Advantages and Disadvantaged of DOs and MDs

Saw this somewhere else on SDN:

DO disadvantage: 18 year old WoW players will tell you that you can't become a dermatologist.

If you are in the average MD school then the odds of you rotating with some famous neurosurgeon to write a letter for you is probably not likely... Heck, I go to an MD school that doesn't have a neurosurgery residency, whereas multiple DO schools do. The advantages of rotating at an institution and having a little home institution favor can be invaluable.

Excelsius said:

Given that most of you are mature medstudents/residents, I am hoping that we can have a constructive discussion.

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Nope, can't be done.

Excelsius said:

What I don't know is much harder it is to match into competitive specialties like NS from DO vs from MD schools. What about matching into MD top residencies, such as in CA?

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Well, it's a matter of being realistic. If NS is truly your goal, and you go the DO route, and you want to go to an MD residency, you will really have to be top 2-3 in your class at the least (and that's not top 2-3%, but the top 2 or 3 people). But if you go the MD route, then you probably can get away with only being in the top 10. If you go the DO route and want to go to a DO program your odds improve, but still not dramatically. Now you only need to be to 15 or so.

Are there people who get into NS with worse grades? Sure. There's no 100% rule in medicine. But the probability becomes very low.

Excelsius said:

They are focused on primary care

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While that is the stated goal of the profession and every school says that, the graduation match lists of the past few years are showing that DO schools are moving away from that. It has nothing to do with the schools or the profession. But since people going to DO schools have, in general, the same mentality as those going to MD schools, the specialty break downs are becoming more and more similar.

Excelsius said:

The stigma/bias associated with the degree among some patients and medical communities

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Sure. Just like there's still racial stigma in parts of the country, sex bias in parts of the country, religious bias, etc. But you'll find that patients care far less than anyone else what letters the doc has after his/her name.

Excelsius said:

DO schools don't concentrate on USMLE as MD schools do

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Well sure, DO schools don't concentrate on the USMLE at all. They focus on the COMLEX. It's up to the student to do the necessary studying if they want to take the USMLE. But in general, if you study for the USMLE, then do a little extra work on the OMT material, you'll do fine for the COMLEX. And you'll also be ready for the USMLE. I did better on the USMLE than I did on the COMLEX.

Excelsius said:

Due to the DO school focus, it might be hard to do research there in some specialties like NS

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Indeed. But you'll have that problem at any low/mid tier MD school too. Then again, if your school (DO or MD) has research capabilities and you show enough interest, and are motivated enough, you can do a project of your own in just about anything.

Excelsius said:

Since most program directors are MDs themselves, they will be more inclined to choose an MD, rather than a DO. And there are already plenty of MDs competing for ROADS residencies.

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That'll be on a PD by PD basis. But there are MD residencies that have a DO as a program director and I don't hear of them discriminating against MDs. PDs tend to want the best person, not the most similar degree. <shrug> but if they have two exactly equal applicants, then yea, maybe the nod would go to the MD.

Excelsius said:

The perception of how smart you are as evaluated by your LOR writer, such as a neurosurgeon, has an important role in ROADS residencies. Therefore, it is possible that attending a DO school might create a bias that "you were not smart enough for MD" and can be detrimental.

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Ummm... no. There may be people who hold that perception but it's not the norm. The same people will look down on you and think you aren't smart enough because you didn't go to Harvard or Princeton. And what does NS have to do with ROADS residencies anyways?

Excelsius said:

As more MD schools are being built while MD residency spots are not being increased as much, it means that there will be more MDs competing for MD spots in the future. Some estimates say that due to the increase, there may be as much as 40% cut in IMG residencies by 2015 to satisfy the demands of US graduates. Since most IMGs go into primary, it is likely that most of these reassigned spots will be allocated to DO students, making DOs even more heavily concentrated in PC.

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All the more reason to start as soon as possible.

Excelsius said:

DOs are not recognized internationally and you can't practice in another country if one day you find yourself forced to move somewhere else (or maybe collaborate on an international research).

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The list of countries that give DOs full practice rights has expanded greatly since when I started medical school. It expands every year. In most countries, DOs have to jump through the same hoops as MDs. Foreign countries, in general, care more about where you trained, rather than how you trained. They'll look at you as a US grad and make you do a bunch of stuff to get practice rights. But is the list of countries that give US DOs full rights shorter than the list that gives US MDs full rights? Sure.

Good questions.

Excelsius said:

Guys,

This is my first post in the Osteo forum. Given that most of you are mature medstudents/residents, I am hoping that we can have a constructive discussion. If this thread starts to become a flame zone, I will close it...

Ok. I have been reading SDN a lot. I have been in different sub-forums, ranging from pre-allo, to allo, residencies, and specialty-specific subforums. Below, I am pasting a list that I have gathered over several months about why people on SDN, almost exclusively medstudents, residents, and attendings (no-premeds), have told me why choosing a DO might be a problematic. My goal is neurosurgery, at least I feel very strongly about it. I realize that there might be a small chance that I might change my opinion once I do rotations, but for now let's ignore that part. I know that DOs have NS spots specifically for DOs and that if you work very hard, i.e., harder than in MD, you should be able to get any residency spot. What I don't know is much harder it is to match into competitive specialties like NS from DO vs from MD schools. What about matching into MD top residencies, such as in CA?

Please go over this list and let me know which points you think are true, which are false, why, and what your source would be. I would appreciate your honest input because right now I know that I can apply a year early and get into a DO school, but if I wait an extra year, I will have a shot at least at some MD schools. There lies the question. If going to DO schools doesn't matter at all for very competitive residencies at competitive locations, I would not want to spend an extra year of my life and would apply sooner to DO.

Here is the list:

Why not DO?

1. They are focused on primary care and if someone wants to go to NS, for example, it will be very difficult since there might not be any neurosurgeons in the school who could write a good LOR, even if Step 1 scores are high. This will be fine if you are headed for PC, but otherwise, it is not the main function of DOs to focus on specialties. (some are more concentrated on FM than others).
2. The stigma/bias associated with the degree among some patients and medical communities, even if restricted to certain geographic regions
3. DO schools don't concentrate on USMLE as MD schools do. Therefore, it may be more difficult to get high test scores required for some specialties.
4. Due to the DO school focus, it might be hard to do research there in some specialties like NS.
5. Since most program directors are MDs themselves, they will be more inclined to choose an MD, rather than a DO. And there are already plenty of MDs competing for ROADS residencies.
6. The recommendation letters from DOs, even assuming you can find an neurosurgeon DO at your schools, will not have the same weight as a recommendation from a famous MD neurosurgeon.
7. The perception of how smart you are as evaluated by your LOR writer, such as a neurosurgeon, has an important role in ROADS residencies. Therefore, it is possible that attending a DO school might create a bias that "you were not smart enough for MD" and can be detrimental.
8. As more MD schools are being built while MD residency spots are not being increased as much, it means that there will be more MDs competing for MD spots in the future. Some estimates say that due to the increase, there may be as much as 40% cut in IMG residencies by 2015 to satisfy the demands of US graduates. Since most IMGs go into primary, it is likely that most of these reassigned spots will be allocated to DO students, making DOs even more heavily concentrated in PC.
9. DOs are not recognized internationally and you can't practice in another country if one day you find yourself forced to move somewhere else (or maybe collaborate on an international research). Still, not all countries recognize MDs either.

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Well, since you are so intent on proving what a barbaric imbecile you are in multiple forums I guess I will take the time to refute your nonsense point by point. P.S. it is incredibly arrogant to just "Know you would have been admitted to D.O. school" not to mention and insult to those of us who actually have. How exactly do you know this? I got news for you champ...the matriculating stats for MD and DO schools are very close and getting closer. If you have now shot at MD school, you probably don't have a shot at any.

1. DO students go into a variety of specialties...yes including your beloved Neurosurgery that you mention about every other sentence. Check the match lists that are published for each school and you will see many matches into the beloved ROAD specialties. Oh and PS these are competitive for MD students as well and very hard for them to get into...that is not specific to DO.

2. Stigma or Bias? Im a Tampa Bay Rays fan and have a stigma against the New York Yankees. Does that mean they are an inferior team? No. It is human nature to put down "the other guy". Especially on an anonymous forum comprised mostly of ignorant premeds like yourself.

3. Concentrate on the USMLE? What are you talking about? With the exception of OMM coursework, basic medical education is essentially the same DO or MD.

4. DO school focus? Is that a term you just made up? DO schools do medial research of all kinds. Do a little research on each school and find out where their faculty research interests lie.

5. Wow, most program directors are MD's? Hmm, perhaps you should address that the to thousand or so PD's of DO residencies and let them know that they are mistaken about their degrees and are actually MD's. Oh and also run it by the attending DO program directors who run ACGME programs. I'm sure they will find your info interesting.

6. This one just pisses me off and proves that you are a buffoon. You go tell a board certified osteopathic physician that his/her LOR is un-desirable because they are an inferior physician. But please let me know beforehand so I can pop some popcorn and sit and watch you get eviscerated as the idiot that you are.


7. You are a *****. That is my answer to this one.

8. More DO schools have been built and more students accepted than MD schools in the last 10 years to the tune of 300%. Osteopathic residencies are exclusive to DO students and more are being opened each year to accomadate an increase in overall medical education.

9. Ah, this one is my favorite. I don't care if I get banned from SDN forever for flaming. Just exactly how studid are you? As a prospective medical school applicant you are posting things as facts that are 100% false. Can you not even use Google? Here is my answer to your assertion that DO's can't practice in any other country.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Osteopathic

I seriously suggest that as a first step you begin by stop insulting the members of an entire medical community with your stupidity. Get some new sources for your arrogrant spread of mis-information other than pre-meds in the pre-allo forums of SDN. When your magical plan of becoming the next famous brain surgeons tanks, don't bother applying to DO schools with your tail between your legs.

We don't want you.

octagonecology said:

we don't want you.

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x2

Edit: My bad... I started writing this before anyone else had responded. I'll leave it up though.

Excelsius said:

Why not DO?

1. They are focused on primary care and if someone wants to go to NS, for example, it will be very difficult since there might not be any neurosurgeons in the school who could write a good LOR, even if Step 1 scores are high. This will be fine if you are headed for PC, but otherwise, it is not the main function of DOs to focus on specialties. (some are more concentrated on FM than others).
2. The stigma/bias associated with the degree among some patients and medical communities, even if restricted to certain geographic regions
3. DO schools don't concentrate on USMLE as MD schools do. Therefore, it may be more difficult to get high test scores required for some specialties.
4. Due to the DO school focus, it might be hard to do research there in some specialties like NS.
5. Since most program directors are MDs themselves, they will be more inclined to choose an MD, rather than a DO. And there are already plenty of MDs competing for ROADS residencies.
6. The recommendation letters from DOs, even assuming you can find an neurosurgeon DO at your schools, will not have the same weight as a recommendation from a famous MD neurosurgeon.
7. The perception of how smart you are as evaluated by your LOR writer, such as a neurosurgeon, has an important role in ROADS residencies. Therefore, it is possible that attending a DO school might create a bias that "you were not smart enough for MD" and can be detrimental.
8. As more MD schools are being built while MD residency spots are not being increased as much, it means that there will be more MDs competing for MD spots in the future. Some estimates say that due to the increase, there may be as much as 40% cut in IMG residencies by 2015 to satisfy the demands of US graduates. Since most IMGs go into primary, it is likely that most of these reassigned spots will be allocated to DO students, making DOs even more heavily concentrated in PC.
9. DOs are not recognized internationally and you can't practice in another country if one day you find yourself forced to move somewhere else (or maybe collaborate on an international research). Still, not all countries recognize MDs either.

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Sounds like you would be happier at an MD school, honestly.

1. Depends on the school entirely, not the initials. My school has an NS residency associated with it... lots of teaching MDs on staff - it wouldn't be hard for me to get a LOR from them if I do go into NS.
2. Ask any DO attending... unless the doctor loudly proclaims themselves a DO, patients usually never care or ask. There isn't a "stigma" as far as patients go. As far as medical communities go... the biggest stigma I've encountered has been the pre-med/SDN stigma. Other than that, I honestly haven't encountered any.
3. Your USMLE score = your effort. If you truly want to go NS, you can get the score you need.
4. True to an extent. Is NS research required, though? Yeah it may give you a slight upper hand over non-NS research, but it is once again up to you. Also, during a summer you could go shadow/research with a "prominent" NS. It takes time, money, and your summer. Not your initials.
5. Sure, some are like that. Others (most, I dare say) just want someone they can stand working 80 hours a week with. Also, you have about 15 more options (DO residencies) to *help* compensate for any MD-MD bias.
6. It is completely within your power to choose whether you ask a DO or MD NS for a LOR. If you want one from an MD, ask an MD.
7. Some MD NS people might care, others might not.
8. Pure speculation. The evidence points elsewhere. More and more DOs are specializing: Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:OsteoPrimaryCare.PNG
9. DOs are recoginzed internationally and are growing. MDs do have more countries where they are recognized, but DOs are gaining ground. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DOworld.PNG

Forgive me for speculating (because I am), but it sounds like you want pride in who you are and being a DO would diminish that. Lots of people with dreams of NS tend to be this way. If I were you, I would spend the 1 extra year and go MD - I kind of have a sense that you'll be disappointed if you go DO for the luxury of 1 year. You probably personally think MDs > DOs - and that is fine and your choice. Overall, is it "easier" to go NS as an MD? Probably. But how big of a difference is it? Not that much. Good luck

It's obvious you think you want to do neurosurgery. Frankly, I find premeds who have this preformed notion of what they want to do before even being exposed to the different medical specialties hilarious. But whatever.

There are many more MD NS programs, and whether or not anyone will say it, the surgical specialties are very old school and rather stuck up. That means few to no DOs - hell, at some places women and black folk need not apply after they take their token one per decade. You wanna hang with the old white men, go ahead.

Plenty of variables in getting the residency you want. You want to maximize you chances of NS, go MD.

Forget all the other crap about international practice rights. Every f*cking premed who throws that up as a reason or concern is just padding their reasons why they don't want to go DO, because if they actually researched the issue, they'd find concrete numbers as where the USDO can practice, and damn little info as to how 'universal' the US MD really is.

And let's be real for a moment. Not one goddamn one of you is going to pack up and move to a foreign country to practice. The job market, pay, language barriers and sheer number of hoops to jump through in order to do so will kill any romantic notion of practicing a few years in Italy or France.

So, wait out the year, buff your app, and go MD. Please. Good luck. And we'll check in on you in 11-12 years when you get out of your NS residency.

And what have we learned, masses of young premeds who come to the osteo forum to be educated about what a DO is? We've learned to expect hostility in response to honest questions, regardless of whether we've done our homework, and regardless of how politely and professionally we present our questions.

Nicely done, future DOs.

DrMidlife said:

And what have we learned, masses of young premeds who come to the osteo forum to be educated about what a DO is? We've learned to expect hostility in response to honest questions, regardless of whether we've done our homework, and regardless of how politely and professionally we present our questions.

Nicely done, future DOs.

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Very true. Hostility and anger won't help anyone. Answering questions will. Sure, trolls exist, but what would happen if we just answered them all kindly?

You mean if I go to the Allo forum and put up some question like, "I'm trying to decide between MD and DO. Since MDs only teach how to treat specific diseases and disregard the patient as being a complex and interconnected being, will my ability to practice good medicine be compromised?" that I'll be greated with puppies and chocolate chip cookies?

Siggy said:

You mean if I go to the Allo forum and put up some question like, "I'm trying to decide between MD and DO. Since MDs only teach how to treat specific diseases and disregard the patient as being a complex and interconnected being, will my ability to practice good medicine be compromised?" that I'll be greated with puppies and chocolate chip cookies?

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No, they would most likely berate you. But what if they didn't? What if they responded kindly? Wouldn't your opinion of them increase AND your question be answered? It's really just immaturity that causes us DOs to lash out against people who honestly have questions about how they'll be treated for the rest of their working life. It's an important topic and determines their future. Didn't you wonder the same thing when you first heard of DOs?

DrMidlife said:

And what have we learned, masses of young premeds who come to the osteo forum to be educated about what a DO is? We've learned to expect hostility in response to honest questions, regardless of whether we've done our homework, and regardless of how politely and professionally we present our questions.

Nicely done, future DOs.

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Well, speaking as a present DO, no, he didn't do his homework at all. What he did was present his preconceived notions about DOs and essentially asked us to disprove them.

A person who genuinely was interested in NS, and seriously considering the DO route as a viable path to NS would know how many MD vs DO programs there are, how many DOs are in allo programs.

If he were genuinely concerned about DO international practice rights he would look at the stickied FAQ. If he were genuinely interested in pursuing a career as a neurosurgeon in a foreign country, he would know that unless you were Ben Carson, not one foreign doctor or nurse would drop his flaky struedel or tasty bowl of rice to assist you in a surgery. They don't usually allow foreigners to fly in and cut into people's brains every day.

Let's face it. The fact that the OP is considering the DO route to a path to NS hints at his non-competitiveness at higher tier allo schools, much less lower tier MD schools. If he were a lock to a mid-tier and up MD school, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Excelsius said:

1. The perception of how smart you are as evaluated by your LOR writer, such as a neurosurgeon, has an important role in ROADS residencies. Therefore, it is possible that attending a DO school might create a bias that "you were not smart enough for MD" and can be detrimental.

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For me... his assertion that "of coure you are an idiot...i mean after all a DO wrote your letter" was the point where politeness went out the window.

DrMidlife said:

And what have we learned, masses of young premeds who come to the osteo forum to be educated about what a DO is? We've learned to expect hostility in response to honest questions, regardless of whether we've done our homework, and regardless of how politely and professionally we present our questions.

Nicely done, future DOs.

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I agree. The OP started this thread in DO because of some questions I was asking in non-trad. He asked honest questions and got some rather snarky responses. No one is looking for warm and fuzzy butterfly answers, but no one was attacking DOs, yet some people here are strongly on the defense.

And every pre-med has an idea of what specialty they 'think' they're going to want to enter and there's nothing wrong with that. Sure, it may very well change multiple times once they matriculate, but there's nothing wrong in thinking about it now.

Thanks to those who gave helpful answers. It's appreciated.

tideleonheart said:

No, they would most likely berate you. But what if they didn't? What if they responded kindly? Wouldn't your opinion of them increase AND your question be answered? It's really just immaturity that causes us DOs to lash out against people who honestly have questions about how they'll be treated for the rest of their working life. It's an important topic and determines their future. Didn't you wonder the same thing when you first heard of DOs?

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See, I look at this in a different light. I wouldn't dare go into someone's house and then ask a bunch of tainted questions like that. The undertone of the OP's post is purely evident and is such that it doesn't warrant a non-snarky reply.

tkim said:

Well, speaking as a present DO, no, he didn't do his homework at all. What he did was present his preconceived notions about DOs and essentially asked us to disprove them.

A person who genuinely was interested in NS, and seriously considering the DO route as a viable path to NS would know how many MD vs DO programs there are, how many DOs are in allo programs.

If he were genuinely concerned about DO international practice rights he would look at the stickied FAQ. If he were genuinely interested in pursuing a career as a neurosurgeon in a foreign country, he would know that unless you were Ben Carson, not one foreign doctor or nurse would drop his flaky struedel or tasty bowl of rice to assist you in a surgery. They don't usually allow foreigners to fly in and cut into people's brains every day.

Let's face it. The fact that the OP is considering the DO route to a path to NS hints at his non-competitiveness at higher tier allo schools, much less lower tier MD schools. If he were a lock to a mid-tier and up MD school, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

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This *is* doing his homework. That's what a forum is for. Obtaining quick answers.

Let's say an imaginary person named Matthew is trying to find out a few things about Germany. He has heard Germans can be mean. He wants to know the capital, if the people there are generally mean, and how he'll be treated if he goes there.

Igor, a German, is standing next to him. Matthew asks him the questions and immediately Igor snaps back at him and says, "you fool! do you know how many times people have asked me that? There's a thing called the internet and you can go find out for yourself - bitch!"

That's how we're treating these people. If we simply acted positively to every person who came on here with an honest question about a piece of the most important decision of their lives, we could attract more people to osteopathy, increase application numbers, and increase our reputation.

It's in our best interest.

tkim said:

Well, speaking as a present DO, no, he didn't do his homework at all. What he did was present his preconceived notions about DOs and essentially asked us to disprove them.

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Siggy said:

See, I look at this in a different light. I wouldn't dare go into someone's house and then ask a bunch of tainted questions like that. The undertone of the OP's post is purely evident and is such that it doesn't warrant a non-snarky reply.

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Why do you think there is taint and undertone here? The OP has no preconceived notion of what a DO is. The OP, like bazillions of premeds, doesn't know. You do. Why are you offended by these questions? Why are you answering as if your profession has been maligned, by somebody who has no power whatsoever to affect your profession beyond their decision whether to join it or not? Why is the automatic response to an uninformed questioner defensive?

Octagonecology said:

We don't want you.

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Oh good lord.

This is the only reason I give people as to why they shouldn't consider being a DO. You have to accept that throughout med school, throughout residency, and throughout the rest of your career you will have to answer questions like these. You will get the same questions and misconceptions told to you over and over and over and over. And you will have to spend a lot of time answering them over and over and over and over. And if you can't do it with a calm demeanor and a polite attitude, then it's you who shouldn't be a DO.

We don't gain anything by calling pre-meds stupid for their lack of insight or for perpetuating sterotypes. We don't gain anything by ignoring their questions. If anything it continues to harm us. We push away the upper echelons of applicants who cling to the stereotypes because they don't get any helpful and non-acidic information to the contrary.

If you reach the point that you get defensive whenever someone asks "Why in the world did you become a DO" then the best thing you can do is not answer and let the more diplomatically minded people answer the questions. Politeness should never go out the window.

Plus, our chocolate chip cookies and puppies are better than those in the allo forums.

Well done, WVSOM 2013.

tideleonheart said:

This *is* doing his homework. That's what a forum is for. Obtaining quick answers.

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Absolutely not. When people post 'do my homework question' posts, they get a 'do your own homework' response, similar to the 'read the FAQ' or the older RTFM.

I have no interest in neurosurgery. If I did, it would be a little late since I'm already in residency and it would be a big red flag in my app.

It took me literally two minutes to google the number of MD NS residencies, the number of DO NS residencies, international practice rights for USDO was in the FAQ. It would take more time to search for DOs at each NS program but you'd get a clearer picture of what and where it might be possible. Searching the NS forum would have yielded a lot more info than asking the osteo forum, predominantly populated with med students, rather than asking current NS residents.

tkim said:

Well, speaking as a present DO, no, he didn't do his homework at all. What he did was present his preconceived notions about DOs and essentially asked us to disprove them.

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Your expectations are too high. At this point in your career, I doubt you remember the learning curve of a premed, but it starts with "what is med school?" and over the course of many, many months works its way toward "what is a residency?" The OP, like most premeds, is trying to educate him/herself, which to folks on the other side looks might look like somebody making hostile, unsubstantiated claims about the order of the alphabet. When a 4 year old seems confident that P comes before F, do you slap the kid?

Furthermore, the OP is an educated, proactive, nontraditional premed who has a previous career, thus has some perspective, and thus is able to form discrete questions (lack of IM speak is a strong clue here). Compare this to the average 21 year old, who typically has no idea how to go about researching the relative merits of one path vs. the other, and comes away from threads like this (look at how many people read vs. post) with an overwhelming impression about DOs. No more research necessary.

Excelsius said:

Guys,

This is my first post in the Osteo forum. Given that most of you are mature medstudents/residents, I am hoping that we can have a constructive discussion. If this thread starts to become a flame zone, I will close it...

Ok. I have been reading SDN a lot. I have been in different sub-forums, ranging from pre-allo, to allo, residencies, and specialty-specific subforums. Below, I am pasting a list that I have gathered over several months about why people on SDN, almost exclusively medstudents, residents, and attendings (no-premeds), have told me why choosing a DO might be a problematic. My goal is neurosurgery, at least I feel very strongly about it. I realize that there might be a small chance that I might change my opinion once I do rotations, but for now let's ignore that part. I know that DOs have NS spots specifically for DOs and that if you work very hard, i.e., harder than in MD, you should be able to get any residency spot. What I don't know is much harder it is to match into competitive specialties like NS from DO vs from MD schools. What about matching into MD top residencies, such as in CA?

Please go over this list and let me know which points you think are true, which are false, why, and what your source would be. I would appreciate your honest input because right now I know that I can apply a year early and get into a DO school, but if I wait an extra year, I will have a shot at least at some MD schools. There lies the question. If going to DO schools doesn't matter at all for very competitive residencies at competitive locations, I would not want to spend an extra year of my life and would apply sooner to DO.

Here is the list:

Why not DO?

1. They are focused on primary care and if someone wants to go to NS, for example, it will be very difficult since there might not be any neurosurgeons in the school who could write a good LOR, even if Step 1 scores are high. This will be fine if you are headed for PC, but otherwise, it is not the main function of DOs to focus on specialties. (some are more concentrated on FM than others).
2. The stigma/bias associated with the degree among some patients and medical communities, even if restricted to certain geographic regions
3. DO schools don't concentrate on USMLE as MD schools do. Therefore, it may be more difficult to get high test scores required for some specialties.
4. Due to the DO school focus, it might be hard to do research there in some specialties like NS.
5. Since most program directors are MDs themselves, they will be more inclined to choose an MD, rather than a DO. And there are already plenty of MDs competing for ROADS residencies.
6. The recommendation letters from DOs, even assuming you can find an neurosurgeon DO at your schools, will not have the same weight as a recommendation from a famous MD neurosurgeon.
7. The perception of how smart you are as evaluated by your LOR writer, such as a neurosurgeon, has an important role in ROADS residencies. Therefore, it is possible that attending a DO school might create a bias that "you were not smart enough for MD" and can be detrimental.
8. As more MD schools are being built while MD residency spots are not being increased as much, it means that there will be more MDs competing for MD spots in the future. Some estimates say that due to the increase, there may be as much as 40% cut in IMG residencies by 2015 to satisfy the demands of US graduates. Since most IMGs go into primary, it is likely that most of these reassigned spots will be allocated to DO students, making DOs even more heavily concentrated in PC.
9. DOs are not recognized internationally and you can't practice in another country if one day you find yourself forced to move somewhere else (or maybe collaborate on an international research). Still, not all countries recognize MDs either.

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If you have that much spare times to think of this nonsense discussion, then I strongly suggest you find something fun to do. I assume that you are still pre-med, then go do some ECs so that you can boost your chance to get in medical schools. Otherwise I still encourage you to find something fun to do. Man, this topic I have seen like millions times and I am so sick of it. Just thanks God that you are accepted in a medical school because to the end people will judge you by how good you are as a doctor, noone care if you are MD or DO. Personally, I do not see any disadvantage as being a DO or advantage as being a MD.

Lastly, to someone above who said DO can't be a Dermatologist, think again because I can prove to you that there are DO Derm (google osteopathic dermatologists).

DO can pursue any field in medical profession

Thanks

TXDO said:

Lastly, to someone above who said DO can't be a Dermatologist, think again because I can prove to you that there are DO Derm (google osteopathic dermatologists).

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Ok read my post again.

engineeredout said:

Ok read my post again.

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My bad, I did not point at you. I said that to whomever you referred in your post.

Peace

DrMidlife said:

Your expectations are too high. At this point in your career, I doubt you remember the learning curve of a premed, but it starts with "what is med school?" and over the course of many, many months works its way toward "what is a residency?" The OP, like most premeds, is trying to educate him/herself, which to folks on the other side looks might look like somebody making hostile, unsubstantiated claims about the order of the alphabet. When a 4 year old seems confident that P comes before F, do you slap the kid?

Furthermore, the OP is an educated, proactive, nontraditional premed who has a previous career, thus has some perspective, and thus is able to form discrete questions (lack of IM speak is a strong clue here). Compare this to the average 21 year old, who typically has no idea how to go about researching the relative merits of one path vs. the other, and comes away from threads like this (look at how many people read vs. post) with an overwhelming impression about DOs. No more research necessary.

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So this educated individual could not spare a google search and the perusal of a FAQ? The original post detailed lurking in different forums for quite some time. This educated, proactive, previous career non-trad could not figure out that his ostensibly open-minded but poorly-worded implied inferiority of the DO education and degree would hinder his goal of becoming a neurosurgeon wouldn't raise the hackles of the denizens of the osteopathic forum?

Exactly how much insight on his part are we talking here? He's either the mature, older deep thinker you're making him out to be, in which case he should have done more independant research and targeted his search to higher-yield forums, or the biased, lazy individual that wants reassurances that quite frankly, no one can give him. Which one is it?

If he's the former, then clearly despite his deep-thinking, methodically researching-badassedness, he's tripped over his own dick and posted something tantamount to a big 'FU' written in crayon on a piece of cardboard. Clearly his big-brain-on-Brad f*cked up. In which case, maybe he's not the older, mature, deep thinker you think give him credit being.

Let's boil it down here. I'll paraphrase his post:

"Hi, I did a lot of research, including reading the residency and specialty forums but I figured I'd ask people in a forums who for the most part haven't started residency yet. I don't think I can get into MD school, but I'm sure I can get into DO school. I want to be a neurosurgeon, but I'm worried that if I go to DO school, the only thing I'll be doing is primary care in east bumblef*ck. If I go to DO school, will I be able to do everything humanly possible to distance myself from the fact that I went to DO school by only getting letters from MD neurosurgeons, program directors, etc?"

C'mon people. Just because he's writing 'f*ck you' politely, doesn't change the fact that he's writing 'f*ck you'.

I agree, there seems to be a hostile tone on this forum that I have not seen anywhere else. I wonder why? In a classroom at the colleges and universities, students are encouraged to ask questions and no question is considered dumb. The same premed comes here and we bash him/her.

TXDO said:

My bad, I did not point at you. I said that to whomever you referred in your post.

Peace

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EngineeredOut was referring to the fact that most information given on SDN is by pre-meds who have no knowledge or experience in anything except World of Warcraft video games.

Please forgive my abruptness as I am very busy. Having a DO isn't going to restrict your ability to do medical mission work any more than having an MD would. Also, it has always been my impression that moving to another country and receiving a permanent license to practice in that country is hardly a seamless process, regardless of your degree designation. Nevertheless, it is a fact that not all countries recognize the US DO degree. I wouldn't let that fact stop you from pursuing it, however, as international practice rights / recognition is continually growing, and there may in fact be ways around restrictions that currently exist. I recall attending a seminar once about getting a license to practice in the European Union as a DO. So, yes, it is possible.

Excelsius said:

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond. I also thank leonheart and others who responded constructively. Octagon... in all my time here on SDN you are probably the only person who's on my ignore list now. You have been a member for less than a month and are already building a bad track record. I don't know about the mods, but I am going to ask to please not post here, or at least have the courtesy to be a little constructive if you do.

I am forced to justify some of the points I posted: First, as I mentioned, none of the points written down are my own opinions. As an avid reader of various allopathic subforums, I simply combed through various conversations and copied and pasted some of the strongest expressed opinions about DOs in those forums. What you are looking at is a compendium of likely allopathic prejudices that one person (NON-MD or DO) was able to put together. The fact that I am here, trying to get information directly from the source, should give you a hint that I have nothing against you and that my sole purpose is to get educated about DO by hearing your side. Your advantage will be double because I am accumulating comprehensive archives and then disseminating the information in many different forums, especially if someone posts something wrong. Do you know a lot of allo students who "waste" their time collecting all the prejudices from within their group and then come to you and ask you your opinion? If I didn't respect what you had to say, I wouldn't be here...

Regarding international work: I have two reasons - one is if in case the conditions in US become unbearable, I want to have an option to work as a doctor in UK or Australia. Second, I want to be able to do medical missions to places like Africa and Middle East. I am not asking this question because I want to "pad my reasons" against DO...

Regarding my ignorance (tkim): about a year ago, I didn't know what a DO was. I also had very little idea about medschool admissions. I was shocked at how much I didn't know and I have been reading a lot trying to keep up with all the variables in the MD admissions. I do not know too much about DOs except what I have heard in the allo forums. I am here now to see what you guys have to say. You are the ones who live and breathe through this. Would it be really better for me to go to a secondary source, like Wikipedia, instead of asking you? What's wrong with asking you a question? This is how SDN works - we learn by asking questions. Some of them are dumb, others not. If you think that any question to which you know the answer is a dumb question, then you cannot benefit the community here since there is no circumstance under which you can politely share your knowledge. Finally, please, if you think any of my questions were impolite, please rephrase them yourself and show me how else I could have asked to not offend anyone. It's like walking on eggshells and no matter what you do, at least one will break.

I had a couple of follow up questions, but given some of the responses, I don't want to ask them now because I don't know what else might follow. Let's wait and see if things calm down first.

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Hello again friend. Here. I see like I and DrMidlife and others. You have found your way to the minefield of the DO culture wars.

I was going to warn you. But cieste le vie. The thing is to try to see past the clamor and to remember that there are DO's out there doing what you want to do. And they're way to busy for the tedious and humorless cultural battles that will rage on here forever, I guess.

Keep asking your questions. But put a little more honey on them. And then also you might wear a helmet and a flak jacket.