vet school with a family?

[nyanko]

But, on the other side of the coin, who says we can't be both? For those of us who do want to be a veterinarian and a parent, we would like the same respect.

I'm grateful for people who want to reproduce (especially the sort of determined, intelligent people who are attracted to vet school) because it takes pressure off of me.

Especially people in my family. My cousins keep having kids and so my grandma doesn't bother me about it. It's excellent.

Lastly, society obviously respects parents and the family as an institution - it's such a huge issue politically and socially in this country that it goes a little overboard in my opinion. I don't really think that there's any lack of respect there by any measure.

I really didn't want to turn this into such a melee - I'm quite the advocate of letting others do whatever they want as long as I am not affected to the adverse for it. I was simply voicing my own opinion, nothing more and nothing less.

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[LucyLoo]

^^^^^^ what does it matter? She knows right now to that extent that she doesn't want kids, so just let it go! That just seems like arguing semantics...



I'd bold this, but it's already bolded.



And I do agree with Groominator as well - people who are able to handle vet school/grad school without special accomodations while being pregnant and having kids have all of my respect.

Then you need to go back and read the sentence before it and after it becasue I think I've made it abundantly clear that I wasn't trying to 'convert' you

 

[nyanko]

Then you need to go back and read the sentence before it and after it becasue I think I've made it abundantly clear that I wasn't trying to 'convert' you

And I made it abundantly clear that I was not addressing anyone here with that statement and that I didn't mean to insinuate that you were!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm pretty sure we're going around in circles saying the same thing over and over again to each other, which ceased to be productive before the first time it happened.

Can we leave it at the fact that it is awesome that women today have the latitude to be able to make these sorts of reproductive and career choices for ourselves rather than being little more than property of a husband as it used to be? I think that's something that all of us can agree upon...

 

[LucyLoo]

Well, I don't know, there is so much bolding going on it's getting hard to tell which bolding I am supposed to refer to

But yes, I think we can agree on the last statement.

 

[autumnmuse]

See this is why I had kids first. I wanted them while I was still young so that when they grew up and moved out I'd still be young enough to do something else with my life. Also, I was specifically afraid of the whole, 'work super hard for an early degree then have kids and put your career on hold till they grow up at which time it's completely obsolete and you practically have to start over'.

Originally I was planning to wait until they were school age themselves to go to school, but I hadn't realized I'd pick such a long journey for myself.

I am one of those women who are non-functional when pregnant. I fought hard, but medical issues took over despite my best efforts. I had hyper-emesis on all three pregnancies - which is where you throw up uncontrollably, dozens of times a day, every single day of the pregnancy. Drugs helped some, but I was still hospitalized for parts of my pregnancies, and on IVs for many weeks. I also had preeclampsia, which meant months of bedrest each time. And I developed a blood clot which led to several emergency room visits out of pulmonary embolism scares. Then I was allergic to the blood thinners and had a huge problem with allergic reactions for months.

There was NO FREAKING WAY that I could attempt to work or go to school while I was pregnant. I envy women without health problems, but I have learned to accept the things I cannot change, and I like to think it makes me even more grateful for the children I have. I worked super hard for them just to survive.

 

[Emio]

See this is why I had kids first. I wanted them while I was still young so that when they grew up and moved out I'd still be young enough to do something else with my life. Also, I was specifically afraid of the whole, 'work super hard for an early degree then have kids and put your career on hold till they grow up at which time it's completely obsolete and you practically have to start over'.

Originally I was planning to wait until they were school age themselves to go to school, but I hadn't realized I'd pick such a long journey for myself.

I am one of those women who are non-functional when pregnant. I fought hard, but medical issues took over despite my best efforts. I had hyper-emesis on all three pregnancies - which is where you throw up uncontrollably, dozens of times a day, every single day of the pregnancy. Drugs helped some, but I was still hospitalized for parts of my pregnancies, and on IVs for many weeks. I also had preeclampsia, which meant months of bedrest each time. And I developed a blood clot which led to several emergency room visits out of pulmonary embolism scares. Then I was allergic to the blood thinners and had a huge problem with allergic reactions for months.

There was NO FREAKING WAY that I could attempt to work or go to school while I was pregnant. I envy women without health problems, but I have learned to accept the things I cannot change, and I like to think it makes me even more grateful for the children I have. I worked super hard for them just to survive.

holy smokes. now i know why hospital pamphlets put "Pregnancy and Other Diseases" all under one category.

i'll stay childless too, thanks.

 

[Truth74]

I'm all for the "do it before you go for the career" route. That's what I did. I wasn't that ill when I carried my 3, but after the birth I wasn't so great.

2 out of 3 of my kids were larger than expected (around 9 and close to 10 lbs *ow*), which required me to have surgery for one and a cane for the other. I was definitely not bouncing back into school for either of those. I also didn't want to get right back into college, because I wanted to breast feed and be my kids' first teacher. I wanted to invest the majority of my time when they were younger, so they would have a good foundation.

Even with a healthy pregnancy the birth can take you out for a number of weeks. For me it was about 4 months with my last one, because of a pinched sciatic nerve.

As for the other stuff, it is all about individual choices. Individual choices that we will live with. Let's not give some anonymous person on a message board the responsibility for your life decisions. Ultimately, it is up to you.

 

[hopefulvet21]

good discussion!

 

[Mylez]

I agree with others on here about not wanting kids...ever.

I also agree about how doctors have no right to tell you "You'll change your mind" about it eventually. I have a debilitating, painful disease that cannot be managed even on birth control. I'd much rather have a hysterectomy. Guess what the doctor says?

Well...stay on the meds...and when you're older and you've had kids, then we can take it out. WHAT!?!?!

She would pick my ability to have kids over my personal comfort/happiness?

I've also been privy to the "Oh...you'll change your mind later." Uh-huh. NOT gonna happen.

But on another note, I don't think having kids the last year of vet school is a good idea. We hired a new grad who did this and she quit within a month of having her baby because she couldn't handle being away from him. (Yes, even for a fifteen minute exam). This was even with the practice manager letting her bring the baby in, techs offering to help carry him around, etc.

If you do have a kid, be very prepared for it to change your life and outlook. Before she had the baby (and while pregnant) she always insisted she'd continue on in vet med. Now she hardly works at all...and hopes to get back into vet med in ten years when her kids are in school.

I agree with other folks...it is a waste of your degree and time invested. (She is easily $200,000 in debt). Because, honestly, how can you manage to keep up when you now have other priorities at home? Being a parent is often a full time job.

If you can have kids, juggle a career, and be successful, more power to you! I don't know *how* you could, but, wow! I have a few classmates who have kids and they seem to do just as well as everyone else, but I am sure having a strong partner at home helps.

With that said, the vet I worked for had a kid, is a single mom sharing custody, and has done *amazingly* well raising a well-balanced, intelligent, and cute kid. To this day I am impressed with how she manages to get along (sole practice owner and often sole vet too!) but I know it is very hard on her.

 

[Jochebed]

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[Starwrecker]

Jochebad, bravo!

Thank you for saying that. I like to think that I'm also investing in my daughter's future by continuing my education so that I can get a good job in order to support her. Not to mention trying to be a role model and showing her how great education is. I give high props to stay at home moms, but I can't imagine staying at home when there is so much that I'm interested in and want to learn. I don't look down at them, though...so before I get flamed, don't think I meant that.

 

[Jochebed]

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[GellaBella]

Thank you Jochebad!

I've been trying to find the proper way to word a response and I think you have hit the nail on the head.

I just turned 26 years old and am about 6 months from finishing up my PhD after which I am hoping to go to veterinary school. I think I'm fairly smart and well educated and I absolutely have every intention of having children someday and hopefully in the not too distant future.

To say that having children is a waste of an education is ridiculous. With that sentiment we should just go to college to find a husband, nevermind what you become educated in, you're just going to waste it on having children someday anyways.

My mother has her PhD and she had 4 kids. I think its absolutely possible to balance both.

I also find it offensive to say that women with children/planning on having children in vet school are taking spots away from other women who don't want to have children and would have more time to devote to veterinary medicine otherwise. aka women who 'want it more'. To me this just seems like a scapegoat. If a woman with a family can get accepted to vet school while juggling kids, prereqs, and gaining animal experience or can handle children and having kids while in vet school then how can you say she is taking away another persons spot. she obviously has earned it and has learned how to manage her time effectively.

Anyways, I'm done ranting. If you do not want to have children I absolutely respect your opinion to do so. Children are not for every person and having children shouldn't define you as a woman. But just because some women would like to have children someday does not mean that they are being irresponsible and wasting peoples time and money. I think it just means they are willing to work that much harder to make it work in the small amount of time available for these sorts of things.

phew!

 

[Starwrecker]

Oh I would stay home in a heartbeat if/when my husband and I can afford it. I just don't want to be judged for my decision if and when I do so. There's been a lot of deserved complaining about being judged for deciding NOT to have children...and then it's followed by judging those of us that DO want to have children. It's my life, my money, my career, my family, my decisions. Just felt like evening things out a bit if I could.

I'm sure I'll reach a point after school when I'd love to stay home, especially if we decide to have more children. (Heck, most days right now I'd give anything to stay home with my daughter...this semester is killing me ). She'll be school age by the time I graduate...so I guess I won't really have an 'excuse' to stay home...unless, like I said, we decide to have more.

Props on wanting to homeschool...I love the idea, but don't feel that I'll be able to pull it off as successfully as I'd like.

 

[Mylez]

I did not intend for it to sound like you won't be a good vet or won't be dedicated to the field. But, believe me, the woman that I spoke of who had a kid shortly out of vet school QUIT VET MEDICINE a YEAR after she graduated to be a stay at home mom. She was quite comfortable with her decision, yet before and during the pregnancy always spoke of how dedicated to the field she was etc. etc. etc. I just don't understand why you would go through all of that torture (yep, staying up late, studying, tears, the anxiety, etc.) to give it up for a kid. Vet medicine is a field that is constantly changing. If you leave the field for a few years odds are high that you will be very behind your peers. (And yes, she does intend to come back, and yep, there's a vet shortage, she'll get a job - but - in all honesty she will likely be more than a few steps behind the new grads when she re-enters the field).

Not at all saying everyone does or even that most people do.

I'm also not saying this is you, but truth of the matter is that it could be you. It is something to consider. Get the point?

But I also want to add that when I go into practice I want to have the exact same treatment as my partners in practice do even if I don't have kids. Late nights? Don't stick the girl who doesn't have kids with them just because she doesn't have kids. Discrimination much? Holidays? Who says I don't want Christmas off every now and again too? (Don't say this doesn't happen, it does, I have seen favoritism given to those who have families, because clearly those who don't have kids have the time to be there).


Being able to have kids and balance a career is becoming more and more available and likely in many practices. But it is not in other practices.

I think wanting to have kids is a great thing. (Definitely not for me). But I do feel it is very, very difficult and will make your career in veterinary medicine more challenging. I am NOT attacking you, just stating what I have seen in practice and at school.

I think it would be pretty crappy of adcoms to say you can't go to vet school unless you're sterilized.

At the same point, I also know of veterinarians who would much rather hire men (or older women more established in the career) because they do not want to have a new grad or young woman quit on them because of a baby.

Of course, I come from a rural background where vets are scarce and they can't really afford to give you lots of maternity leave and so on. There are not enough vets to cover for you when you are gone. We did everything we could to make this new mother feel good about staying at the clinic and being a mom (including part time work, appointments only, etc.) and she just couldn't handle it.

It's interesting, but perhaps not surprising that I've been attacked throughout my life for not supporting folks who want to have children. And I am sorry that people feel that way about my opinion. It is something I feel that you can do with a career in vet medicine, but I don't think it's something you should do and think that it is not going to change you, your priorities, or where you will wind up. (Again, it might not...but you have to accept that it MIGHT!)

Ok...done for now.

 

[Jochebed]

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[runnerDC]

I think the point made earlier, which bears repeating, was about being able to respect other people’s decisions despite not necessarily understanding them or having any intention of choosing them yourself.

I think what I am having trouble stomaching as I read this discussion is the tone being used by some of those who have adamantly voiced their preference to never have children. I respect your decision, even though it is admittedly not congruent with my own, but I am failing to see a mutual extension of respect for those who are not doing as you are choosing to do.

So my point is: many decisions in life are not going to be for all of us to understand. But at the very least, we can respect them.

 

[Jochebed]

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[Mylez]

Jochebed....what you don't seem to get (and keep bristling over) is that the two ARE incompatible. When you are practicing medicine you can't be tending your children and vice versa - it totally can be done but, in all honesty, you have to have a really strong and supportive partner. (Or I guess really good daycare).

If I bring in a dog to have a laceration repair done on its paw, I expect my veterinarian to give me the full attention I am paying for. (Not tending their kid, telling them to go back to the office, etc.)

It's that simple. An opinion was asked for and I gave it. You can't be a vet and a mother at the same time - one has to come first. And this is a field where your patients have to come first or you are not doing your job. Perhaps that's just an opinion, but it is mine nonetheless.

And, yeah, to me, you're wasting your education if you have kids and quit the field. Why bother suffering through it, if you don't practice vet med? IT IS A WASTE!

I'm not saying it is a waste of your time right now. That's hardly the case! You know what you want to do, you're pursuing it, and looking toward a career in vet medicine. You can have kids and do vet medicine. This is clearly what you want to do and props to you for going after it. But, to me, if you have children and quit the vet field (especially only a few years out of vet school, you WASTED YOUR DEGREE).

I expect to continue to be chastized for my decision to not have children by friends and family members and be told that I will change my mind when I am older. That is very much a part of my family dynamics (women get married and have kids!!! DUH!)

Again, I respect your decision to have kids. Nowhere have I told you NOT to have kids. But, yeah, I do feel (and this is my opinion) that having kids and quitting the field of vet medicine a few years into it (like, say, 2-3) is a waste of your degree. This is an opinion. You don't have to like or accept it.

I know this is not an easy decision for anyone to make. People want it all. But a lot of times you can't have it all and you have to accept that.

*Throws a match on all of the gasoline she just dumped* Let the flaming begin!

 

[StealthDog]

One interesting point that I haven't seen raised yet is the issue of having a publicly-subsidized education. Most of us are attending state schools, and if you get in-state tuition, your education is heavily subsidized by state funding. The expectation is that, by investing in you as a student, the state is getting a public good by creating a veterinarian who will hopefully stay in the area. If you get your veterinary education, work for a year or two, then leave the profession to raise a family, the state's investment didn't really pay out (assuming you never return, or return at a very reduced level). This is the same reason that schools hate to have students fail out- they invested a lot of taxpayer money in your seat, but they didn't get a vet out of it.

Not saying I agree or disagree, but it highlights that there are more people invested in your education than just yourself.

 

[cozycleo]

Thanks everyone for their thoughts. I knew I'd be opening a can of worms here.

I personally don't feel education is ever a waste, regardless of what you end up doing with it. However, I would agree that if you're going to spend 100K+ on an education, you probably want to be really sure that you're going to use it. No, I cannot honestly say that I wouldn't decide I only want to work part time after having a child, but I can say I am fairly certain I will be working full time. I have always worked full time, and I have always wanted to work full time. I don't see that changing.

Maybe I could have done the baby thing sooner, but it wasn't a good time for us. So now my choice is what to do now and going forward. I won't spend a lot of time on coulda, woulda, shouldas.

Anyway, while I respect the opinions of those who never want children, I just can't believe that it's a one way street where you either have the kids or you have the job. Maybe it is true these days that women do want it all, but as a previous poster said, at least we have that choice now. If we're willing to work hard, what's to stop us?

I don't even have the intention of working in private practice at this time, so I'm not sure how my future decisions will affect future coworkers, but I'm not going to base all of my decisions on what may or may not happen. But I get not wanting to be stuck working holidays because you "don't have a family," as I have been dealing with that for years as well.

Good discussion though. I do respect everyone's opinions on the subject, whether I agree or not. It is a lot to think about.

Edited to add: I do hate the assumption though that just because someone is having a family along with their career, that they will just dump everything they worked for to raise their kids. That's a broad assumption. Human doctors can manage kids, so why can't vets?

 

[Jochebed]

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[Mylez]

It is an assumption (dumping a career for kids)...and I wholeheartedly agree that it is not always the case.

I guess those of us who want to be child-free get so defensive because for a woman, we are in the minority. And those of you who DO want kids in this field get your hackles up, because, likely you are in the minority in this field. (Again, generalization, yadda yadda yadda).

I have a sister who has managed to balance a successful career with having a baby and a decent family. Don't believe that she hasn't had to make sacrifices though. Her husband works nights, she works days (they don't believe in having daycare raise their kid). She is very motivated by her career, and cannot imagine staying at home with her kid, DESPITE being very, very dedicated to him. (On the flip side, her husband is very dedicated to the kid, more of a stay at home dad if you will).

She is doing both. But I know it is hard on them. She hardly sees her husband and vice versa. But they are doing what they want to - she is pursuing her career and they are raising their kid and doing a fine job. So, yes! It can happen!

I'm sorry if people feel like I'm being a witch...it's just something I am very passionate about. And I also feel that, really, should you have kids if you aren't going to be around to raise them? It's kind of like getting a pet...should you get one if you can't be there to take care of it?

 

[Jochebed]

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[Mylez]

Jochebed...I think we're failing to come together at this point.

I absolutely feel that if you have children they should be your priority. There is not doubt about that to me - and I am not saying that you should stay in the field of vet medicine over your kid.

Re: laceration on the paw - talking about having your kids at the practice with you (yeah, it DOES happen!) and ignoring your client or having a lower level of care because of it. If you have a stay at home father/good babysitter/grandparent that's a different story entirely.

I do think having kids and raising them well is more important than your career. I guess that is why I feel strongly that the two are incompatible.

 

[rachroo]

We're going around and around and around....

 

[Jochebed]

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[Jochebed]

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[Mylez]

LOL...most vet students probably shouldn't have pets, but they sure make my life better!

Sorry you got the impression that I feel it's a woman's job to raise the kids. Nope, not at all. I feel very strongly that there should be a partnership if that decision is made. If I ever did decide to have kids (again, not likely to happen) I would totally want someone who would stay at home with them and/or rotate duties depending on the situation.

Ah, agree to disagree. Haha...two vet students during finals week. Never a good time.

 

[Jochebed]

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[Jochebed]

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[DVMorBust]

I do admit that it is surprising to read that you have such strong views regarding the raising of children when you have no intentions of ever having any. I never thought about a LOT of things regarding kids until I got married and knew that they would be a possibility (education, vaccination, daycare, work etc.).

I can't speak for everyone on here who doesn't want kids, but I can say that it's a decision that I've put a LOT of thought into. Granted, every step of the thought reaffirmed that having kids wasn't for me, but most people I've talked to (pre-having kids) that want kids, haven't thought about it much, and most I've talked to that don't want them have.

Granted, this is just in my personal experience, but it seems that when you're planning to have a family there's a lot of support out there and it's sort of expected by society in general, so it's easier to make that decision. A lot of my deeper thought has come after the relatives started asking for 'little ones', and I needed to defend my choice.

 

[Jochebed]

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[DVMorBust]

Ah, I didn't explain myself then. I meant that part of the thought process has been things like schooling (I wouldn't be able to homeschool, but the public education system leaves a lot to be desired), daycare (don't live near family, who would take care of them? I wouldn't be happy staying at home), how it would be juggled, vaccinations, etc.

 

[Jochebed]

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[DVMorBust]

People always look at you strange when you go against the grain

I've got some huge issues with some current parenting trends. Not only from a logical perspective, but I love my nieces/nephews/friends' kids, so there's still a personal tie to the culture.

 

[Starwrecker]

That's great that you've thought about those things though. A lot of folks having children, while it may be the "accepted" thing to do, look at you like you have a third eye in the middle of your forehead if you say that you disagree with a lot of the ways things are currently done.

What's wrong with my third eye???

 

[Jochebed]

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[StealthDog]

Eh, the state may be the ones giving me the money initially, but I'm gonna pay it back plus interest so I really don't feel all that beholden to them. They're "making money" in the venture and some of that taxpayer money is mine anyway. I signed the dotted line on the condition that I pay the money back ONLY , NOT on the condition that I MUST graduate or that I MUST practice for X years, X hours a week in X location.

No, I'm not talking about loans. There is a reason that I pay $22,000 per year for tuition and out-of-staters pay $40,000. I pay less because I'm a Minnesota resident, and the state is subsidizing my education.

 

[Jochebed]

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[nyanko]

Actually I wasn't referring simply to the decision whether or not to have children. While I recognize that your thought process appears to have taken in many other aspects (and I respect that a lot), I was talking about those other aspects - childcare/daycare, education, vaccination, diet, etc. Which, I agree, if you go along with what everyone usually does there is a LOT of support. If, however you want to question giving a perfectly healthy baby born to a perfectly healthy mother a vaccination for a sexually transmitted disease within minutes of birth...well there's more research for one to do there and a lot less support. Which is the case for my husband and I. We are quite outside of the mainstream in just about all our opinions on just about all topics...so we research a lot.

I don't know about others, but I feel that the raising of future generations is a pretty big deal, so it's important to me to educate myself on issues surrounding raising children for the societal ramifications. People often do find it humorous that an adamantly child-free commitment-phobe such as myself holds things like marriage and child-rearing in such high regard. However, it is mostly because of this high regard that I feel that those aren't appropriate options for me.

However, I do question one statement you made and if you wouldn't mind expanding on it, I'd appreciate it...

Now, I am certainly not a feminist in the current modern usage of the word and I DO believe in differing roles for husbands and wives, whether or not children are involved,

What sort of roles are you talking about here?

 

[pupsforseeing]

first off, jochebed, i think we may be long lost twins.

i am writing this as the homeschooled, non-vaccinated daughter of two healthcare professionals. i guess because i've seen it done firsthand, i think it is totally possible to successfully balance raising kids and practicing medicine. i never spent a moment in daycare, all of our family lives far away, and my parents used a babysitter only once a month for date night. my parents had a busy medical practice for most of my childhood. they were the only two doctors on staff. through the years, it averaged that one worked full-time and the other part-time, but it varied throughout the years because of different things that came up. usually one parent was at work and the other was home teaching us. occasionally they would both be needed and the kids would get dragged along to work. but, our parents had instilled in us proper behavior in that environment from the get-go so we knew to work on our schoolwork in their office, play quietly when we were finished and save our questions until they were finished with work.

my parents' decision to manage both a heavy work load and 3 kids was one that took quite a bit of sacrifice. my mom got fired from her first job out of school when she was pregnant. my parents worked their butts off to be able to afford to open their own practice so they could call the shots. but i think they did it successfully.they were great at what they did professionally and had a very successful practice to show for it. but, at the end of the day, their first priority always lied with their family.

i am dead set on vet school. but, that does not mean i don't want to have kids one day either. funny, because a year ago i would have said no way. but, i am spending this year teaching first grade at a school for the deaf and i have fallen absolutely in love with these kids. it has changed my perspective 180 degrees. i want to one day be like my parents: successfully managing both a career that i am completely devoted to and also the raising and homeschooling of my family that will be my first priority.

 

[lailanni]

Is it financially viable to leave the field entirely, for a few years, or go part time, to have kids?

Say you're an average vet student with $100,000 in debt. And lets say your partner is also in medicine, so they also average $100,000 in debt.

Then before you have kids you'll want a home to raise them in. Lets say that adds $300,000 debt (of course depending on where you live). You're already half a million in the hole here.

Then you have 2 kids. A quick google search says that you'll be paying $260,000 to raise one child to the age of 17. So for two kids, that's over $500,000.

Wait, that doesn't include college. Since you're all about education, you'd like to put down $60,000 in college funds for each child = $120,000.

So it looks like the 2 kids cost you around $600,000. And you're still in debt for the house, and your education. Now, if you want to spend time with your kids, someone will have to go part time, reducing your income.

And if you're $500,000 in debt (house and education for you and spouse), I think you may have a hard time securing the financing to buy a practice? (Not everyone wants to do that though)

So - for someone who is better with numbers than I am - is it possible to have it all? Perhaps it has been, but with the increasing debt in relation to a typical vet salary, I wonder... Physicians can do it, but they do make considerably more than DVMs.

Not trying to bash the child having type, I'm honestly curious if having the family, house, and career is financially possible in the DVM scenario.

 

[Starwrecker]

Not everyone puts money away for their kids college, so that's not a necessary expense. Some don't have spouses in medicine so the student loan debt wouldn't be quite as high.

It depends where you live and the kind of job you want to have. I know everyone says vets don't 'really' make that much money...but I've seen plenty of publications and heard plenty of talks...it is what you make of it. If you want to make $100,000+/year in practice, it is entirely possible...even in a rural large animal setting...just be prepared to work your butt off.

My vet back home in rural nowhere more or less has it all. Two kids, a supportive husband, a ranch, horses, dogs, and they raise bucking bulls. Sounds pretty successful to me. And she owns her practice.

*shrug* I think you can 'have it all'...it just takes hard work and dedication.

And pestering the government to pass the damn loan forgiveness program that some of so greatly desire...

 

[rachroo]

So - for someone who is better with numbers than I am - is it possible to have it all? Perhaps it has been, but with the increasing debt in relation to a typical vet salary, I wonder...

Not trying to bash the child having type, I'm honestly curious if having the family, house, and career is financially possible in the DVM scenario.

Yes, it can be done. I work for a vet and he is married to another vet. He works full time as one of the two owners of a SA practice.

My boss and his wife (the 2 vets) have 2 children; his wife is a stay-at-home mother until the kids are older. Like ever other vet student out there they both have (had) debt from vet school.

They own a home, horses, lots of land, and live a comfortable life. Granted not extravagant, but comfortable.

So I am here to say that it CAN be done.

 

[pressmom]

Whoa, whoa, whoa....not vaccinating! You know that only works because everyone else gets vaccinated. Also, pups, be glad you weren't in my class last year because a girl came down with mumps and she had been vaccinated. Good thing you're not a guy because it can mess with their fertility. Also, when I mentioned this to my mother just now on the phone (she had polio at age 7), she said she wouldn't allow any of her grandchildren NOT to get vaccinated against polio because she wouldn't want them to walk the difficult road she has.

Also, I happen to wholeheartedly disagree with homeschooling, but that's for another thread.

Back to the original topic. I don't know whether I want kids, but I know I want to be able to give my kids the quality of life I had. I did have a stay-at-home mom. She had been a teacher (for about 9 years), but gave up her career when she had me. Then she went to work for my father eventually, but that's a different story. I don't have a crystal ball, so I don't know if I'll want to send my kid to daycare until they can go to preschool or if I'll take time off. I'll be 31 when I graduate, and I don't have an SO, so I assume IF I do decide to have children it will have to be pretty soon after I graduate. But I don't think I could do like my mom and just stay at home while my children are at school, I would want to practice. Also by quality of life I mean financially as well. My parents helped with my undergrad and they also continue to pay all my medical expenses (2 broken feet this year!), so this may mean cutting down on the number of kids in order to give the ones I do have the best quality of life possible on the amount of finances I have. Unfortunately hugs and rainbows don't pay for diapers or college education.

 

[rachroo]

Whoa, whoa, whoa....not vaccinating!

Hehe, totally off topic but yesterday I had to give a huge speech on the pros of vaccination. Then, I had to go up against and refute the guy who was anti-vaccination!

 

[sumstorm]

I can relate to women who don't want to kids, and women who do. I will be 30 next year. I never wanted children, not through my first marriage and becoming a widow, not through the 5 years after that, not until I met, and eventually married, my 2nd husband. I am still not 'sure' I want kids...not because of vet school or career, but because it makes life in general more complex, but then again, that is part of the joy of a family....more complexity, more experiences, more love, more kinship.

We don't know if we will have kids, but if we do, it will probably be while I am in vet school. Did I want it that way? No, of course not. I suppose I might have been able to go straight to vet school after college, except my parents, whom I love dearly, did NOT provide ANY financial assistance through college. Not even a birthday gift of toiletries or a christmas gift of food. Everything was my responsability, and while I had scholarships and grants, I still carried a heavy debt load because, in this country, you are an adult for crimes and military service at 18, but not for college attendance until 24. And depending on where you live, it doesn't matter if your parents say they couldn't be bothered to ever see you again, and since you are over 18, legal emancipation isn't an option, because you ARE an adult. I worked 40-60 hours a week during college, which I attended full time. I consider it a miracle that I, the first graduate in my family, made it through. Neither of my parents completed high school, let alone understand the value of a college education.

So, honestly, I couldn't have afforded to attend vet school without working full time or more, and I am not sure that was a realistic option. Now, I am in a position of being financially capable of going to vet school, but there is a biological time clock. For me, I am fortunate, my loving husband wants children (neither of us have children) and would rework his career to stay home and work PT from home. I think plenty of men who don't have children do eventually want them. My husband is older than I am by over a decade, and he is just now being bit by the baby bug....the biological desire may just kick in later, and for many men, they may have kids before that strong desire arises.

Some people never want kids, and that is fine, but if one does want kids, they need to be able to consider thier options. The idea that taking time off to have children is wasted amazes me. In this country, where transferable skills are so important, the idea that the sleepless nights I spent working in a stupor on the heaving decks of a vessel in nor'easters at sea is of such greater value than a sleepless nights tending to a child where I may learn the skills of reinforcement, scheduling, organizing and resource conservation a new parent must learn is interesting. I doubt my skills of never getting sea sick will provide me much value in most vet jobs, but the ability to bring out the emotives of a creature incapable of verbal communication could be invaluable.

Not saying those skills can't be gained elsewhere....just that the idea of them having little value is a bit odd.

 

[Mylez]

I never said having children was waste of time. I actually think it is a very important and special role for those who do decide to have kids. I just feel like giving up a career you have worked your a** off for to care for those kids seems a bit sad and wasteful to me. Some people can do both - before you do decide, make sure you have a VERY supportive partner. Again, not my thing - and if you do have kids they certainly must come first.

And regarding the vets who "have it all..." is that *really* the case? I doubt it. The economic crisis that this country is in says it all about our "have it all" attitude. You CANNOT have it all, especially not anymore. That is what got us into this mess (well...I can never really afford to pay off this house at any point, but I absolutely must have a house with six bedrooms for my two children, and two nice, brand new trucks, and an LCD TV...)

I bet if you asked them they are still making student loan payments, mortgage payments, and life is not as "peachy" as it may seem on the outside.

I know of a vet who owns a very pricey clinic, a house that is easily close to being worth 1 million, and has three kids, and two nice new cars. I can guarantee you he doesn't see much of his paycheck for himself, and most of that "affluent" or "comfortable" living is off of credit.

It's just the reality. You're not going to have those opportunities in the future. Not unless Obama turns the economy around.

 

[Starwrecker]

So why even bother going to vet school unless you can afford to pay cash for it? Same with everything...why buy it if you can't afford to pay for it in full right now? We take on this debt knowing we're going to have to work hard forever to pay it off...but that doesn't mean we can't have happy comfortable lives. A lot of people have mortgage payments...doesn't mean they're struggling...some with student loans...monthly payments are a fact of life.

I guess your idea and my idea of "having it all" are different. For me...as long as I can afford my bills every month and have a little bit left over...I'm good to go. If I didn't have bills to pay, I wouldn't see a need to work.