Calling DOs/MDs alike, the AOA/AMA, Student Doctors

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DO Down

DO Down

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Calling all DOs/MDs alike, the AOA/AMA, Student Doctors - and those who have yet to matriculate but care for the profession and practice of medicine:

We are in desperate need of your help, your voice, and your support.

What we all feared would happen has occured - and sooner than expected.

There have been many recent changes at RVUCOM. We have all been deceived by nothing more than a "bait and switch" scheme. We must make our stand - our voices heard - NOW. The financier of RVUCOM (Yife Tien) has reared his deceptive head and has terminated the Board of Trustees composed of prominent Osteopathic Physicians for the sole purpose of removing Dean Ronnie Martin after a failed faculty vote - and a unanimous physician vote by the board to retain Dean Martin. The only way for Yife Tien to underhandedly remove the dean was to get rid of the Board of Trustees at the urging of only a select few (literally 3) faculty professors who didn't like the direction of their dean or the Board of Trustees. It was a "power grab" by nothing more than deceitful "employees" who somehow gained the upperhand by threatening to resign. The corporate structure allowed this type of posturing - a true, autonomous Board of Trustees composed of physicians could have prevented this type of manipulation by one business man. This faculty minority - as well as Yife Tien, did not consider the repercussions of terminating a board of regional physicians and treating them with so little respect. Nor did they consider what this would mean to their students and the community.

In the process, these disgruntled professors deceitfully threw their weight around through threats of resignation and Yife Tien chose to listen because he now saw something to gain, and even sooner than he anticipated. Yife Tien has spit in the face of Osteopathic Medicine and has revelealed his true desire to make all the calls regarding the direction of RVUCOM. This minority of greedy professors - along with "chancellor" Tien, have not considered the welfare of the students, and evidently have not considered the timeline of revealing their true intent. They've severely underestimated our power AS STUDENTS and PHYSICIANS to make a stand in the face of their deceitful practices. Our interests as students are no longer being protected or guided by regional physicians here in Colorado, but rather by two professors who sit but briefly on their thrones as "interim" deans of OUR medical school. These professors are from other states who left their previous teaching positions under suspicious circumstances, details of which will come to light momentarily and are sure to be expounded by their former students and colleagues. They are capable teachers but are complicit in this plot by Yife Tien and his lapdog lawyer, Mr. Black. It's quite obvious that their motives have been unjust and the plans of Yife Tien and this minority leadership, devoid of integrity and foresight, will never come to fruition.

Many students had not heard about the issues surrounding the financing of RVUCOM until we had already agreed to attend and now we have been deceived. The JAOA articles from Dean Ronnie Martin and Dr. Mychaskiw were of benefit but the intent is now clear as to where Yife Tien - and his lawyer, Mr. Black, currently stand. Mr. Black spoke at our school two days ago and laid out the latest happenings without detail and only succeeded in emphasizing the deceptive intent behind the direction of the school. They underestimated our foresight as students as well as our power to unite. The veiled threats the new "coporate heirarchy" laid before us were not welcomed nor were they effective. We as students are not so selfish to fear only for our futures (which is what they had hoped). We understand that we must stand up for the direction of our medical school as well as the future of medicine.

I'm a medical student and I'm not ashamed to admit that we need to be rescued. We are tired and weary with only a few weeks remaining in our first year. However, we are not too weak to fight this injustice - we will hold steady. We care about the direction of medicine and hope you join us in this fight. We cannot do it alone and with no direction or physician oversight outside of our immediate faculty and "interim deans". We are at risk of being inappropriately influenced and forced to suffer in silence to benefit big business. We absolutely WILL NOT walk in silence, devoid of conscious and constantly in fear.

Our training prior to the untimely departure of Dean Ronnie Martin -AND- our esteemed board of physicians was exceptional based on all accounts and as viewed by our early shadowing preceptors (community physicians). Based on this latest move and the voices of the physicians in the community, our future education without a shadow of a doubt, is in jeopardy. So is the future face of medicine, if we don't stop this now.

The physicians of Colorado and the Mountain West will not stand silent either.

I wholeheartedly ask for you all to stand strong with us. Please help our voices be heard. Help influence the AOA to step in with our regional physicians to monitor and see that changes from the very top to the very bottom are made in light of these unjust developments. Please help protect our interest and investment as future representatives of medicine. We have near 100 signatures - with more to come, of students asking for the AOA to intervene. Only a very few are fearful of faculty retribution. The vast majority of students support this move and the documents have been submitted or are en route to the AOA and other representatives requesting intervention. Let's set this right together. Please help PHYSICIAN BOARDS, local physicians, and not corporate suits and their greed guide our new school.

Perhaps with the voice of SDN, the strong involvement and oversight of the AOA, and the support of physicians and medical students far and wide, we can rid our shores of this corporate structure and greed once and for all. Let's close the doors on this model now - before accreditation is even considered. Deep pockets will not prevail over principle and integrity.

Please extend your hands and voices to us for immediate rescue. Please encourage and hold the AOA accountable to fulfill their mission and duty by protecting the medical student.

We are in desperate need of your support - right now.
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If you had such concerns prior to matriculation, you should not have chosen to attend RVU in the first place.
 
Hello - Dr. Kim, is it? To answer your question, unfortunately, I was not aware prior. My subscription to the JAOA came after matriculation (enrollment in the AOA) and I was not aware of SDN until now. I was urged by my DO physician mentors to serve this area and they were not aware of this either - or I'm sure they would have disclosed. There are quite a few students in the same boat. I was hoping not to be judged in the error of our ways and I hope this doesnt override our right to request help.

I think this can be fixed with the intervention of the AOA and the support of people like you. We can set a new precedent and ensure this doesn't happen again - nor will there ever be another opportunity for this deceptive model. It's not too late as far as I can tell. Yife Tien still needs quite a bit from the AOA and the community physicians (and the students) to make this a success, so he and his lawyers are not yet in complete control.

With all due respect and without the current student majority who are vehemently against this scheme that has now become apparent, I don't see how Tien and these lawyers can obtain accreditation for this model. Student education is now in jeopardy without the support of the community physicians and hospitals as I mentioned in the previous post. I'm hoping the AOA and the widespread voice of physicians and student physicians will foster a new justice. Perhaps Dr. Mychaskiw's patience and steadfast efforts against this model will be rewarded. Maybe it will turn out that it was only a matter of time before the AOA realized the error of it's ways - and will understand that provisional means just what it says, provisional - and not a "done deal".

Perhaps with a realization that accreditation will not be as completely successful as originally planned and the existing infrastructure - including existing students and those set to matriculate, we will be acquired by another osteopathic school or physician group. The local physician community wants the school here in this area and have been very active in lecturing and preceptor guidance already - they are in full support but I'm certain they feel torn between the principle behind Tien's recent wrongful actions and their desire to educate the students.

I think we can foster change and ensure that the community is once again pleased with the direction and we can continue on our mission to serve the Colorado and the Mountain West if we see this through while there's still leverage: a student lack of support of this move and rapid intervention by the AOA as was previously laid out as insurance to protect student interests.
 
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DO Down said:
Calling all DOs/MDs alike, the AOA/AMA, Student Doctors - and those who have yet to matriculate but care for the profession and practice of medicine:
Deep pockets will not prevail over principle and integrity.

Please extend your hands and voices to us for immediate rescue. Please encourage and hold the AOA accountable to fulfill their mission and duty by protecting the medical student.

We are in desperate need of your support - right now.
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Are you seriously attempting to make an argument that "Deep Pockets" will not prevail at an institution founded solely for the purpose of making its shareholders (Tien) money? :laugh:

Sorry, but Tien is clearly and unequivocally a greedy piece of human garbage that has soiled osteopathic medicine on a national scale worse than even the cranial quack Viola Frymann, not that the AOA/OCOCA made any attempt to stop it.

I hope for the greater good of our profession that Tien goes asystole, Rocky Vista tanks like ENRON, and our current national leaders get replaced by pod people who may have a better idea of how to represent the profession. :xf:
 
hooperg said:
Are you seriously attempting to make an argument that "Deep Pockets" will not prevail at an institution founded solely for the purpose of making its shareholders (Tien) money? :laugh:

Sorry, but Tien is clearly and unequivocally a greedy piece of human garbage that has soiled osteopathic medicine on a national scale worse than even the cranial quack Viola Frymann, not that the AOA/OCOCA made any attempt to stop it.

I hope for the greater good of our profession that Tien goes asystole, Rocky Vista tanks like ENRON, and our current national leaders get replaced by pod people who may have a better idea of how to represent the profession. :xf:
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Well, that'd be extreme but not wholly undesirable. I think we might be able to make out better if we can foster a change from the top - backed by the AOA, and still have a school of medicine in this region that's structured traditionally with a board of physicians and purchased by a state school or run as a satellite branch of another osteopathic school (with rebranding a must). The community support and teaching physicians are in place - the rotations and residencies were being generated but this move I've described will undermine everything and leaves certain KEY faculty physicians and outside physicians in limbo and largely disgraced.

The AOA has been informed just yesterday - even though the interim deans made a desperate leap to plead their case last week to the AOA regarding the "corporate re-structuring" and our "stability". The AOA has yet to hear from students and the local physicians and I think they'll be bound to listen and intervene. I just wanted to let everyone know that we can still put a stop to this structure - student education and our futures are without a doubt at stake.
 
DO Down said:
Well, that'd be extreme but not wholly undesirable. I think we might be able to make out better if we can foster a change from the top - backed by the AOA, and still have a school of medicine in this region that's structured traditionally with a board of physicians and purchased by a state school or run as a satellite branch of another osteopathic school (with rebranding a must). The community support and teaching physicians are in place - the rotations and residencies were being generated but this move I've described will undermine everything and leaves certain KEY faculty physicians and outside physicians in limbo and largely disgraced.

The AOA has been informed just yesterday - even though the interim deans made a desperate leap to plead their case last week to the AOA regarding the "corporate re-structuring" and our "stability". The AOA has yet to hear from students and the local physicians and I think they'll be bound to listen and intervene. I just wanted to let everyone know that we can still put a stop to this structure - student education and our futures are without a doubt at stake.
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Sir/Ma'am, I really do feel for you. I'm sure by and large your student body has good people with medicine and their patients' best at heart. However, I would strongly suggest transferring somewhere else if it is within your means.

Best of luck in your career. Rock the boards.
 
Don't feed the enterprise and it dies. Walk away; transfer to another school. Hopefully, the existing schools could band together to accept all of RVU's students. After it collapses, some more ethical group might be able to assume receivership of a traditional non-profit.
The profession was able to pressure TCOM about the MD degree issue. Let's see if the AOA/COCA are up to the task. I challenge them to step up and act by immediately suspending RVUCOM's accreditation.
 
You should post this on pre-allo. Those people will sign any petition.
 
DO Down, you asked for feedback from everyone. I always try to be very careful in the osteopathic areas because: 1) I respect my osteopathic brethren, and 2) I consider myself a guest in this area. Obviously, you've had a bad experience with the politics at Rocky Vista and you are very upset - justifiably, from what you're telling us.

But - what would you have us do, especially those of us on the allopathic side? We all screamed "foul" over the idea of a for-profit medical school within the continental United States. Most of us were absolutely appalled. The LCME strengthed accreditation requirements so that such a thing could never happen on the allopathic side.

One of the best osteopathic schools anywhere is in my home state. I certainly would have been proud to go there. One of the things that argued against osteopathic medicine, in my mind, was the AOA and some of their odd opinions and positions. And, when the Rocky Vista issue came up, it was the AOA who told us that for-profit would not be a problem, that we were a bunch a nervous Nellies and that we needed to get into the 21st Century and understand "more modern business models that couldn't have been conceived when the Flexner Report was written in 1910 (my rough paraphrase from memory)."

I don't see what those of us on the allopathic side can do. Osteopathic medicine is a sovereign branch of the medical profession. Perhaps this will finally anger enough osteopathic physicians and students to get some serious changes at AOA - I know it's been talked about for a long time but perhaps this time something will happen. It's your profession, your professional umbrella organization, and it's the D.O.'s - and only the D.O.'s - who can really do something about this. I certainly wish the best to those who desire change.
 
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A mass of students has looked into transferring but it is not possible for two reasons as far as I can tell:

1. The common-place policy for most medical schools is not to accept transfers until the third year; most medical schools need to have board scores to ensure level instruction. However, some may compare the curriculum directly - which would be welcomed. We are also very unlikely to get an unbiased Dean's Letter as would be required from the new interim regime.

2. With provisional accreditation, the faculty and lawyers applying the student stranglehold have commented that we have no recourse for transfer without receiving full accreditation.

They know we're nothing more than student hostages and they are using it as leverage. We're trapped.

You're right, they've forgotten who keeps their lights on and sets the tone for the future. I also know that most medical students - although young and focused on board preparation, surprisingly have their eyes on the future and a hope for our profession backed by integrity. This fact was evidenced yesterday by our near 100 signatures requesting that the AOA intervene. We've yet to lay our playing hand down on the table and although cornered, are not merely weak students under the thumb of a corporate entity who disrespects the medical community that welcomed them with open arms; a community who they depend on for guest lecturers, early preceptor training opportunities, and clinical rotations.

I'm proud that the vast majority of my classmates are brave and unafraid to make a stand against the unjust. We owe it to those students who are matriculating as well as the profession as a whole. I hope that the AOA sees through the mask of the new structure and the false words of reassurance that Tien's new representatives spoke earlier this week and in haste.

We students are depending on the AOA to hear our desperate pleas and to act swiftly.
 
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hooperg said:
not that the AOA/OCOCA made any attempt to stop it.
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AMA/LCME would never have allowed this. What an embarrassing situation. Unfortunately RVU will always have someone willing to fill a seat.

OP- Sorry to hear all of this occurred. Sounds like a very sticky situation. I wish you the best. It sounds like the whole thing should be shut down before more damage is done.
 
Non-TradTulsa said:
I don't see what those of us on the allopathic side can do. Osteopathic medicine is a sovereign branch of the medical profession. Perhaps this will finally anger enough osteopathic physicians and students to get some serious changes at AOA - I know it's been talked about for a long time but perhaps this time something will happen. It's your profession, your professional umbrella organization, and it's the D.O.'s - and only the D.O.'s - who can really do something about this. I certainly wish the best to those who desire change.
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I agree. This falls on the AOA. The allopathic side has nothing to do with the faulty system that is in place for DOs. As you said the AMA/LCME made certain restrictions/requirements which prevent this. It's a shame AOA/COCA didn't follow suit.
 
Cp22kjer said:
AMA/LCME would never have allowed this. What an embarrassing situation. Unfortunately RVU will always have someone willing to fill a seat.

OP- Sorry to hear all of this occurred. Sounds like a very sticky situation. I wish you the best. It sounds like the whole thing should be shut down before more damage is done.
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Thank you for your thoughts. I'm hoping that for the sake of my fellow medical students here that we can earn an interest from a state school, or another osteopathic school looking for a satellite campus to continue our medical education (of course, after the AOA intervenes).

This community of physicians here in Colorado has truly been great to us as students and the student consensus is that we owe them. It's evident that they love to teach and have given so unselfishly because they wholeheartedly want us to contribute and serve here as student doctors. Aside from this structuring move, the fact that these physicians are being pushed aside, terminated, and disgraced - is simply unacceptable and the student majority absolutely will not stand for it.
 
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There may be ways to transfer medical students in extreme circumstances. I remember back when Hurricane Katrina hit, students (even med students) going to schools like Tulane got transferred to other places. I remember one student who graduated from my undergraduate school had matriculated at Tulane, but due to the hurricane... got transferred to Harvard Med. (Pretty cool!) Maybe if there is enough of a student outcry over the situation, the AOA can make exceptions for the students at RVU to be absorbed by all the other osteopathic medical schools despite pre-existing transfer policies at those places.
 
rkaz said:
There may be ways to transfer medical students in extreme circumstances. I remember back when Hurricane Katrina hit, students (even med students) going to schools like Tulane got transferred to other places. I remember one student who graduated from my undergraduate school had matriculated at Tulane, but due to the hurricane... got transferred to Harvard Med. (Pretty cool!) Maybe if there is enough of a student outcry over the situation, the AOA can make exceptions for the students at RVU to be absorbed by all the other osteopathic medical schools despite pre-existing transfer policies at those places.
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I thought they just did everything at the Texas Medical Center in Houston when the hurricane hit.
 
Cp22kjer said:
I agree. This falls on the AOA. The allopathic side has nothing to do with the faulty system that is in place for DOs. As you said the AMA/LCME made certain restrictions/requirements which prevent this. It's a shame AOA/COCA didn't follow suit.
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Apparently it's more complex than that. Consider the reply by theraball in this thread:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=8088901&postcount=79

"I've listened to, and conversed with, the incoming AOA president regarding the for-profit school issue, and your statement that they have "not put forth one iota of opposition" to it is not quite right. They were very opposed to the idea but have been basically forced to accept the school or else allow the school to obtain its accreditation from another agency. This was the choice COCA was given, and they decided on the lesser of two evils--to keep the school under their purview. Obviously, politics has played a role here. I don't like the for-profit idea either, but it's not accurate to say the AOA just shooed them in."

He never replied to me to say just what that other agency was, but if the AOA chose to keep it under their purview, now is their chance to act.

DO Down, you might want to read about Seminex. The "Seminary in Exile" is when students and faculty walked out of the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod's seminary in St. Louis after their president was suspended. It's not exactly parallel (the AOA didn't fire Dean Martin), and I don't support what they did (their theology), but it is instructive and might give you some ideas.

Good luck!
 
It is unfortunate to hear that there is turmoil and uncertainty at RVUCOM. I really hate it for all of the students who have placed their futures in the hands of a greedy few.

I am convinced, however, that your rescue will not come from COCA or the AOA. I recently had the opportunity to take part in my school's site visit, and was able to have lunch and speak with the site visitors. I can say, based upon that meeting, that COCA has no desire to hear negative things. During the meeting they continuously made excuses for deficiencies (that have existed for years) pointed out by students. And don't think for one minute that a problem with your dean is going to be enough to raise red flags with COCA. The school I attend has suffered from an inordinate amount of faculty turnover, and the several faculty with whom I have spoken all cite the dean as the primary reason for leaving. Recently a faculty member told me that the dean even went so far as to tell him what type of clinical medicine he would practice during his protected clinical time. :scared: In short, it's either the dean's way or the highway and academic freedom is non-existent. Does COCA care? No. I also doubt that COCA will take action, and, therefore, admit that RVUCOM is a failed model. As far as the AOA is concerned, they will probably defer everything to COCA (so refer to my previous comments).

I also doubt that students will be able to transfer. First, and foremost, all schools require a letter of good standing from the DEAN. If your account of what is going on is an accurate picture of their personalities, I doubt they would write such a letter.

I hate to be the messenger of bad news, but I do wish for a speedy and positive resolution for you.
 
Styria said:
They were very opposed to the idea but have been basically forced to accept the school or else allow the school to obtain its accreditation from another agency. This was the choice COCA was given, and they decided on the lesser of two evils--to keep the school under their purview.
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If this is really what the incoming president of the AOA said, then I will be the first to call :bullcrap:

There are two accrediting agencies in the U.S. for medical schools that are recognized by state licensing boards: LCME and COCA. We all know LCME doesn't accredit for-profits. I just can't believe that the incoming president of the AOA really said this. COCA and the AOA knew exactly what they were doing, and they were criticized for it the entire way.
 
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DOinMS said:
It is unfortunate to hear that there is turmoil and uncertainty at RVUCOM. I really hate it for all of the students who have placed their futures in the hands of a greedy few.

I am convinced, however, that your rescue will not come from COCA or the AOA. I recently had the opportunity to take part in my school's site visit, and was able to have lunch and speak with the site visitors. I can say, based upon that meeting, that COCA has no desire to hear negative things. During the meeting they continuously made excuses for deficiencies (that have existed for years) pointed out by students. And don't think for one minute that a problem with your dean is going to be enough to raise red flags with COCA. The school I attend has suffered from an inordinate amount of faculty turnover, and the several faculty with whom I have spoken all cite the dean as the primary reason for leaving. Recently a faculty member told me that the dean even went so far as to tell him what type of clinical medicine he would practice during his protected clinical time. :scared: In short, it's either the dean's way or the highway and academic freedom is non-existent. Does COCA care? No. I also doubt that COCA will take action, and, therefore, admit that RVUCOM is a failed model. As far as the AOA is concerned, they will probably defer everything to COCA (so refer to my previous comments).

I also doubt that students will be able to transfer. First, and foremost, all schools require a letter of good standing from the DEAN. If your account of what is going on is an accurate picture of their personalities, I doubt they would write such a letter.

I hate to be the messenger of bad news, but I do wish for a speedy and positive resolution for you.
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The highlighted portion above is definitely not the situation. We are not asking the AOA/COCA to intervene because we are "upset" about the departure of Dean Martin (some are/some aren't). We are witnessing the bigger picture from the inside and there are many more problems in the wake - and even more at stake for our education.

We have a petition with 100 signatures asking the AOA and COCA for help because of what's transpired during these recent events - and more importantly, the way in which it is currently transpiring. These events include the "firing" of the entire Board of Trustees (regional and influential physicians) with no justification and to target the former dean after two failed votes (faculty AND board votes).

In addition, there was a power grab in the void created by certain faculty and yet other importnat faculty and department chairs are no longer there, are being terminated for supporting the former board/dean, or are virtually in limbo. All of these factors I've detailed compromise a continuing issue with regard to quality education (especially with our rotations and the promised residencies for all osteopathic students nationwide). The image of DOs in this area has not improved based on these actions, either. In fact, if we don't address and correct this issue quickly and with resolve, osteopathic medicine will have taken an even bigger step backwards in this region.

It's fact that some faculty (the majority) still hang in limbo - some cannot voice concern out for fear for their jobs since there's no longer a true, unbiased board in place to evalute the circumstances surrounding any particular situation. The physicians here in this region do not want to harm the students necessarily, but I can assure you that the students here will become collateral damage as physicians and the community will be less inclined to welcome our presence. Based on principle alone (how the Board of Physicians was treated and how things are unfolding) the physicians in the community who would have previously assisted with continuing medical education, as well as with rotations and residencies, will not be as supportive - and I can hardly hold it against them.

We stand with the physicians who have, and hopefully will continue to be, an integral part of our ongoing medical education in their hospital systems and their practices. They also lecture often at our medical school. We students can't do any of this without the support of the local physicians and they aren't happy with Tien's unjust moves as of late and it's impact on the students and the community.

We've been tarnished in the region as a result of these injustices toward the community and the medical professionals here and that's what's driving the widespread student cries for AOA intervention. Our futures ARE indeeed at risk unless we get this medical school on the right track - and with haste.
 
I hope RVU fail and its students get to transfer. RVU is a disgrace of our educational system.
 
DO Down said:
A mass of students has looked into transferring but it is not possible for two reasons as far as I can tell:

1. The common-place policy for most medical schools is not to accept transfers until the third year; most medical schools need to have board scores to ensure level instruction. However, some may compare the curriculum directly - which would be welcomed. We are also very unlikely to get an unbiased Dean's Letter as would be required from the new interim regime.

2. With provisional accreditation, the faculty and lawyers applying the student stranglehold have commented that we have no recourse for transfer without receiving full accreditation.

They know we're nothing more than student hostages and they are using it as leverage. We're trapped.

You're right, they've forgotten who keeps their lights on and sets the tone for the future. I also know that most medical students - although young and focused on board preparation, surprisingly have their eyes on the future and a hope for our profession backed by integrity. This fact was evidenced yesterday by our near 100 signatures requesting that the AOA intervene. We've yet to lay our playing hand down on the table and although cornered, are not merely weak students under the thumb of a corporate entity who disrespects the medical community that welcomed them with open arms; a community who they depend on for guest lecturers, early preceptor training opportunities, and clinical rotations.

I'm proud that the vast majority of my classmates are brave and unafraid to make a stand against the unjust. We owe it to those students who are matriculating as well as the profession as a whole. I hope that the AOA sees through the mask of the new structure and the false words of reassurance that Tien's new representatives spoke earlier this week and in haste.

We students are depending on the AOA to hear our desperate pleas and to act swiftly.
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Transferring would be hard, because not every school does their curriculum the same way. Some places go in a different order, or do certain things the first year that other schools don't get to until second year, and vice-versa.
 
After seeing what the OP has written, it is my impression that he/she does not so much wish to transfer, but is hoping that the AOA strips RVU of accreditation and has another osteopathic college utilize the school as an alternate campus... converting it to non-profit status. For instance, schools like Midwestern University, Touro, PCOM, LECOM, have 2 or more campuses/sister colleges. I'm not sure, however, that anyone has the power to 'take away' RVU from the Tien, since it is HIS business venture. However, maybe if they could make it fail somehow, then maybe it could be bought over by another osteopathic college to be made into another medical campus.

I'm not sure if any of this is possible or likely to happen... just musing though.
 
Styria said:
They were very opposed to the idea but have been basically forced to accept the school or else allow the school to obtain its accreditation from another agency. This was the choice COCA was given, and they decided on the lesser of two evils--to keep the school under their purview.
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Interesting post, thanks.

Forgive my lack of understanding but what other agency are they referring to? The only other one I can think of is the LCME, which certainly would have shot this down.
 
DO Anes said:
The profession was able to pressure TCOM about the MD degree issue. Let's see if the AOA/COCA are up to the task. I challenge them to step up and act by immediately suspending RVUCOM's accreditation.
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I suspect that crowd of sarcophagus dwellers that calls itself the AOA was far more alarmed about the prospect of TCOM granting the dreaded MD degree than they would be by RVU's selling an entire generation of DOs into slavery. As for you first years at RVU who are waiting for them to ride to the rescue, you don't really understand how dysfunctional the AOA is.

I'm sorry for the OP personally - he/she should try transferring elsewhere. Immediately.
 
this must be very tough on the current RVU students to hear this intense criticism. true or not... i puts a cloud on their school. Personally, i would not consider a for profit med school, but i am sure there are some that had rvu as their #1 choice and I truly hope everything works out for them. I would love nothing better than for the current students to silence the criticism by becoming good physicians.
 
DO Down said:
I'm proud that the vast majority of my classmates are brave and unafraid to make a stand against the unjust. We owe it to those students who are matriculating as well as the profession as a whole. I hope that the AOA sees through the mask of the new structure and the false words of reassurance that Tien's new representatives spoke earlier this week and in haste.

We students are depending on the AOA to hear our desperate pleas and to act swiftly.
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Out of curiousity, having taken this course of action, how do you think your dean's letter is going to read when you reach fourth year and apply to residency? IF you reach fourth year and apply to residency?

Listen, you are at a for profit *company*. One where there are far more customers than product. Customer service doesn't exist under this circumstance. You need to protect your future as a student and go elsewhere.

...and this should be an instructive thread for anyone considering enrolling there next year.
 
could you repost the letter here?
 
In the words of Sublime:

Red lights flashin' time to retire
We turned that for-profit med school into a structure fire....
 
Whoa guys, wait just a second.

When RVU first came out, many threads came against it, with dissenting voices, led by Dr. M.

These were routinely shut down or moved by SDN mods due to the whining of RVU admits.

This is the BEST news I've heard all week. RVU not only put osteopathic medicine at risk, but medicine as a whole at risk: The shutting down of RVU would be a big win for doctors.

If you're an OMS 1 there: Sorry. You need to cut your losses and run. Who do you think will take you into a decent residency program out of there? If you're about to start OMS 1 there, and you've already put down a deposit: Cut your losses and run. Don't feed the fire with your money.
 
I feel bad for the students caught up in this mess, but there was a reason everyone was so against this school opening in the first place.
 
DO Down,

Where can we get a copy of the letter that was sent to the AOA/COCA? Public disclosure/transparency?

What do you plan on doing when the AOA/COCA does not act on your letter? I'm not a betting man, but I bet AOA/COCA will not act.

*Poof!* You suddenly have powers! How do you fix this situation?

I find the lack of transparency to be the biggest issue on this matter, for example I would love to know why the fired board members voted against removing Martin. Perhaps you can contact them and find out why. I would also like to see incorporated into the Bylaws of the school, or other appropriate place, protocols put into place so that this cannot happen again. The allegations and actions taken by Iowa against Martin have long since evolved away from the small stuff. Also, what is the role of the board of trustees? Is it just for show or does it have influence over the chancellor? How long are vacant seats allowed to be left empty? How are disputes handled?

I guess overall I see this as a dispute among the AOA Party members, way above our heads. My greatest priority right now is to focus on completing Level 1 COMLEX while the AOA decides what they want to do. This isn't a matter that will happen quickly.

I wish the new Deans luck in extracting us from this situation, that's not so much kissing up to them as it is my own desire to lower the drama, infighting and distractions while at school. As the dust has begun to settle I am cautiously optimistic that my primary goal can still be met at RVU, to gain a medical education. There are still unknowns to be sure.

To the new students who are planning on attending RVU in the fall... It sounds like the owner is committed to keeping the school going, so just keep your eyes open and educate yourself. There are risks associated with new schools and RVU has a few others tacked on; don't be naive and be blindly lead to believe that there are not risks. Consider the benefits and weigh them with the risks. I choose RVU because of it's location in Denver, I'm a local so I didn't have to move. I canceled my other DO interviews when I was accepted to RVU because the benefits out weighed the risks. They still do. I've heard some students talking about transferring but I think that when class starts we will have lost only a very few students. I'll be surprised if it's more than 5 or 10%. People are very passionate right now and worried, that can make people say, or sign, things they haven't fully thought about yet.

Part of transparency is allowing dissenting voices to be heard; even in public places like Student Doctor Network. To disallow students and professors their intellectual freedom along with the ability to speak out is to deny one of the pathognomonic traits of a university. RVU benefits not just from hearing criticism but through its evolution in response to the 'peer review'. I for one would like to see the following changes:
1. The Board of Trustees to have more autonomy from the Chancellor, so that it cannot be sacked when there is disagreement.
2. More transparency in the matters that affect the students as wells as the faculty. For example, what clinical sites have completely committed to taking on students during their third and fourth years? How many rotations will students be solely responsible, if any, to set up on our own?
3. Board meetings be open to the RVU community, much like a Public School Board meeting. If the meetings become open and students and faculty are allowed to hear and be heard, then students are less likely to turn to other forums, like SDN.

I've written too much here and need to refocus on my Robbin's so I won't write a conclusion, feel free to mark down my essay grade appropriately. I'm sure I'll catch grief about this tomorrow anyways, but SDN provides a forum that we don't otherwise. If not here, then where?

-Ignis
 
I truly hope that RVU will fail, but unfortunately, this tragedy will be placed on the students.

scenario 1: AOA come down to RVU, disaccredit the school, students transfer, best scenario, really, but unlikely.

scenario 2: school continues operation, owner of the school begin to extract fund at increasing pace, cutting corners everywhere while attempting to produce a school that focus on getting students to the best residencies with least amount of money spent on education.

this results in a school that essentially become a big USMLE prep class.

also, I predict outrageous hike in tuition because current students are essentially trapped. They may have a hard time transfer due to the dean, now controlled by the business man, can do harm to the applicant.

I predict the tuition per year end up becoming 60k-80k alone.

When match time comes, RVU students will most likely have very bad results with the allopathic residencies, due to the double stigma of both being caribean-equivalent and DO.

I doubt many DO residencies will choose RVU candidates if there are other equal candidates available, and I doubt that among all those turmoil, RVU students will be prepared very well.

In summary, RVU will eventually fail and the foremost victims will be its students.

DO NOT ATTEND RVU, TRANSFER OUT IF YOU HAVE A CHANCE.
 
IgnisDU said:
DO Down,

Where can we get a copy of the letter that was sent to the AOA/COCA? Public disclosure/transparency?

What do you plan on doing when the AOA/COCA does not act on your letter? I'm not a betting man, but I bet AOA/COCA will not act.

*Poof!* You suddenly have powers! How do you fix this situation?

I find the lack of transparency to be the biggest issue on this matter, for example I would love to know why the fired board members voted against removing Martin. Perhaps you can contact them and find out why. I would also like to see incorporated into the Bylaws of the school, or other appropriate place, protocols put into place so that this cannot happen again. The allegations and actions taken by Iowa against Martin have long since evolved away from the small stuff. Also, what is the role of the board of trustees? Is it just for show or does it have influence over the chancellor? How long are vacant seats allowed to be left empty? How are disputes handled?

I guess overall I see this as a dispute among the AOA Party members, way above our heads. My greatest priority right now is to focus on completing Level 1 COMLEX while the AOA decides what they want to do. This isn't a matter that will happen quickly.

I wish the new Deans luck in extracting us from this situation, that's not so much kissing up to them as it is my own desire to lower the drama, infighting and distractions while at school. As the dust has begun to settle I am cautiously optimistic that my primary goal can still be met at RVU, to gain a medical education. There are still unknowns to be sure.

To the new students who are planning on attending RVU in the fall... It sounds like the owner is committed to keeping the school going, so just keep your eyes open and educate yourself. There are risks associated with new schools and RVU has a few others tacked on; don't be naive and be blindly lead to believe that there are not risks. Consider the benefits and weigh them with the risks. I choose RVU because of it's location in Denver, I'm a local so I didn't have to move. I canceled my other DO interviews when I was accepted to RVU because the benefits out weighed the risks. They still do. I've heard some students talking about transferring but I think that when class starts we will have lost only a very few students. I'll be surprised if it's more than 5 or 10%. People are very passionate right now and worried, that can make people say, or sign, things they haven't fully thought about yet.

Part of transparency is allowing dissenting voices to be heard; even in public places like Student Doctor Network. To disallow students and professors their intellectual freedom along with the ability to speak out is to deny one of the pathognomonic traits of a university. RVU benefits not just from hearing criticism but through its evolution in response to the 'peer review'. I for one would like to see the following changes:
1. The Board of Trustees to have more autonomy from the Chancellor, so that it cannot be sacked when there is disagreement.
2. More transparency in the matters that affect the students as wells as the faculty. For example, what clinical sites have completely committed to taking on students during their third and fourth years? How many rotations will students be solely responsible, if any, to set up on our own?
3. Board meetings be open to the RVU community, much like a Public School Board meeting. If the meetings become open and students and faculty are allowed to hear and be heard, then students are less likely to turn to other forums, like SDN.

I've written too much here and need to refocus on my Robbin's so I won't write a conclusion, feel free to mark down my essay grade appropriately. I'm sure I'll catch grief about this tomorrow anyways, but SDN provides a forum that we don't otherwise. If not here, then where?

-Ignis
Click to expand...

You loved to use the word public disclosure and public discourse, but here's my problem with RVU, along with most of the medical establishment.

RVU is a business. There need not, and in deed, most likely will not be public disclosure to anyone because that make sense to the business.

The owner may be committed to keep the school going in order to continue to FATTEN HIS WALLET.

What does that mean?

It means admitting subpar applicants as RVU falls lower and lower down the list of reputable choice for medical education.

It means extracting money from students and run the school down to the ground when the school can no longer continue.

It's just business.
 
Handy388 said:
also, I predict outrageous hike in tuition because current students are essentially trapped. They may have a hard time transfer due to the dean, now controlled by the business man, can do harm to the applicant.

I predict the tuition per year end up becoming 60k-80k alone.
Click to expand...

Well then they would be right up there with University of Colorado SOM wouldnt' they...82K/year non resident!
 
Handy388 said:
You loved to use the word public disclosure and public discourse, but here's my problem with RVU, along with most of the medical establishment.
RVU is a business. There need not, and in deed, most likely will not be public disclosure to anyone because that make sense to the business.
The owner may be committed to keep the school going in order to continue to FATTEN HIS WALLET.
What does that mean?
It means admitting subpar applicants as RVU falls lower and lower down the list of reputable choice for medical education.
It means extracting money from students and run the school down to the ground when the school can no longer continue.
It's just business.
Click to expand...

That's a Non-Sequitur my friend. I cannot say that I think a for-profit university is the best model for a medical school. However, to imply that because it is a for-profit business means that is it doomed to failure through exploitation of students doesn't work.

Here's why, If Tien wants to make money, he'll make the most money from a successful school then he will from an unsuccessful school. The big four caribbean medical schools have invested millions into their infrastructure and producing medical graduates that can compete in today's healthcare environment. Love 'em or hate 'em, they are hard to argue with. If they are not producing adequate medical graduate then their board scores drop and they have to retool their teaching methodology.

You're argument is that Tien will strangle RVU for short term profits at the expense of long term and greater profits... it just doesn't follow.

LECOM is non-profit... how about those marble statues?
 
Current RVU students and prospective students need to dig up the old pre-pharcamcy forum thread about the Hawaii college of pharmacy from maybe 2005 or so. It will take a couple of hours, but it will be highly instructive. You've been warned.
 
Copies of the RVU student letter to the AOA were available Friday during the open signing and will be in the future.

This matter involves the Board of Trustees being terminated after a failed RVU faculty vote to remove Martin that then proceeded to the Board of Trustees for review. The Board of Trustees voted to retain Dean Martin - possibly for a wide variety of reasons and likely to protect the students and our standing in the community.

The Board of Trustees were ignored, trivialized, and subsequently fired. The physicians on our former board ARE influential (the gateway) with rotations, residency creation, and are active in a wide array of organizations throughout this state and further.

The new "interim" deans (Mohr, Putthoff) are part of the problem as well. They were part of the 4 faculty (add Hurtt and Buck to the equation) who threatened to resign if Dean Martin wasn't removed. Tien haphazardly decided to terminate the Board of Trustees to force a resignation of Dean Martin with absolutely no consideration for the impact it would have to the community, the local physicians, or the RVU students. Unacceptable and it was not anticipated that it would leak so soon - playing to the benefit of the students now and much to Tien/Black's dismay.

The fact of the matter is that Yife Tien has bent to the will of a few faculty who were threatening to leave because they didn't like Dean Martin's involvement in the day-to-day operations and his involvement in the curriculum. Tien has tarnished our former dean's reputation - but also the students, based on a specific state licensing technicality that Martin fully disclosed and was common knowledge to Tien, Black, and the Board of Trustees when they began their deceptive plans.

We students must make this right and we've taken steps to do just that. We must correct our standing in the eyes of the greater community as well as the physicians here that have been so blatantly wronged and betrayed. Our standing and reputations here as medical students absolutely depends on it. Most students are aware of this and have let their voices be heard by the AOA/COCA. Our continued training in this area - our medical educations, are in jeopardy and we are protected under the by-laws of the AOA/COCA when RVUCOM was granted provisional accreditation.

The big picture is clear and facts stand. The community and local physicians have been disgraced through these actions - as well as the RVUCOM students. The physicians here in Colorado are also in contact with the AOA and will be acting on principle alone to battle Tien and his lawyer, Black, that've been able to create a medical school here under what most thought was being driven by a PHYSICIAN-DIRECTED Board of Trustees and to BENEFIT the students and the community. Only Yife Tien, Black, and Yife's wife (and another family member) currently sit on the board that is to guide our futures as students. They've shown their true intent AND their lack of consideration for COMMUNITY, the local PHYSICIANS here, and the MEDICAL STUDENTS at RVU.

The physicians once welcomed us and we are showing them that we stand squarely alongside them. We are also exemplifying what we RVU students are made of in our most recent actions - integrity and principle.

The majority have spoken - 100 signatures are on the way to the AOA/COCA - with more to come, and the AOA/COCA is also being contacted by the respected physicians in the community who once supported our school. We will once again earn the community and physician respect here despite what Tien, the disgruntled faculty FEW, and the lawyer Black have done and will continue to do to destroy our futures and the reputation of Osteopathic Medicine in Colorado and nationwide. We students, along with the physicians here, are the last line. We have an obligation to make this right and that's what we will do and have done by reaching out to the AOA/COCA. It's for the sake of this community and the people we wish to serve, the physicians we depend on for support and teaching, as well as the osteopathic physicians nationwide.
 
paramediclizard said:
It's all business Handyman...or are you just doing this for the love of the patients that you will treat for free?

Get real...
Click to expand...

Yeah, it's all business.

Because I have a basic grasp of business, I would not go to a school which I have to pay 40k a year for and is unaccreditted, and can raise tuition ANYTIME, at which point there is no way to back out without losing the ability of practice medicine ever (you don't quit medical school).

If you have so much business sense, you should never attend RVU. It's bad investment, basically a overpriced car that may or may not run, and you cannot return nor resale.
 
Please stop the threats. You all are the few - the fearful and uninformed.

There has been nothing but the truth espoused. There is an overwhelming majority support and voice transmitted to the AOA/COCA.

If you'd prefer not to be met with the truth, do not post. The majority has the floor and free speech trumps.

Go ahead. Track those that voice the truth. Track computer information - track it on school computers since you threaten it.

It matters not to the majority student body and such actions will be subject to even greater repercussions.


This is not legal advice.

Maybe you are ******, maybe you aren't. Doesn't really matter to me, I respect your request for annominity just as I respect you right to voice your discontent.

FOR YOUR OWN SAKE, read this website about Libel and Online Defamation Law. http://www.eff.org/issues/bloggers/l...ity/defamation

EFF is a good organization. I like them and I've supported them before I became kenny poor in med school.

There is a line in the sand, on one side is free speech and on the other is lawyers gonna rape you. You have to make damn sure you don't cross that line, because if RVU sends a lawyer after you for libel or defamation, win or lose your life is gonna be in a world of suckage.

I'm not *** and I'm not a lawyer, I'm just a student who agrees with about 40% of what you are trying to do, respects your complete right to do it but just saying, be careful. Don't cross the lawsuit line. Because that's a bad bad bad place to be....

-*** (Ignis)
 
Handy388 said:
Yeah, it's all business.

Because I have a basic grasp of business, I would not go to a school which I have to pay 40k a year for and is unaccreditted, and can raise tuition ANYTIME, at which point there is no way to back out without losing the ability of practice medicine ever (you don't quit medical school).

If you have so much business sense, you should never attend RVU. It's bad investment, basically a overpriced car that may or may not run, and you cannot return nor resale.
Click to expand...

Well I guess we should agree to reconnect in 10 or 20 years to see who got the better education, cooler job, the bigger house, drives the nicer car and has the hotter wife...I'm sure it will be you with your bigger, badder, more business educated self (well maybe not the wife part, I think I got that one nailed:thumbup:).

Good thing you didn't go to this school. They wouldn't have taken you anyway; you don't seen to have the character that they look for.

BTW, my tuition is frozen for 4 years, so no, I am not worried about a hike. Whether it is wrong or right, Mr. Tien has invested millions of dollars into my school. He does not turn a profit and will not for at least 10 years. I can't say for sure, because I'm not as business savvy as you claim to be.

Oh, and I pay 34K/year tuition (I believe that number was posted for you earlier)...God forbid you actually post some factual information and not just your opinion over and over.

Back to something more constructive...studying for my boards that you think I'm not being prepared for.
 
DO Down said:
Please stop the threats. You all are the few - the fearful and uninformed.

There has been nothing but the truth espoused. There is an overwhelming majority support and voice transmitted to the AOA/COCA.

If you'd prefer not to be met with the truth, do not post. The majority has the floor and free speech trumps.

Go ahead. Track those that voice the truth. Track computer information - track it on school computers since you threaten it.

It matters not to the majority student body and such actions will be subject to even greater repercussions.

OMG...I think this as all gone to your brain...please, please take my name off of your precious list. I do not want to associate with you or anything that you are speaking of!

No truth has been exposed. That's the problem...lack of transparency.

Who do you feel is threatening you or tracking you? Perhaps we should invite Geenens back to speak with you...

Who have you been informed by? Would they care to share their information with the rest of the class? All I have heard is a bunch of very vague comments for the administration and a **** load of opinion on this forum.

Again, stop hiding behind this forum...
Liz
Click to expand...
 
Stop trying to deceive and the truths will not be set before you- information that's contributing to your frustration and fueling your desires to threaten (the message in blue from IngisDU and few more from the few, like Toot45) those of us that stand firm with the support of the community.

Reach out on your own to find the truths behind what has happened.

The AOA/COCA has been contacted and we will all be heard.
 
DO Down said:
Stop trying to deceive and the truths will not be set before you- information that's contributing to your frustration and fueling your desires to threaten those of us that stand firm with the support of the community.

Reach out on your own to find the truths behind what has happened.

The AOA/COCA has been contacted and we will all be heard.
Click to expand...

Sweet...did you take my name off of your list? Or should I contact the AOA myself?
 
I created this thread asking for widespread community support and have received information and guidance from upstanding students, applicants, and physicians who would never have heard the news.

The communication requesting that the AOA to investigate this situation and our educational future is where it should be and it belongs to no one person. The letter is now with the AOA/COCA and you're free to pursue any changes you prefer.

Opinions and facts can be heard and you cannot squelch our voices.

Since you have no recourse in this matter or this thread, I would kindly suggest exiting. You may continue misleading applicants and other students in the designated RVU thread if you so desire.

I am nothing more than a supporter who has taken the time to investigate, just as many of my classmates have also done. We've voiced our concerns on an individual basis and I'm free to contact my colleagues here.
 
paramediclizard said:
Sweet...did you take my name off of your list? Or should I contact the AOA myself?
Click to expand...

If you all are on a mission to push for some change, you need to stand as a united front, and stop bickering with one another. This is really silly for the rest of us non-RVU students to read.
 
DO Down said:
Stop trying to deceive and the truths will not be set before you- information that's contributing to your frustration and fueling your desires to threaten (the message in blue from IngisDU and few more from the few, like Toot45) those of us that stand firm with the support of the community.

Reach out on your own to find the truths behind what has happened.

The AOA/COCA has been contacted and we will all be heard.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. I was in no way threatening you. I was trying to give you some advice to help keep you out of trouble. I don't really agree with what you are saying, but I support your right to be heard. That's the ACLU and EFF die hard in me. I was trying to give you a bump out of Libel territory and back into free speech territory.

As the EFF states concerning libel:
<b><i>Is truth a defense to defamation claims?</b>
Yes. Truth is an absolute defense to a defamation claim. But keep in mind that the truth may be difficult and expensive to prove.</i>

And just to be clear, I didn't sign the petition.
 
rkaz said:
If you all are on a mission to push for some change, you need to stand as a united front, and stop bickering with one another. This is really silly for the rest of us non-RVU students to read.
Click to expand...

Pretty sad isn't it...

Well I will respectfully bow out of this conversation and go mislead others (as DO Down has implied)

I'm on a mission for nothing but ethical behavior. There has already been change and now is the time to see where it goes.

Good luck to all in SDN land.
 
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