Osteopathic Schools Ranked by MCAT

exPCM · Dec 31, 2009

http://www.atsu.edu/faculty/chamberlain/ranmcat.htm

see also: http://www.aacom.org/resources/bookstore/cib/Documents/cib2010/2010cib-p10-13.pdf
Overall latest mean is 25.5 for admitted students.
Should I expect to see posters from every school saying that their school has higher numbers than the mean MCAT (which is a mathematical impossibility) just like almost every school is above the mean per the thread on the COMLEX pass rates?

ShyRem · Dec 31, 2009

The data is old, taken from 2006. UNE's average last year was around 27 or 28 for matriculated students. That doesn't mean there weren't some far below the average.

exPCM · Dec 31, 2009

ShyRem said:
The data is old, taken from 2006. UNE's average last year was around 27 or 28 for matriculated students. That doesn't mean there weren't some far below the average.

The data is the latest published. The second link is for the 2007 entering class. Of course will people now post that the admissions office at every school gives numbers above the mean?. Do you think heresay from admissions offices is more accurate than these tables?.

Laryngophed · Dec 31, 2009

exPCM said:
The data is the latest published. The second link is for the 2007 entering class. Of course will people now post that the admissions office at every school gives numbers above the mean?. Do you think heresay from admissions offices is more accurate than these tables?.

I'm no law student, but I'm pretty sure the links you provided are hearsay as well. I'm not at home so I can't confirm that but I'd bet you lunch it is.

csmittyB · Dec 31, 2009

exPCM said:
http://www.atsu.edu/faculty/chamberlain/ranmcat.htm

see also: http://www.aacom.org/resources/bookstore/cib/Documents/cib2010/2010cib-p10-13.pdf
Overall latest mean is 25.5 for admitted students.
Should I expect to see posters from every school saying that their school has higher numbers than the mean MCAT (which is a mathematical impossibility) just like almost every school is above the mean per the thread on the COMLEX pass rates?

Why is an attending trolling in the pre-osteo forum?

desijigga · Dec 31, 2009

Bacchus said:
Well I'll support exPCM in this instance. PCOM was an average of 25.8 this year. Not too far from 25.5

+1

KCOMs average is also somewhere near 26 I heard for this year, so close to 25.94...

scdocusc · Dec 31, 2009

this data is old and not even from 2006 it's from 2004 which was NOT revised. I've been looking at this stupid chart for so many years. Anyone who takes this information without reading it critically is misleading people. Stay classy

Laryngophed · Dec 31, 2009

Bacchus said:
Well I'll support exPCM in this instance. PCOM was an average of 25.8 this year. Not too far from 25.5

desijigga said:
+1

KCOMs average is also somewhere near 26 I heard for this year, so close to 25.94...

I have no doubt these numbers are pretty close. It is unlikely that the average for any school is going to jump on the order of whole points in a given year, without being an anomaly.

I think what would be more useful would be a graph with several years worth of data on it. In this case, like with match lists, a years worth of data is a snapshot and those often don't tell the whole story, whereas a trend would be more useful.

MLT2MT2DO · Dec 31, 2009

exPCM said:
http://www.atsu.edu/faculty/chamberlain/ranmcat.htm

see also: http://www.aacom.org/resources/bookstore/cib/Documents/cib2010/2010cib-p10-13.pdf
Overall latest mean is 25.5 for admitted students.
Should I expect to see posters from every school saying that their school has higher numbers than the mean MCAT (which is a mathematical impossibility) just like almost every school is above the mean per the thread on the COMLEX pass rates?

ExPCM, I've noticed you carry around fairly negative vibe on these boards. Can I ask why?

Laryngophed · Dec 31, 2009

MLT2MT2DO said:
ExPCM, I've noticed you carry around fairly negative vibe on these boards. Can I ask why?

I think exPCM has experienced some anti-D.O. bias (real or perceived) and is genuinely interested in changing things. I happen to think his(her?) methodology leaves something to be desired, but I think the motivations are genuine.

scpod · Dec 31, 2009

exPCM said:
...Do you think heresay from admissions offices is more accurate than these tables?.

FYI, since you weren't spending all your attending time posting in the osteopathic pre-med forum when the original report came out, we discussed this back then. The data that was available from Princeton Review was self-reported data ("hearsay") from the schools, as old as 2003 in some cases. So, while it may indeed be the newest data you could find published, it's highly flawed. Do you use highly flawed data in other areas of your life or just here?

JaggerPlate · Dec 31, 2009

This is starting to get so old. I'll never understand the urge to break down and dismiss something without offering real solutions or doing anything besides complaining. Like a dog chasing its tail. Here's some more conjecture:

1. I'm a student with a 30++ MCAT going to a DO school. I was also far from the highest score I heard on the interview trail, nor was I everrr the only 30+ in the interview group.

2. Each school I went to advertised their newest data as 3.5/28 or 27. This was the numbers they gave, take it as you will, apparently the given data is from 04.

3. Again, if you are looking for skewed numbers, go to www.mdapplicants.com -> select a school, and look at the DO numbers ... 28, 29, 3.5 etc.

To be honest, this random information I grabbed off the internet is just as valid as the initial information presented. EXPCM will now discredit all this, and that's fine, I don't care nor am I going to get into one of these pointless battles again where NOTHING is accomplished, yet the complaining goes on and ON.

Meat · Dec 31, 2009

I like that the OP was trying to share some information he believed to be new / relevant, and everyone jumps down his throat for committing such a TRAVESTY.

On edge over here in the DO forum much?

Laryngophed · Dec 31, 2009

Meat said:
I like that the OP was trying to share some information he believed to be new / relevant, and everyone jumps down his throat for committing such a TRAVESTY.

On edge over here in the DO forum much?

While possible, this particular poster has a history of posting either material or making comments that could be considered inflammatory. Not everything is as it seems.

JaggerPlate · Dec 31, 2009

Physio Doc 2 Be said:
While possible, this particular poster has a history of posting either material or making comments that could be considered inflammatory. Not everything is as it seems.

Yup.

scpod · Dec 31, 2009

Physio Doc 2 Be said:
While possible, this particular poster has a history of posting either material or making comments that could be considered inflammatory. Not everything is as it seems.

I agree. In fact, here is a recent post where the OP lends his version of "help" to a Carribean student:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=9054178&postcount=20

exPCM said:
HAHA
Since you ended up going to a Carribean medical school it is probably safe to assume that you are not the sharpest tool in the shed.
So here is a basic calculation for you:
My rate of posting here at <700 posts in almost 4 years is much less than your rate of >500 posts in about 1 year.
Do you think pathologists are so busy all day and all night that a pathologist would have no time to post?
How does a med student like you have so much time to post that frequently?
I sure didn't waste that kind of time as a med student - I studied a lot and got into AOA (you have to be in the top 1/6 of the class to be eligible: see http://www.alphaomegaalpha.org/Chapt...nstitution.htm) and had excellent scores on all steps of the USMLE. Now as a practicing physician I do some CME on my own time and post information and advice here that I did not know when I was a med student.
Here is my advice for you:
Spend more time studying and less time on SDN.
P.S. As far as controversial topics it appears anything about the Carribean is controversial to you as I sense you are quite defensive about not making the cut for admission at an LCME accredited school http://www.lcme.org/directry.htm

I hope that clears some things up.

MLT2MT2DO · Dec 31, 2009

Meat said:
I like that the OP was trying to share some information he believed to be new / relevant, and everyone jumps down his throat for committing such a TRAVESTY.

On edge over here in the DO forum much?

You got an 11 on VR so let me put it this way: reread the OP and think about what the "author" was trying to say.

JaggerPlate · Dec 31, 2009

scpod said:
I agree. In fact, here is a recent post where the OP lends his version of "help" to a Carribean student:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=9054178&postcount=20

I hope that clears some things up.

I was under the impression that EX was a DO and DOs schools didn't use AOA???

Laryngophed · Dec 31, 2009

JaggerPlate said:
I was under the impression that EX was a DO and DOs schools didn't use AOA???

The same here.

st2205 · Dec 31, 2009

Keep in mind that each school's accepted GPA should be higher than the matriculated GPA.

Dr Yiot · Dec 31, 2009

quick question here.... who cares?

ShyRem · Dec 31, 2009

SDN does not, nor will it ever, condone the total separation of DO and MD. They are equivalent degrees. If an allopathic physician/resident/student wishes to post in osteo or pre-osteo, it is welcomed as long as it is not divisive (i.e. DO vs. MD).

Likewise, osteopathic physicians/residents/students are welcome to post in allo or pre-allo under the same rules.

Now. Let's all get along. Contribute to the conversation, post information in rebuttal, etc. but petty bickering and insulting other members' degrees will not be tolerated.

In the spirit of rebuttal, does a higher MCAT or GPA necessarily make a better physician? There are plenty of students every year who struggle who had 3.9-4.0 GPA and 33+ MCAT scores. And there are plenty of success stories with 20-25 MCATs and 3.0 GPAs who do quite well in medical school. The bickering regarding numbers, while a potentially intellectually stimulating discussion, has little to do with the person. Of course it has to do with admissions into medical school, but once there the field is more level.

123165 · Dec 31, 2009

exPCM said:
http://www.atsu.edu/faculty/chamberlain/ranmcat.htm

see also: http://www.aacom.org/resources/bookstore/cib/Documents/cib2010/2010cib-p10-13.pdf
Overall latest mean is 25.5 for admitted students.
Should I expect to see posters from every school saying that their school has higher numbers than the mean MCAT (which is a mathematical impossibility) just like almost every school is above the mean per the thread on the COMLEX pass rates?

Holy cow batman. Let it go. It is New Year's Eve.

In order to post something contributing to the thread, I will ask for a clarification. Is there a question that you are asking, ex? I think you will definitely find that the mean of most schools is higher than your 2004 data.

Dr Yiot · Dec 31, 2009

ShyRem said:
SDN does not, nor will it ever, condone the total separation of DO and MD. They are equivalent degrees. If an allopathic physician/resident/student wishes to post in osteo or pre-osteo, it is welcomed as long as it is not divisive (i.e. DO vs. MD).

Likewise, osteopathic physicians/residents/students are welcome to post in allo or pre-allo under the same rules.

Now. Let's all get along. Contribute to the conversation, post information in rebuttal, etc. but petty bickering and insulting other members' degrees will not be tolerated.

In the spirit of rebuttal, does a higher MCAT or GPA necessarily make a better physician? There are plenty of students every year who struggle who had 3.9-4.0 GPA and 33+ MCAT scores. And there are plenty of success stories with 20-25 MCATs and 3.0 GPAs who do quite well in medical school. The bickering regarding numbers, while a potentially intellectually stimulating discussion, has little to do with the person. Of course it has to do with admissions into medical school, but once there the field is more level.

exactly, people need to get over the numbers because once you are in you are in. You are completely equal and although I am still pre med. I bet there are a number of people who have average GPA's and MCAT scores who once they get into med school blow up. These discussions are getting old. I honestly can say I am happy that there is a difference in MCAT score and GPA for DO schools and that they can be forgiving. Otherwise I might not have the chance to become a physician. SO I thank aacom for giving me the opportunity.

EmersonAnne · Dec 31, 2009

exPCM said:
The data is the latest published. The second link is for the 2007 entering class. Of course will people now post that the admissions office at every school gives numbers above the mean?. Do you think heresay from admissions offices is more accurate than these tables?.

The data is outdated. KCUMB's average for the Class of 2013 was over 27.

Daedra22 · Dec 31, 2009

Dr Yiot said:
exactly, people need to get over the numbers because once you are in you are in. You are completely equal and although I am still pre med. I bet there are a number of people who have average GPA's and MCAT scores who once they get into med school blow up. These discussions are getting old. I honestly can say I am happy that there is a difference in MCAT score and GPA for DO schools and that they can be forgiving. Otherwise I might not have the chance to become a physician. SO I thank aacom for giving me the opportunity.

👍 Exactly my feelings. I had a 27 MCAT and did not get any MD interviews... but thanks to osteopathic schools, I get to be a doctor. And hey, no one in my family has ever even gotten an associates, so I couldn't be happier.

On another note, obsession with numbers just frustrates me generally. I have been to multiple universities, 2 that were small un-competitive undergrad schools, and one which was considered "competitive" and ranked on top 50 lists. I got a much better education at the smaller, less-competitive schools because I liked the environment and the teaching philosophy. The larger school "looks" better... but I feel like I'm getting a sub-par education, compared to what I could have had. It's not all numbers; it's about you, your choices, and your preferences.

exPCM · Jan 1, 2010

Kevon said:
Holy cow batman. Let it go. It is New Year's Eve.

In order to post something contributing to the thread, I will ask for a clarification. Is there a question that you are asking, ex? I think you will definitely find that the mean of most schools is higher than your 2004 data.

Can you read?
The data I linked to above goes up to 2007.
The data comes directly from AACOM's brand spanking new 2010 Osteopathic Medical College Information Book. So why don't you call AACOM and complain to them that their brand new book is out of date?

see link:
https://www.netforumondemand.com/ew...&prd_key=f63e4549-dfd4-4237-ba72-2ebc1b02437f
Just look at the tables on pages 10-13 here: http://www.aacom.org/resources/Pages/2010cib.aspx

It amazes me how many posters here jump to conclusions without even bothering to look at and read the data. Again if UNECOM is really averaging a 28 MCAT and KCUMB a 27 then you can extrapolate that there are likely two comparably sized schools with means of 23 and 24 if the overall mean for all schools is 25.5 - kapish.
Do all of you out there believe every guy who tells you he has an 8" johnson?
If not then why do believe every random bit of information from someone at an admissions office?
It will serve you well in medicine to get your information from official sources (e.g. AACOM databook) rather than someone who may be blowing their own horn or speaking off the cuff.

exPCM · Jan 1, 2010

scpod said:
I agree. In fact, here is a recent post where the OP lends his version of "help" to a Carribean student:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=9054178&postcount=20

I hope that clears some things up.

Way to take things out of context.
Why don't you post the smear from the Carribean student that preceded this post?

Physio Doc 2 Be said:
While possible, this particular poster has a history of posting either material or making comments that could be considered inflammatory. Not everything is as it seems.

Inflammatory is in the eye of the beholder. My quest is to post truth. If you find truth inflammatory then that's your issue. I am not a DO but my wife is and I have great respect for DOs.

Physio Doc 2 Be said:
I have no doubt these numbers are pretty close. It is unlikely that the average for any school is going to jump on the order of whole points in a given year, without being an anomaly.

I think what would be more useful would be a graph with several years worth of data on it. In this case, like with match lists, a years worth of data is a snapshot and those often don't tell the whole story, whereas a trend would be more useful.

There was a table with a least 3 years of data which I linked to and have now cut and pasted in my post just above for those who were unable to find it.
Here are more years below after a quick search:

elftown said:
I would expect almost everyone to say their school is above average. Your information is almost 3-4 years old, depending which link you click. You are aware the stats keep going up, eh?

Yes, I see an increase from 24.98 in 2000 to 25.52 in 2007 - Are you trying to tell me this is a monstrous increase in 8 years?
With the huge recent increases in osteopathic and allopathic enrollments and new schools (RVU, PNWU, UCF, Virginia Tech, FIU, William Carey) you don't think schools will have to dig deeper into the applicant pool?
Yet again I bet we will continue to see more posts about how schools A-Z are all above the mean MCAT score.

scdocusc said:
this data is old and not even from 2006 it's from 2004 which was NOT revised. I've been looking at this stupid chart for so many years. Anyone who takes this information without reading it critically is misleading people. Stay classy

Do you have any other sage advice for us?

exPCM · Jan 1, 2010

csmittyB said:
Why is an attending trolling in the pre-osteo forum?

Yes, I see your point. Better to not have any attendings post here. There is no way any attending can know as much as the typical pre-med student after all. How foolish of me not to figure out that attendings are incapable of giving any advice or express any views that are of any value.

ShyRem said:
SDN does not, nor will it ever, condone the total separation of DO and MD. They are equivalent degrees. If an allopathic physician/resident/student wishes to post in osteo or pre-osteo, it is welcomed as long as it is not divisive (i.e. DO vs. MD).

Likewise, osteopathic physicians/residents/students are welcome to post in allo or pre-allo under the same rules.

Now. Let's all get along. Contribute to the conversation, post information in rebuttal, etc. but petty bickering and insulting other members' degrees will not be tolerated.

In the spirit of rebuttal, does a higher MCAT or GPA necessarily make a better physician? There are plenty of students every year who struggle who had 3.9-4.0 GPA and 33+ MCAT scores. And there are plenty of success stories with 20-25 MCATs and 3.0 GPAs who do quite well in medical school. The bickering regarding numbers, while a potentially intellectually stimulating discussion, has little to do with the person. Of course it has to do with admissions into medical school, but once there the field is more level.

Good post!
In the spirit of rebuttal there is data to support that there is a correlation in general (this does not mean there are not exceptions) between MCAT scores and medical school performance:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16186610?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_SingleItemSupl.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=1&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed
So to those who say scores don't matter at all there are many adcom members that will disagree and there is a rationale behind it.

However, you will always be able to find exceptions.

beckhunter116 · Jan 1, 2010

Why does it really matter? Is this out of some concern that we believe every word that comes from a schools mouth? If everyone does believe the stuff that comes from schools, without any investigation, then they are very naive. I suppose a better way to get that point across would be to say that we can't trust these places without doing our own research.

Are we supposed to cringe after looking at this data of lower MCAT scores and decide to not pursue medicine? Has anyone in medicine ever thought that possible we should look at the types of people that have been accepted yet who are miserable by year 2, and some who will remain miserable until the day they stop practicing. That possibly the person who makes the highest score may not want to practice in an area that is needed. This all may have nothing to do with an MCAT score, it probably doesn't, but my point is that sometimes a number simple can't reflect what we can achieve as a person.

Personally, I could care less about the average of a school, because I can't afford to worry about others stats I only care that I am competitive or as competitive as I can be. If I went to a school and I found out I had the highest MCAT score of the whole class, it wouldn't matter a bit to me and I wouldn't treat my classmates any different. If I went to a school and found out I had the lowest MCAT it still wouldn't matter to me...the point is is that at that time my MCAT means nothing. I need to be focused on classes, then on boards, then on rotations, and then on matching.

beckhunter116 · Jan 1, 2010

exPCM said:
Good post!
In the spirit of rebuttal there is data to support that there is a correlation in general (this does not mean there are not exceptions) between MCAT scores and medical school performance:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...nkpos=1&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed
So to those who say scores don't matter at all there are many adcom members that will disagree and there is a rationale behind it.

However, you will always be able to find exceptions.

I could only read the abstract of this article (not sure if others can read the whole thing) so I will just add that while there may be a correlation to MCAT/school performance, but from that article can we tell the difference between passing or doing honors. My point being that say someone has a low MCAT, goes to med school does average to low average, but passes everything and then does FP. Maybe that was all they wanted out of medical school and now they could be serving in an area that greatly needs a FP. There low performance meant nothing if they passed and became a licensed doctor.

Now maybe you are thinking of the people who have the low gpa and low MCAT on here who are concerned that as a DO they can't do derm, optho, ortho, plastics, etc. Can they really make a turn around in med school? Who knows, better yet who cares? If they can great for them I'm happy, if they can't then I'm sorry, but it's there own fault.

Dr Yiot · Jan 1, 2010

beckhunter116 said:
I could only read the abstract of this article (not sure if others can read the whole thing) so I will just add that while their may be a correlation to MCAT/school performance, but from that article can we tell the difference between passing or doing honors. My point being that say someone has a low MCAT, goes to med school does average to low average, but passes everything and then does FP. Maybe that was all they wanted out of medical school and now they could be serving in an area that greatly needs a FP. There low performance meant nothing if they passed and became a licensed doctor.

Now maybe you are thinking of the people who have the low gpa and low MCAT on here who are concerned that as a DO they can't do derm, optho, ortho, plastics, etc. Can they really make a turn around in med school? Who knows, better yet who cares? If they can great for them I'm happy, if they can't then I'm sorry, but it's there own fault.

your post made me cry a little bit it was that good.

I wonder what the OP mcat score was. As an attending and not a DO I wonder if he realizes the average MCAT when he applies was much lower. I know only 4 years ago for MD schools the average was near a 28. By my calculations though he would only be a resident at most. Can anyone pull up statistics of what the average MCAT score was in 2002 and REALLY see if there is any correlation to performance as a med student and mcat scores as expcm suggests. Because if this is true then I wouldnt want any doctor touching me if he didn't pull at least a 30. BTW the neurosurgeon I shadowed, he has been practicing for 15 years I would def. ask him what his mcat score was before he even TOUCHED me.

exPCM · Jan 1, 2010

beckhunter116 said:
Why does it really matter? Is this out of some concern that we believe every word that comes from a schools mouth? If everyone does believe the stuff that comes from schools, without any investigation, then they are very naive. I suppose a better way to get that point across would be to say that we can't trust these places without doing our own research.
You are exactly correct. However judging by other posts I have seen there are others who seem to take what they hear from any random school member as the Gospel - a big mistake IMHO. This is the same mentality I saw among people who bought hook, line, and sinker the line in 2004-2007 from realtors that you must buy now or be priced out forever. I am not saying you can't trust anybody but realize that these schools all have filling all their seats with people who will not flunk out (and thereby pay all 4 years of big tuition dollars) as an extremely high priority.

Are we supposed to cringe after looking at this data of lower MCAT scores and decide to not pursue medicine? Has anyone in medicine ever thought that possible we should look at the types of people that have been accepted yet who are miserable by year 2, and some who will remain miserable until the day they stop practicing. That possibly the person who makes the highest score may not want to practice in an area that is needed. This all may have nothing to do with an MCAT score, it probably doesn't, but my point is that sometimes a number simple can't reflect what we can achieve as a person.
As I said there is a correlation but there are many exceptions. There are many who perform far above and far below what you would think if you just looked at the MCAT score. Just like in undergrad a lot of hard work can go a long way in med school. It is up to you to make the most of your opportunity.
Personally, I could care less about the average of a school, because I can't afford to worry about others stats I only care that I am competitive or as competitive as I can be. If I went to a school and I found out I had the highest MCAT score of the whole class, it wouldn't matter a bit to me and I wouldn't treat my classmates any different. If I went to a school and found out I had the lowest MCAT it still wouldn't matter to me...the point is is that at that time my MCAT means nothing. I need to be focused on classes, then on boards, then on rotations, and then on matching.
The average of the school only matters so much in that even if you are a star performer, if your school turms out many lackluster students there are unfortunately some people in residency programs who will discount your efforts due to the phenomenon of guilt by association.
As am extreme example (does not apply to most DO schools at this time) there is a Carribean student poster who is trying to match anesthesiology with very good board scores/grades, etc. who applied to over 70 anesthesiology programs and has only received 7 interview invites - he is likely an unfortunate victim of the guilt by association phenomenon.
If a school has a poor COMLEX pass rate for example, they may have on average a pool of poorer performing students and/or a flawed curriculum. This may lead to the school getting a tarnished reputation if they do not end up having uniformly competent and well prepared graduates going out into the hospitals for rotations and then on into residency programs. So the idea that your individual effort is all that matters is true only up to a point. If a school never flunks out a student and continually let students repeat classes IMO that is a red flag for a school that is more concerned with $$$$ than the caliber of its graduates (again does not currently apply to most DO schools as far as I know). I seem to remember reading a post, please correct me if I am wrong, that one school (?Touro-NY?) adjusted grades upwards rather than letting students flunk an exam - this is a red flag IMO. As another extreme example there was a an article recently about how Ross University (I know this is not a DO school I am illustrating a concept) allowed so many repeats of courses that many students there take 6 years to graduate - a red flag of putting $$$$$ over standards IMO : read here at this link: http://www.tampabay.com/news/health/medicine/article1061189.ece

On the West Coast were I am there have traditionally (this is changing) not been very many DO schools and some residency programs out here are not as familiar with DOs. Hopefully that will continue to change.

exPCM · Jan 1, 2010

Dr Yiot said:
your post made me cry a little bit it was that good.

I wonder what the OP mcat score was. As an attending and not a DO I wonder if he realizes the average MCAT when he applies was much lower. I know only 4 years ago for MD schools the average was near a 28. By my calculations though he would only be a resident at most. Can anyone pull up statistics of what the average MCAT score was in 2002 and REALLY see if there is any correlation to performance as a med student and mcat scores as expcm suggests. Because if this is true then I wouldnt want any doctor touching me if he didn't pull at least a 30. BTW the neurosurgeon I shadowed, he has been practicing for 15 years I would def. ask him what his mcat score was before he even TOUCHED me.

My MCAT score (which was fine) or the MCAT score of your neurosurgeon is not the barometer of competency. There are many other factors. I do not recall ever seeing a patient ask a practicing physician what their MCAT score was. Very few residency programs ask for MCAT scores. However like I posted previously there is some correlation in general with med school performance. If there was no correlation then the MCAT IMO shoud be completely abolished. There are standardized tests/shelf exams in med school and unfortunately they can matter. Having poor COMLEX/USMLE scores for example is not a winning formula to land an orthopedic surgery residency in general. Your post does not come off as one I would expect from an attending. Do you have a chip on your shoulder due to a poor score on your MCAT?

J-Rad · Jan 1, 2010

exPCM said:
...If a school has a poor COMLEX pass rate for example, they may have on average a pool of poorer performing students and/or a flawed curriculum. This may lead to the school getting a tarnished reputation if they do not end up having uniformly competent and well prepared graduates going out into the hospitals for rotations and then on into residency programs. So the idea that your individual effort is all that matters is true only up to a point. If a school never flunks out a student and continually let students repeat classes IMO that is a red flag for a school that is more concerned with $$$$ than the caliber of its graduates (again does not currently apply to most DO schools as far as I know). I seem to remember reading a post, correct me if I am wrong, that Touro-NY adjusted grades upwards rather than letting students flunk an exam - this is a red flag IMO.

Ex, I have nor problem with you, as an attending, posting here (I posted as an MS, resident, and now as fellow). Nor do I have a problem with constructive and articulate critiques of the profession; there are many on the DO boards that offer that. My problem is that, like many in medicine, you play too much "what am I thinking". You drop the OP and say...waiting...waiting...waiting...oh, MS argued with date of data-argue point, repeat, repeat, repeat [still waiting], repeat, repeat...waiting for some interpretation for the meaning of the data...waiting...and...Now! It wasn't until the above post that you offered any meaningful interpretation of that data, correct or not. You know you're posting in a pre-med forum so the likelihood that a major proportion of the readers is going to need help in seeing the underlying meaning. And for the proportion of readers who have relevant knowledge/experience when you come in and just drop a nugget like that without saying anything other than "Discuss" (think Mike Meyers) while also leaving no reason to believe that you give half a rat's ***** about the DO community/profession then you're going to come off like a troll. I've read enough of your posts, elsewhere, to sort of believe that you're not a troll but the "what am I thinking" $h** doesn't work any better on SDN than it does in real life (despite how many doctors are in love with it). So if you have something to say, say it. If you think the above point is important, then it should have been stated at the beginning of all of this and saved a little bit of the pissing-go-round (yeah, I know some back and forth on the point still would have been there, but the integrity of your intentions would be less in question). If you seek to educate, don't inspire confusion. Even I was wondering if you were trying to broadly state that all DO schools are inadequate because they have lower MCAT scores (which I don't believe is true).

123165 · Jan 1, 2010

exPCM said:
My MCAT score (which was fine) or the MCAT score of your neurosurgeon is not the barometer of competency. There are many other factors. I do not recall ever seeing a patient ask a practicing physician what their MCAT score was. Very few residency programs ask for MCAT scores. However like I posted previously there is some correlation in general with med school performance. If there was no correlation then the MCAT IMO shoud be completely abolished. There are standardized tests/shelf exams in med school and unfortunately they can matter. Having poor COMLEX/USMLE scores for example is not a winning formula to land an orthopedic surgery residency in general. Your post does not come off as one I would expect from an attending. Do you have a chip on your shoulder due to a poor score on your MCAT?

I am still not sure what your point was in creating the thread.

Are you saying that premeds are little kiddies that believe everything the schools tell them?

....

Maybe you should be specific about who you claim thinks that numbers are gospel. I am pretty sure you are at least including JP an I. For sake of clarity, this is completely untrue. I even stated something to that effect in the COMLEX thread where we had a very similar discussion.

As for the MCAT, we need a standardized test of some fashion, students cannot be compared academically on GPA alone because of some schools being easier/harder than others. Also, I think that even if you come from one of these schools with a tarnished reputation, your COMLEX scores will speak for you.

exPCM · Jan 1, 2010

J-Rad said:
Ex, I have nor problem with you, as an attending, posting here (I posted as an MS, resident, and now as fellow). Nor do I have a problem with constructive and articulate critiques of the profession; there are many on the DO boards that offer that. My problem is that, like many in medicine, you play too much "what am I thinking". You drop the OP and say...waiting...waiting...waiting...oh, MS argued with date of data-argue point, repeat, repeat, repeat [still waiting], repeat, repeat...waiting for some interpretation for the meaning of the data...waiting...and...Now! It wasn't until the above post that you offered any meaningful interpretation of that data, correct or not. You know you're posting in a pre-med forum so the likelihood that a major proportion of the readers is going to need help in seeing the underlying meaning. And for the proportion of readers who have relevant knowledge/experience when you come in and just drop a nugget like that without saying anything other than "Discuss" (think Mike Meyers) while also leaving no reason to believe that you give half a rat's ***** about the DO community/profession then you're going to come off like a troll. I've read enough of your posts, elsewhere, to sort of believe that you're not a troll but the "what am I thinking" $h** doesn't work any better on SDN than it does in real life (despite how many doctors are in love with it). So if you have something to say, say it. If you think the above point is important, then it should have been stated at the beginning of all of this and saved a little bit of the pissing-go-round (yeah, I know some back and forth on the point still would have been there, but the integrity of your intentions would be less in question). If you seek to educate, don't inspire confusion. Even I was wondering if you were trying to broadly state that all DO schools are inadequate because they have lower MCAT scores (which I don't believe is true).

Thanks - good points. However I did have to learn to deal with the "what am I thinking attendings" although I am not a proponent of that style. It is interesting how just posting true information (actual MCAT data for schools) can push so many buttons.

exPCM · Jan 1, 2010

Kevon said:
I am still not sure what your point was in creating the thread.

Are you saying that premeds are little kiddies that believe everything the schools tell them?

....

Maybe you should be specific about who you claim thinks that numbers are gospel. I am pretty sure you are at least including JP an I. For sake of clarity, this is completely untrue. I even stated something to that effect in the COMLEX thread where we had a very similar discussion.

As for the MCAT, we need a standardized test of some fashion, students cannot be compared academically on GPA alone because of some schools being easier/harder than others. Also, I think that even if you come from one of these schools with a tarnished reputation, your COMLEX scores will speak for you.

Well this is funny. My original post listed for informational purposes actual data on the MCAT scores as opposed to hearsay. I was then seemingly blasted by a number of posters saying the data was old (from the 2010 AACOM book) and that scores at the schools were higher (seemingly all at or higher than the mean as I predicted in the original post) based on what students were told apparently at various schools. So yes it seems there are a number here who post like they believe everything the schools tell them.

As I posted above (using the student applying to anesthesiology as an example) good COMLEX/USMLE scores help but they are not the only factor.

MLT2MT2DO · Jan 1, 2010

I wonder how these numbers would look if you threw the latest class from LECOM-Bradenton that took the boards into the mix. I don't have access to anything but the abstract of that pubmed article, but I'm curious the size of the testing group and from what universities.

The only thing the lower MCAT numbers do for me, is make me realize I might not have to "smoke" the MCAT to get into the school I want to, to become the internist I want to be...

J-Rad · Jan 1, 2010

exPCM said:
It is interesting how just posting true information (actual MCAT data for schools) can push so many buttons.

Bernie Madoff is a Jew
Scott Roeder is a Christian
OJ Simpson is black
Capt. Amy Lynn Svoboda was a woman
DOs had much better outcomes than MDs during the 1918 influenza pandemic* (apparently, so did chiropractors in some areas http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1733660/chiropractic_care_during_1918_influenza.html?cat=37)

Is it really that interesting? Facts, devoid of context, can be extraordinarily inflammatory depending on how and where they are presented.
And we all endure "what-am-I-thinking 'teaching'". If you're not a proponent of the style, then don't use it, especially not here. It serves even less of a useful function here. When you choose, you are plenty articulate and can make a point. Just get to the friggin' point quicker.

*http://www.jaoa.org/cgi/content/full/108/9/484

ShyRem · Jan 1, 2010

To play devil's advocate:

Of course, the other interesting question is that the published data from AACOM also comes from each school's administration. So, if you look at each school's website which posts their average MCAT scores directly from the administration vs. a publication which goes through many many hands after the many hands in each school's administration, well it's a game of telephone. The more hands touch a figure or fact, the more chance it's wrong. Also, have we considered the possibility that the same person from each school is not giving both figures? For example, who is actually putting the information on the school website each year vs. who is sending information to AACOM for their publications? I know at UNECOM, the figure of a 27 average MCAT was directly from the admissions director's mouth. True? I don't know. But I would tend to believe something I hear in person from an individual in charge more than a publication where I don't know who gave the information to the publisher and who has possibly changed it/edited it/put it in wrong.

Just a thought.

EmersonAnne · Jan 1, 2010

exPCM said:
Can you read?
The data I linked to above goes up to 2007.

UP TO 2007? What does that mean? That one school updated their MCAT average in 2007 while the others last updated back in 2001?

exPCM · Jan 1, 2010

ShyRem said:
To play devil's advocate:

Of course, the other interesting question is that the published data from AACOM also comes from each school's administration. So, if you look at each school's website which posts their average MCAT scores directly from the administration vs. a publication which goes through many many hands after the many hands in each school's administration, well it's a game of telephone. The more hands touch a figure or fact, the more chance it's wrong. Also, have we considered the possibility that the same person from each school is not giving both figures? For example, who is actually putting the information on the school website each year vs. who is sending information to AACOM for their publications? I know at UNECOM, the figure of a 27 average MCAT was directly from the admissions director's mouth. True? I don't know. But I would tend to believe something I hear in person from an individual in charge more than a publication where I don't know who gave the information to the publisher and who has possibly changed it/edited it/put it in wrong.

Just a thought.

Let me see. AACOM handles osteopathic med schools applications via AACOMAS and thus has direct access to applicant MCAT scores. All they need is a list of the identities of accepted applicants for each school and they can rapidly calculate the averages for each school. Yet you trust word of mouth more than official AACOM data - interesting.
P.S. the data for the entering class of 2008 did apparently show an increase of the average to 26.12 so you have seen basically a 1 point jump from 2000-2008. I do not know if the 2008 data is a blip or sustainable - time will tell if this increase can hold in the face of rapid enrollment expansions as outlined in the table above. Hopefully AACOM will publish the 2009 data soon.

holyhekshler · Jan 1, 2010

J-Rad said:
Bernie Madoff is a Jew
Scott Roeder is a Christian
OJ Simpson is black
Capt. Amy Lynn Svoboda was a woman
DOs had much better outcomes than MDs during the 1918 influenza pandemic* (apparently, so did chiropractors in some areas http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1733660/chiropractic_care_during_1918_influenza.html?cat=37)

Is it really that interesting? Facts, devoid of context, can be extraordinarily inflammatory depending on how and where they are presented.
And we all endure "what-am-I-thinking 'teaching'". If you're not a proponent of the style, then don't use it, especially not here. It serves even less of a useful function here. When you choose, you are plenty articulate and can make a point. Just get to the friggin' point quicker.

*http://www.jaoa.org/cgi/content/full/108/9/484

👍

I also don't see the point of the OP's post if not to criticize DOs for their lower MCAT scores. People are waaay more than numbers and a lot of the MDs I've encountered have been arrogant ass***** to put it nicely. (And super dismissive of their patients needs! because they thought they knew everything, which of course is impossible!) DOs I've encountered have been 3 for 3 on being not just super intelligent and qualified but great doctors. I'm applying to both programs but when I picture what kind of doctor I want to be it is the DOs that I've shadowed that come to mind.

ShyRem · Jan 1, 2010

exPCM said:
Let me see. AACOM handles osteopathic med schools applications via AACOMAS and thus has direct access to applicant MCAT scores. All they need is a list of the identities of accepted applicants for each school and they can rapidly calculate the averages for each school. Yet you trust word of mouth more than official AACOM data - interesting.
P.S. the data for the entering class of 2008 did apparently show an increase of the average to 26.12 so you have seen basically a 1 point jump from 2000-2008. I do not know if the 2008 data is a blip or sustainable - time will tell if this increase can hold in the face of rapid enrollment expansions as outlined in the table above. Hopefully AACOM will publish the 2009 data soon.

If they did get their information this way, I would expect the figures to be far more current than 2006 or 2007. They should be entering class 2009. Back to you, sir. And, for the record, I wasn't even as close to as sarcastically nasty as you came across.

exPCM · Jan 1, 2010

ShyRem said:
If they did get their information this way, I would expect the figures to be far more current than 2006 or 2007. They should be entering class 2009. Back to you, sir. And, for the record, I wasn't even as close to as sarcastically nasty as you came across.

Again, the 2007 data came from AACOM's latest and greatest new data book (see the picture of it above).
Some complain to AACOM if you like.
Do you not realize yet that a lot of potentially negative official data (actual true pass rate data for each individual school for COMLEX/USMLE tests, MCAT scores for each individual school, GPAs for each individual school) is kept under a cloak of secrecy even though both osteopathic and allopathic school organizations have the data. The poorer performing members of AAMC and AACOM do not want the cloak removed so at best you can openly find in general only aggregate data which I have posted (and for which again it seems everyone generally posts numbers here for individual schools that are at and above the mean - again not does not pass the smell test mathematically). With the lack of officially released data individual schools have the ability to decide whether to spin things.
Look at the thread on who has the best "COMPLEX" (sic) scores where we have at least 3 schools that have the "highest pass rate".
And yes your responses to my posts I find almost always antagonistic and typically confrontational and not in the spirit of collegiality. I will respond to such posts in a similar fashion.

Laryngophed · Jan 1, 2010

exPCM, I have a question for you, if you don't mind. What is the endgame for you? Are you trying to improve osteopathic medical education? Are you trying to steer students to (unlikely, given your posting history) or away from (more likely) osteopathic medical schools? I'm just curious what your goal is with posts like these.

For the record, I think its an interesting post with potentially useful information but I think your approach leaves something to be desired.

JaggerPlate · Jan 1, 2010

J-Rad said:
Ex, I have nor problem with you, as an attending, posting here (I posted as an MS, resident, and now as fellow). Nor do I have a problem with constructive and articulate critiques of the profession; there are many on the DO boards that offer that. My problem is that, like many in medicine, you play too much "what am I thinking". You drop the OP and say...waiting...waiting...waiting...oh, MS argued with date of data-argue point, repeat, repeat, repeat [still waiting], repeat, repeat...waiting for some interpretation for the meaning of the data...waiting...and...Now! It wasn't until the above post that you offered any meaningful interpretation of that data, correct or not. You know you're posting in a pre-med forum so the likelihood that a major proportion of the readers is going to need help in seeing the underlying meaning. And for the proportion of readers who have relevant knowledge/experience when you come in and just drop a nugget like that without saying anything other than "Discuss" (think Mike Meyers) while also leaving no reason to believe that you give half a rat's ***** about the DO community/profession then you're going to come off like a troll. I've read enough of your posts, elsewhere, to sort of believe that you're not a troll but the "what am I thinking" $h** doesn't work any better on SDN than it does in real life (despite how many doctors are in love with it). So if you have something to say, say it. If you think the above point is important, then it should have been stated at the beginning of all of this and saved a little bit of the pissing-go-round (yeah, I know some back and forth on the point still would have been there, but the integrity of your intentions would be less in question). If you seek to educate, don't inspire confusion. Even I was wondering if you were trying to broadly state that all DO schools are inadequate because they have lower MCAT scores (which I don't believe is true).

You really are rad!

JaggerPlate · Jan 1, 2010

"3.5/28"

just one · Jan 1, 2010

I have read/been involved in several of threads involving exPCM, and all I have to say is this; I hope you convey your facts and opinions to your patients in a better manner than you do on SDN. I believe you have a perspective that could benefit the readers on SDN greatly, yet because of the manner of your posts most premeds will miss out on the opportunity to benefit from your knowledge. Delivery is key to communications and you sir suck at it.

As a nontraditional that was involved in a managerial/leadership role, you treat the premeds on this forum as if they are beneath you. I have seen this style used many times and suspect that during residency it will pop up again. Yet this is not the place for it. Just because you have the attending title does not demand respect here. Respect here is given to those that earn it by lending a helping hand. You have stated in other postings that you just want the truth out about the profession. Yet on here, all I get out of your posts is an anonymous poster ranting about various things to people that have no say in the process.

Osteopathic Schools Ranked by MCAT

Membership Revoked

I need more coffee.

Membership Revoked

Supratentorial problems

Endocringe

Full Member

Full Member

Supratentorial problems

Full Member

Supratentorial problems

Full Member

Full Member

The Redder, the better.

Supratentorial problems

Full Member

Full Member

Full Member

Full Member

Supratentorial problems

Attending

Full Member

I need more coffee.

123165

Full Member

Full Member

Full Member

Membership Revoked

Membership Revoked

Membership Revoked

Full Member

Full Member

Full Member

Membership Revoked

Membership Revoked

Full Member

123165

Membership Revoked

Membership Revoked

Full Member

Full Member

I need more coffee.

Full Member

Membership Revoked

Full Member

I need more coffee.

Membership Revoked

Supratentorial problems

Full Member

Full Member

Full Member

Similar threads