Degree Change: Interesting post on AOA president's blog

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"Another option to consider for those of you who are really fed up with your degree designation, is to switch schools or return to school for an MD degree. No one forced the DO degree upon you. You chose to attend an osteopathic medical school and you knew going in the degree was DO."
 
"...the House of Delegates’ unanimous decision to reaffirm the DO degree designation."

Who elected these delegates, again? I wasn't involved in that selection process as far as I know. Are they really representing those of us in practice?
 
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I thought his blog post was very dismissive and defensive. These are legitimate concerns that have been lingering for a long time. I think it is more of a collective frustration among Osteopathic physicians that we are still (I speak this still as a 3rd year medical student) relatively unknown and the target of professional defamation by the media.
The profession is older than Chiropractic, yet most people when asked immediately recognize what that profession entails, but have no clue as to what the Osteopathic designation means!
In my opinion, it is great to have separate identity, as the ontology of the profession is based upon a novel (credible) medical modality. However, it is equally important to be respected and taken seriously both by our allopathic colleagues and the public at large. Otherwise, we'll always be that "other group."
 
Tourterm said:
"Another option to consider for those of you who are really fed up with your degree designation, is to switch schools or return to school for an MD degree. No one forced the DO degree upon you. You chose to attend an osteopathic medical school and you knew going in the degree was DO."
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I'm not fed up with my degree designation. I'm fed up with people who are trying to emphasize the DC portion of it at the expense of the MD portion of it. This arrogant and dismissive post by the AOA president is a perfect example of why that organization will never be reformed. DOs are just going to have to starve them out through non-membership.
 
Old_Mil said:
This arrogant and dismissive post by the AOA president is a perfect example of why that organization will never be reformed. DOs are just going to have to starve them out through non-membership.
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I for one want nothing to do with them. I just throw out the JAOA when it comes. The medical content is minimal and if I read one more article about "sidebent" cranial bones from a researcher who is the ONLY ONE doing it because interexaminer reliability is near zero, I'm going to puke. Get your act together AOA. And please, as the president of the AOA, act like a professional and don't write stuff as if you were talking down to your spoiled little sister.
 
quite passive agressive, and dismissive if you ask me ...
 
:(

No one can really justify there being a need for two different degrees for medical doctors. This whole situation is pretty sad.
 
I'm not an OMM king of guy at all but I see no benefit in changing degrees. And I don't think I should be handed a degree that I didn't earn.

I do enjoy generations of pre-meds and med students worrying about the same stuff. Keep banging your head against that wall kids, it'll stop hurting right before you pass out.
 
San_Juan_Sun said:
I'm not an OMM king of guy at all but I see no benefit in changing degrees. And I don't think I should be handed a degree that I didn't earn.

I do enjoy generations of pre-meds and med students worrying about the same stuff. Keep banging your head against that wall kids, it'll stop hurting right before you pass out.
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You see no benefit in having a unified profession? You don't feel you earned the same degree as an MD except for some extra stuff? Really?
 
I'm not an OMM king of guy at all but I see no benefit in changing degrees. And I don't think I should be handed a degree that I didn't earn.
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I don't care either way about the name change;

but you don't feel like you've earned a doctorate in medicine??? I kind of care about that! lol

Edit: After reading that link, I support it. It will either fail and everyone complaining would have to shut up, or it would pass and I don't see much harm in that either.
 
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meister said:
You see no benefit in having a unified profession?
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We do have a unified profession. I work with my MD colleagues every day taking care of dozens of patients. We get along great. A degree name change won't help that (not that it needs help). I tend to eschew unnecessary hassle for minimal gain.

meister said:
You don't feel you earned the same degree as an MD except for some extra stuff? Really?
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No, I earned a DO. I'm looking at it right now on my wall...

Yep, "Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine".

Despite being equivalent in every way, I did not earn an M.D., and will not embarrass myself by trying to weasel my way into a M.D./D.O. (or whatever else you can think of that you didn't earn).

I also would think that my M.D. friends would be rightly perturbed if I claimed anything other than being a D.O. Nobody likes pretenders.
 
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DannMann99 said:
I don't care either way about the name change;

but you don't feel like you've earned a doctorate in medicine??? I kind of care about that! lol
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See above. You're a good man, DannMann, and you've bigger and better things ahead than pointless worrying about degree name changes.
 
San_Juan_Sun said:
No, I earned a DO. I'm looking at it right now on my wall...

Yep, "Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine".

Despite being equivalent in every way, I did not earn an M.D., and will not embarrass myself by trying to weasel my way into a M.D./D.O. (or whatever else you can think of that you didn't earn).

I also would think that my M.D. friends would be rightly perturbed if I claimed anything other than being a D.O. Nobody likes pretenders.
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If we lived in a society where a doctor was a doctor, a nurse was a nurse ... etc etc, then I really wouldn't care about separate degrees, but recently I realized how many mid level people (ie NP, PT) and non physicians (ie DC) want to refer to themselves as doctors and physicians. The world understands the MD = doctor, and I don't see how clarification in confusing times could hurt ... especially when it really just recognizes the degree ( podiatrists have medicine in their degree title but DOs don't ... come on??). I think the DO degree is a wonderful thing, I'm applying to DO schools in June and will be thrilled to be accepted into one ... but I understand the point. Wanting to change the degree because you're ashamed and want to impress your friends and parents ... nahh, changing it to recognize what it really is and bring up osteopathic numbers, funding, public perception ... sure.
 
San_Juan_Sun, I appreciate and respect your position as you are farther along in your medical career as most of us who are posting, but I think you may be viewing a larger situation through your lenses only. I have talked to plenty of DOs who have felt the sting of discrimination because of the degree designation - a degree that required two years of basic science instruction and two years of clinical instruction just like the MD. I would caution you against dismissing this issue simply because you have not personally experienced mistreatment.

I would also urge you to consider the possibility that we, in fact, do not have a unified medical profession. I would contend that any lack of unity is largely in part because the AOA and zealot osteopathic physicians have the audacity to claim that the “tenets of osteopathy,” are held only by DOs and, therefore, we are better physicians. In my experience, many MDs feel it is ridiculous for us to be granted a different degree when, on the whole, we practice the same medicine (or should be at least). In the age of modern, evidenced-based medicine the more we try to distinguish ourselves as being different, the more credibility we lose.

As we can see from the posts on this thread, there are differing opinions. As such, each person rightfully deserves to have their voices heard. Most people who advocate for a degree change are simply not willing to wait another 100+ years to receive the recognition that we have earned. The AOA should have no problem bringing this issue to a vote among the general membership. President DiMarco, however, has made his and the AOA’s position clear: If you don’t like it, then get out. It's statements like this that will make DO to MD transition programs from overseas schools extremely popular.
 
San_Juan_Sun said:
No, I earned a DO. I'm looking at it right now on my wall...

Yep, "Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine".

Despite being equivalent in every way, I did not earn an M.D., and will not embarrass myself by trying to weasel my way into a M.D./D.O. (or whatever else you can think of that you didn't earn).

I also would think that my M.D. friends would be rightly perturbed if I claimed anything other than being a D.O. Nobody likes pretenders.
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This isn't about a degree change, it's about a designation change. You said that the degree on your wall says "Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine". But to an educated person, how does that logically translate to "DO"? Is the word "Medicine" as insignificant as the word "of"?

People seem to forget that the degree has already changed, as has the names of our schools from "Colleges of Osteopathy" to "Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine". It's completely illogical to change these, but not change our designation.

The only thing that would change is the letters you sign after your name and the ones displayed on your coat. There has to be a way to compromise these differing opinions... perhaps those who don't want to change can continue to use the designation "DO?" This would be similar to how IMGs can write either "MD" or "MBBS".
 
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meister said:
You don't feel you earned the same degree as an MD except for some extra stuff?
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I did and I have the same degree as an MD. I don't care if you see it, I don't care if a bunch of pre-meds see it, I don't even care if my patients see it. I went to medical school to practice medicine. Anyone who cares so much about the two letters shouldn't go to a DO school. It's that easy.

Stop whining about two stupid letters and start worrying about why DO schools are letting people in with 22s on the MCAT or DO schools are popping up left and right yet the number of quality osteopathic residencies are staying the same. These are things that directly effect our education and treatment of patients. Changing the letters will have zero effect on patient management except for the MD rejects who will be able to tell their families that they truly are equal to an MD.
 
J1515 said:
Stop whining about two stupid letters and start worrying about why DO schools are letting people in with 22s on the MCAT
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Do you really want to know why? Because allopathic schools are expanding, and applicants who would have went to a DO school are now getting into these new allopathic schools. Therefore in order to fill their seats, DO schools are having to accept sub-par applicants.

And for those applicants who apply to both allo and osteo programs, do you know what the major deterrent from DO schools is? The two stupid letters. I doubt there is a single med school applicant who is totally opposed to learning OMM and osteopathic principles... it is simply the letters that keep them away (as well as tuition, but there are expensive MD schools too).

The issue of designation is not insignificant. It has been the reason and will continue to be the reason for the stigma (often true) of most DOs being considered MD-rejects. If the designation is changed to include an "M", the quality of applicants will increase undoubtedly.
 
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Boy, this issue is going to keep rearing its ugly head, huh? I've said it before and I'll say it again. If things change, so be it. If not, I really could care less. I'm working my butt off to become the best possible physician I can be. When I think about my future as a 2nd, 3rd, 4th year medical student, resident, attending, etc., I think about my patients. Who will they be? What will their problems be? How am I going to solve those problems? I don't think about being discriminated for those two letters, or equality amongst my colleagues or public image. I have in the past, and these are valid issues. However, once you get past them you realize that it's all about the patients.

On the other hand, Dr. DiMarco needs to take a step back and realize exactly what he is saying. I am willing to speculate that if it was that easy for DO students or osteopathic physicians to transfer out or start anew at an allopathic school, DO enrollment would drop rapidly. We need to face the truth. I can't give you a number, but the truth is that many DO students are allopathic rejects who were shunned by MD schools for whatever reason and just wanted to be PHYSICIANS. This does not diminish the dedication and the pride put in by that those who truly believe in the philosophy and the tenets of osteopathic medicine. This is just reality. Bottom line. We NEED to stop ignoring it. Yes, the media and even the profession itself is skewed toward and allopathic first mentality. Will a change in the degree designation change that? I don't know. Or will any physician who doesn't call himself MD always face the same challenges, no matter what the letters are: OMD, MDO, MD/DO, DO/MD, etc., etc., etc. Who knows? The way I see it is that there are two options:

Keep fighting for a degree designation change with an uncertain belief and hope that it will help put the profession on equal footing in the workplace, media and public perception.

Or

Make yourself a better student and better future physician so the DO designation will speak for itself and eventually, maybe, we will gain some much deserved respect.

You choose. 1 DO, 1 Vote right?
 
Great post metalmd06

The number exists, and its greater than 50%. New AAMC article clearly illustrates that around 66% of the DO applicant pool apply to both MD and DO programs.

Since we went to medical school to practice medicine (yes, osteopathic medicine), wouldn't it be nice to have an M in our title for the medicine we learn and practice? Just a thought. I guess that would make too much sense.

One DO, One Vote
 
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Very few people who earn a Ph.D. actually do any philosophy. Many are scientists, teachers, etc. In the sciences an equivalent degree is DSc...the minority? Yes. Respected? Yes. Being in the minority doesn't mean there's discrimination. Of all the DOs I've spoken with (in a state that is NOT DO rich), all have said they have never felt discrimination or felt like patients that they were only half doctors, witch doctors, MD rejects, etc.

I'll be proud to be a DO, DOM, DO/MD, or whatever people choose to call it. Will there be some ignorant people and MDs? Of course! There will also be ignorant people that don't like a doctor because they went to Rosalind Franklin or Mercer Medical Schools instead of Harvard. That's just how it works.
 
If you want to be called an MD, or even if you just want the recognition that an MD gets in the US, there are many paths you can take. You can go to a US MD school. You can go to a Carribean MD school. You can go to a thousand different countries on Earth, get their equivalent degree, take the USMLE's and call yourself an MD.

There are literally thousands of places on Earth where you could go to school, earn a degree and call yourself an MD in the US.

There are only about 30 places on Earth where you can go to school, earn a DO degree, and be fully licensed in the US as a physician.

Yet, instead of going to any of those thousands of places, you want to go to one of the 30 DO-granting institutions and expect them to change the degree designation for you. How silly is that?
 
There seem to be quite a variety of interesting positions being espoused here.

J1515 said:
Stop whining about two stupid letters and start worrying about why DO schools are letting people in with 22s on the MCAT or DO schools are popping up left and right yet the number of quality osteopathic residencies are staying the same. These are things that directly effect our education and treatment of patients. Changing the letters will have zero effect on patient management except for the MD rejects who will be able to tell their families that they truly are equal to an MD.
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What is all this supposed to mean? First off, I think some of your preconceptions are a bit inaccurate. I read an article not too long ago that stated that while the # of MD applicants had fallen by a few percent this year, the number of DO applicants had increased substantially. Furthermore, many DO schools have noticed an increase in the quality of their applicants this year; I've been told that at least a couple schools (Western and UMDNJ-SOM) now have applicant MCAT averages of well over 30 and GPA averages of 3.5+. This is well into the stats territory usually held by MD schools. As for the fact that DO branch campuses keep popping up everywhere, yes it does look somewhat fishy and perhaps greedy in a sense....but we are well on the road to having a massive physician shortage in the US, are we not? The allopathic schools don't seem to be expanding to meet this need very well...so what is the alternative? Are we going to have to resort to importing more foreign MDs as this country has been doing with engineers and doctorate-level researchers for the last couple of decades? It always surprises me to see people giving the DO campuses so much guff on this subject when more news seems to come out each week about the massive physician shortages we're likely to encounter in the next decade.

The whole issue of the lackluster public perception of DOs seems to stem largely from the fact that the allopathic profession led a long (and largely successful) campaign throughout much of the 20th century to cement the notion that "MD=physician" in the minds of most Americans. This campaign, of course, was directly waged against DOs for a time, as well as DCs and perhaps some other less reputable groups, and while the effort perhaps had some good intentions behind it we're left to deal with its fallout. (How many other professions have had to deal with this issue as well? Are there still states where optometrists, podiatrists, veteranarians, etc cannot use the title "doctor"?) That said, I simply don't understand why the AOA never successfully stood up and established "DO=physician" in the public mindset. Optometrists, for instance, managed to do this pretty well; half the time, when people talk about going to the "eye doctor" they're going to an optometrist and they don't even know that optometrist =\ ophthalmologist. If we can't manage to somehow do this for ourselves, then we might as well merge in with the MDs.

In short, we don't need to prove "DO=MD". We need to establish "DO=physician". There is a subtle but important difference between these notions.
 
dozitgetchahi said:
In short, we don't need to prove "DO=MD". We need to establish "DO=physician".
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This is the exact position held by the AOA. This has also been the goal for 100+ years. Guess what? IT HASN'T WORKED YET!!!!!!!!! So what now?

I have yet to hear a plausible argument against the degree change. Can someone who opposes such a change please provide logical reasons for their position other than, "You should be happy with your degree"?
 
scpod said:
Yet, instead of going to any of those thousands of places, you want to go to one of the 30 DO-granting institutions and expect them to change the degree designation for you. How silly is that?
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I guess I'll be the one to say why...because they couldn't get into an MD school and they want the MD. Sorry, I know the truth hurts. (And here comes everyone saying how all of their friends had 45's on the MCAT but chose to go to a DO school - yet the school's average accepted MCAT is a 24).

And to the person who said the average applicant to certain DO schools has an MCAT over 30, I would LOVE to see proof of that :laugh:
 
DOinMS said:
This is the exact position held by the AOA. This has also been the goal for 100+ years. Guess what? IT HASN'T WORKED YET!!!!!!!!! So what now?
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:rolleyes::rolleyes: DO's have NOT been considered physicians for 100 years. They haven't even had equal practice rights in all 50 states for the past 40 years. I suggest you read up on the history of DOs and then get back to me.
 
I'd support the vote because that's a major decision for the profession. But if they did make a vote, and DO's wanted a name change, what would it even be? DOM or MDO or something else? They can't change it to MD...So would it even make a difference? Wouldn't you get the same questions? "What's a MDO? What's a DOM?"

Also, the president's argument that you chose to attend osteopathic medical school is completely valid.
 
I can understand why some oppose this idea, but I dont see why we cant just consider this idea as a profession?

No offense, but the majority of individuals who are anti-change are just unwilling in any regard to even consider the possibility that changing the designation might help DOs in anyway. Most just flat out reject the idea in anyway.

The degree states doctor of osteopathic medicine, and I dont see what is wrong with a DO wanting to use an M for medicine in their title. There are many DOs that support this change, and they are not all MD rejects or MD want to bes as those on this blog would suggest.

They are DOs who think the title misrepresents our current scope of practice, is confusing, and from a business and proffessional stand point makes no sense at all.

The Dean of NOVA wrote a whole article detailing this idea last year, how we need to adapt to the times and change our title. TCOM is considering a MD program. People are catching on that this ridiculous title of DO is more damaging to the osteopathic medical profession than any good.

DOs/DO students that refuse to even consider the idea of changing the DO title are insecure and over defensive of their degree/title, which is clearly evident in the unprofessional manner in which they insult fellow students and DOs on this blog.
They are unable to discuss the issue in any sort of venue and unwilling to even weigh the possibility that a change could benefit osteopathic medicine.

One DO, One Vote.....Lets make a change. :)
 
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J1515 said:
:rolleyes::rolleyes: DO's have NOT been considered physicians for 100 years. They haven't even had equal practice rights in all 50 states for the past 40 years. I suggest you read up on the history of DOs and then get back to me.
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I think you are incorrect for the following reasons:

1. The first SOM was granted the right to award the M.D., but Dr. Still chose D.O. This leads me to believe that the intent has been all along for us to be physicians and be recognized as such. By the way, that was in 1892. The reason for a different degree was because in that day we practiced different medicine (allopathic=blood letting and opium therapy, homeopathic=snake oil). Today, overall, we should NOT be practicing a different medicine as modern medicine has moved strongly toward being evidenced-based. As I have said before, the more we try to be different, the more credibility we lose.

2. The first state to grant full practice rights did so in 1896. This tells me that DOs have been struggling for equal recognition at least that long, which was my thesis all along.

So would someone now answer my original question rather than attempt to change the direction of the discussion?
 
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"The first SOM was granted the right to award the M.D., but Dr. Still chose D.O. This leads me to believe that the intent has been all along for us to be physicians and be recognized as such. By the way, that was in 1892."

Great info.....You'ld think by 2009 people would say ok..we practice medicine....maybe an M makes sense?
 
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andexterouss said:
To your first question:Awarding a three letter will only lead to more schism and separation of the professions. We need to award either one degree (MD) or two degree (MD,DO) which the public can recognize and unifies both professions. We also need to open up our residencies to MDs. This invisible divide that separates us should end once and for all. AOA would like us to believe we are different but we not. Once we step into the halls of the hospital, we are all the same.

A "DO" only degree can be awarded to those who really want to make a career out of OMM. These folks should do two years of classroom work and another two years of clinical practice (just like dentists).You won't see these folks arguing MD vs DO because their practice of medicine is different.

Finally,I disagree with your last statement that people "chose" to attend DO school. To have a choice, one must have had an MD acceptance along with a DO acceptance and then chose to attend the DO school. When the *only* acceptance you have is from a DO school, that's not much of a choice is it?
Few choose DO over MD(~5%). The rest were relegated to attend a DO school for whatever academic reasons.
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Well, they cannot change the degree to MD, so that's out of the question. And LOL to your second comment about choice. If you couldn't get into an MD school, that's irrelevant to the argument. Your choice was to enroll or not enroll in osteopathic medical school. You knew you were going to be awarded a DO degree, not an MD degree, and you made that choice to attend.
 
Everyone has the right to agree or disagree with the idea of changing the degree. There is, however, a much larger issue here. What should concern everyone is the manner in which the issue is being handled by the AOA and President DiMarco as it sets a dangerous precedence for the future. In his blog entry, President DiMarco basically invites all DOs in favor of changing the degree, i.e., those who disagree with the House of Delegates, to leave the profession. Is this the type of response you want from your professional organization? Even if you are against a degree change, is this how you would want a future proposal for change, which you do support, to be addressed? The proponents of a degree change are not satisfied with the House of Delegates (<1% of DOs) deciding the outcome, and simply want the opportunity to vote on the issue - 1 DO, 1 vote. There really is no sound reason why anyone should have a problem with that, aside from protectionism and/or paranoia.
 
I agree with DOinMS that the most disturbing thing about this issue is Dr. DiMarco's simple dismissal of it. The "choice" he gives us of entering an MD school is not only unrealistic (why would anybody choose to repeat 4 years of medical school), but he's completely missing the point. WE DO NOT WANT AN MD DEGREE, WE WANT OUR LETTERS TO REPRESENT WHAT WE ACTUALLY DO.

cliquesh said:
Well, they cannot change the degree to MD, so that's out of the question. And LOL to your second comment about choice. If you couldn't get into an MD school, that's irrelevant to the argument. Your choice was to enroll or not enroll in osteopathic medical school. You knew you were going to be awarded a DO degree, not an MD degree, and you made that choice to attend.
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cliquesh, can you explain to me why the designation could not change to MD/DO? The LCME does not own the rights to the designation "MD", as multitudes of non-LCME-accredited medical schools (Caribbean schools) award this degree and designation. However, you bring up a good point that people might still ask "what is MDO" (if that's what the designation changes to). My response would be this: "I am a physician who learned osteopathic manipulative techniques in addition to traditional medicine". If you say the same thing with the letters "DO", it almost sounds like your covering up something...

And yes, I knew that I was going to be awarded with the designation "DO" when I accepted my offer to attend osteopathic medical school. At that time, I was misled to believe the AOA's rhetoric that DOs are significantly different from MDs. And even though most physicians told me how similar they actually are, I was under the impression that in DO school, I would learn a completely different approach to medicine that would make me a superior physician in every way. What I got was 3 years of a medical curriculum identical to an allopathic school (much of it taught by MDs) along with 3 hours a week of OMT. My 4th year has been spent at various allopathic institutions unfamiliar with DOs, where I've had to explain to attendings that a DO-school is indeed a 4-year curriculum. We learn MEDICINE with a little bit of OMT thrown into our first 2 years - I still cannot fathom why people don't see why the word "medicine" is not significant enough to be displayed.
 
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In the United States, only LCME-approved schools can offer MD degrees, so it would be impossible for the AOA just to say, "Ok, no more DO degrees. We will give everyone an MD instead." Each DO school would have to petition for LCME approval, and how many schools do you think would be approved?

The only thing the AOA could do is change the degree to something other than MD, such as MDO or IMADOC, which would still cause confusion, and maybe legal concerns, ie..everything in the law about DOs would need to be changed to the new title.

I'd support a 1 DO: 1 Vote proposal, and I would probably vote for a name change (MDO), but I don't think it will make a big difference. You'll still be an osteopathic physician, and need to explain the difference between an osteopathic and allopathic physican.
 
ceftazidime said:
.... WE WANT OUR LETTERS TO REPRESENT WHAT WE ACTUALLY DO.....
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How many classes in Philosophy do you have to take to get a PhD in Biology?

None.

Hmmm... OK, then how much research into Philosophy do you have to do?

None.

Ahh... Then how many Philosophy classes do you have to teach?

None.

Well....then why is it a Doctor of Philosophy? That doesn't represent what you do at all.

Who cares?
 
A doctorate is an academic degree that in most countries represents the highest level of formal study or research in a given field. LOL
 
miam042 said:
"The first SOM was granted the right to award the M.D., but Dr. Still chose D.O. This leads me to believe that the intent has been all along for us to be physicians and be recognized as such. By the way, that was in 1892."

Great info.....You'ld think by 2009 people would say ok..we practice medicine....maybe an M makes sense?
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Or, you'd think by 2009, now that DOs have full practice rights, we'd be shouting to get rid of cranial and other such techniques that have zero evidence and reliability. How come you aren't making a big deal out of that? Doesn't it worry you that DO schools are popping up left and right and # of residencies are still the same? What will you do when you are forced to practice in rural Wyoming as an FP because there were no more allopathic spots left for DO grads? And I hate to tell you, but being an MDO will do nothing for the profession. People still won't know what it stands for. It will however soothe the ego of the MD rejects - that is all.

The only people who should even have a voice in this discussion are the people who had the opportunity to CHOOSE MD or DO, meaning they got into both. I happen to remember from our previous arguments that you got rejected from all MD schools and were forced to use DO as a backup. So you really think the profession should make a drastic change just because you couldn't get into an MD school?
 
DOinMS said:
Everyone has the right to agree or disagree with the idea of changing the degree. There is, however, a much larger issue here. What should concern everyone is the manner in which the issue is being handled by the AOA and President DiMarco as it sets a dangerous precedence for the future. In his blog entry, President DiMarco basically invites all DOs in favor of changing the degree, i.e., those who disagree with the House of Delegates, to leave the profession. Is this the type of response you want from your professional organization?
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Yes. It's exactly the response I want and the perfect solution. They have much bigger issues on their plate than a bunch of MD rejects who never wanted to be a DO to begin with. I am glad they see that this issue is not worth their time.

Regardless, the letters are not changing. Someone tried to make an online petition last year and only got 500 signitures or something. I suggest dedicate this effort to studying and being the best physician you can be. Changing the perception people have of the profession is a lot easier than rewriting laws and changing the degree.
 
J1515 said:
Yes. It's exactly the response I want and the perfect solution. They have much bigger issues on their plate than a bunch of MD rejects who never wanted to be a DO to begin with. I am glad they see that this issue is not worth their time.

Regardless, the letters are not changing. Someone tried to make an online petition last year and only got 500 signitures or something. I suggest dedicate this effort to studying and being the best physician you can be. Changing the perception people have of the profession is a lot easier than rewriting laws and changing the degree.
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Why do you have to keep spouting off about "MD rejects"? Some of us (namely myself) got into both types of medical schools but chose a DO school for one reason or another. You claim to be comfortable with the notion that a DO is the same as an MD, so then why do you keep calling DOs "MD rejects" as if we're two entirely different breeds? Some of us applicants didn't really care which set of letters we were going to put behind our names and chose a school based on factors like price, location, etc. Are you going to be one of those docs that reinforces the anti-DO bias for your entire career?

Some of your other comments seem awfully stereotypical as well. You must know from reading these boards that most of us are not exactly cheerleaders for treatment modalities such as OMM and craniosacral therapy - in fact, we often have mixed feelings (at best) about them. Many of us frankly have no intention of using these modalities when we start practicing. Many of us are also uncomfortable with the fact that a for-profit osteopathic campus has now emerged, as well as the fact that new osteopathic "branch" campuses are suddenly popping up all over the place. We're mostly not fond of the AOA's stances on all of these topics - in fact, we've often been highly critical of the positions that organization holds.
 
I think he was just saying that the majority of people upset about the degree title are MD rejects. He wasn't saying all DO students are MD rejects.
 
I think most people are loosing the site of the issue at hand. The reason this issue was even brought up was not because of those students who wished they attended an allopathic institution and as such wish to have that degree, the issue instead is that we are a profession with a duel identity. Our degree is issued across the world and that is what leads to the issue. Foreign countries have difficulty granting practice rights to physicians who hold they same degree as those who don't have training outside of OMM. The idea of changing the degree arose so that we could be better separated from the OMM only DO degree that exists throughout Europe. It has never been about which degree is superior or patient recognition, but rather this credential issue.

It also bars foreign osteopaths from coming to the US and competing with the DC's since our DO degree is significantly different.
 
scpod said:
You can go to a Carribean MD school. You can go to a thousand different countries on Earth, get their equivalent degree, take the USMLE's and call yourself an MD.

There are literally thousands of places on Earth where you could go to school, earn a degree and call yourself an MD in the US.
Click to expand...

An interesting note. Why doesn't the US offer that option for DOs who graduate, and pass the USMLEs (instead of the comlex of course)?
 
Medicfletch said:
I think most people are loosing the site of the issue at hand. The reason this issue was even brought up was not because of those students who wished they attended an allopathic institution and as such wish to have that degree, the issue instead is that we are a profession with a duel identity. Our degree is issued across the world and that is what leads to the issue. Foreign countries have difficulty granting practice rights to physicians who hold they same degree as those who don't have training outside of OMM. The idea of changing the degree arose so that we could be better separated from the OMM only DO degree that exists throughout Europe. It has never been about which degree is superior or patient recognition, but rather this credential issue.

It also bars foreign osteopaths from coming to the US and competing with the DC's since our DO degree is significantly different.
Click to expand...

That's why I'd vote for it.

And Dan, check out www.DoToMD.com if you haven't. Its actually real.
 
DannMann99 said:
An interesting note. Why doesn't the US offer that option for DOs who graduate, and pass the USMLEs (instead of the comlex of course)?
Click to expand...

I don't know. If a foreign trained MBBS can run around calling himself an MD after passing USMLE I, II, and III...I don't know why a domestically trained DO could not.
 
Hehe, I wasn't supporting that website or suggesting anyone use it, but I thought it was kind of interesting and funny. It is real, though. You pay them 24k and they'll give you a MD degree.
 
J1515 said:
Or, you'd think by 2009, now that DOs have full practice rights, we'd be shouting to get rid of cranial and other such techniques that have zero evidence and reliability.
Click to expand...

Now you are being a DO heretic! By abandoning cranial and "other such techniques that have zero evidence and reliability," are you suggesting that DOs practice modern, evidenced-based medicine? What then would make us so different that it would justify a separate degree that celebrates training in an application that you suggest has no validity or reliability?

To directly address the poster's statement, a change of credential and an abandonment of a degree that has essentially lost its inherent difference (and credibility) from the MD, would certainly be a proclamation to the medical community and patients that we ascribe to and practice modern, evidenced-based medicine.

J1515 said:
Someone tried to make an online petition last year and only got 500 signitures or something.
Click to expand...

So why does the House of Delegates, with its 500 members, trump the voice of 500 future or practicing physicians?

J1515 said:
Changing the perception people have of the profession is a lot easier than rewriting laws and changing the degree.
Click to expand...

Shall we give it another 100+ years?

dozitgetchahi said:
Why do you have to keep spouting off about "MD rejects"? Some of us (namely myself) got into both types of medical schools but chose a DO school for one reason or another. You claim to be comfortable with the notion that a DO is the same as an MD, so then why do you keep calling DOs "MD rejects" as if we're two entirely different breeds? Some of us applicants didn't really care which set of letters we were going to put behind our names and chose a school based on factors like price, location, etc. Are you going to be one of those docs that reinforces the anti-DO bias for your entire career?

Some of your other comments seem awfully stereotypical as well. You must know from reading these boards that most of us are not exactly cheerleaders for treatment modalities such as OMM and craniosacral therapy - in fact, we often have mixed feelings (at best) about them. Many of us frankly have no intention of using these modalities when we start practicing. Many of us are also uncomfortable with the fact that a for-profit osteopathic campus has now emerged, as well as the fact that new osteopathic "branch" campuses are suddenly popping up all over the place. We're mostly not fond of the AOA's stances on all of these topics - in fact, we've often been highly critical of the positions that organization holds.
Click to expand...

I agree totally. My fiance and I both had acceptances to an MD school (where I also taught), but chose the school we currently attend for personal reasons.
 
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