vet school with a family?

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cozycleo

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Ah yes that question again. I have seen the previous threads, but I was thinking I'd start a more current discussion.

How many of you are doing this school thing with kids? How many holding off until after?

Five years ago I probably never would have thought twice about it because of my age, but now I'm getting a little older and the baby bug comes and goes. Even if we wanted kids now, we couldn't really afford them because I'm trying to concentrate on my pre-reqs and experience and quit my stressful but well-paying job in order to do so. My husband and I are in no hurry to have kids right now.

That said, I'm also realizing that I could be well into my mid to late 30s by the time I finish (making the broad assumption I am accepted to school in the next few years). My mom assures me that I come from a long line of "Fertile Myrtles" who have had no trouble conceiving in their 30s. But of course that still begs the question of when is the right time to think about starting a family? We're definitely not in a position to start now, but I can't imagine it's the best idea in the world to start in the middle of vet school either.

I know everyone's situation is different and we need to do what is best for us. We genuinely don't know what the best solution for us is at the moment. Right now I'm trying not to think about it and concentrate, but I admit the closer I get to 30, the more I think about it.

Not sure I'm looking for advice so much as your thoughts on the idea of having a family while in school. I know a lot of you are starting with kids already. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.
 
I would start a family when you and your husband are ready to start a family. Rushing to get pregnant now when you're not ready just to get started before school is a bad idea.

On the other hand, putting it off once you're ready because of school is also not that great -- because it doesn't get any easier. Your first few years out of school when you're starting a job, building a practice, doing an internship/residency are just as hard and usually harder than school. In my opinion, the first 2-3 years of vet. school before starting hospital rotations are actually a pretty good time to start. Your hours are pretty long but they're predictable -- you don't get called in at 2 am to look at histology slides -- you have weekends, holidays and semester breaks, and you're not on your feet that much. Hell, you can study in bed for the most part.

But once you start hospital duty in school or after, there will be days where you're lucky if you can get to the bathroom, much less eat a healthy meal. Add in X-rays, anesthetic gases, hot/cold weather, zoonotic diseases, crazy horses, stress of patients crumping and clients feaking ... it's tough enough without dealing with morning sickness, breast feeding and water breaking.

Of course the best time is probably once you've been established in practice/career for about 10 years. Unfortunately mother nature often doesn't agree with this strategy.
 
twelvetigers said:
Or, adcoms don't agree with this strategy. 😉 Hurry up and let me into vet school, I need to have babies in 12 years. I'm on a schedule!
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lol*snort*lol
I wonder if I could just tell my interviewers "let me in this year because my ovaries aren't getting any younger".....?:laugh:

My husband and I don't feel ready for kids yet but we're getting closer. I was thinking I would try to get pregnant in my last year and give birth after graduation. My husband would then take over and work from home or be a stay at home dadso I could work. I'm saying all this like I actually have control over any of it 🙄. I worry about waiting too long because after 30 your chances of fertility and birth defects goes up but I'm about to be 29 so I have to start seriously thinking about what is realistic and healthy. One of the doctors I work with had kids before vet school and said there were a few students pregnant after the 2nd year and through to graduation. So it is doable but I worry about the amount of extra stress. Can you imagine going into labor during finals? Eek!😱
 
CatVet2Be
That's funny. I was thinking along the same lines and almost the same time line.

Our genetics professor was going on and on about how genetic defects go up after 30-35. I am a little worried too. It's nice to see that others share your concerns and that you are not alone🙄.
 
I don't know that this helps, but at our info session for NCSU, without being asked any related questions, the admissions officer told us that with an 80% female population, pregnancies during school were not unusual, and that almost all of those students still completed thier DVM either on time or with one extra year.
 
Well, I can't tell you how successful my approach will be because I haven't done it yet, but I'm gonna try!

I had three kids before school. My youngest is only 3 months old. My oldest is 4. In some ways this is the hardest time to try to go back to school. It will be easier when they are in full time school themselves. However, I don't want to wait 6 years before even STARTING, since my personal path is a minimum of 9 years and that's full time with no years off (two years to vet tech, then three more to BS, then 4 in vet school). Not sure that's realistic, so I'm adding a couple years for good measure. This means I will graduate at age 40.

I had kids first on purpose because I wanted whatever degree I got to be fresh and relevant when I used it instead of a decade old. Also, I didn't for sure know what I wanted to do/be. I'm more sure now. And I've had enough time out of school that I am itching to get back, which is a major improvement to just after HS, when I hated the very idea of more school for any reason.

But I'll be honest; I'm stressing. We can afford for me to stay home with the kids. We cannot afford to pay for childcare for three preschoolers while I am in class, so I'll have to take out loans and get a part time night job just to cover the cost of childcare! I'm honestly overwhelmed already and haven't even started yet. BUT. The thought of waiting is even worse.

I'd love to hear from other people who have done this with kids.
 
I'd like to get started with school before having any children. I had always imagined that I would have kids after I finished vet school, but seeing as how I didn't quite get in on my first try... I suppose things could shift on the timeline and I might like to try for a child during. However, I couldn't even begin to make that decision without getting in and seeing what it's like for me. I am okay enough with the idea of adoption that I would not be devastated if I needed to go that route. That was always a part of the plan, anyway... one ours, one adopted.

I have a hard time thinking about the timing of it too seriously. But, I'm 23. Gimme a few years, the timer will start going off. Lol. 🙂
 
The last few months I have been thinking about how in the future I would like to have kids and a full time career. At this point in time, I am not anywhere near ready to have kids (including the fact that I haven't met anyone yet who I'd want to have kids with, haha)..but it does cross my mind.

If I found the right person, would I want to have kids later during school/right after I get out (late 20's/early 30's) with all the stress of trying to learn everything in school and for the 1st few years after graduation or.... after I've been out for a while (mid-late 30's) with all the stress of having been more established but having to take time off?

But, it's not something that I can say that I have a definite answer for...especially since the decision would also be dependent on whoever my future significant other is.
 
autumnmuse said:
I'd love to hear from other people who have done this with kids.
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I would too. When I start applying to vet school in a couple years, I am going to be the single mom of a toddler and under 25! Luckily, I have an incredibly supportive family. My mom doesn't work, so she is available and willing to provide childcare for my daughter while I'm in school.
 
To be the devil's advocate...

Why are you going to spend 8+ years in school just so you can get out and pop out a baby? Yeah, you can work part time, get a boss who supports mothers, blah blah blah but don't you think that you'll want to practice vet med as much as possible when you graduate? I mean, we'll all be THOUSANDS in debt (most of us) and now you want to 'put your career on hold' (which hasn't even started) so you can have kids?

Haha.... this is NOT directed towards any one person (or any two or three) but it's just another perspective. Don't get mad at me! I'm just playing the bad guy.
 
I believe it is possible for a veterinarian to successfully have both--a full time career and a family.

Personally, I was born into a family where this option took place (although instead of a vet, it was an MD).
 
sofficat said:
To be the devil's advocate...

Why are you going to spend 8+ years in school just so you can get out and pop out a baby? Yeah, you can work part time, get a boss who supports mothers, blah blah blah but don't you think that you'll want to practice vet med as much as possible when you graduate? I mean, we'll all be THOUSANDS in debt (most of us) and now you want to 'put your career on hold' (which hasn't even started) so you can have kids?

Haha.... this is NOT directed towards any one person (or any two or three) but it's just another perspective. Don't get mad at me! I'm just playing the bad guy.
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Are you a man by chance? I don't say this to be judgmental, it's just that many men don't appreciate the choices a woman is forced to make. A lot of women have to find some way to balance wanting a great career and having a baby before the risks of genetic defects starts to rise. What she described above is what I hear from a lot of 20-somethings. I'm in my early 30's and can appreciate the bind that she is in. Women have to make hard decisions when career meets genetics.
 
autumnmuse said:
However, I don't want to wait 6 years before even STARTING, since my personal path is a minimum of 9 years and that's full time with no years off (two years to vet tech, then three more to BS, then 4 in vet school). Not sure that's realistic, so I'm adding a couple years for good measure. This means I will graduate at age 40.
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Just a quick question - what's the reason behind getting a tech degree? If your timeline is that crunched (and daunting!), would it make more sense to go to school for prereqs part-time and get a job as a vet assistant or something else in the field? You don't need to be a tech to get into vet school (there's actually a bit of debate over whether it really helps). Also, not every vet school requires that you complete a degree - as long as you have the prerequisites done.

I'm sure you have perfectly good reasons and have put a lot of thought into this, I just saw that you were new here and wanted to point those things out in case they helped at all.
 
LucyLoo said:
Are you a man by chance? I don't say this to be judgmental, it's just that many men don't appreciate the choices a woman is forced to make. A lot of women have to find some way to balance wanting a great career and having a baby before the risks of genetic defects starts to rise. What she described above is what I hear from a lot of 20-somethings. I'm in my early 30's and can appreciate the bind that she is in. Women have to make hard decisions when career meets genetics.
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sofficat doesn't have to be a man or really young to say something like that. I know it's sort of just a devil's advocate post but there's some measure of it that my brain (as a 28 year old) wants to agree with, as politically incorrect and misogynistic as it sounds. Having kids is not important to every woman and it's not really correct to assume that anyone who could hold a viewpoint like that must be a man.

Personally, my priorities are probably a little deviated from the norm. My future career ambitions are my number one priority by far, and so at the moment graduate school rules my life. My relationship is a pretty distant second to this, as selfish as it may seem. I enjoy the company of my SO and would miss him, but in the end if I had to choose (and I may end up having to), I would and will do what I need to do to look out for myself with no hesitation and no regrets. Starting a family isn't even a consideration to me, anywhere on my radar, and I know myself well enough to realize that it 99% likely never will be.

It follows that it is hard for me to consider that women would be planning to go through something like pregnancy while in professional or graduate school. I will also admit something here that probably will make me seem like a real jerk - I get a twinge of feeling like people who are actually planning things out like this (I mean getting pregnant while in school/JUST out of school, not going after you have kids or establishing a career and then taking a break for kids) are the ones with really screwed up priorities. I think my female-brain-wiring is abnormal or something, who knows. v😳v
 
LucyLoo said:
Are you a man by chance? I don't say this to be judgmental, it's just that many men don't appreciate the choices a woman is forced to make. A lot of women have to find some way to balance wanting a great career and having a baby before the risks of genetic defects starts to rise. What she described above is what I hear from a lot of 20-somethings. I'm in my early 30's and can appreciate the bind that she is in. Women have to make hard decisions when career meets genetics.
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I don't think I could have said it much better. By the time I can even apply, I'll be hitting 30. When you take into account 4 years of school plus an internship or whatever path you take when getting started, it could be a long time before "the right time" comes along.

I hate to generalize, but men rarely have to ask themselves how they're going to balance family and career. I know it's definitely not a factor in my husband's career decisions, nor of any man I've ever known. This would not be an issue if I was still 22, but I'm not.

Granted that I am not a mom and can't 100% say for sure that I won't change, but I am not the type of person who enjoys working part time. If I'm going to spend all this time, energy and money to get in, then damn right I'm going to bust my buns with the rest of them and I won't expect special treatment. I wasn't fortunate enough to know what I wanted in terms of career when I first entered college, and I have had to work very hard just to even get my pre-reqs and experience so far. I just don't think women should have to sacrifice family for career, or vice versa.

Edited to add: To clarify my specific situation, I was not ready for a baby at all before. It wasn't anywhere near my realm of thought for the most part until the last year or so. I was busy with my legal career and planning my wedding and just enjoying being child-free for awhile. The vet school bug hit before the baby bug did.
 
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DVMorBust said:
Just a quick question - what's the reason behind getting a tech degree? If your timeline is that crunched (and daunting!), would it make more sense to go to school for prereqs part-time and get a job as a vet assistant or something else in the field? You don't need to be a tech to get into vet school (there's actually a bit of debate over whether it really helps). Also, not every vet school requires that you complete a degree - as long as you have the prerequisites done.

I'm sure you have perfectly good reasons and have put a lot of thought into this, I just saw that you were new here and wanted to point those things out in case they helped at all.
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Thank you so much for your advice! I will take all I can get, and yes, I'm new and frankly a little overwhelmed with it all. Well, I CAN do it without a tech degree. My husband and I have discussed the pros and cons. But I guess I am pretty sure that life is going to happen while I'm busy making other plans, and if for some reason I have to stop school for a few years, I would like to have something under my belt. It looks better on a resume to say that I am a certified vet tech than to say I went to college for a couple years and got some science classes done, but then had to stop. My plan has two stopping places built in, and while I'm hoping I won't have to use either one, I want to have the option. That is also why I want a full BS instead of just pre-reqs. I can still get jobs in the animal field with a BS in Animal Science, if I have to take a break before vet school (or if the schools don't accept me right away).

The other reason to do the tech path instead of just volunteering and getting my foot in the door however I can, is that I am a mom of three, and I will have to pay childcare for anything I do that is during the day. I need to bring home a paycheck to balance that, at least for part of it, and financially I cannot afford to simply volunteer, while paying for childcare to do so. I have also thought about working nights, but if I work all night, or even half the night, I'll be sleeping when the kids are up, also a problem.

To be honest, I don't know if I can do this if I am forced to work while in school. Being a mom is VERY important to me, which is why I've been a homemaker for the past 5 years. It's a huge step to even consider being gone a few hours during the day for classes; much less adding the additional hours of a job to the mix. So I'm hoping against hope that I can find affordable childcare and we can tighten our belts and I won't have to work while in tech school. After I graduate I can take a couple years and work if I have to, to save up for the next segment of school and pay down student loans.

Sorry for the novel, did I mention in my other life I'm a writer? 😛
 
If someone asked me to choose between vet school and my husband, I'd choose my husband, hands down!

Thing is, he would never force me to make a choice like that, so it would definitely have to be some strange circumstance or situation that causes the choice.

On another note, there are definitely ladies out there that don't want children. That's great, and a very personal choice that I have no reason to criticize! However, I would like to have at least one child with the man I love so much. I hope it's a girl, and that she has black, curly hair (from the Hispanic side). But obviously, if these things don't pan out like I had planned, I won't be angry or devastated, I'll just change my plans and move along. Like I said before, adoption is a real possibility for me, and you can do that at 35 without worrying about defects.
 
nyanko said:
sofficat doesn't have to be a man or really young to say something like that. I know it's sort of just a devil's advocate post but there's some measure of it that my brain (as a 28 year old) wants to agree with, as politically incorrect and misogynistic as it sounds. Having kids is not important to every woman and it's not really correct to assume that anyone who could hold a viewpoint like that must be a man.

Personally, my priorities are probably a little deviated from the norm. My future career ambitions are my number one priority by far, and so at the moment graduate school rules my life. My relationship is a pretty distant second to this, as selfish as it may seem. I enjoy the company of my SO and would miss him, but in the end if I had to choose (and I may end up having to), I would and will do what I need to do to look out for myself with no hesitation and no regrets. Starting a family isn't even a consideration to me, anywhere on my radar, and I know myself well enough to realize that it 99% likely never will be.

It follows that it is hard for me to consider that women would be planning to go through something like pregnancy while in professional or graduate school. I will also admit something here that probably will make me seem like a real jerk - I get a twinge of feeling like people who are actually planning things out like this (I mean getting pregnant while in school/JUST out of school, not going after you have kids or establishing a career and then taking a break for kids) are the ones with really screwed up priorities. I think my female-brain-wiring is abnormal or something, who knows. v😳v
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I'm well aware you don't have to be a man to say something like that, my point is that I mostly hear it from men. I am also aware that having a baby is not a priority or even desired for every woman. I actually had feelings similar to yours when I was in my mid-20's but as I've gotten older I have begun to look at things differently. And I am NOT saying everyone will change their mind, just that our perspectives can change with experience as we age. Sometimes more than you can anticipate.
 
nyanko said:
sofficat doesn't have to be a man or really young to say something like that. I know it's sort of just a devil's advocate post but there's some measure of it that my brain (as a 28 year old) wants to agree with, as politically incorrect and misogynistic as it sounds. Having kids is not important to every woman and it's not really correct to assume that anyone who could hold a viewpoint like that must be a man.

Personally, my priorities are probably a little deviated from the norm. My future career ambitions are my number one priority by far, and so at the moment graduate school rules my life. My relationship is a pretty distant second to this, as selfish as it may seem. I enjoy the company of my SO and would miss him, but in the end if I had to choose (and I may end up having to), I would and will do what I need to do to look out for myself with no hesitation and no regrets. Starting a family isn't even a consideration to me, anywhere on my radar, and I know myself well enough to realize that it 99% likely never will be.

It follows that it is hard for me to consider that women would be planning to go through something like pregnancy while in professional or graduate school. I will also admit something here that probably will make me seem like a real jerk - I get a twinge of feeling like people who are actually planning things out like this (I mean getting pregnant while in school/JUST out of school, not going after you have kids or establishing a career and then taking a break for kids) are the ones with really screwed up priorities. I think my female-brain-wiring is abnormal or something, who knows. v😳v
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I also don't particularly want kids, but if you read sofficat's post she seems to think it is impossible to have kids and be a vet. Everyone that goes to vet school doesn't want to spend every minute of their life working. If people want kids, they should have kids. It is quite possible and typical to have a child and get back to working fairly soon. Planning is the responsible thing in this situation - I don't understand how that is a screwed up priority.
 
ri23 said:
I also don't particularly want kids, but if you read sofficat's post she seems to think it is impossible to have kids and be a vet. Everyone that goes to vet school doesn't want to spend every minute of their life working. If people want kids, they should have kids. It is quite possible and typical to have a child and get back to working fairly soon. Planning is the responsible thing in this situation - I don't understand how that is a screwed up priority.
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It's not by definition a screwed up priority, it's just difficult for those of us who don't want kids to empathize with it, since it's not something that defines our life path.

Edit to add: Of course planning is the right thing to do when you're figuring out when to have kids! I have no idea how you could do it without planning. It just gets a little bit frustrating sometimes when it seems like a lot of people are hinting that 'woman=want kids=family will come first'. Not that either choice is right for everyone, and obviously lots of thought should go into making either decision.
 
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LucyLoo said:
I'm well aware you don't have to be a man to say something like that, my point is that I mostly hear it from men. I am also aware that having a baby is not a priority or even desired for every woman. I actually had feelings similar to yours when I was in my mid-20's but as I've gotten older I have begun to look at things differently. And I am NOT saying everyone will change their mind, just that our perspectives can change with experience as we age. Sometimes more than you can anticipate.
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You know, I feel like that bolded statement is one of the very most condescending and uninformed things you can possibly say to a person. You are not me. You absolutely do not know my reasons and justifications for feeling the way I do. My perspectives on many things have changed a good deal, yet this has remained constant. Nothing in this world makes me spit fire more than the old "oh, you'll change your mind when you get older *wink wink*" spiel.

ri23: if you read MY post then you will see

nyanko said:
(I mean getting pregnant while in school/JUST out of school, not going after you have kids or establishing a career and then taking a break for kids)
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sofficat and nyanko I get your point and I can't say I haven't felt that way too. I see a lot of vets who have gone through all those years of school only to reduce their career to a hobby because children become their priority. I'm not saying it's wrong but it is frustrating from the perpective of someone who would give anything to have the opportunity to work as a vet to see that.
It's a really tough position to be in because if you chose to have a biological child a woman has to take a certain amount of time off whether she wants to or not due to the physical hardships of being pregnant and recovery post-birth. I asked the doctors at work what they felt was the biggest issue in medicine today and one vet felt that because the field is 80% women we will see a shortage in veterinarians because many will take an abscence from the field to raise a family. I wish I could say men and women are really equal but biology says otherwise.
In my particular case, my career is so important to me that although my husband and I would like to have 1 biological child, I will choose vet medicine over that. Like twelvetigers I plan on adopting some of our children so parenthood is not over by any means. And in my case I'm extremely lucky that my husband is willing and wants to be a stay at home dad and understands that I will want to return to practice almost immediately. I'm not a stay at home and raise the kids kind of girl but despite this balancing a family and fulfilling my career goals is going to get very complicated. I'm doing the best I can trying to figure out when in the timeline I can merge both dreams.
 
nyanko said:
You know, I feel like that bolded statement is one of the very most condescending and uninformed things you can possibly say to a person. You are not me. You absolutely do not know my reasons and justifications for feeling the way I do. My perspectives on many things have changed a good deal, yet this has remained constant. Nothing in this world makes me spit fire more than the old "oh, you'll change your mind when you get older *wink wink*" spiel.

ri23: if you read MY post then you will see
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That actually was not meant to be condescending, my apologies if it was. I was not assuming to know your life history (but I will assume you have gotten that statement in the past since it seemed to hit a nerve). I was actually attempting to relate to your opinion from a personal level, saying that I understand it from both sides.
 
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LucyLoo - A lot of us get comments like that all the time. Frustrating, because when there's people who aren't being condescending about it bring it up, there tends to be some snapping... it most definitely hits a nerve, even when mentioned in passing.
 
Kids aren't always planned either....

I had my daughter in undergrad..that was hard enough. There's plenty of girls pregnant at my school and I can't imagine doing it in vet school...but hey..more power to them if they can.

I never wanted kids...but now I have the most beautiful daughter in the world and I love her more than anything. She's a smart cookie, too...she loves looking at all my path slides with me. 🙂

To each their own...and if you know what you want, then I don't see why it's impossible. You just might have to work a little harder.
 
Starwrecker said:
I never wanted kids...but now I have the most beautiful daughter in the world and I love her more than anything. She's a smart cookie, too...she loves looking at all my path slides with me. 🙂

To each their own...and if you know what you want, then I don't see why it's impossible. You just might have to work a little harder.
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I absolutely agree with the notion that it is not my place or business to tell somebody what they should or shouldn't do - but I was just offering up my own opinion, since it's a perspective that differs from the majority on this issue.

And not to be crude, but having a kid is always a choice. Whether it's planned or not, there are options in this country (part of the reason I am happy to be here!).
 
This is an interesting thread. Thank you to the person who posted the orginal question. 🙂

I just want to second the thought that women have to make hard choices regarding family vs. career. I got married before I started my last year of undergrad, and after graduation my husband and I decided to have a baby. At that point, I was not yet seriously considering vet school. I was working part time, so it seemed like as good a time as any to have a baby.

Pregnancies are not always easy. I had terrible morning sickness for the first six months of my pregnancy. I actually lost weight in my first trimester due to the fact that I could eat very little, and most of that did not stay down. I had to call in sick several times because there were days I couldn't get off the couch. But I was lucky...a few of my friends have had to be put on bed rest because of threatened miscarriages or pre-term labor. Imagine months of only being allowed to get out of bed or off the couch to use the bathroom and/or take a shower.

Anyway, I started feeling better just in time to be miserable during my last trimester. Aches, pains, not being able to draw a full breath...I also had elevated blood pressure the last month of my pregnancy and had to take things very easy so that I didn't start crossing over into pre-eclampsia. The last week before my due date, I could not work at all.

I couldn't imagine trying to deal with all of that while going through vet school. I imagine your success in vet school depends on your attendance and focus on the material you are learning. All of my focus at the end was on the impending arrival of my baby. And trying to stay as comfortable as possible.

After my son was born, all of my priorities instantly shifted. He is my number one priority, with my husband being a close second. I know not all women are like that, but for me my family does come first. So now all of my career goals are made with that in mind. We would like to have another child (or maybe two or three more), and now that I know how challenging pregnancy and the first year of a baby's life can be, I know I'll either need to be done having children before I try for vet school, or else wait until I'm through and have established myself before having another baby. The last option doesn't sound as appealing to me, however, because it was very difficult for me to leave my son and go back to work when he was a tiny baby. And honestly, if you take a couple of years off to have babies, how do you then pay the student loans? And when you want to go back to work, how hard will you have to work to get yourself current in vet med again?

So that's just my personal experience, as a woman and a mom who is not even sure yet about pursing vet school. But I am enjoying reading others' perspective on this topic. 🙂
 
I have a feeling that a big part of the salary discrepancy between males and females in vet med is because of this issue. An employer is looking at hiring a new grad. They have two equally qualified candidates, same age, one male and one female. Is the female vet going to want to get pregnant and go on maternity leave within a few years of being hired? Is she going to be more likely to ask for time off/flex scheduling for childcare? Is she going to want to buy into the practice at some point, or does she want to remain an employee, and have less responsibility? I read an article a little bit ago that was talking about how a lot of the large corporations are thriving, because of this. Vet moms are preferring to work for a place like Banfield, where they have less responsibility, fewer hours and more time off, as opposed to the amount of time and dedication it takes to own their own practices. I know its a mean prejudice to have to face when looking for a job, but the stigma is there because it happens. And it sucks for those of us women who do want to put our careers first to have to face that scrutiny, when we won't be abandoning ship to raise kids.

The vet I work for decided she wanted the best of both worlds. She graduated, bought into her own clinic, and had her sons in her mid-to-late-thirties. She's told me that instead of taking time off when they were infants, she would take them into work with her, and make them beds in the cages, while she worked. Said it was the most exhausting thing she's ever done.

LucyLoo said:
Are you a man by chance? I don't say this to be judgmental, it's just that many men don't appreciate the choices a woman is forced to make. A lot of women have to find some way to balance wanting a great career and having a baby before the risks of genetic defects starts to rise. What she described above is what I hear from a lot of 20-somethings. I'm in my early 30's and can appreciate the bind that she is in. Women have to make hard decisions when career meets genetics.
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cozycleo said:
I hate to generalize, but men rarely have to ask themselves how they're going to balance family and career. I know it's definitely not a factor in my husband's career decisions, nor of any man I've ever known.
Click to expand...

Maybe a big part of this is (generalizing here,) is because most guys don't seem to feel as big of a need to have kids? Most guys I know are pretty ambivalent, but will have kids because their SO wants them, not so much because they themselves want kids. Whereas women are more likely to think they neeed baaabies.

LucyLoo said:
And I am NOT saying everyone will change their mind, just that our perspectives can change with experience as we age. Sometimes more than you can anticipate.
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When I saw this thread yesterday, I knew it was going to get bingo'd.
 
LucyLoo
..... I am also aware that having a baby is not a priority or even desired for every woman. I actually had feelings similar to yours when I was in my mid-20's but as I've gotten older I have begun to look at things differently. And I am NOT saying everyone will change their mind, just that our perspectives can change with experience as we age....
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Nyako:
You know, I feel like that bolded statement is one of the very most condescending and uninformed things you can possibly say to a person. You are not me. You absolutely do not know my reasons and justifications for feeling the way I do. My perspectives on many things have changed a good deal, yet this has remained constant. Nothing in this world makes me spit fire more than the old "oh, you'll change your mind when you get older *wink wink*" spiel.
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This exchange is so bizarre. I totally don't get how Lucyloo's statement is condescending or uninformed. It's not like she said : oh you're only in your 20s but someday you'll change your mind. She simply provided her own experience. I wouldn't apologize if I were you Lucyloo - she got seriously worked up over nothing. (sort of like the way people freaked out at Nyanko for her IMO reasonable observation about someones GPA last year...I guess what goes around comes around)
 
TrocarKarin said:
I have a feeling that a big part of the salary discrepancy between males and females in vet med is because of this issue. An employer is looking at hiring a new grad. They have two equally qualified candidates, same age, one male and one female. Is the female vet going to want to get pregnant and go on maternity leave within a few years of being hired? Is she going to be more likely to ask for time off/flex scheduling for childcare? Is she going to want to buy into the practice at some point, or does she want to remain an employee, and have less responsibility? I read an article a little bit ago that was talking about how a lot of the large corporations are thriving, because of this. Vet moms are preferring to work for a place like Banfield, where they have less responsibility, fewer hours and more time off, as opposed to the amount of time and dedication it takes to own their own practices. I know its a mean prejudice to have to face when looking for a job, but the stigma is there because it happens. And it sucks for those of us women who do want to put our careers first to have to face that scrutiny, when we won't be abandoning ship to raise kids.

The vet I work for decided she wanted the best of both worlds. She graduated, bought into her own clinic, and had her sons in her mid-to-late-thirties. She's told me that instead of taking time off when they were infants, she would take them into work with her, and make them beds in the cages, while she worked. Said it was the most exhausting thing she's ever done.





Maybe a big part of this is (generalizing here,) is because most guys don't seem to feel as big of a need to have kids? Most guys I know are pretty ambivalent, but will have kids because their SO wants them, not so much because they themselves want kids. Whereas women are more likely to think they neeed baaabies.
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I think that may be some of it, but I also think they don't really have to think about it because first, they don't have to carry the child, and second, they can have babies until they are old and gray.
 
sambone said:
LucyLoo

Nyako:

This exchange is so bizarre. I totally don't get how Lucyloo's statement is condescending or uninformed. It's not like she said : oh you're only in your 20s but someday you'll change your mind. She simply provided her own experience. I wouldn't apologize if I were you Lucyloo - she got seriously worked up over nothing. (sort of like the way people freaked out at Nyanko for her IMO reasonable observation about someones GPA last year...I guess what goes around comes around)
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Thanks for that Sambone, but as they say perception is reality and I thought it best to try and keep the debate civil. I've seen way too many threads on sensitive subjects get really nasty. But I've found all of the different viewpoints very interesting.
 
nyanko said:
And not to be crude, but having a kid is always a choice. Whether it's planned or not, there are options in this country (part of the reason I am happy to be here!).
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I just said she was unplanned. Obviously I chose to have her. For some people the alternative isn't an option, whether it be religious reasons or personal.

Unplanned or not she is the best thing that has happened to me.
 
CatVet2Be said:
sofficat and nyanko I get your point and I can't say I haven't felt that way too. I see a lot of vets who have gone through all those years of school only to reduce their career to a hobby because children become their priority. I'm not saying it's wrong but it is frustrating from the perpective of someone who would give anything to have the opportunity to work as a vet to see that.
It's a really tough position to be in because if you chose to have a biological child a woman has to take a certain amount of time off whether she wants to or not due to the physical hardships of being pregnant and recovery post-birth. I asked the doctors at work what they felt was the biggest issue in medicine today and one vet felt that because the field is 80% women we will see a shortage in veterinarians because many will take an abscence from the field to raise a family. I wish I could say men and women are really equal but biology says otherwise.
In my particular case, my career is so important to me that although my husband and I would like to have 1 biological child, I will choose vet medicine over that. Like twelvetigers I plan on adopting some of our children so parenthood is not over by any means. And in my case I'm extremely lucky that my husband is willing and wants to be a stay at home dad and understands that I will want to return to practice almost immediately. I'm not a stay at home and raise the kids kind of girl but despite this balancing a family and fulfilling my career goals is going to get very complicated. I'm doing the best I can trying to figure out when in the timeline I can merge both dreams.
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FYI- I'm a 23 yr old female. I think the bolded part sums it up nicely. I know quite a few seniors who are graduating this year and are pregnant. It just seems like a waste of schooling when your priorities are going to shift even before you graduate. Not saying it's bad to shift them ever, I'm just saying than when I graduate I am going to want to be a full time vet, not a full time mom.
I never implied you can't have both... I know many vets who are full time mom and vet, but that's just something I don't want to be right out of school.
 
TrocarKarin said:
she would take them into work with her, and make them beds in the cages, while she worked.
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:laugh:OMG I love this. I can just picture sticking my kids in the ICU ward so I can keep an eye on them but still close the soundproof door. I always joke that I'm afraid I'll try to raise my kids like I do my dog, if they're bad I'll be tempted to tell them to "go kennel".....
 
LucyLoo said:
Thanks for that Sambone, but as they say perception is reality and I thought it best to try and keep the debate civil. I've seen way too many threads on sensitive subjects get really nasty. But I've found all of the different viewpoints very interesting.
Click to expand...

And since I don't feel like studying, I'll throw my own 2 cents in 🙂

I don't ever want to have children. Ever. Period. From my viewpoint, I don't understand how others want to have children at all, let alone permanently/temporarily drop a dream career for it. And with the debt we're getting into, I don't know that it's a financially viable idea. But that's just me.

I do however, recognize that there will be an increased number of vets on maternity leave. I love to travel and would like to cover maternity leave at various clinics around the country eventually. It's a win/win situation. They get maternity leave, I get a chance to travel about and have time off between jobs.

And for what it's worth, the people in our class with kids all seem to be doing just fine.
 
Starwrecker said:
I just said she was unplanned. Obviously I chose to have her. For some people the alternative isn't an option, whether it be religious reasons or personal.

Unplanned or not she is the best thing that has happened to me.
Click to expand...

There isn't only one alternative, hence the pluralization. Adoption is always one too, isn't it?

And I wasn't trying to berate you or your kid or anything in any way, just stating that an unplanned pregnancy does not automatically mean a kid.

sambone:

I don't know you, so I'm not sure if you are aware of the way that some women relate to other women, especially those younger than them, who state in the proper context that they aren't interested in having children. The whole general idea of "You'll change your mind when you get older/meet the right person/your 'biological clock' starts ticking/whatever" is very pervasive in these sorts of interactions. This idea is very insulting to the person being addressed, as if she is somehow less mature and unable to make such a decision, or there's some problem with the relationship she's currently in (if she's in one), or that her brain and logic will eventually be overcome by her hormones one day. Just so that there's some context for my reaction...

Now, I don't know Lucy, and she stated something that is very, very commonly said in such interactions as I described above. I did not really mean to insinuate that such a thing was exactly her intent, just that a statement being made like that is usually inclusive to a theme that really raises my hackles.

Even many OB/GYNs won't listen and exhibit the condescension that I described above at a lot of times, when refusing to perform a tubal ligation on a woman who hasn't had kids yet or is under an arbitrary age. It's a very real issue and an emotive topic.
 
nyanko said:
I don't know you, so I'm not sure if you are aware of the way that some women relate to other women, especially those younger than them, who state in the proper context that they aren't interested in having children. The whole general idea of "You'll change your mind when you get older/meet the right person/your 'biological clock' starts ticking/whatever" is very pervasive in these sorts of interactions. This idea is very insulting to the person being addressed, as if she is somehow less mature and unable to make such a decision, or there's some problem with the relationship she's currently in (if she's in one), or that her brain and logic will eventually be overcome by her hormones one day. Just so that there's some context for my reaction...

Now, I don't know Lucy, and she stated something that is very, very commonly said in such interactions as I described above. I did not really mean to insinuate that such a thing was exactly her intent, just that a statement being made like that is usually inclusive to a theme that really raises my hackles.

Even many OB/GYNs won't listen and exhibit the condescension that I described above at a lot of times, when refusing to perform a tubal ligation on a woman who hasn't had kids yet or is under an arbitrary age. It's a very real issue and an emotive topic.
Click to expand...

Thank you for raising that point. I very much agree. As someone who does not want to have kids, I get a lot of "Oh, well you're too young to decide, wait till you're married, you'll change your mind" Or some very odd looks, like having a child is a necessary part of being female. I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that I do not want to have children and do find it annoying when people find my personal choice to be defective, or that I'm not mature enough to decide.

I looked into tubal ligation when I was 23 and still had health insurance. I got a lot of static even though I was in a more liberal part of the country. No one would do it. It really bothers me how young women are comdemned for having an abortion, yet it's also taboo for a young woman to have tubal ligation (which could have prevented an abortion in the first place).
 
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nyanko said:
I don't know you, so I'm not sure if you are aware of the way that some women relate to other women, especially those younger than them, who state in the proper context that they aren't interested in having children. The whole general idea of "You'll change your mind when you get older/meet the right person/your 'biological clock' starts ticking/whatever" is very pervasive in these sorts of interactions. This idea is very insulting to the person being addressed, as if she is somehow less mature and unable to make such a decision, or there's some problem with the relationship she's currently in (if she's in one), or that her brain and logic will eventually be overcome by her hormones one day. Just so that there's some context for my reaction...
Click to expand...

In fact I've had peers tell me the same thing, nevermind older women.

I have a pretty low tolerance for kids personally and i have little to no desire to have one of my own. My SO is a big family person and does want them. So we settled on "maybe one someday". My whole thing is that I do not want to experience pregnancy. Ever. So if i really wanted a kid, i'd be fine with adopting. But definitely way after vet school (my SO will be attending DO school starting this summer, so we'll both be busy for the coming years, myself longer because i wont even be applying for a whiiiiiile). I'm 21 right now so i figure i have enough time to figure out what i want without anyone's advice regarding my biological clock. It really is far higher on my agenda to make something of myself than to reproduce. And i tend to be in the same boat as the folks who figure why get in such high debt, graduate after a crapload of hard work, and be ready to enter the field only to take maternity leave and not be able to devote as much of your time and ability as possible to it?

heh but my dogs are high maintenance enough to take up an awful lot of my attention and maternal instincts. I'm more than satisfied taking care of them right now 😛
 
You know, it seems like some of you have no problem passing judgement on those who want children after an expensive education but get your hackles raised mighty easily when your own beliefs are challenged. Just an observation.
 
You know, it seems like some of you have no problem passing judgement on those who want children after an expensive education but get your hackles raised mighty easily when your own beliefs are challenged. Just an observation.
Click to expand...

I agree.
 
LucyLoo said:
You know, it seems like some of you have no problem passing judgement on those who want children after an expensive education but get your hackles raised mighty easily when your own beliefs are challenged. Just an observation.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure that the raised hackles come from constantly having to defend personal values when the topic of children comes up. Wanting kids is generally seen as "normal and proper" and if you dont want them people tend to either not take you seriously or try to convert you. Which sounds like another recent thread 🙄

I personally am not passing judgment on any particular person who wants kids while in vet school, or soon after. I find the concept in general very impractical. But in fact I'd look up to the people who are able to manage vet school and kids, or the beginning of their career and kids. It sounds like an immense job, and i respect those who succeed at managing it all. I am pretty sure i couldn't do it.
 
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LucyLoo said:
You know, it seems like some of you have no problem passing judgement on those who want children after an expensive education but get your hackles raised mighty easily when your own beliefs are challenged. Just an observation.
Click to expand...

The difference for me is that I'm stating a personal opinion (which I even admitted is a fringe view), not trying to tell somebody else how they should be feeling or how they will feel in the future. Everyone is judged and judges others - that's kind of the social dynamic that society has set up.

Here's how I see it, and I'm not addressing this towards anyone here...

I don't insinuate that you'll change your mind later and start hating your kid, so don't insinuate that I'll change my mind later and start wanting them.
 
nyanko said:
The difference for me is that I'm stating a personal opinion (which I even admitted is a fringe view), not trying to tell somebody else how they should be feeling or how they will feel in the future. Everyone is judged and judges others - that's kind of the social dynamic that society has set up.

Here's how I see it, and I'm not addressing this towards anyone here...

I don't insinuate that you'll change your mind later and start hating your kid, so don't insinuate that I'll change my mind later and start wanting them.
Click to expand...

I wasn't aware anybody had done that...
 
Groominator said:
I'm pretty sure that the raised hackles come from constantly having to defend personal values when the topic of children comes up. Wanting kids is generally seen as "normal and proper" and if you dont want them people tend to either not take you seriously or try to convert you. Which sounds like another recent thread 🙄

I personally am not passing judgment on any particular person who wants kids while in vet school, or soon after. I find the concept in general very impractical. But in fact I'd look up to the people who are able to manage vet school and kids, or the beginning of their career and kids. It sounds like an immense job, and i respect those who succeed at managing it all. I am pretty sure i couldn't do it.
Click to expand...

Well said. I ditto that.
 
lailanni said:
I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that I do not want to have children and do find it annoying when people find my personal choice to be defective, or that I'm not mature enough to decide.
Click to expand...


Just an observation...does anyone really know anything beyond a shadow of doubt? At any age? I'm not sure. I'm not saying you'll change your mind about kids (I could have and would have made my observation about any statement someone made that definitively). I'm also not saying that it's appropriate for a doctor to refuse to perform a tubal ligation on you if you want the procedure, are of the age to make those decision for yourself (18), of sound mind, etc. That should be your decision, like all other decisions about your life, health, body, etc.

I just don't really think that anyone knows anything beyond a shadow of a doubt.
 
^^^^^^ what does it matter? She knows right now to that extent that she doesn't want kids, so just let it go! That just seems like arguing semantics...

LucyLoo said:
I wasn't aware anybody had done that...
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I'd bold this, but it's already bolded. 😕

nyanko said:
Here's how I see it, and I'm not addressing this towards anyone here...
Click to expand...

And I do agree with Groominator as well - people who are able to handle vet school/grad school without special accomodations while being pregnant and having kids have all of my respect.
 
VAgirl said:
Just an observation...does anyone really know anything beyond a shadow of doubt? At any age? I'm not sure. I'm not saying you'll change your mind about kids (I could have and would have made my observation about any statement someone made that definitively). I'm also not saying that it's appropriate for a doctor to refuse to perform a tubal ligation on you if you want the procedure, are of the age to make those decision for yourself (18), of sound mind, etc. That should be your decision, like all other decisions about your life, health, body, etc.

I just don't really think that anyone knows anything beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Click to expand...

Good point. But in my mind I can't possibly fathom any time at all, under any circumstance, ever, that I would want to have a child. Unless there was some catastrophic worldwide event and I was the only one who could restart the human population 😉 Beyond a shadow of a doubt is some strong language, but it is something I feel strongly about.
 
I fully respect that many of you don't want children. That is your decision alone and I have no right to pass any judgement or try and change your mind.

But, on the other side of the coin, who says we can't be both? For those of us who do want to be a veterinarian and a parent, we would like the same respect.
 
rachroo said:
But, on the other side of the coin, who says we can't be both?
Click to expand...

You can totally do both. Job sharing is becoming increasingly more common - two vets sharing the workload of one full time vet. You can have time with family and still work a great job. And if you need time off for materinty leave, future relief vets like me will be around to help 😉
 
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