Accounting for What I've Been Doing the Last 9 Years, When Answer is "Iffy"

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

selfhealer

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Jul 16, 2009
Messages
171
Reaction score
0
So as a 30 year old applicant, who graduated from college 9 years ago, I will of course have to account for what I've been doing the last 9 years. Now I am by NO means ashamed of what Ive done and accomplished since graduating, Im concerned that the details (especially one which I will discuss) might be frowned upon by certain Adcoms.

So a bit of my history is needed here. I went to college at GW in DC in 1997. My initial intention was to complete the med school pre-reqs (I had always planned on going into medicine), while attaining a degree in my other passion (jazz performance). I am an electric and upright bass player and thought that while completing the pre-reqs, I had a great opportunity to grow as a musician by studying jazz and other forms of music, and receiving my degree in this field. I reasoned that my major didnt matter as long as i completed my med school pre-reqs, so I might as well major in a passion of mine.
Well, my passion for music quickly took over, and by the end of my first year I had decided that nothing would make me happier then having a career in music. Thus, I decided to put my aspirations of medicine on hold, and instead devoted myself to jazz and music, reasoning that I owed myself to pursue this passion while I was young, and perhaps return to medicine sometime later in life.

I wont bore you with all the details of my life since graduating in 2001. I will say I moved back home to NY and began my music career. I have been working as a musician in various capacities ever since. Making money in music (ESPECIALLY JAZZ), is nothing short of a miracle. While I have loved my life as a working musician, I will admit to the fact that the money was nothing less then pathetic. Now I dont imagine Adcoms will look down on my years as a gigging and recording musician, however there is very little in the way of tangible things I can offer to demonstrate what Ive been doing all these years. Would it be appropriate or even possible to include recording of mine with my application?? I have no idea if there is even a section in the app which would facilitate this.

Now...moving on to what I suspect might be the real problem. As I mentioned, the money earned as a jazz musician is pathetic-in my case it was not enough for me to live the life I had set up for myself. This of course....brings us to poker.
I, like many other young, bright minds, found myself entering the world of online poker quite early in my music career. At first I played just a bit, mostly for fun, but in a fairly short time, I realized that I won quite a bit more then I lost, and realized that by taking it a bit more seriously, and putting in more hours, I could very effectively supplement my dismal music income, with my increasingly profitable poker income. I wont get into details, but I will say that for the past 4 years, the bulk of my income has come from poker and not music, and the truth is that I have been able to live quite well since I began supplementing my income with my poker winnings.

So herein lies the dilemma: Do I make my poker career known to the med schools and Adcoms, or do I focus only on my music career. I do not want to lie or even omit what has been a big component of my life, and I feel no shame at ALL for my poker career (in fact I feel a strong sense of pride in that my ability to excel in this game of skill has allowed me to continue pursuing my musical passions). However, I am all to aware that there are many that misunderstand poker and view it as just another form of "degenerate sinful gambling", and such a person would likely not support me as an applicant. Im equally sure there are many open-minded Adcoms who would be intrigued by my unorthodox story and impressed at my accomplishments, and for these people, I can imagine that my atypical history could help me stand out from the crowd and actually INCREASE my chances at success. However the fact remains that there is no way for me to know which Adcom will respond which way, and I therefore might be best off omitting this portion of my life's story, in order to remove the variable of my Adcoms biases or naivety.

Sorry for the long post...Im just stuck on this subject.
But to sum up-
1. How will med schools view the fact that Ive spent my years since graduating college with no "real job" and instead have worked as a gigging and recording musician?

2. Is it advisable and possible for me to include recording to demonstrate to med schools my talent as a musician and also give them something tangible to connect to me and my career? Is this a good idea?

3. Lastly- what to do regarding poker?? On one hand, many might be impressed and I might stand out from other applicants. On the other hand, its possible some might have moral judgements on a career in poker, and this would obviously hurt me.

Thanks-SH

Members don't see this ad.
 
Good question! While I really can't answer it as far as adcoms are concerned in any way shape or form, I just wanted to say that I have a lot of respect for anyone who excels at a something like that that requires hard work and skill. You're right that a lot of people don't understand poker... it's so accessible nowadays that to be able to make any significant amount of money at it, you have to put in a lot of time and effort focusing on making yourself better. If I were on an adcom, It would show me that you have focus and work ethic. If you're going to do something, you're going to do it well. But you're absolutely right that not everybody will see it like that.
 
Fellow jazz performance major here.
I found most people to be entrigued with the background. It really makes you stand out as a candidate; just due to the fact that most people will not be like you. Just spend some time time thinking about all the gigs you have done and build up your resume just like someone from any field.
I had a significant amount of other work experience by the time I applied, so I wasn't in exactly the same position as you.

Poker... not exactly sure how to handle this one.
My guess is that many would view this as more negative than positive.
Whether they should or not, I don't know.
Some will view this just as you say, degenerate gambling.
I'd leave it out of the app. I just can't see many as viewing that as a plus.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
This is a much more interesting dilemma than which club leadership experience should go in your personal statement.

With or without it in the app., you are still interesting. I throw up in my mouth reading some of the things out younger more run-of-the-mill colleagues fuss over. Whereas either way you slice it you've still got a good rap game from the get go.

I left a lot out of my application. And for good reason. This is a conservative crowd we're trying to woo here. Still some of them might even want to talk to you about other styles of living and making money. Higher primates are curious creatures regardless of their social habits.

I think you should speak to a professional consultant or two. A lot would depend on how you communicate it as well. Good luck.
 
Similar story here. I'm now 31 and a 2nd year med student. I spent ages 18-30 playing in various bands and gigging all over the east coast.

I put it in my application. Alot. Music is still a core part of my identity.

I think it shows that you're well rounded and have other interests outside medicine. Poker too. Lots of people play poker. Lots of docs play poker...
 
1. How will med schools view the fact that Ive spent my years since graduating college with no "real job" and instead have worked as a gigging and recording musician?
There will probably be as many answers to this question as there are med schools to which you apply. I'm not sure I'd agree that being a musician isn't a "real job", although it's certainly an unconventional job. But so what? It's not illegal or immoral to be a musician.

2. Is it advisable and possible for me to include recording to demonstrate to med schools my talent as a musician and also give them something tangible to connect to me and my career? Is this a good idea?
You won't be able to submit a recording with your app, but what you can do is contact each school where you apply and ask them if you can send them a recording of your work. The key here is to *ask* before sending anything extra like art work (including music). Some schools may tell you they don't want it, and obviously you should honor their wishes. The other thing you can do is bring a tape with you to your interviews. If your interviewer is interested, you can play it for him/her.

3. Lastly- what to do regarding poker?? On one hand, many might be impressed and I might stand out from other applicants. On the other hand, its possible some might have moral judgements on a career in poker, and this would obviously hurt me.
I think you summed up the pros and cons pretty succinctly. It's a choice that is clearly high risk/high reward. You are going to have to decide if you're willing to take that risk. Speaking for no other adcom but myself, though, I would *love* to read your app and/or interview you. :laugh:
 
Thanks for all the well thought out responses here. Im glad to hear many of you suggest that adcoms will be intrigued by my unconventional career (music). I am still a bit concerned on that front, in that there really isnt anything tangible (aside from a recording) which I can hand the adcom. I dont have a long list of rewards or honors (it doesnt work like that in the career I've pursued). I basically bounce around jazz clubs and venues in the NYC area an abroad, picking up whatever gigs are offered, doing recordings here and there, writing songs for other musicians, etc. Basically, everything Ive done is "off the radar" and has no paper-work to back it up. Im just hoping this wont reflect badly.

As for the poker....Man, I really go back and forth on that. I apologize for being crass here, but the fact is that Ive made a low 6-figure salary for the past several years playing poker. I think it could really speak well for me when I explain to adcoms that Im willing to leave a career like this (where I work for myself, make my hown ours, and make great money) in order to pursue my passion for medicine. I would think that would show real commitment. Also, it clearly does "set me apart", and there is certainly something to be said for someone who faced a problem (not earning enough in music), and instead of quitting, found a creative solution to his problem (poker), and excelled in it. In the right adcoms hands, I have to believe this could give me a big leg-up.
Now on the other hand of course, admitting to poker could prove an absolute disaster if a very straight laced, puritanical adcom is looking at my app. Despite its recent popularity, poker is still very misunderstood. Many refuse to accept that of course there is luck involved, but over the long term, poker is a game of skill. You simply cannot be a long term winner if you are a poor player. Unfortunately Ive found that for those that have a bias against gambling, my efforts to convince them that poker is not really gambling (no more then the stock market is), end up being fruitless.

Grrr... Im really stuck on this one. Id love to have something in there that could have me stick out, but Id equally hate to have something in there that would cause some adcoms to immediately toss my app in the bin.

Any other suggestions??
 
Last edited:
There's sort of an art to constructing a medical school application. Speaking purely as a former med school applicant and not an adcom, I think the key is to make sure your experiences reflect a gain of wisdom/experience/skills/intellectual tools that will make you a better physician. As long as you can express in essays/interviews,etc. how these experiences molded you as a person and how you think they enhance your ability to be a more humane, compassionate, astute, "fill in the blank" physician it'll be a plus. Just make sure not to use anything as a negative, but always as a positive - (ie "My former career left me unfulfilled so I turned toward medicine" vs. "Using the xyz that I gained in my former career, I felt I could combine my passion for abc with my passion for medicine etc etc")

The tricky part about poker is not that it's not a game of skill (it is - I'm a former tournament player myself), but that's its a zero sum game. In order for you to win you don't just beat opponents, you have to take their money. Technical skill and the ability to read betting patterns aren't necessarily those that will impress most med school adcoms in what's, let's face it, a ruthless (though often gentlemanly) activity. You mention that you played mostly online poker. I think you could have spun it if you were a live player - maybe emphasized reading people or interesting travels and people you met. Being a professional artist though you may be creative enough to find a way to use your online poker career to your advantage in your application. But if it were me, I'd leave it out. You don't need to be ashamed of it. Feel free to discuss it if it comes up in an interview, but I wouldn't highlight it in an essay or list it on your ECs.

Your music career on the other hand could only be a plus as far as I'm concerned. Adcoms want diversity in their classes. If you demonstrate in pre-reqs & MCAT that you're academically capable and in ECs that you're tempermentally capable, they'd chomp at the bit to have a professional jazz musician among their ranks.
 
Thanks for all the well thought out responses here. Im glad to hear many of you suggest that adcoms will be intrigued by my unconventional career (music). I am still a bit concerned on that front, in that there really isnt anything tangible (aside from a recording) which I can hand the adcom. I dont have a long list of rewards or honors (it doesnt work like that in the career I've pursued). I basically bounce around jazz clubs and venues in the NYC area an abroad, picking up whatever gigs are offered, doing recordings here and there, writing songs for other musicians, etc. Basically, everything Ive done is "off the radar" and has no paper-work to back it up. Im just hoping this wont reflect badly.

I think most people understand that it's possible to have a career in music without winning awards and charting hits. Also, it's not like they ask for documentation of this kind of stuff. I never gave an adcom anything besides my app and transcripts...It came up briefly in interviews, but just as small talk mostly...

I did talk about any Charity gigs I did (I also organized many charity concerts), but that was really my only volunteer experience, so I kinda had to.

Poker is hit or miss. I'd might mention that playing poker is a hobby that you enjoy and leave it at that. Or not. I'm not sure. I'd err on the side of caution though.

Then again, Q's response might be the one you want to trust. If it makes an adcom interested enough to talk to you, then it can't hurt.
 
As an interviewer, my first question to you is "why medicine and why now?" Music is a clearly passion for you and you are able to support yourself by playing poker. So, why go into medicine? What about your history convinces me that medicine isn't just another "fling?" What work/volunteer/life experiences make me sure you truly want to be a physician and won't quit doing it within 10 years of starting med school. Those are the questions you should expect to answer.
 
As an interviewer, my first question to you is "why medicine and why now?" Music is a clearly passion for you and you are able to support yourself by playing poker. So, why go into medicine? What about your history convinces me that medicine isn't just another "fling?" What work/volunteer/life experiences make me sure you truly want to be a physician and won't quit doing it within 10 years of starting med school. Those are the questions you should expect to answer.

Those are good questions, and I agree they will most likely come up during an interview. How I would answer that now (off the top of my head and without censoring myself or attempting to put the perfect spin on it) is to say this.

The truth is that I had always wanted to be a doctor from a very young age. I began college with the intention of pursuing medicine. However at college, my passion for music was greatly fueled and encouraged by some great professors. I soon found myself performing at the jazz clubs in DC with amazing musicians and it was an unbelievable experience which had a great effect on me. I struggled alot with whether or not I was going to put my med school plans on hold in order to pursue music, or stick to my original plan regarding medicine, and just maintain music as a hobby. Ultimately, the prospect of a career in music was just too tempting to ignore at that point in my life.

I have truly loved my life as a musician these past years. However, in the last several years, I have been finding myself increasingly unsatisfied. I've been feeling that I am living a selfish life and have had this sense that I am missing out on my true calling.
Honestly, I could continue on as a working musician while supplementing my income with poker for many years to come, but it just doesnt feel "right" anymore. I know that sounds vague, but I cannot better explain it.
Im just finding my passion for medicine and science and the desire to help others who are suffering, increasing every day. Its not that Ive lost my passion for music, its that this strong desire to return to my original plan to become a doctor has become overpowering.

Im not sure if these would be good answers to the question you posed, and those that will be posed by adcoms. I will certainly need to work on my ability to articulate this overpowering desire to drop everything and dedicate myself again to medicine.
What do you think? Will answers like these seem insufficient and lack-luster to adcoms? Thanks-SH
 
i think those are good answers..
i just stumbled upon this thread, but i really think the jazz career will set you apart! you wrote music, performed in various clubs (which Im sure you can name and list in your app), recorded, etc. that is definitely a lot you can tease out of that.
as for poker... i want to say "do you really want to go to a med school that thinks poker is degenerative gambling and will look down upon you for that?" but medicine is still very conservative and i would either list it with your other hobbies if you have a section liek that, or not list it at all. after all, you dont list video games or online porn right?
 
Members don't see this ad :)
in the last several years, I have been finding myself increasingly unsatisfied.

In what way?

I've been feeling that I am living a selfish life and have had this sense that I am missing out on my true calling.

What experiences have made you feel this way? (hopefully you have some medical shadowing experience or volunteering to bolster this)
 
Interesting... my two cents...

I'd imagine that adcoms are looking for traits that they believe will increase the probability that you will be successful in medical school and in a medical career. Previous non-medical careers are useful insofar as they demonstrate certain of these traits, whether they be a work-ethic, scientific aptitude, intellectual capacity, ability to function well in a professional environment, etc.

So here we have two non-medical careers: jazz musician, and poker player. Jazz musician... you can talk about the long hours of practice, the sacrifice necessary to achieve your goals, the variety of people with whom you've had to work and relate to, etc. I think it's a plus--just don't say something like "but dude, the real reason was the women and the free booze!" Personally I'd enjoy that, but I'm not on an admissions committee.

Online poker player... there are positive traits here. Long hours of study to learn the mathematics of the game--I'm assuming you'd be playing on several tables at once, simply playing the odds, to generate that level of income--long hours of "play" which is really more like work, long hours of steady concentration, the intellectual capacity to succeed, etc.

Negatives... possible that an adcom member might be morally offended at the idea of gambling, but my instinct is to doubt it... more likely negatives... I might wonder whether it says that you're unwilling or unable to work in a social professional environment, whether you'd be able to stay with the commitment and drudgery that medicine requires, etc.

Also... I sense that you want to mention this because you're (justly) proud of your skill and accomplishments in this line of work. The problem is that it is very difficult to substantiate your claims of success. How do I know that you were really very good at this game? Am I being faced with an applicant who simply claims to have made hundreds of thousands of dollars playing online poker? I might be intrigued, but I would probably also look at the claim with some skepticism.

Finally, many of the people reading your application simply won't know anything about poker. They won't have much appreciation of the mathematics involved, the concentration required, etc. They'll have an initial impression that you "played a game" to make money, and that impression will be difficult to overcome in the time they'll spend on your application.

So overall... my advice would be to emphasize the musical career, and save the poker for an illuminating anecdote on an interview, to be used without describing it as a career.
 
Thank you all so much for the thoughtful and insightful responses. I apologize for not posting in this thread for several days after so many of you took the time to provide, what I consider, great advice. Ironically I took a gig that took me out of town for several days and didnt have a chance to post.

There really are some great responses here which explore nearly every aspect of this dilemma of mine-especially the poker question.
I have little doubt that my history as a musician will help my cause, if only for the novelty of it. I suspect that my work as a musician will set me apart from most other applicants, and Im sure I will be able to discuss specifics about this line of work which armed me with tools which will prove useful in medicine.
I hope very much that I will be given an opportunity to present the various schools/adcoms, with recordings of my music. I would think that they should REQUIRE such a tangible representation from anyone who is applying with a background such as mine. Without such a recording, my career in music would appear to them, as nothing more then words on a page and unsubstantiated claims on my application. If schools do not accept, let alone require, something tangible like a recording from someone with my background, what is to separate me from a casual musician who has played the odd gig here and there, and exaggerates on his application? I would think that evidence of my talents and accomplishments in this area would be crucial considering that I indicate "music" when accounting for the last 9 years of my life.

One last question on the topic of music-I am lucky enough to have a fairly rare musical skill called "perfect pitch". I dont say this to brag, as it is essentially a skill that one either naturally has or doesnt. It would be somewhat similar to boasting that one has incredible eyesight. Nonetheless, it is a rare trait in musicians and I wonder if it should be included on my application when discussing the topic of music. It lends no advantage in the field of medicine, and it is not the results of hard work, so the only value in including it would again be the "novelty" aspect of it, and its rarity.

Now....on to the tougher topic of poker. I agree strongly with a particular comment someone made here when they said that disclosing my career in poker is a very high risk/ high reward scenario. For those adcoms who have no moral qualms on this topic, and especially for those that may have an understanding of the game, I have to imagine that a well articulated explanation and description of my experience in poker, could be an absolute highlight of my applications. However, for those that find poker objectionable, for any reason, I have found that no amount of careful explanation of the game, nor well reasoned distinctions made between poker and traditional gambling, alter their negative perception.
Now my gut tells me that the latter of these two groups will fall in the minority. Poker carries far less a negative stigma these days, and I tend to think that those in the adcom position, are generally open-minded are genuinely eager to hear the applicant out (perhaps this is wishful thinking).

In either case, there is one aspect in particular regarding the details of my poker career which makes me want to disclose the topic of poker. Essentially my thinking goes like this-
My goal was never to become a professional, or even serious, poker player. My only wish at that point in my life was to work as a full-time musicians. Unfortunately, the reality of the field I chose is that shockingly few are able to support themselves fully through music alone (and unfortunately, talent seems to have little bearing on whether you will be amongst the lucky few who can). Consequently, like nearly all of my peers, I had to find a "side gig" to make ends meet. For many this means waiting tables. I was lucky enough to utilize my skill in poker, as a means to live comfortably, while still pursuing my passion and career in music.
This brings me to what I feel would be a good "selling point" to adcoms.

My current situation is an unbelievably fortunate, comfortable, and enviable one. I apologize for the slightly arrogant tone that must come across when I discuss this topic, but Im attempting to paint as accurate a picture of my situation as possible.
For over 4 years now, I have lived quite well from my poker earnings, which has afforded me the blessing of allowing me to pursue my music without the negatives that usually accompany such a career (namely, being dead broke). I am in a situation that for all intents and purposes, is idyllic, and there is no reason to think that I will not be able to continue along like this for as long as I wish. And what is stopping me from continuing on this comfortable and fulfilling path, is this overpowering hunger to become a doctor. Ive not become bored or disenchanted with my music career, on the contrary, I find it as wonderful and fulfilling as ever. However, this ever-present thirst to arm myself with as much medical knowledge and prowess as possible so that I might use them to fight disease and aid those suffering, makes the prospect of downgrading the role of music in my life from "career" to "hobby", a painless decision.

I guess thats all for now. Apologies for the long post, I just wanted people here to know exactly where Im coming from.

PS- Would the last portion of my post make for a decent personal statement?? Thanks again-SH
 
OP, (1) is the online poker legal? This may not be easy to determine. (2) did you report all of your poker income on your tax returns and pay all applicable taxes? If the answer to either of these questions is "no," you may not want to mention the poker...
 
OP, (1) is the online poker legal? This may not be easy to determine. (2) did you report all of your poker income on your tax returns and pay all applicable taxes? If the answer to either of these questions is "no," you may not want to mention the poker...

The question of legality is a bit murky. However, the general consensus seems to be that the online poker player is not breaking any established laws.
As for taxes, how is this question relevant? Surely adcoms arent going to delve into my tax returns. I dont even imagine they could legally do this even if they wanted to.
 
The question of legality is a bit murky. However, the general consensus seems to be that the online poker player is not breaking any established laws.
As for taxes, how is this question relevant? Surely adcoms arent going to delve into my tax returns. I dont even imagine they could legally do this even if they wanted to.

I'll probably never be on an admissions committee, and I know nothing about online poker. but if I were and I knew that the applicant played it successfully, here's the question that I would ask, and I would make a decision based upon how good his answer was.

"What is the difference between making a living playing poker and being addicted to poker?"

If he answered this challenge with hostility, then I would think that he is to intolerant of dissent. If he answered by saying "skill and winning" then I would reject him because the chances of him eventually hitting a losing streak and losing his "skill" would be too high. I would think he was really an addict who happened to be on a long winning streak.

If on the other hand, he could give me a really good answer, then, even though I am opposed to gambling I would admire him for gaining an ability that many people could not accomplish.
 
You won't be able to submit a recording with your app, but what you can do is contact each school where you apply and ask them if you can send them a recording of your work. The key here is to *ask* before sending anything extra like art work (including music). Some schools may tell you they don't want it, and obviously you should honor their wishes. The other thing you can do is bring a tape with you to your interviews. If your interviewer is interested, you can play it for him/her.
:

the admissions people will already know you're a bit older than "traditional" applicants; no need to reinforce it...I'd suggest bringing a CD instead (or even a flash drive with an mp3 file on it):D

as for the poker issue, I'd say just go with what feels right, whether that's to reveal it or not to reveal it. and if you do choose to reveal it, people here have given you good advice re: how to spin it so as to emphasize its positive parallels with/transferable skills to medicine

so cool that you have perfect pitch! but yeah, I wouldn't note that anywhere on your apps. maybe you can bring it up in the course of an interview? I recall seeing a study a few years ago about it - I don't have any of the info. at hand, but I think the study determined that perfect pitch was, in fact, genetic and not something that can be learned. put a scientific spin on it, is what I'm sayin'... in any event, you do sound like an interesting person. I can only speculate, but I'd think that med school admissions peeps would find your music career most interesting and you will stand out in a good way. best of luck to you!
 
By the way. I am actually interested in the answer to the question. What is the difference between a gambling addict and a professional gambler who happens to be winning recently?
 
By the way. I am actually interested in the answer to the question. What is the difference between a gambling addict and a professional gambler who happens to be winning recently?

your question has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. and your question doesn't even make sense. maybe you could find a poker forum and ask your question there?
 
the admissions people will already know you're a bit older than "traditional" applicants; no need to reinforce it...I'd suggest bringing a CD instead (or even a flash drive with an mp3 file on it):D
Only if they didn't know that musicians use demo tapes to share their work. Fortunately, some of us adcoms aren't as literal as you are. ;)
 
Only if they didn't know that musicians use demo tapes to share their work. Fortunately, some of us adcoms aren't as literal as you are. ;)

it was meant in jest...hence the smiley :D icon. I'm probably the least literal person EVER (picture more smileys here...)
 
OP, if I were you I would discuss what you have talked about above in your personal statement. That is an excellent place to express your passion for music, poker, and medicine. You can even tie them all together in a unified essay, although I would probably use music as the underlying thread that ties your PS together.

The fact that you have the ability to play poker and win in itself is not the story you want to write, it's the fact that you used poker to supplement your income while you pursued your passion for music. I don't think I would list "Poker Player" as payed employment on your AMCAS application, but I would consider listing it under "Other activities." I think you should not hide what makes you a unique applicant, but rather use it to your advantage.

In the end it's going to come down to GPA, MCAT, Clinical Experience, and your story. You've already got a great start at the story (And I'm sure the GPA, since you were a music major).

Good luck!
 
The question of legality is a bit murky. However, the general consensus seems to be that the online poker player is not breaking any established laws.
As for taxes, how is this question relevant? Surely adcoms arent going to delve into my tax returns. I dont even imagine they could legally do this even if they wanted to.

I personally think gambling (online and otherwise) should be legal, but you would be taking a big chance by mentioning involvement in an activity of questionable legality. According to my (admittedly limited) research, gambling on online poker doesn't appear to violate existing laws, but the justice department has taken the position that it does.

Regarding taxes, if you haven't reported all your income, the fewer people that know it (or suspect it), the better.

The potential negatives far outweigh any positives, so I wouldn't mention the online poker at all.
 
Wow, this is a really interesting post.
I would definitely mention the music career - it would be a positive.
You can probably save the demo tapes/actual music for the interviews/interviewers to listen to. It's not going to determine whether you get the interview...why should it? If you are a great jazz musician vs. just doing yeoman's work at something you love, I don't care if I'm the adcom. I only care that you'll make a good physician. are you smart? Are you caring? Do you have a terrific work ethic? Do you have well thought out reasons for wanting to become a physician? Will you bail out in 10 years, or is medicine really your calling?

I would leave out the part about "perfect pitch". It's interesting but irrelevant to becoming a doctor, and IMHO might make you sound arrogant. I didn't say you are or you aren't...you just don't want to appear to be.

I don't see a ton of positive in heavily emphasizing the poker in your application. You can mention it if you like, but at your peril. I also agree w/the comment above about defining gambling addiction vs. dedication/focus. Addictions can be and are a problem among physicians, and I imagine there'd be at least some adcom members who would worry about that aspect. These likely outnumber the puritans who oppose all gambling and would be turned off for that reason. You have to ask yourself if you're so proud of the poker playing that you just HAVE to emphasize it as a major part of your application. You haven't said one thing about your clinical volunteer work, or scientific research, etc., all the things I'd be interested in as an applicant.

Your writing (above) is pretty good. I actually like the 2nd to last post best, as opposed to your latest one above. That's because being a physician, I don't really give a hoot about the gambling. My interest is why does this person want to be a doc, and will he be likely to be a good one. Good means dedicated to his patients, and won't bail out on them to go online gambling. I also agree with the person above who said that it would likely be easier to spin live gambling/in person gambling vs. online gambling.

OP, you also forgot to mention that online gambling means you are taking other people's money. Some of them are probably gambling addicts, even though you may not be. I honestly don't care that much about gambling one way or another, but some people are likely to have a problem with this. If I were in your shoes, I'd at least minimize the gambling in your application...I see more negative than positive here. At the least I'd use it as an extracurricular and not sell yourself as a professional gambler.
 
Thank you all, once again, for the varied and well thought out responses.

To EDLONGSHANKS: Your question "what is the difference between a professional gambler and a gambling addict", is the PERFECT example of the the common misconception of poker, held by many, that illustrates why discussing this aspect of my career with an adcom, might backfire. Let me briefly answer your question.

Poker is of course, gambling (as is playing the stock market, investing in real estate, and countless other "respectable" manners in which people attempt to make a profit). However, poker is fundamentally different from ALL other types of traditional gambling. Allow me to explain. In all other types of gambling (blackjack, roulette, craps, etc) the player is playing against the house (the casino). The casino, being in the business of making money and not losing it, has structured all of these games such that even if one were to play PERFECTLY, the house is still at an advantage. For instance, in blackjack, depending on what hand you have and what the dealer has, there is a statistically "correct" move the player should make (hit or stand) in order to have the best possible odds of winning that hand. However (and this is the crucial part), even if the player makes the "right" play each and every time, the house still has approximately a 53% chance on winning vs. your 47%. This means that no matter how perfectly you play, the house always retains a slight advantage. Now, 53% does not sound like an insurmountable advantage, and indeed, it is a small enough advantage that on any given "session" of blackjack you play, you may very well come out ahead. However, the fact remains that the house ALWAYS has a slight advantage, which means that in the long run, it is mathematically impossible for the player to come out ahead.

Now, let us look at poker, and examine the fundamental difference which, I would argue, differentiates it from all other forms of gambling.
When one plays poker (whether online or at the casino), player DO NOT play against the house. Rather the casino employs a dealer who merely deals out the cards to all the players, but does himself play. The consequence of this is that the players are competing against each other, as opposed to competing against the house. Instead of winning money from the players by beating them in a game which is always geared in their favor, the house makes it money by taking a small percentage of the "pot" which accumulates in each hand. Hence, the house has NO incentive to skew the odds in their favor since they are not actually playing against the other players. The dealer merely deals the cards to all players in a given hand, one player wins the hand, and the house benefits by taking a small percentage of the winnings from that hand.
If you have followed my explanation thus far, you should see that what makes poker different from all other games, is that the game is not designed to give the house (or any other player) an advantage.
When this artifical advantage is not built into the game, you are left with an unbiased game in which various players, of varying skill level, are competing against each other.

The last aspect I need to explain in order to illustrate the difference between a pro poker, and a gambling addict, is to flesh out the significance of and role of "luck" and "skill" in poker. Poker, of course, has a strong element of luck intrinsic to the game (especially in the short run). However, it is crucial to recognize that in the long run, all players will receive the the same amount of good and bad luck. The other element of poker, is of course, skill. This takes the form of understanding odds, reading your opponent, recognizing betting patterns, and patience, amongst others. Thus, in a game where luck is evenly distributed amongst the players in the long run, skill is the remaining variable. So, if you and I play 10,000 hands together, you will go on some lucky streaks and so will I, but with a sample size as large as 10k, we will essentially experience the same level of good and bad luck. In this case, the winner of this match will be decided by the player who possesses the greater level of skill. Are you following me here?

This rather long-winded explanation should serve to draw the distinction between the pro poker player and the gambling addict. An obsessive blackjack player, while he may come out ahead on isolated days, is destined to lose to the house in the long run, because he is playing a game whose odds ALWAYS favor the house. In poker however, no such artificial advantages are built into the game since the house itself has no vested interest regarding who wins since they collect a small percentage of each pot, regardless of which player wins. Thus, the player who is more skillful in relation to his opponents, will inevitably come out ahead.
Indeed, even the most skilled players will hit "bad streaks" and lose sessions to players lest skilled then them, due to the natural variance of the statistics of the game, but the fact remains that given a large sample size, the element of luck becomes moot since all players will over time, experience the same level of good and bad luck, and thus the variable aspect of skill becomes the deciding factor for who is the winner in the long term, and who the loser.

I hope this helps you to understand the difference between a pro poker player and a hopeless gambling addict. Speaking for myself, I no longer get much enjoyment from poker, but continue to play because it provides a consistent income for me. If I were to somehow lose my "edge" and feel that I no longer had an advantage over my opponents, I would cease to play, because my reason to play is based solely in my ability to earn money. If I suddenly found myself outclassed, I would not hesitate to cease playing, as I have no interest in continuing to play if I've lost my ability to earn.

I suppose this was a very long way of saying- A gambling addict hopelessly engages in a game despite the certainty that it will result in his losing money. A (winning) poker player plays because his level of skill guarantees that he will profit in the long term. I do not play for the thrill of the game, but rather for the income it provides which has allowed me to continue to pursue my career in music.
Has this cleared things up?

The last this Id like to revisit here is something that is really tempting me to disclose my poker career. At the risk of sounding arrogant, the truth is that my poker income has not been at all unsubstantial. Without getting too specific, I do think its pertinent to disclose that for the past several years, my poker income has been comparable to what I would earn as
a (lower paid) physician. There are many that view my current situation as idyllic- I can pursue my passion as music, and meanwhile generate a very comfortable income as my own boss, working from the comfort of my own home. I would THINK, that my willingness to walk away from this very comfortable life so that I can fully pursue my dream to become a physician, would very strongly indicate my passion and dedication to medicine. Consider that I have established a great life and career for myself, one which I find fulfilling and exciting, and it is only my absolute passion to help those suffering through my skill and knowledge in medicine, that has led me to the decision to leave what is an otherwise, great life. What do you guys thinks??-SH
 
I would THINK, that my willingness to walk away from this very comfortable life so that I can fully pursue my dream to become a physician, would very strongly indicate my passion and dedication to medicine. Consider that I have established a great life and career for myself, one which I find fulfilling and exciting, and it is only my absolute passion to help those suffering through my skill and knowledge in medicine, that has led me to the decision to leave what is an otherwise, great life. What do you guys thinks??-SH

It's a very, very bad idea for the reasons I previously stated.
 
^ The most important factor here is that most adcoms will NOT be familiar with poker, much less the mathematics of it. That means you will be struggling up against a variety of negative stereotypes and cognitive commitments that the adcoms will bring with them when they see the term "poker player." I do not think it's possible to do so effectively in the very short space and time you will have as an applicant.

At best your arguments will create some cognitive dissonance for an adcom looking at the term poker player as i) just a game of chance, ii) something people get addicted to, iii) something vaguely unethical, or iv) something unprofessional and not worthy of being called a career or job.

Remember that your goal in the application isn't necessarily to validate all your life-choices with the adcoms. It's to tell a truthful story with emphasis on themes and points that they will view most positively, in order to motivate a positive decision on your application. You don't want the adcom to have to rethink his views on poker, question his assumptions, etc. Your goal is persuasion with a very particular decision in view, which you must accomplish within very narrow time/space parameters, not enlightenment with respect to poker.

As far as your income... your argument is that by telling the adcoms you make a comfortable income, you will establish that you're not entering the medical profession for monetary reasons. You want to say "hey, listen, I'm giving up this really nice life to become a doctor, so I must really be committed." Do I have that right?

I think that an adcom will look more to your clinical experiences, and what you say about medicine itself, to judge your commitment. I don't think they're going to weight your prior income.

I also think that your argument simply returns the adcom to the question: why do you want to become a doctor? Sure, they'll get that you're giving up a nice life to become a doctor. But why? That's the part of the application that's important.

Now, I do think it's worthwhile to describe your prior musical career positively, so that it doesn't appear that you're simply running away from it. But I don't see much upside to dwelling on an income or a materially comfortable lifestyle. You can mention by way of description of your prior career that you lived comfortably; anything more would be either unhelpful or potentially harmful.

Obviously this is all just one person's opinion, who does not sit on an admissions committee, and who has not attended or even applied to medical school. :) So buyer beware, and I can see reasonable views that would disagree with my own. Whatever decision you make, I hope the process turns out well for you.
 
But to sum up-
1. How will med schools view the fact that Ive spent my years since graduating college with no "real job" and instead have worked as a gigging and recording musician?

2. Is it advisable and possible for me to include recording to demonstrate to med schools my talent as a musician and also give them something tangible to connect to me and my career? Is this a good idea?

3. Lastly- what to do regarding poker?? On one hand, many might be impressed and I might stand out from other applicants. On the other hand, its possible some might have moral judgements on a career in poker, and this would obviously hurt me.

Thanks-SH

If you have spend the last X number of years of your life doing something that is legal and moral, then spin it and list it. If not, don't mention it and make sure it won't come up on a criminal background check.

We on admissions committees are not looking to judge your life other than how it determines your ability to practice medicine. In general, folks who engage in criminal activity are not going to be able to be trusted with the lives of human beings (make sure criminal doesn't describe you). Other than that, you life is what you make of it. If your employment worked well for you and shaped you into the person that you are today, then that's what you go with.

Trust me on this, you can't shape the thinking of any person (or groups of persons). You can only shape your thoughts. If you are ashamed of your past, it will come through in your actions. If not, then it's part of what made you into the person you are today. The one sure thing is that you can't change it but you can learn from it and move forward if that's what you need to do.
 
Thank you all, once again, for the varied and well thought out responses.

To EDLONGSHANKS: Your question "what is the difference between a professional gambler and a gambling addict", is the PERFECT example of the the common misconception of poker, held by many, that illustrates why discussing this aspect of my career with an adcom, might backfire. Let me briefly answer your question.

Very, Very good explanation. It's informative and answers my off-topic question. I like it. The way you tell it, this doesn't sound any different than Bobby Fischer playing chess. If I were the admissions person, this would satisfy me.

Of course, the adcomm might not ask the question this way and give you no opportunity to overcome the social stigma attached to gambling - whether poker or blackjack.
 
The question of legality is a bit murky. However, the general consensus seems to be that the online poker player is not breaking any established laws.
As for taxes, how is this question relevant? Surely adcoms arent going to delve into my tax returns. I dont even imagine they could legally do this even if they wanted to.


I think adcoms can look into your tax returns for purposes of verifying state residence if you you're applying to a school as in state.
 
I think adcoms can look into your tax returns for purposes of verifying state residence if you you're applying to a school as in state.


Can anyone else confirm or deny this?? I would be very surprised if adcoms had the authority to look into an applicants tax returns. Can anyone answer this definitively?
 
Can anyone else confirm or deny this?? I would be very surprised if adcoms had the authority to look into an applicants tax returns. Can anyone answer this definitively?

Sorry, I should have been clearer, I know they can ASK you for your tax returns.
 
Can anyone else confirm or deny this?? I would be very surprised if adcoms had the authority to look into an applicants tax returns. Can anyone answer this definitively?

definitively? not me. but I'd think that for purposes of verifying residency, if you own a home in the state then they could just look at property records and wouldn't need your tax returns. however, the financial aid people likely will want your tax returns. if you get on a hot streak with the poker, though, maybe financial aid will be a moot issue:D
 
definitively? not me. but I'd think that for purposes of verifying residency, if you own a home in the state then they could just look at property records and wouldn't need your tax returns. however, the financial aid people likely will want your tax returns. if you get on a hot streak with the poker, though, maybe financial aid will be a moot issue:D


Just owning property doesn't cut it for some schools. They want proof of continuous residence for x # of years.
 
surely there are many ways you can provide proof of residency that DONT require such a massive intrusion into one's privacy as with the case of a tax return.

Even if they DID want to view your tax return so that they can confirm your residency, there would be not need to, and it would be completely uncalled for, for them to actually delve into the "meat" of your return where they will see things like your income. This is extremely private information, and I dont see how adcoms could possibly justify such an intrusion, especially when there exist so many other ways to establish that an applicant is a resident. This just seems absurdly wrong.
 
I think adcoms can look into your tax returns for purposes of verifying state residence if you you're applying to a school as in state.

Can anyone else confirm or deny this?? I would be very surprised if adcoms had the authority to look into an applicants tax returns. Can anyone answer this definitively?

Financial aid may ask for tax returns (yours and your parents for some schools). The admissions committee does not want or need this type of information. State residency can be verified by other means.
 
Tax evasion is a huge gamble, especially with larger dollar amounts like six figure incomes. Unlike poker, the odds are largely stacked in favor of the house (aka the IRS).
 
Tax evasion is a huge gamble, especially with larger dollar amounts like six figure incomes. Unlike poker, the odds are largely stacked in favor of the house (aka the IRS).

Agreed. And furthermore, I have not engaged in tax evasion. However, even if I, or somehow else had engaged in tax evasion, I still dont see how this becomes an issue in terms of med school admissions.
 
However, even if I, or somehow else had engaged in tax evasion, I still dont see how this becomes an issue in terms of med school admissions.

Well, to start, it's a criminal offense...
 
Agreed. And furthermore, I have not engaged in tax evasion. However, even if I, or somehow else had engaged in tax evasion, I still dont see how this becomes an issue in terms of med school admissions.


It speaks to the applicant's character. If they cheat on their taxes what else are they willing to do?



Also, this is from the UMass website:

Applicants to the regular MD program must declare Massachusetts as their state of legal residence on their AMCAS application. Anyone seeking to enroll in the University of Massachusetts Medical School who has not graduated from a Massachusetts High School is required to provide proof of continuous residency for a period of not less than five years immediately prior to enrollment. Applicants may be asked to provide tax returns to document their MA residency.

So at least at this school they can ask if they want to.
 
Last edited:
Ok, so I understand that tax returns may be asked for, or even required, by some schools to serve as proof of state residency. However in these cases, I HAVE to imagine that the school would only ask for the page on your return which provides your biographical information (name, age, address,etc), and not for the specific information where your income and deductions are made. They want your tax return so they can ensure you are a resident, not to invade your privacy and sniff out your salary. Am I wrong here??
 
Ok, so I understand that tax returns may be asked for, or even required, by some schools to serve as proof of state residency. However in these cases, I HAVE to imagine that the school would only ask for the page on your return which provides your biographical information (name, age, address,etc), and not for the specific information where your income and deductions are made. They want your tax return so they can ensure you are a resident, not to invade your privacy and sniff out your salary. Am I wrong here??

I definitely got asked for the whole thing (not just the first page) but I can't imagine that anyone cares about your income - financial aid, the registrar (or whoever does residency) and adcomm are usually all completely separate. So the potential request for tax returns should not influence your decision to disclose or not the poker issue.

If you want to list it as a way that you (responsibly, non-compulsively) sustained your music career, I think that's fine, though I would not list it as a separate career. This might be something that would be better to talk about in an interview setting, where you can gauge the adcomm's reaction and respond appropriately. I'm sure some will be really into it and you can down play it or explain it to someone who doesn't get it.

You obviously are a smart guy with an interesting application and the Jazz certainly sets you apart. I have two suggestions to which I hope you will not take offense:
1) I assume that you have more specific reasons about going into medicine than that it is what you always wanted to do - these should take up the lions share of your personal statement, leaving little room for poker and no room for mentioning perfect pitch (I have no idea why they would care about that)
2) You mention wanting to talk about poker so that they know that you are leaving a comfortable lifestyle to pursue medicine. I'm not sure how much this matters - I do not assume that most people go into medicine for the money (though maybe some cynical adcomms do?) unless something else they say/do suggests this. In fact, mentioning this might leave the opposite impression - like you only stayed in music because you could do it comfortably.
Tone is hard to convey in posts, but I'm a little troubled by the way you said this - do you think your desire to go into medicine is more genuine/noble than someone who is leaving a lower paying career to pursue medicine? Hopefully, you can portray your desire to be in medicine without focusing on finances. You have a great story - leaving a well-paying career is the least interesting part of it.
 
I definitely got asked for the whole thing (not just the first page) but I can't imagine that anyone cares about your income - financial aid, the registrar (or whoever does residency) and adcomm are usually all completely separate. So the potential request for tax returns should not influence your decision to disclose or not the poker issue.

If you want to list it as a way that you (responsibly, non-compulsively) sustained your music career, I think that's fine, though I would not list it as a separate career. This might be something that would be better to talk about in an interview setting, where you can gauge the adcomm's reaction and respond appropriately. I'm sure some will be really into it and you can down play it or explain it to someone who doesn't get it.

You obviously are a smart guy with an interesting application and the Jazz certainly sets you apart. I have two suggestions to which I hope you will not take offense:
1) I assume that you have more specific reasons about going into medicine than that it is what you always wanted to do - these should take up the lions share of your personal statement, leaving little room for poker and no room for mentioning perfect pitch (I have no idea why they would care about that)
2) You mention wanting to talk about poker so that they know that you are leaving a comfortable lifestyle to pursue medicine. I'm not sure how much this matters - I do not assume that most people go into medicine for the money (though maybe some cynical adcomms do?) unless something else they say/do suggests this. In fact, mentioning this might leave the opposite impression - like you only stayed in music because you could do it comfortably.
Tone is hard to convey in posts, but I'm a little troubled by the way you said this - do you think your desire to go into medicine is more genuine/noble than someone who is leaving a lower paying career to pursue medicine? Hopefully, you can portray your desire to be in medicine without focusing on finances. You have a great story - leaving a well-paying career is the least interesting part of it.

Ah..I see the point you are making here. I think there is a bit of confusion regarding my motivation for mentioning the whole "comfortable living" thing. However, Im glad this misunderstanding occured, since a similar miscommunication could take place during my application process, if I fail to find a better way to make my intentions and motivations clear.

I suppose my wish to discuss the details concerning my "living comfortably" and willingness to leave what has been, a rewarding career, has more to do with my desire to illustrate what are NOT reasons for my decision to turn to a career in medicine. That is a very convoluted way of saying that I want it to be clear that my desire to start from scratch and pursue a career in medicine, has nothing to do with my inability to support myself in what might be misconstrued as my "true passion", or "first choice".
In my experience, most people assume (often correctly) that musicians are rarely capable of supporting themselves through income earned as a musician. It is both a widespread belief, and an unfortunate fact. Most musicians I know, despite being immensely talented in their field, are lucky if they can scrape by month to month. I have no shame in admitting that if I did not have poker, I would not generate enough income to simply pay my bills each month.
The relevance of all of this, is that many musicians, despite their passion and talent, find themselves in a position where they essentially have no choice but to change careers (very often this occurs around my age, 30). They are willing and able to be a "broke musician" in their early and mid twenties, perhaps hoping they will, in time, find a way in which to support themselves. However, as they become older, perhaps start a family etc, the need to generate a substantial and consistent income, forces them into a career change.

So, I suppose my instinct to describe my unique situation, stems from my fear that Adcoms will assume that I wouldnt be sitting in front of them if I were capable of supporting myself through music or supplemental income. Essentially, I dont want med schools to assume that becoming a doctor is my "backup plan", only to be pursued if I fail to support myself in what they perceive as my "true love"-music.

Because the truth of my situation is that there is no financial or other aspect "forcing my hand" to abandon music, my reasoning has been that if I make this fact known to Adcoms, this information would essentially "disarm" their potential reservations that I wouldnt be sitting in front of them if I could support myself through music.

So my wish to disclose all of this to Adcoms is not because (as you questioned), I believe it supports my belief that my desire to pursue medicine is more genuine/noble then otheres. Rather, I am just trying to put myself on equal ground in relation to my fellow applicant. I sense that the more "traditional" applicant's motivations would not be as seriously questioned. I think that when a traditional applicant is sitting in front of the Adcom, the Adcom gives the applicant the benefit of the doubt, and is not particularly suspect of his reasons for pursuing medicine.
Im fearful that without fully explaining my situation, my motivations might not be so readily accepted as pure.

So-after all of that explaining, am I being absurd? Am I over-thinking? It wouldnt be the first time, so Id love some opinions on this matter. Thanks-SH
 
I suppose my wish to discuss the details concerning my "living comfortably" and willingness to leave what has been, a rewarding career, has more to do with my desire to illustrate what are NOT reasons for my decision to turn to a career in medicine. That is a very convoluted way of saying that I want it to be clear that my desire to start from scratch and pursue a career in medicine, has nothing to do with my inability to support myself in what might be misconstrued as my "true passion", or "first choice".
The relevance of all of this, is that many musicians, despite their passion and talent, find themselves in a position where they essentially have no choice but to change careers (very often this occurs around my age, 30). They are willing and able to be a "broke musician" in their early and mid twenties, perhaps hoping they will, in time, find a way in which to support themselves. However, as they become older, perhaps start a family etc, the need to generate a substantial and consistent income, forces them into a career change.

So-after all of that explaining, am I being absurd? Am I over-thinking? It wouldnt be the first time, so Id love some opinions on this matter. Thanks-SH

Thanks for the clarification. In short, I do think that you are over-thinking this. The onus is on you (and on every applicant, and maybe particularly on non-trads) to explain why you want to go into medicine. The reasons that are not your reasons should take up little or no space in your precious 1325 characters, or whatever it is. Given your particular concern about biases towards struggling musicians, you could spend half a sentence dismissing that issue if it would make you feel more confident, but no more.
There is an expression in white water (and other situations where there hazards and noise) to always "point positive". That is to say, if you are swimming a rapid and I point to something, I'm pointing to safety, not to a giant rock. Similarly, you will be more convincing if you focus on your positive reasons for going into medicine. Maybe this is a common concern, and maybe it isn't, but by attempting to eliminate a reason, you might be bringing it into the reader's mind for the first time.
If you get the feeling from an individual interviewer that they feel that you are approaching medicine as a "second choice" you can clarify your economic situation - I think this, like the poker issue, is easier to discuss in person, one-on-one, where you can clear up misunderstanding more easily.
Now, to contradict myself a little: so much of an application essay is HOW you say it. I would try writing versions of your PS with a lot of poker, with a little poker and without poker, with and without financial explanations, etc. See which ones tell your story best, and/or give the versions to someone you trust to read. Or several people you trust. Your time might be better spent just trying it than spending more time trying to reason through it.
 
By the way. I am actually interested in the answer to the question. What is the difference between a gambling addict and a professional gambler who happens to be winning recently?

Typically, someone who is addicted to poker will become increasingly reckless as they lose- go on "tilt", bet larger and larger amounts of money, bets $ they can't afford to lose, neglect other responsibilities due to large amounts of time spent playing poker.

A professional poker play, if he is on a losing streak, will typically carefully examine why he is losing, and temporarily cut back on the $ amounts he is wagering and play poker games with lower buy-ins/limits.
The professional poker player typically is not getting a large thrill from playing; he is playing a discipline game in order to make $.

Of course, the issue isn't black and white, and there can be some overlap between the two. And in addition to the professional poker play and the addicted poker player, there is also the recreational poker play- like myself.
 
Top