works, you do not really have two choices.
Click to expand...

Actually, there are many more DO grads in ACGME (allopathic) programs than in AOA (osteopathic) programs.

DO_residents_in_ACGME_total.jpg


BLUE is total DO graduates in ACGME programs.
RED is total DO graduates in AOA programs.

Sources:
1. US Graduate Medical Education, 2004-2005 Trends in Primary Care Specialties
Sarah E. Brotherton, PhD; Paul H. Rockey, MD, MPH; Sylvia I. Etzel
JAMA. 2005;294:1075-1082. PubMed ID 16145028
2. Stephen C. Shannon. ''The Impact of Osteopathic Medicine's Growth on Physician Workforce.'' AAMC.
3. Graduate Medical Education, 1997-1998
Marvin R. Dunn, MD; Rebecca S. Miller, MS; Thomas H. Richter, MA
JAMA. 1998;280:809-812. PubMed ID 9729993

The best part is, the AOA has already done a survey to find out WHY osteopathic students choose the allopathic route. Here's what the AOA found out:
the survey responses revealed that the overwhelming
perception among students is that allopathic residency
programs are of higher quality and offer better educational
opportunities than osteopathic residency programs.
Click to expand...

Here's a link to this survey, published in the Journal of American Osteopathic Association: (link)


bth
 
JonnyG said:
Apparently you don't read your daily AOA updates. 38% of graduating DOs matched on monday and less then 50% took part. This was a valid question and appears more likely that you are trying to stir things up. Of those who didnt match many might have been following the practice of trying to match into a competitive residency by trying both the osteopathic and allopathic match.
Click to expand...

I knew those numbers, less than 50%. Then not all DO's prefer Allo residencies, that is what the OP was suggesting and why I knew the OP had no idea what he/she was talking about. If all DO's prefered them wouldn't a vast majority at least try for the match? I would think so.

tkim said:
I'm sorry, but that's not true. The numbers vary from school to school, but about half forgo the DO match for the MD match. I was one of them.

And you do have a choice between the DO and MD match, so yes, there are two choices.
Click to expand...

My point was you cannot go through both matches at the same time and then choose. You are taking risks by trying for just MD, or if you match the DO match you have no choice as to going anything but Osteo. Or at least that is how I understood it.



Sorry as to the initial hostility, I am just too used to people coming in with blanket statements without having done any research or looking into the matter. Most of you had to admit the initial question seemed very questionable.
 
BTH, what article is the graph from? I cannot find it, prob in pub med and I cannot see the rest. I am not sure how that could be the case when less than half of all DO's have taken the USLME for the last decade or so, at least if I remember correctly.

Looking again I see the graph was in the presentation. That information is not exactly as you portray it, that graph is total number of osteopathic students in Allo programs. I am wondering if the number is so much larger than the Osteo one because of the length of the average residency in the Allo programs as compared to that of the average Osteo. You understand what I mean?

If the graph were of Osteo students ENTERING Allo programs each year then you would have me, but this is total students in programs.
 
Depends on what your'e trying for.

EG. Pathology...there are no DO residencies.
Ortho...your odds are INFINITELY better for DO residencies.

Also it's becuase people don't want to bother participating in both matches...the DO match is ~1 month prior to the MD match, so if you applied to both and matched DO, you get yanked from the allo match.
This issue has been discussed ad nauseum in previous threads, and is even an issue the collective student govt's took to the AOA, and the notion of a joint match (even if the ACGME approved) was shot down by the AOA.
 
Animus said:
BTH, what article is the graph from? I cannot find it, prob in pub med and I cannot see the rest. I am not sure how that could be the case when less than half of all DO's have taken the USLME for the last decade or so, at least if I remember correctly.
Click to expand...

This is easily explained. Many ACGME programs will accept your COMLEX score for the purpose of residency application.

Also I question this notion that a majority of osteopathic students do not take the USMLE. If you add together the number of students who take either USMLE Step 1 or Step 2 or Step 3, you'd have a majority. Some residency program director like to see that you've taken either Step 1 or 2, just to verify that you are on par with their other applicants, but they don't necessarily care that you've taken both.

Here's another source that discusses this issue, and demonstrates this was as true 10 years ago, as it is today.
Even as the specialty grows and opens up more schools, 65% of osteopaths still opt to finish their training in an allopathic residency program. That's despite the fact that there are 150 AOA-approved osteopathic training programs, enough to accommodate most osteopathic medical school graduates.
Click to expand...

Source: Wilson, JF. Osteopathic medicine's growing pains. November 1997 American College of Physicians Observer


Unless your statements are sourced, they don't hold much sway with me.

bth
 
bth7 said:
This is easily explained. Many ACGME programs will accept your COMLEX score for the purpose of residency application.

Also I question this notion that a majority of osteopathic students do not take the USMLE. If you add together the number of students who take either USMLE Step 1 or Step 2 or Step 3, you'd have a majority. Some residency program director like to see that you've taken either Step 1 or 2, just to verify that you are on par with their other applicants, but they don't necessarily care that you've taken both.

Here's another source that discusses this issue, and demonstrates this was as true 10 years ago, as it is today.


Source: Wilson, JF. Osteopathic medicine's growing pains. November 1997 American College of Physicians Observer


Unless your statements are sourced, they don't hold much sway with me.

bth
Click to expand...

Here is where I got the info, on the right you can click different years and see the numbers. You of course have to then look up the numbers of graduates from each year.

http://www.usmle.org/Scores_Transcripts/performance/2001.html


For numbers I could not find them all by year easily so I just found 2005 grads from this site http://www.jaoa.org/cgi/content/full/107/2/57#TBL1

In 2005 there were 2756 grads from DO schools. They would have taken Step I in 2003 and that year there were 988 takers. Even adding in Step 2 (346 takers) and Step 3 (76 takers). It still does not appear you have a majority.

Perhaps it can be explained by people not taking USMLE though, I do not know how many people are accepted to Allo programs without taking the USMLE. Also is it possible to take Step II USMLE w/o taking Step I? Do a significant number do that also? I was not aware a lot of people did that.
 
Animus said:
If the graph were of Osteo students ENTERING Allo programs each year then you would have me, but this is total students in programs.
Click to expand...

OK - we can do that particular statistic as well, if you prefer. The results will show the same fact. More DO graduates enter and complete their residency training in ACGME programs than AOA programs.

newdocs2004.PNG


Source:
Stephen C. Shannon, DO, MPH. President, American Association of Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine. The Impact of Osteopathic Medicine's Growth on Physician Workforce in the U.S.

My friend, at a certain point I think its appropriate to acknowledge that the OP was in fact correct. His statement is perfectly legit.

bth
 
Alright I will acknowledge I stand corrected. I did not know the numbers were so high and looking through other sources that graph appears to be pretty accurate.

Prior to this I had only seen the USMLE numbers and just figured there were not enough GME residencies that took the COMLEX to make such a big difference.
 
Animus said:
Alright I will acknowledge I stand corrected.
Click to expand...

Cool. Moving on . . .

Animus said:
I did not know the numbers were so high . . .
Click to expand...

Yeah, it IS surprising right? I was really surprised when I learned about this too. Not so widely known, and I wonder why people don't mention this more.

It seems like it has some very strong implications for the future of the profession, when a majority of the students go the allo route for residency. And the trend is towards increasing numbers in that direction. Thoughts?

bth
 
bth7 said:
...when a majority of the students go the allo route for residency. And the trend is towards increasing numbers in that direction. Thoughts?

bth
Click to expand...

While a lot of forth year students have the opinion that they will get better training in MD world, it is also important to realize that there are many more reasons for this choice. Nearly 40% are looking at geographic reasons. There is no DO residency where they want to be. 30% note family considerations. Another 30% note that the specialty training they want is not available in a DO residency.

The fact remains that more and more people are demanding non-primary care residencies and those just aren't available in DO world or there just aren't enough of them. When you talk to program directors around the country, they would really like to open more DO specialty residencies or fellowships but there is a stipulation that says you can't open a new one without an AOA board certfied specialist to head it. That means that an MD from Harvard is not good enough to start a DO cardiology fellowship. That's the true problem, IMO. If that rule was rescinded, then it would open the doors for lots of new specialty programs to open.

When you talk to most of my clasmates who are looking at ACGME programs, the main thing you here is that there isn't a DO program available where they want to practice as the biggest concern. I'm running into the same problem.
 
Animus said:
Alright I will acknowledge I stand corrected. I did not know the numbers were so high and looking through other sources that graph appears to be pretty accurate.

Prior to this I had only seen the USMLE numbers and just figured there were not enough GME residencies that took the COMLEX to make such a big difference.
Click to expand...

Dude, i asked a simple question and hear you are going out of context and making this into a statistic game, fine let me refine the question not like it matters. I really wanted to know exactly why DOs apply to MD residencies, is there more prestige, more opportunities, better experience, better teaching or what?

I still think you have some type of inferiority or some complex of some kind, to get all balled up in anger and take a simple question out of context and throw off the initial thread question...
 
helpfuldoc2b said:
Dude, i asked a simple question and hear you are going out of context and making this into a statistic game, fine let me refine the question not like it matters. I really wanted to know exactly why DOs apply to MD residencies, is there more prestige, more opportunities, better experience, better teaching or what?

I still think you have some type of inferiority or some complex of some kind, to get all balled up in anger and take a simple question out of context and throw off the initial thread question...
Click to expand...

He admitted he was mistaken.

Now, back to your original question:

Read what was published in a large survey of osteopathic medical students and osteopathic residency program directors on this topic:

Dually Accredited Family Practice Residencies: Wave of the Future
Richard R. Terry, DO (director in the Family Practice Residency Program and Osteopathic Medical Education, Wilson Memorial Hospital, Johnson City, New York.)
Journal American Osteopathic Assoc • Vol 103 • No 8 • August 2003
The survey responses revealed that the overwhelming
perception among students is that allopathic residency
programs are of higher quality and offer better educational
opportunities than osteopathic residency programs. In
addition, 79% of directors of osteopathic medical education
indicated that dual accreditation (AOA & ACGME) would enhance the competitiveness
of their program, and most reported that it would also
increase the overall quality and prestige of osteopathic residency
programs.
There are an insufficient number of AOA-approved family
practice residency positions available should all graduating
osteopathic medical students choose AOA-approved residencies.
In the past 5 years, many smaller osteopathic medical
hospitals have either closed or amalgamated with larger
allopathic medical institutions, resulting in further decline in
osteopathic residency training positions. This trend, combined
with the current increased number of osteopathic residency
medical school graduates, has created a shortfall of osteopathic
training positions and a geographic maldistribution of
existing positions.
According to John B.Crosby, JD, Executive Director of
the AOA, to the Council on Medical Education Testimony
regarding the financial situation of teaching hospitals, osteopathic
family practice residency programs are poorly funded,
compared with their allopathic counterparts, who receive
greater reimbursement for graduate medical education. This
funding inequity results from the previous model used for
osteopathic postgraduate residency training in family medicine,
which was based on a preceptorial, apprenticeship model. In
many cases the faculty volunteered their time without pay to
the residency program while trying to run a full-time practice.
All of these factors have served to undermine osteopathic
medical postgraduate residency training in family medicine,
reinforcing the perception among osteopathic medical school
students and residents that allopathic medical residency
training is superior to osteopathic medical residency training.
And student perception rapidly translates into reality when
choosing a residency.
Click to expand...

So to properly answer your question as to why the majority of osteopathic graduates choose ACGME residency programs, (in no particular order)
  • perception of more prestige at allopathic programs
  • perception of better training at allopathic programs
  • geographic maldistribution of osteopathic programs
  • allopathic programs better funded
  • allopathic programs have more full-time paid faculty
  • perception of overall superiority of allopathic programs

If you think this information is biased, consider that it is based on a survey of osteopathic medical students (not all medical students). This is what osteopathic students, of which I am one, have to say about their own AOA-accredited programs.

bth
 
Now here's my troll question:

How many DO's (percentage wise) actually practice the DO - taught manipulations?
 
Less than 100%
 
scpod said:
When you talk to program directors..., they would..like to open more DO specialty residencies or fellowships but there is a stipulation that says you can't open..one without an AOA board certfied specialist to head it. If that rule was rescinded, then it would open the doors for lots of new specialty programs to open.
Click to expand...

Hey scpod,
Is it that difficult to find a board certified DO specialist? I figured there would be a large "prestige factor" that would make it an attractive position. Maybe the work😛ay ratio makes it not so desirable?

I've read (on SDN, so its probably wrong) that the biggest hurdle was the lack of funding for new residency programs, DO & MD.

bth7 said:
[*]perception of better training at allopathic programs
[*]perception of overall superiority of allopathic programs
[/LIST]

This is what osteopathic students...have to say about their own AOA-accredited programs.
Click to expand...

How much of this can be objectively measured in any way? I'd be curious to hear a few things that MD residencies offer that the better DO residencies don't (excluding more favorable geography).
 
Playmakur42 said:
How much of this can be objectively measured in any way? I'd be curious to hear a few things that MD residencies offer that the better DO residencies don't (excluding more favorable geography).
Click to expand...

Well, of those in the list I gave, the one that can (and have) been objectively measured are:

  • Allopathic programs better funded
  • More paid, full time faculty at allopathic programs
  • Geographic maldistribution of osteopathic programs

While the subjectively measured ones are of course:
  • Perception of better training
  • Perception of more prestige
  • Perception of overall quality

If you read the article, you'll see that the three "objective" quantities are given by John B.Crosby, JD, Executive Director of the AOA (i.e. someone who probably knows what he's taking about.)

bth
 
Playmakur42 said:
Hey scpod,
Is it that difficult to find a board certified DO specialist? I figured there would be a large "prestige factor" that would make it an attractive position. Maybe the work😛ay ratio makes it not so desirable?
Click to expand...

I know of a couple of places that have IM residencies and want to add cardiology fellowships since they have heart centers at the hospital. Yet, they have been unable to attract a DO cardiologist to start it. You'd think it would be easier, but apparently not.

Playmakur42 said:
I've read (on SDN, so its probably wrong) that the biggest hurdle was the lack of funding for new residency programs, DO & MD.
Click to expand...

The cap doesn't apply to new programs in new places or programs in underserved areas. Existing programs cannot expand under the cap. The hospital has a set number and they can shuffle them around, but they can't open any new ones unless they get rid of old spots. It's a common misunderstanding.
 
helpfuldoc2b said:
Dude, i asked a simple question and hear you are going out of context and making this into a statistic game, fine let me refine the question not like it matters. I really wanted to know exactly why DOs apply to MD residencies, is there more prestige, more opportunities, better experience, better teaching or what?

I still think you have some type of inferiority or some complex of some kind, to get all balled up in anger and take a simple question out of context and throw off the initial thread question...
Click to expand...

A statistics game? I wanted you to back up the generalized statement you made. I am sorry if I do not believe every statement made on these boards straight up, if you stay here long enough you will understand why.

Questions like these get asked all the time and a majority are from people trying to push an agenda. You keep calling me angry yet you are the one that continues to make attacks.
 
Can you go into an allopathic fellowship upon completing an osteopathic residency, and if so, is it hard to do? Or, am I just reshaping the "Can a DO gain a competitive allo residency" argument into a new demon?
 
militarymd said:
Now here's my troll question:

How many DO's (percentage wise) actually practice the DO - taught manipulations?
Click to expand...

Am I the only one around here who knows how to use PubMEd?!
:meanie: Brief moment of frustration.:meanie:

OK, I feel much better now. To answer your question properly, someone tried to do some research on this as well, which was published in the peer-reviewed journal Academic Medicine.

"50% of the responding osteopathic physicians used OMT on less than 5% of their patients."

Johnson SM, Kurtz ME. Department of Family and Community Medicine, College of Osteopathic Medicine, Michigan State University. "Diminished use of osteopathic manipulative treatment and its impact on the uniqueness of the osteopathic profession." PubMed ID: 11500286

An interesting commentary on these results was published in the Journal of Amer Osteopathic Assoc.

Beyond OMT: Time for a New Chapter in Osteopathic Medicine?
GREG P. HANSEN, MS III
JAOA • Vol 106 • No 3 • March 2006 • 114-116

Oklahoma State University College of Osteopathic Medicine
In a 2001 survey of osteopathic physicians by Johnson et al, more than 50% of the respondents said they used OMT on less than 5% of their patients. The survey was the latest indication that osteopathic physicians have become more like allopathic physicians in all respects—fewer perform OMT, more prescribe drugs, and many perform surgery as a first option.

What has happened since the 1890s to make so many osteopathic physicians move so close to the allopathic medical system? Many osteopathic physicians are struggling for the answer to this question. Meanwhile, the leadership of the osteopathic medical profession has yet to clearly define the profession's uniqueness in modern medicine. A 2002 survey of osteopathic physicians by Johnson et al, found that "not a single philosophic concept or resultant practice behavior had concurrence from more than a third of the respondents as distinguishing osteopathic from allopathic medicine." Johnson et al, concluded that many osteopathic physicians, especially those who are recent graduates, no longer use OMT for a variety of reasons, including institutional barriers, negative professional attitudes, and lack of postgraduate training.
Click to expand...

bth

PS - Hey, if you want to know lots of objective, researched, published facts as well as some expert opinions on osteopathic medicine, I'd suggest reading some of the great articles in peer-reviewed journals that have been written on these topics. Here's one of the best lists of articles and opinions on these topic that you'll find, anywhere!
Osteopathic medicine reference list
 
helpfuldoc2b said:
I really wanted to know exactly why DOs apply to MD residencies, is there more prestige, more opportunities, better experience, better teaching or what?
Click to expand...

Another analysis related to the OP's question:

Cummings M. Michigan State University College of Osteopathic Medicine. The predicament of osteopathic postdoctoral education. Acad Med. 2006 Dec ;81 (12):1123-1127 PubMed ID 17122485
The growth of colleges of osteopathic medicine (COMs) during the past 20 years has been a catalyst for change and has created new challenges in osteopathic medicine. None of these challenges is more daunting than the task of sustaining an osteopathic graduate medical education (OGME) system that has suffered during this period of rapid development. Notable trends within the osteopathic medicine community since 1990 include allopathic residency programs obtaining OGME accreditation, COM graduates bypassing OGME, repeated major changes in American Osteopathic Association (AOA) accreditation policies, a growing dependence on Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education programs to train osteopathic graduates, and a lessening of options for the AOA to effectively direct its OGME system. The predicament is whether COMs can continue to grow without resulting in the demise of the OGME system and a loss of professional identity.
Click to expand...

bth
 
OK, if you thought the other posts were good, you're going to love this one. It's the best source on this topic I've found so far.

You ask osteopathic FRESHMAN and you get one answer (osteopathic is better.) But by the time they become SENIORS they've changes their tune.


Debt, Plans and Opinions of Osteopathic Medical Students in 2004
By Allen M. Singer, Ph.D. (Former) AACOM V.P. for Research & Information
Plans for Residency

The students' plans for residency present an interesting contrast between freshmen and seniors. For the past eight years, close to half of each freshmen class indicated that they planned to enter an osteopathic residency program after the internship (Fig. 10, 11B). But their plans apparently change when they become seniors. Only 30.7% of seniors in 2004 planned an osteopathic residency while the number planning an allopathic residency is approaching 50%. The explanation for this may be inferred from Table 16, which indicates that freshmen and seniors have widely different views of the quality of training provided in osteopathic and allopathic residencies. Only 12.5% of freshmen entering in 2003 thought that allopathic residencies offered better quality training, while more than 45% of seniors thought so. Geographic location, family considerations, and the desire for training not available in osteopathic residencies also accounted for much of the differences of opinion between freshmen and seniors concerning residency choice.
Click to expand...

Look at the difference in the plans of osteopathic SENIORS and FRESHMAN!

REASONS.PNG


What happens in those 4 years?

bth
 
JackDanielMD said:
Can you go into an allopathic fellowship upon completing an osteopathic residency, and if so, is it hard to do? Or, am I just reshaping the "Can a DO gain a competitive allo residency" argument into a new demon?
Click to expand...

You can do this, unless, of course you're in one of the "5 states" in which case you need at least 1 year of Osteopathic training (although i've been told that this can be accomplished by a bundle of paperwork). However, if you do an allopathic residency, i don't believe you can do an osteopathic fellowship. I don't remember the exact details, but these questions were brought up in an information session our class had with the deans about residency options. (Any current residents want to elaborate on this, or correct me if i'm wrong).

To give a personal reason to the OP's question... My future husband (will be before graduation) is on the Army HPSP scholarship, so I will be applying to ANY residency in the area where he will be (ok, any in the fields i am interested in, but i mean i don't care if it's allo or osteo). Military match is in early December, so they know before the osteo/allo match is due (hopefully!!)
 
The ACGME route for anesthesia is the "gold standard" because it leads to board certification by the American Board of Anesthesiology. DO anesthesia residencies are severely lacking in size and location.
 
bth7,

This is an interesting discussion. One thing that always boggles my mind is that coupled with the statistics you mention: Why do osteopathic schools expand without the expectation of developing residency training programs for their increasing number of graduates?

To my mind, hospital affiliations with well-organized rotations and clinical education including residency programs should come with opening doors to more medical school seats.

I am throwing my hat in the ring for osteopathic medical schools after some vacillating but this issue of 3rd and 4th year without the opportunity to mix it up with residency programs already has me thinking of follow up moves for making myself as competitive as possible for allopathic residency training as a potential osteopathic grad. Certainly, I cannot help thinking that I might limit my osteopathic applications to the more established schools.

Any thoughts?
 
schrute said:
Depends on what your'e trying for.

EG. Pathology...there are no DO residencies.
Ortho...your odds are INFINITELY better for DO residencies.

Also it's becuase people don't want to bother participating in both matches...the DO match is ~1 month prior to the MD match, so if you applied to both and matched DO, you get yanked from the allo match.
This issue has been discussed ad nauseum in previous threads, and is even an issue the collective student govt's took to the AOA, and the notion of a joint match (even if the ACGME approved) was shot down by the AOA.
Click to expand...

Why shot down? If it made it to the collective student govts, and since the AOA is there to represent the interests of its constituents...

I think a joint match is the way to go. Soon.
 
There are by far more Allopathic residencies than osteopathic residencies and Allopathic residencies have a much larger geographic spread. Just go with whichever one workes best for YOUR situation/goals.
 
Animus said:
Listen troll. Where are the numbers? I want to see you back up this statement that DO's prefer Allo residencies. You won't be able to because your statement is untrue. Most DO's in fact do not apply to allo residencies, thank you for trying, come back later.

Not only that but you have no clue about how the match works, you do not really have two choices.
Click to expand...

Gotta back up my homie here...

It's often also that FEAR drives DO applicants to only apply MD. Listen to this reasoning...

If someone applies osteo and matches, they HAVE to go. So if a person REALLY loves a DO residency (1st choice) but doesn't get it, they are "stuck" with one of their lower AOA choices which may be significantly further down on their list than an MD choice they want. Because they fear going to a program they don't want, they apply MD-only. So my argument is that there is an inherent bias of the numbers due to the system requiring you to withdraw from the MD match if you've matched in the DO match.

I have heard many accounts of this on SDN in passing over the last year.

Another take-home point is that this reflects how uneven and nonuniform the DO residencies are in terms of quality. While there are many excellent DO residencies, it is my understanding that there are definitely a few that do not have the patient breadth and caseload needed... whether the reason is institutional or location-based.
 
militarymd said:
Now here's my troll question:

How many DO's (percentage wise) actually practice the DO - taught manipulations?
Click to expand...

Not many (<10 percent of practicing physicians). I can tell you right now that I will NEVER utilize counterstrain or cranial manipulation. If I use any technique it will be something I can use in passing that is unobtrusive such as soft tissue or myofascial release.

We just learned counterstrain and I simply can't see a situation in which a patient comes into my office and I fold them into an odd position for 90-120 seconds. To me, that would be awkward at best...

That said, there are other intangibles of having frequent contact with other individuals in a therapeutic way throughout our medical education.

1. An early sense of therapeutic correction.
2. The ability to be comfortable with patient contact.
3. More attuned and sensitized palpatory skills.

Among others...

OK for the record, I am NOT anti-OMM. I just like some parts of it better than others and am still open for its use in my eventual practice. ::whew::
 
MaximusD said:
....I simply can't see a situation in which a patient comes into my office and I fold them into an odd position for 90-120 seconds....
Click to expand...


I would be unlikely to use counterstrain simply because of the time factor. ME and HVLA take so little time when you have tons of patients to see. However, one of my favorite professors lines is, "Never say never; never say always." If all else fails, I can see trying it. I've had it work on me, so I know it can be an effective modality. Yet, I'm not a fan of it by any means. I know that simple inhibition works on me in many cases too, but I don't see having the time for things like that unless my practice were more geared toward OMT.
 
MaximusD said:
Gotta back up my homie here...

It's often also that FEAR drives DO applicants to only apply MD. Listen to this reasoning...

If someone applies osteo and matches, they HAVE to go. So if a person REALLY loves a DO residency (1st choice) but doesn't get it, they are "stuck" with one of their lower AOA choices which may be significantly further down on their list than an MD choice they want.
Click to expand...

Having participated in the DO and MD matches, I'd like to point out the strategy that many DO applicants used.

I interviewed at one osteopathic program that, had the DO and MD matches been combined, would have easily been my #3 or #4.

Now, had that program been a #1 or close #2, then I would have only ranked that one program, and if I did not match, would continue on to the MD match.

There is no rule stating if you participate in the DO match, you must match DO. If I ranked only one place and did not match, I could scramble, or simply move onto the MD match.

Therefore, I avoid the situation you describe, as have many other people who have gone through the match.
 
tkim said:
Having participated in the DO and MD matches, I'd like to point out the strategy that many DO applicants used.

I interviewed at one osteopathic program that, had the DO and MD matches been combined, would have easily been my #3 or #4.

Now, had that program been a #1 or close #2, then I would have only ranked that one program, and if I did not match, would continue on to the MD match.

There is no rule stating if you participate in the DO match, you must match DO. If I ranked only one place and did not match, I could scramble, or simply move onto the MD match.

Therefore, I avoid the situation you describe, as have many other people who have gone through the match.
Click to expand...

I had thought this could be the case but I've read on here before examples of individuals using this claim as to why they didn't apply DO. I suppose I stand corrected then.
 
MaximusD said:
I had thought this could be the case but I've read on here before examples of individuals using this claim as to why they didn't apply DO. I suppose I stand corrected then.
Click to expand...

If you're not willing to believe me, just say so. I've been through the match. Have you?
 
tkim said:
If you're not willing to believe me, just say so. I've been through the match. Have you?
Click to expand...

lol maybe you misread my post. I totally submitted that I was incorrect. The language you are referring to is obviously backpedalling... are you getting a thrill out of calling me out when I was wrong? I admitted to it...damn.
 
Animus said:
Listen troll. Where are the numbers? I want to see you back up this statement that DO's prefer Allo residencies. You won't be able to because your statement is untrue. Most DO's in fact do not apply to allo residencies, thank you for trying, come back later.

Not only that but you have no clue about how the match works, you do not really have two choices.
Click to expand...

Where are the numbers? Hmmm? Lets think about this for a second...
http://www.natmatch.com/aoairp/index.htm
Look at the match stats for this year.
Only 51.5% of all D.O.'s actually participate in the D.O. match. What did the rest of them do? Allopathic spots.
You are obviously the one who has not done their research.
I don't know what you mean by calling someone a troll, but if it means they are a ***** than I guess that means you qualify as a troll. A big troll!
 
Animus said:
I am not sure how that could be the case when less than half of all DO's have taken the USLME for the last decade or so, at least if I remember correctly.
Click to expand...

Another case in point showing that you are the one who actually needs to learn something here. A D.O. doesn't need to take the USMLE to participate in the allopathic match/residencies. There are tons of allopathic residencies that are perfectly fine with accepting comlex scores. I never took the USMLE and I'm starting an allopathic IM residency this summer. And I got interviews from every single allopathic IM program I applied to, none of them asked me about USMLE scores.
Sure the super competitive ones are going to want to see those scores, but thats certainly not the norm.
 
helpfuldoc2b said:
Dude, i asked a simple question and hear you are going out of context and making this into a statistic game, fine let me refine the question not like it matters. I really wanted to know exactly why DOs apply to MD residencies, is there more prestige, more opportunities, better experience, better teaching or what?

I still think you have some type of inferiority or some complex of some kind, to get all balled up in anger and take a simple question out of context and throw off the initial thread question...
Click to expand...


In answer to your initial question, which I consider a very legitimate one, I can tell you why I chose to withdraw from the D.O. match.
I withdrew because the city I wanted to move to did not offer any D.O. programs. Its that simple. Do I think there is more prestige or better education in allopathic residencies? In some, yes. In others, no. It really depends on the individual program. I think a lot of the allopathic residencies are older, more established and therefore more stable than some of the newly set up osteopathic residencies. I know I felt a lot more comfortable going to an allopathic hospital thats been training residents for many many years than going to a D.O. hospital thats only been training residents for a few years. There are lots of factors like this to look into when deciding where to go.
My biggest concern was looking for good teaching faculty. Additionally I looked at the current residents and how good they are.
It doesn't really matter if its a D.O. program or and M.D. program. What matters is the quality of faculty they have, the patient population you'll be exposed to, and many other things like this that will make you a well rounded physician.
 
jacksparrow82 said:
Another case in point showing that you are the one who actually needs to learn something here. A D.O. doesn't need to take the USMLE to participate in the allopathic match/residencies. There are tons of allopathic residencies that are perfectly fine with accepting comlex scores. I never took the USMLE and I'm starting an allopathic IM residency this summer. And I got interviews from every single allopathic IM program I applied to, none of them asked me about USMLE scores.
Sure the super competitive ones are going to want to see those scores, but thats certainly not the norm.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately for you BTH and I already discussed all these things...I admitted I was wrong, there is already information about this in the thread, I linked some of my own. Also I explained why I was quick to judge the OP, if you had been around longer you would know why I tend to assume threads like these are from trolls.

You are behind...dont call me a ***** when you didnt even read the thread...haha figures
 
Animus said:
Unfortunately for you BTH and I already discussed all these things...I admitted I was wrong, there is already information about this in the thread, I linked some of my own. Also I explained why I was quick to judge the OP, if you had been around longer you would know why I tend to assume threads like these are from trolls.

You are behind...dont call me a ***** when you didnt even read the thread...haha figures
Click to expand...

looks like we're goin down with this ship, animus.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

folkstyle
How do residency programs view outside field research?
Replies
5
Views
1K
scottsterling
scottsterling
B
  • Question Question
Auditioning at programs with low number of DOs residents
Replies
13
Views
2K
Bluesandstuff
B
OMSWeebHours
Why is Neurosurgery so competitive?
Replies
5
Views
3K
OMSWeebHours
OMSWeebHours
M
DO student, international, and anesthesia
Replies
3
Views
598
Ho0v-man
Ho0v-man
D
Residencies that DO's should not apply to
Replies
10
Views
3K
djiboutiman
djiboutiman
Top