Thanks a lot RVU.

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DO Anes

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Interesting story by David Whelan in the September 29,2008 issue of Forbes Magazine about Yife Tien and RVU. Just a few select quotes: "Yife Tien knows a medical school can be hugely profitable offshore. Now he wants to make a buck training osteopathic doctors in the U.S." "And osteopathic medicine has a certain disreputable tinge going back a century when osteopaths believed all disease sprang from the spine or the skeletal system." "...Tien knew a for-profit school for osteopathic medicine was the only way to win acreditation - and make money."
Well, that should just make all of us D.O.'s proud, shouldn't it? Thanks a lot RVU for setting our reputation back a hundred years. I hope Tien at least gets to buy himself something nice.
Shame on us.

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"And osteopathic medicine has a certain disreputable tinge going back a century when osteopaths believed all disease sprang from the spine or the skeletal system." "...Tien knew a for-profit school for osteopathic medicine was the only way to win acreditation - and make money."
Wow....that is all I have to say, wow. Shame on the "man" in charge.
 
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I love that one of the few times DOs and Osteopathic Medicine get any attention on a national level it's for something as ridiculous as a for-profit Medical School started by the "Tien Man." Just hilarious.
 
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bummer...that reeks of shame.
 
You should change the title to:

Thanks a lot COCA
 
Interesting story by David Whelan in the September 29,2008 issue of Forbes Magazine about Yife Tien and RVU. Just a few select quotes: "Yife Tien knows a medical school can be hugely profitable offshore. Now he wants to make a buck training osteopathic doctors in the U.S." "And osteopathic medicine has a certain disreputable tinge going back a century when osteopaths believed all disease sprang from the spine or the skeletal system." "...Tien knew a for-profit school for osteopathic medicine was the only way to win acreditation - and make money."
Well, that should just make all of us D.O.'s proud, shouldn't it? Thanks a lot RVU for setting our reputation back a hundred years. I hope Tien at least gets to buy himself something nice.
Shame on us.

Beautiful.

Read these words. And learn.

bth
 
If this article doesn't bring things into clarity for the AOA-COCA nothing will.

I'm guessing it won't.

I bet we'll get the same schpiel about how RVU has met and/or surpassed all of the accreditation standards set forth by COCA. And that COCA receives full authority to accredit schools via the US Department of Education. Therefore, it's impossible for their **** to stink!

The AOA and COCA suffer from chronic craniorectal syndrome, the only thing that will fix that is a good swift kick in the ass.. err.. head?
 
He zeroed in on Colorado as a good site because there are 5 million residents and only one medical school. (In Pennsylvania there are 1.5 million residents per med school.) As he was closing on the property near Denver, Tien started wooing supporters. It took some schmoozing. A lobbyist Tien hired found a booster in Richard Krugman, dean of the University of Colorado's medical school, after the lobbyist and Krugman lunched together. Krugman even spoke at Rocky Vista's ribbon cutting over the summer. Krugman says he has gotten some calls from both D.O.s and M.D.s urging him to somehow stop the school from opening, but he's refused. "It's unseemly to suggest that we shouldn't be training more physicians," he says.

What? :eek:
 
To the editor:

Regarding your article on Yife Tien’s for-profit medical school, “physician shortage”, “caring for the underserved” and “only a tax status” are convenient phrases used by Rocky Vista University to justify the opening of the first for-profit medical school in the United States since all such institutions were intentionally closed following the Flexner Report of 1910. Quite simply, there is no credible for-profit medical school anywhere in the industrialized world. These institutions exist primarily in permissive and impoverished locales, like the Caribbean, to take advantage of lax accreditation standards and the desire of individuals to obtain a medical degree, regardless its the cost or quality. Unfortunately, inferior accreditation standards of osteopathic schools combined with an unresponsive American Osteopathic Association have now allowed this model a foothold on American soil.
The mission of a medical school is to train the finest possible physician; the mission of a for-profit institution is to generate a return for its investors. Where will Rocky Vista draw the line? What portion of the educational curriculum, research program or clinic service will be eliminated in order for Tien to draw an acceptable profit and what will be the quality of the physician training in his “enterprise”? There is also no reason to believe that the for-profit model will supply more physicians to underserved populations. Indeed, the opposite is more likely. Despite lofty goals of caring for rural and impoverished locations, most graduates of medical schools enter into well-paying specialties so that they can better deal with the enormous debt incurred during their training. So Denver may get a few more cardiologists, while the migrant farm workers of Eastern Colorado continue to go without basic primary care. To suggest otherwise, as does Richard Krugman, is naive, at best.
The offshore medical school industry is intensely competitive and it is only a matter of time before Tien’s colleagues discover the osteopathic loophole and usher in a “Caribbean gold rush” of U.S. branch campuses. It follows that Federal authorities will eventually be compelled to step in and police the osteopathic profession, since it has failed to do so by itself.


George Mychaskiw II, DO, FAAP, FACOP
Professor of Anesthesiology
Former AOA Health Policy Fellow
 
"And osteopathic medicine has a certain disreputable tinge going back a century when osteopaths believed all disease sprang from the spine or the skeletal system. Today the D.O. curriculum is harder to distinguish from an M.D. curriculum."

This little blurb sounds much better when read in context. :thumbup:
 
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He zeroed in on Colorado as a good site because there are 5 million residents and only one medical school. (In Pennsylvania there are 1.5 million residents per med school.) As he was closing on the property near Denver, Tien started wooing supporters. It took some schmoozing. A lobbyist Tien hired found a booster in Richard Krugman, dean of the University of Colorado's medical school, after the lobbyist and Krugman lunched together. Krugman even spoke at Rocky Vista's ribbon cutting over the summer. Krugman says he has gotten some calls from both D.O.s and M.D.s urging him to somehow stop the school from opening, but he's refused. "It's unseemly to suggest that we shouldn't be training more physicians," he says.

What? :eek:

This is proof that the allopathic conspiracy to destroy osteopathic medicine is very much alive and well.
 
If this article doesn't bring things into clarity for the AOA-COCA nothing will.

The only thing that will bring things into perspective for them is shrinking membership lists. The best thing a DO can do to secure his or her future is cancel AOA membership. Trying to change that organization from within is like trying to steer the Titanic with an oar.
 
I guess I'm not sure what the problem with a for-profit medical school is. The tuition isn't higher and students won't be just 'buying' a degree, they'll have to meet the same standards every other student has to. Please explain to me why, if the students at RVU are receiving a quality education from qualified faculty, RVU opens creates new residencies, and the number of DOs increases, how that's a bad thing? It would be nice if everyone were super altruistic and were willing to give their money for an endeavor like a new medical school, but they aren't. Seems like RVU is a good thing-more qualified students get to go to medical school in the United States, the number of DOs increases (especially in the western USA), and there are more residencies. Again, how is that bad?

Lastly, before deciding to apply to DO school, I spent a lot of time speaking with many MDs and DOs about potential prejudices that exist. Not a single one, NOT one, DO mentioned feeling any prejudice, and not a single MD felt that DOs were subpar doctors. So, I'm sure that prejudices do exist, but probably people with prejudices are the minority. Clearly I don't know as well as practicing physicians...but honestly, practicing DOs, do you feel that you have to defend your degree on a daily basis?
 
I guess I'm not sure what the problem with a for-profit medical school is. The tuition isn't higher and students won't be just 'buying' a degree, they'll have to meet the same standards every other student has to. Please explain to me why, if the students at RVU are receiving a quality education from qualified faculty, RVU opens creates new residencies, and the number of DOs increases, how that's a bad thing? It would be nice if everyone were super altruistic and were willing to give their money for an endeavor like a new medical school, but they aren't. Seems like RVU is a good thing-more qualified students get to go to medical school in the United States, the number of DOs increases (especially in the western USA), and there are more residencies. Again, how is that bad?

Lastly, before deciding to apply to DO school, I spent a lot of time speaking with many MDs and DOs about potential prejudices that exist. Not a single one, NOT one, DO mentioned feeling any prejudice, and not a single MD felt that DOs were subpar doctors. So, I'm sure that prejudices do exist, but probably people with prejudices are the minority. Clearly I don't know as well as practicing physicians...but honestly, practicing DOs, do you feel that you have to defend your degree on a daily basis?

RE: bold- you really need to do some more research.
 
Nice response. Thanks for answering the question.
What somedoc is saying is show us the research that equates starting up new med schools with increasing # of available residencies... you probably won't find any.

As to the supposed feelings of "inferiority" or prejudice towards DOs, it's only really something that is perpetuated & experienced on a Pre-Med level. Some ACGME residencies MAY decide not to interview or accept DOs into a residency program, but they tend to be the exception and not the rule.
 
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I guess I'm not sure what the problem with a for-profit medical school is. The tuition isn't higher and students won't be just 'buying' a degree, they'll have to meet the same standards every other student has to. Please explain to me why, if the students at RVU are receiving a quality education from qualified faculty, RVU opens creates new residencies, and the number of DOs increases, how that's a bad thing? It would be nice if everyone were super altruistic and were willing to give their money for an endeavor like a new medical school, but they aren't. Seems like RVU is a good thing-more qualified students get to go to medical school in the United States, the number of DOs increases (especially in the western USA), and there are more residencies. Again, how is that bad?

Lastly, before deciding to apply to DO school, I spent a lot of time speaking with many MDs and DOs about potential prejudices that exist. Not a single one, NOT one, DO mentioned feeling any prejudice, and not a single MD felt that DOs were subpar doctors. So, I'm sure that prejudices do exist, but probably people with prejudices are the minority. Clearly I don't know as well as practicing physicians...but honestly, practicing DOs, do you feel that you have to defend your degree on a daily basis?

Nobody here is arguing the merits of the DO degree - we're arguing the advent and merits of a for-profit medical school. Again, see SomeDoc's response because that pretty much takes care of your argument.
 
What somedoc is saying is show us the research that equates starting up new med schools with increasing # of available residencies...

If this situation were true, there would be hundreds of new DO residencies started in the last 5 years. Unfortunately ... this is not the case (on the MD or DO side).
 
I thought the article was neutral...
 
I guess I'm not sure what the problem with a for-profit medical school is. The tuition isn't higher and students won't be just 'buying' a degree, they'll have to meet the same standards every other student has to. Please explain to me why, if the students at RVU are receiving a quality education from qualified faculty, RVU opens creates new residencies, and the number of DOs increases, how that's a bad thing? It would be nice if everyone were super altruistic and were willing to give their money for an endeavor like a new medical school, but they aren't. Seems like RVU is a good thing-more qualified students get to go to medical school in the United States, the number of DOs increases (especially in the western USA), and there are more residencies. Again, how is that bad?

Lastly, before deciding to apply to DO school, I spent a lot of time speaking with many MDs and DOs about potential prejudices that exist. Not a single one, NOT one, DO mentioned feeling any prejudice, and not a single MD felt that DOs were subpar doctors. So, I'm sure that prejudices do exist, but probably people with prejudices are the minority. Clearly I don't know as well as practicing physicians...but honestly, practicing DOs, do you feel that you have to defend your degree on a daily basis?


I guess my problem with for-profit med schools is that the altruism is lost in the training of the future physician and another huge competing interest comes into play with the quality of education-- profit. It suddenly makes medicine dirty and sucks something kind of sacred out of it.

I have a lot of respect for my osteopathic colleagues, but it's hard not to look at your governing body, the AOA (or whoever let RVU happen, and I'm not saying that it's a bad school or that it can't produce quality physicians) and not say, "what on earth were they thinking?"
 
A few problems with a for-profit school:
1. The attitudes of a student: any of RVU's students are quick to jump on the bandwagon of "medicine is a business, etc.". Of course that is true, but do we really need to inculcate that at the medical school level? What sort of philosophy and world view will their students have?
2. Quality: there has to be a line drawn to balance quality and profits. Will their students be the best possible physicians or just good enough?
3. Precedent: RVU's leadership is excellent and I suspect they will be a quality school. What about the next school when the "gold rush" starts? Will DO schools be seen as diploma mills? What will happens when an osteopathic Libby Zion case occurs and a grad of a for-profit is involved? Will Federal regulators overreact and severely limit practice rights?
4. Perception: Some very senior officials at allopathic medical schools and in the larger medical world already believe that osteopathic schools are for-profit and of lesser quality. As one said to me about the new William Carey school, "but you know the DO schools are for-profit." RVU has painted the entire profession with its brush. Osteopathic schools will be seen as skimming off the work and research that that larger schools have accomplished, while contributing nothing. There is no credible for-profit medical school in the industrialized world and, in general, all for-profit educational entities are seen as less desirable and of lower quality than the non-profits, medical or otherwise.
RVU, with the AOA's and COCA's help, has damaged the credibility of this profession and left us vulnerable to a backward move. I shudder to think what leaders in medical education believe abut us when they see RVU written up in Forbes as an entreprenurial business model and a clever way for Tien to make a buck. The AMA and LCME would never have permitted this to occur. Tien knew this and took the easy way, the DO way, out.
 
A few problems with a for-profit school:
1. The attitudes of a student: any of RVU's students are quick to jump on the bandwagon of "medicine is a business, etc.". Of course that is true, but do we really need to inculcate that at the medical school level? What sort of philosophy and world view will their students have?
2. Quality: there has to be a line drawn to balance quality and profits. Will their students be the best possible physicians or just good enough?
3. Precedent: RVU's leadership is excellent and I suspect they will be a quality school. What about the next school when the "gold rush" starts? Will DO schools be seen as diploma mills? What will happens when an osteopathic Libby Zion case occurs and a grad of a for-profit is involved? Will Federal regulators overreact and severely limit practice rights?
4. Perception: Some very senior officials at allopathic medical schools and in the larger medical world already believe that osteopathic schools are for-profit and of lesser quality. As one said to me about the new William Carey school, "but you know the DO schools are for-profit." RVU has painted the entire profession with its brush. Osteopathic schools will be seen as skimming off the work and research that that larger schools have accomplished, while contributing nothing. There is no credible for-profit medical school in the industrialized world and, in general, all for-profit educational entities are seen as less desirable and of lower quality than the non-profits, medical or otherwise.
RVU, with the AOA's and COCA's help, has damaged the credibility of this profession and left us vulnerable to a backward move. I shudder to think what leaders in medical education believe abut us when they see RVU written up in Forbes as an entreprenurial business model and a clever way for Tien to make a buck. The AMA and LCME would never have permitted this to occur. Tien knew this and took the easy way, the DO way, out.

Thank you, you answered my question. I'm not an RVU student, probably not one of my top choices, but I was curious to understand exactly what the problem is, I can definitely see your points.
 
A few problems with a for-profit school:
1. The attitudes of a student: any of RVU's students are quick to jump on the bandwagon of "medicine is a business, etc.". Of course that is true, but do we really need to inculcate that at the medical school level? What sort of philosophy and world view will their students have?
2. Quality: there has to be a line drawn to balance quality and profits. Will their students be the best possible physicians or just good enough?
3. Precedent: RVU's leadership is excellent and I suspect they will be a quality school. What about the next school when the "gold rush" starts? Will DO schools be seen as diploma mills? What will happens when an osteopathic Libby Zion case occurs and a grad of a for-profit is involved? Will Federal regulators overreact and severely limit practice rights?
4. Perception: Some very senior officials at allopathic medical schools and in the larger medical world already believe that osteopathic schools are for-profit and of lesser quality. As one said to me about the new William Carey school, "but you know the DO schools are for-profit." RVU has painted the entire profession with its brush. Osteopathic schools will be seen as skimming off the work and research that that larger schools have accomplished, while contributing nothing. There is no credible for-profit medical school in the industrialized world and, in general, all for-profit educational entities are seen as less desirable and of lower quality than the non-profits, medical or otherwise.
RVU, with the AOA's and COCA's help, has damaged the credibility of this profession and left us vulnerable to a backward move. I shudder to think what leaders in medical education believe abut us when they see RVU written up in Forbes as an entreprenurial business model and a clever way for Tien to make a buck. The AMA and LCME would never have permitted this to occur. Tien knew this and took the easy way, the DO way, out.

Well put. I hope/really believe most of that WILL be prevented but I really hope it doesn't.
 
It is disheartening to say the least. The old guard guys that truly believed that DOs are inferior are fading away fast, but then something like this swoops down and creates a new generation to pass judgement. People will not look at this and see it as the exception, it will become the rule. I'm not going to say its going to be a fallout for osteopathic medicine, but it gives the vibe of being guilty until proven innocent. With the current climate in the US, I suspect that a for-profit medical school is at the bottom of their list too...
 
You would think the AOA would release a piece of press against this article or dispel rumors. Wow, just wow.

I really don't see it that way. In it's entirety, the article realy doesn't paint a negative picture of osteopathic medicine, nor of Rocky Vista itself. It really is a very fair treatment of the topic without any seeming bias one way or another. You can certainly pick out quotes and make them sound devastating if you use them out of context, though.

I conducted my own little unscientific poll today during the noon conference today. There were 18 MDs and 3 DOs present. None of them had heard about it and none were really too concerned. A couple of the MDs came from "for profit" schools in the carribean. They don't seem to have suffered for it and I think they're pretty good docs.

I agree that a "for profit" DO school is a bad idea. Yet, it's a done deal and we're all gonna be working beside those DOs from a "for profit" school the same way we're already working beside thousands of MDs from "for profit" schools every day.
 
I agree that a "for profit" DO school is a bad idea. Yet, it's a done deal and we're all gonna be working beside those DOs from a "for profit" school .

That's the bottom line. What's done is done. I think we all hope RVU produces quality osteopathic physicians, and that For-Profit models are swatted down in the future.
 
And the AOA wants to know why I haven't sent in a donation of my hard earned "residency salary" yet. HA!

Still at least the guy gave some people the opportunity to become doctors, even if it is just for personal gain. Be thankful for the opportunity and treat it as such. It's really up to us as individuals to make a good name for us, because my personal impression is that the AOA is not going to do it, the AMA won't do it and people like Tien who possesses sound financial acumen but lacks in other qualities won't do it.

To you RVUers, take note: study hard, pass your boards and don't rock the boat. Sounds like you're just another dollar sign to this guy so don't give them a reason to boot ya! As they say, "Failure is bad for business."

Former Corporate minion and former computer programmer,
Richie <3
 
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How much longer are we going to run our little osteopathic world separate from allopathic medicine? These two professions are identical. DO students get 2 years of minimal manipulative training in years 1 and 2 of med school, with a minor few going onto further training in years 3 and 4. This somehow defines our degree of Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine.

61% of DO students entered ACGME programs last year. Of those that enter the DO match less than 50% entered into primary care or fields in which OMM has any significant application. Osteopathic Medicine has just opened a for profit medical school that both our past and current AOA president endorse &#8211; and to second this I would note that the past AOA president was an orthopedic surgeon and the current an ophthalmologist; 2 fields which exist far from the primary care spectrum DOs so covert.
Lets be honest to ourselves, our patients, and our profession - we are hardly different than our MD counterparts.

Merge the AOA and AACOM with the AMA and AAMC.
Let's eliminate the time, money, and energy DOs must waste trying to convince the world we are equivalent to medical doctors -except a bit different/holistic/____(fill in with whatever AOA non-sense wording you would like)
 
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A few problems with a for-profit school:
1. The attitudes of a student: any of RVU's students are quick to jump on the bandwagon of "medicine is a business, etc.".

2. Quality: there has to be a line drawn to balance quality and profits. Will their students be the best possible physicians or just good enough?

3. Precedent: Will DO schools be seen as diploma mills?

4. Perception: Osteopathic schools will be seen as skimming off the work and research that that larger schools have accomplished, while contributing nothing. There is no credible for-profit medical school in the industrialized world...

Alright, is a for-profit the best idea? Probably not. But can it be a great institution? Absolutely. Your points are noted, but you fail to foresee with optimism. This isn't to imply you're 'wrong,' I'm simply shedding some positive light. And yes, I'm an RVU student.

1. The attitudes of the students are the same as any medical student. We study and worry about tests. I haven't heard the slightest hint of anyone thinking that since we're for-profit that medicine is just a business. I think everyone of us is here to be physicians.

2. I can assure you our facilities and faculty are well-above average for the 7 or 8 med schools I've toured. The students work hard and are striving to be experts. "Just good enough" is no more prevelant here than at ANY other medical school in the country.

3. Diploma mills. Doesn't every university have the goal of graduating students? Yes, they do. And yes, we want all of our students to graduate. But guess what? We still have to pass the tests and the boards.

4. If you think providing the western states with 160 doctors/year is providing nothing, then yeah, I guess we're providing nothing. And I don't know if there are other for-profit medical schools out there, but I also don't care. I'm just looking for good doctors, regardless of where they came from. Keep watching RVU, we're working hard to become the best we can. We'll make you proud.
 
I dont think that anyone is questioning the students at RVU. You are all qualified and dedicated, and you do have valid point regarding
the school..note taken.

I think what many are questioning is what the schools tax status and ownership (Caribbean school investors)
implies about the DO profession as a whole. In my opinion, this only perpetuates the idea that our schools are
somewhat backup institutions to our MD counterparts, similar to SGU, American of the Caribbean, ___carribean med school, etc.

We can inflate it all we want with OMM, holistic medicine, primary care focus, whatever...but at the end of the
day I dont feel honest in those statements.

Carribean med schools could probobly claim the same..in fact a greater percentage of grads from the big 4 carib schools
actually enter into primary care than many of our osteopathic colleges. Funny how that works out.

No offense to its students, but I believe there is honest critique in saying RVU is essentially a carribean med school
sanctioned by COCA to exist within the US borders. Yes, you are all students who will work hard to pass the COMLEX
and practice medicine in the West - this is true - and you have my support as you further our proffessions numbers -
no one is critiquing that, but the institution of RVU has severely damaged (in my belief) the image of osteopathic medicine.

Again...Im for a merge with allopathic medicine. This proffession is wasting money, energy, and reasources to promote
something that is clinically no different than an MD 98% of the time; and furthermore does injustice to actual DOs around the world.
 
The AOA recently visited PCOM. They said to get used to the idea of a for-profit school because there are already MORE in the works. :thumbdown:

I hate politics. Almost as disappointing as this bailout, but worse because this is my profession.
 
The AOA recently visited PCOM. They said to get used to the idea of a for-profit school because there are already MORE in the works. :thumbdown:

I hate politics. Almost as disappointing as this bailout, but worse because this is my profession.

I'm in a state of shock reading your post.
 
The AOA recently visited PCOM. They said to get used to the idea of a for-profit school because there are already MORE in the works. :thumbdown:

I hate politics. Almost as disappointing as this bailout, but worse because this is my profession.


Wow that really sucks to hear.....
 
The AOA recently visited PCOM. They said to get used to the idea of a for-profit school because there are already MORE in the works. :thumbdown:

I hate politics. Almost as disappointing as this bailout, but worse because this is my profession.

Unbelievable.
 
It is inevitable that a gold rush will start. Opening a DO school is better than printing money. Tien may be many things, but stupid is not one of them. It is also inevitable that the US Dept of Education will eventually end the osteopathic money train. All it took was one well publicized death for the ACGME to completely reform their programs. Who is the osteopathic Libby Zion? Don't be surprised by a nationwide conversion of DO to MD, particularly for those who did ACGME residencies, followed by a closure of any school that does not meet LCME standards for accreditation.
Would the last DO please turn off the lights?
 
The AOA recently visited PCOM. They said to get used to the idea of a for-profit school because there are already MORE in the works. :thumbdown:

I hate politics. Almost as disappointing as this bailout, but worse because this is my profession.

Honestly, after reading this I just closed SDN and slammed my laptop shut until I could even think of something to type. Could you please elaborate on this, because this is just out of control. It's unbelievable.
 
It would be nice is COSGP, SOMA or someone could get a resolution to the floor of the house of delegates disapproving of for-profit medical education. If we, as a profession, can't even do something so small, something that is already in the LCME standards, then we don't deserve to exist. The silence from the AOA, Osteopathic Deans and the old boy network is disappointing.
 
It would be nice is COSGP, SOMA or someone could get a resolution to the floor of the house of delegates disapproving of for-profit medical education. If we, as a profession, can't even do something so small, something that is already in the LCME standards, then we don't deserve to exist. The silence from the AOA, Osteopathic Deans and the old boy network is disappointing.

Sadly there's two problems with this: 1) No one in student gov't is going to risk the ire of their dean/faculty and 2) no one listens to us students anyway. This fight is going to have to come from the doctors ...lots and lots of them to make enough noise to make the AOA listen.

At any rate I'd like to find out more info about the rumor of new for profit schools. Are there any links or news items to confirm it?
 
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Sadly there's two problems with this: 1) No one in student gov't is going to risk the ire of their dean/faculty and 2) no one listens to us students anyway. This fight is going to have to come from the doctors ...lots and lots of them to make enough noise to make the AOA listen.

Good point. Unfortunately, 2/3 of grads going into ACGME and don't need or care about AOA/COCA. The remaining few need AOA for their licensure/certification and are afraid to make noise. Of course, there are always some who aspire to join the old boy network and get their piece of the pie.
Pathetic.
 
Sadly there's two problems with this: 1) No one in student gov't is going to risk the ire of their dean/faculty and 2) no one listens to us students anyway. This fight is going to have to come from the doctors ...lots and lots of them to make enough noise to make the AOA listen.

:thumbup:

There's a lot of fear out there, and you can't really blame them, our careers are at stake. As far as the AOA goes, listening to students just isn't something they do.
 
Sadly there's two problems with this: 1) No one in student gov't is going to risk the ire of their dean/faculty and 2) no one listens to us students anyway. This fight is going to have to come from the doctors ...lots and lots of them to make enough noise to make the AOA listen.

At any rate I'd like to find out more info about the rumor of new for profit schools. Are there any links or news items to confirm it?

I'm not altogether I understand the premise of this... you believe a dean or faculty would come down hard on a SOMA group that expressed due diligence on the subject of the future of their profession? I would hope that wouldn't be the case, after all. I sincerely hope that wouldn't be the case. What else is SOMA for than to do just that?

That being said, I wouldn't just throw up a motion and ask that it be approved to make waves. I think SOMA should vote on their own inquiry into the matter, and collect some serious information to present to people who are interested in the subject, in a non-partisan manner. Know what I mean? After all, we're all professionals... some of us pre-professionals like myself.
 
The only DO schools that will open from now forward will be for-profit. Now that AAMC has opened their doors to new MD schools, no right minded investor/public university is going to open a program granting the less popular degree (aka DO) - i know that may be offensive but its the truth.

This is the reason why RVU was created, b/c no non-profits want to open DO programs anymore. Even Touro - who has 3 DO schools in NV, CA, and NY has applied to open an MD granting institution - what does that say to you?

This isn't rocket science or that hard to understand. The expansion of MD institutions/class size in the next 10 years is going to crush our stature in medicine.

Our profession needs to take a serious look at what this means for our future and stop pretending as if our unrecognizable DO title is going to make it in the next 20 years.
 
Interesting view.
 
The more I'm learning about this, the less I'm apt to panic.
I'm reaching out to real professionals in a position of knowing,
and the DO I spoke with today who's got a unique vantage at the AOA
isn't worried in the least, and he's privy to all the details of this for profit expansion. We didn't have an in depth conversation about it, I'm just letting you guys know that we don't have all the facts here. Rocket science or no, grand predictive statements aren't getting us any closer to the truth of the intelligence of this roll out.
Speaking of for-profit, the only person I listen to when they say the sky is about to come crashing down is Jim Cramer, and only in the last year ;) DOW down to 9400? Grab your penny jar, boys and girls, it's time to invest! Let's see if we can get it to hit 8500, first, actually.
 
I have some problems with for profit medical education, too, and I think it poses a major risk to the public perception of osteopathy, but let's be fair to Tien. The only plainly offensive statement in the article:

"And osteopathic medicine has a certain disreputable tinge going back a century when osteopaths believed all disease sprang from the spine or the skeletal system"

was made by the author himself in reference to whether Tien could make a good business case to prospective students for a degree from RVU that costs nearly the same as one from Yale. Tien personally has a strong financial incentive to promote the osteopathic brand any way he can.
 
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