Degree Change: Interesting post on AOA president's blog

[JaggerPlate]

Just as an aside ... I didn't know what a DMD was and wouldn't automatically go ohh dentist without being on this site for a while.

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[PipiChen]

I highly recommend the book "The DOs, Osteopathic Medicine in America" by Norman Gavitez. The detailed accounts of the history and development of DO gives a lot of informative insights into the wide range of problems that DOs were and are currently facing. And pertaining to the MD designation, the book will tell you that the same plead was brought up by students more than 80 years ago and was harshly lashed back at by AOA/HOD. The current clauses written to limit accredited osteopathic schools to award DO degree and only was first resolved when the subject was voiced by practitioners and students back then.

Esp in the chapter dealing with the Cali merger, the several issues dealing with the acquired MD initials and AMA local (state) specialty certification gave a balance view of the pros and cons of simply having those initial.

Also, reading the book will also tell you that how Flexner had also benefited DO education today by defending the purpose of including DO schools in his original report; although his words criticizing the atrocious conditions at all the DO schools were caustic yet truthful.

DOs are currently referred as osteopathic physicians because many DOs, including those of AOA then, simply hope it would associate them more with medical doctor and less skilled massagers/rubbers! They actually hired professionals to perform a street survey to ask people from different walks of life what was their understanding of a DO/osteopath!! hahaha

 

[Peptoboy]

Dude, patients don't even spend a fraction of the amount of time thinking about this garbage as you do. Eliminate the dubious aspects of OMM from the curriculum, raise the minimum MCAT to 25 and GPA to 3.5, and the educations will be exactly the same. Voila! No need to rewrite laws, no need to change hospital policies, no need to petition the AOA. People will see DO or MD and think doctor, just as they see DMD and DDS and think dentist. Nobody cares or thinks about what DMD or DDS actually stands for or what association they come from or how/if their educations differ.

This is what goes on in your head when choosing a dentist:

'I want to go to this DMD, no wait, I'll go to this DDS, no wait, well they both have exactly the same training, but one has an M in his title, so maybe he's better? But wait, they both come from a unified association so maybe it really doesn't matter?' <--- this line of thinking goes on for hours upon hours, day after day in your head while the cavities in your mouth rot away the teeth and you end up having to get a root canal


This is what goes on in the average patient's head:

'My friend/PMD recommended this dentist/physician. I will make an appointment tomorrow.'

I know that when I choose a Physician the first thing I do is open up the yellow pages to make sure I find one that is not a D.O. Oh, but sometimes I get cheated because "a lot of them don't put their initials by their name", so I go to them by accident. Great post!

 

[4Doc4]

I know that when I choose a Physician the first thing I do is open up the yellow pages to make sure I find one that is not a D.O. Oh, but sometimes I get cheated because "a lot of them don't put their initials by their name", so I go to them by accident. Great post!

Ahhhhh, how precious! Batman has found his Robin.

 

[ceftazidime]

I know that when I choose a Physician the first thing I do is open up the yellow pages to make sure I find one that is not a D.O. Oh, but sometimes I get cheated because "a lot of them don't put their initials by their name", so I go to them by accident. Great post!

Have you ever actually done this? Because if you have, you may have noticed that most phone books have a section for "physicians" and one for "osteopathic physicians"... as if DOs are not considered regular physicians. So unless you look specifically for a DO in the phonebook, you're not going to find one.

 

[J1515]

Have you ever actually done this? Because if you have, you may have noticed that most phone books have a section for "physicians" and one for "osteopathic physicians"... as if DOs are not considered regular physicians. So unless you look specifically for a DO in the phonebook, you're not going to find one.

I'd say 0.1% of patients choose a physician blindly from a list. You will get the majority of your patients from either hospital consults or referrals.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I'd say 0.1% of patients choose a physician blindly from a list. You will get the majority of your patients from either hospital consults or referrals.

Plus, does anyone use a phonebook anymore??? Even my 70 year old grandparents use the interweb if blindly picking something (which as you pointed out, no one does ... referrals etc).

 

[Peptoboy]

Have you ever actually done this? Because if you have, you may have noticed that most phone books have a section for "physicians" and one for "osteopathic physicians"... as if DOs are not considered regular physicians. So unless you look specifically for a DO in the phonebook, you're not going to find one.

I'll ignore the lame remark about Batman and Robin. I don't know where you live but in the phone books where I live the Physicians are all listed together. So yes, I have actually looked in the phone book.

 

[ceftazidime]

I'll ignore the lame remark about Batman and Robin. I don't know where you live but in the phone books where I live the Physicians are all listed together. So yes, I have actually looked in the phone book.

Well that's good. I live in Florida. They can be a little slow here.

 

[nevinleiby]

It would be like a masters in tow with the MD ... kind of like an MD/MPH program. Just a masters in osteopathy or something.

 

[JaggerPlate]

It could be called though 'diplomat of osteopathy' though ... throw back to the roots.

 

[Fergison2]

I don't know. If a foreign trained MBBS can run around calling himself an MD after passing USMLE I, II, and III...I don't know why a domestically trained DO could not.

I agree. This really needs to be addressed. We should receive at least the same treatment as such foreign trained physicians after passing these exams.

 

[jason3278]

Maybe it would help if we had DOs, MDs, MBBS, etc. running around. (As opposed to just allowing foreign grads to use a degree they didn't earn.) It might help to convince the public that (holy crap) - there is more than one doctoral medical degree in the world.

I know that some people will say that the reason they allow MBBSs to use the MD designation is that there is no "philosophical" difference between the MD degree and the MBBS degree. That may be true, but there is also no philosophical difference between the DMD and DDS degree, or the BA and the AB degree. And yet, we wouldn't allow DMDs to call themselves DDSs, and the same for those who have earned AB or BA degrees. You should use the degree you've earned, and MBBSs have earned an MBBS, not an MD.

 

[Fergison2]

Maybe it would help if we had DOs, MDs, MBBS, etc. running around. (As opposed to just allowing foreign grads to use a degree they didn't earn.) It might help to convince the public that (holy crap) - there is more than one doctoral medical degree in the world.

I know that some people will say that the reason they allow MBBSs to use the MD designation is that there is no "philosophical" difference between the MD degree and the MBBS degree. That may be true, but there is also no philosophical difference between the DMD and DDS degree, or the BA and the AB degree. And yet, we wouldn't allow DMDs to call themselves DDSs, and the same for those who have earned AB or BA degrees. You should use the degree you've earned, and MBBSs have earned an MBBS, not an MD.

Ah, your words bring me back to the day before I began medical school. Fresh from pumping myself up with the DO difference. Before taking all of the same medical curriculum as allopaths while putting up with 8-10 hours of osteopathic education consisting of a fair amount good information, yet a good amount of faith based learning, pass the allopathic boards, get into your clinical years and perform at the level of the allopathic students.
Then go to an AGCME residency ( this step in my opinion should not be a requirment for DOs to attain an MD only passage of USMLE steps, because we should open up these residencies to allopaths anyway) with allopaths and learn for 5 more years along side them as one of them ( a resident physician) I'll graduate from that with the same level of expertise. Yet for the rest of my career my degree will not reflect this to the public. Wait until you get into your clinical years and see how the two degrees are perceived by patients, support staff, mid levels and colleagues. But until then, good luck with the DO difference.

 

[spicedmanna]

I agree. This really needs to be addressed. We should receive at least the same treatment as such foreign trained physicians after passing these exams.

FMG's don't have the AOA to contend with. If you want to implement what you are talking about, you'd have to find a way to get around the AOA, because I don't think they'd like that idea and my guess is that they'd resist it.

 

[jason3278]

Ah, your words bring me back to the day before I began medical school. Fresh from pumping myself up with the DO difference. Before taking all of the same medical curriculum as allopaths while putting up with 8-10 hours of osteopathic education consisting of a fair amount good information, yet a good amount of faith based learning, pass the allopathic boards, get into your clinical years and perform at the level of the allopathic students.
Then go to an AGCME residency ( this step in my opinion should not be a requirment for DOs to attain an MD only passage of USMLE steps, because we should open up these residencies to allopaths anyway) with allopaths and learn for 5 more years along side them as one of them ( a resident physician) I'll graduate from that with the same level of expertise. Yet for the rest of my career my degree will not reflect this to the public. Wait until you get into your clinical years and see how the two degrees are perceived by patients, support staff, mid levels and colleagues. But until then, good luck with the DO difference.

You're not understanding what I'm saying. I'm not hung up on the "DO-Difference". Not at all. I don't know where you get that from at all.

Thanks for talking down to me though. Did it make you feel like a bigshot medical student, talking down to the naive pre-med? I wish I were you.

 

[J1515]

Wait until you get into your clinical years and see how the two degrees are perceived by patients, support staff, mid levels and colleagues.

They were perceived exactly the same at all my hospitals.

 

[Fergison2]

You're not understanding what I'm saying. I'm not hung up on the "DO-Difference". Not at all. I don't know where you get that from at all.

Thanks for talking down to me though. Did it make you feel like a bigshot medical student, talking down to the naive pre-med? I wish I were you.

Don't worry Jason. You will be one day.

 

[Peptoboy]

Ah, your words bring me back to the day before I began medical school. Fresh from pumping myself up with the DO difference. Before taking all of the same medical curriculum as allopaths while putting up with 8-10 hours of osteopathic education consisting of a fair amount good information, yet a good amount of faith based learning, pass the allopathic boards, get into your clinical years and perform at the level of the allopathic students.
Then go to an AGCME residency ( this step in my opinion should not be a requirment for DOs to attain an MD only passage of USMLE steps, because we should open up these residencies to allopaths anyway) with allopaths and learn for 5 more years along side them as one of them ( a resident physician) I'll graduate from that with the same level of expertise. Yet for the rest of my career my degree will not reflect this to the public. Wait until you get into your clinical years and see how the two degrees are perceived by patients, support staff, mid levels and colleagues. But until then, good luck with the DO difference.

WOW! Sounds like someone is really bitter at the fact that he is going to be a fully licensed physician in the United States.

 

[BobBarker]

Things are heating up back on the presidents blog.
FYI, I'm not posting over there. Some people on here know my real name, and it matches up with the username of one of the guys who is getting after Dr. DiMarco pretty hard. It's not me.

http://blogs.do-online.org/aoapresident.php

 

[aimee21]

Yet for the rest of my career my degree will not reflect this to the public. Wait until you get into your clinical years and see how the two degrees are perceived by patients, support staff, mid levels and colleagues.

Where are you doing your rotations because I certainly don't want to go there.

I've shadowed both DOs and MDs in hospitals and they were treated the same. In fact, when I was introduced to their colleagues, they didn't even mention the degree, just introduced someone as Dr. so-and-so. The only way to determine the difference was to look at their name tags. And all the doctors I've talked to have said the degree doesn't matter to any them, only a physician's ability to treat his/her patients.

As to the patients, in my experience they don't care what your degree is as long as you can treat them. The one DO I shadowed said it the best - he told me that if anyone asks what DO means just tell them "physician" and they are quite happy.

 

[Flushot]

Things are heating up back on the presidents blog.
FYI, I'm not posting over there. Some people on here know my real name, and it matches up with the username of one of the guys who is getting after Dr. DiMarco pretty hard. It's not me.

http://blogs.do-online.org/aoapresident.php

Thanks for the update. It was also interesting to read that article he linked. I suggest people skim through that too if you have the time.