Vet School Student Debt out of control?

Wow. It is a priority to lock in a fixed interest rate on student loans because they do accrue interest while we are in school and not making payments. This was a big problem in the 80s and 90s when interest rates were climbing...alot of students had no clue what rates they were being charged. I know of someone whose student loan doubled, as well in the 90s after graduating from a master's program, simply due to interest accruals.

So, is this avoidable? How?

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Don't do a residency. That's what got her in trouble. I don't think residency's count as education, so any education loans you have can't be deferred to the end of your residency: you have to pay on them during the residency. She couldn't do that, so kept getting hit with penalties.

It's either that or she got 'normal' loans and not education loans. It doesn't make sense to me that a residency, especially for an MD, wouldn't count as education. So since she had normal loans, vs education loans, they weren't deferred and she was paying the whole time? I don't know, the article doesn't really say.



Oh and yes student debt is ridiculous. We're basically entering (vet) school on the gamble that there'll be jobs when we get out, 4 years (or 8 in case of human medicine) down the road. Luckily there's vet shortages as it is, so we'll likely be able to find a job right out. Might have to move or take a job we don't want (large instead of small, meat inspection instead of practice, etc) but we'll probably have a job, some where.

Unfortunately, for the most part, the last couple of graduating classes (from all professions) lost that bet. The old people who are supposed to retire, aren't because they need the money (and got ****ed over in their own ways), so there's no new jobs for the younger folks.

"Don't live like a doctor while your a student, or you'll end up having to live like a student when your a doctor."

Minimize debt during school. Avoid private loans with adjustable rates.

You can't get by avoiding private loans, you can get by by avoiding private loans with adjustable rates. Get private loans with fixed rates.

Ok, so would residency and specialization be the same thing? Does anyone know if you can defer student loans during specialization? Seriously, this is scary for me to think about.

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Specialization requires a residency to my knowledge, so yes they're the same thing. As to whether it can be used to defer, I'd like to know that myself.

HopefulAg said:

It's either that or she got 'normal' loans and not education loans. It doesn't make sense to me that a residency, especially for an MD, wouldn't count as education. So since she had normal loans, vs education loans, they weren't deferred and she was paying the whole time? I don't know, the article doesn't really say.

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I think this has to be it, because I was told by a vet school admissions official that you don't have to pay towards your loans while doing internships and residencies, but it's recommended that you at least pay the interest because that will get added to your loan amount when you go from student to intern and then from intern to resident.
They do count as education and thus you should be able to defer payments on them.

So you pay interest automatically when you defer a loan, be it a gov't or private loan?

twelvetigers said:

So you pay interest automatically when you defer a loan, be it a gov't or private loan?

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From my understanding of it, yes. One of the Stafford loans (can't remember if it's the subsidized or unsubsidized) collects interest but the government pays it for you while you're in school. For all of the others, your loans collect interest and then when you go from student to working the interest gets added to your loan and you get charged interest on the unpaid interest.

HopefulAg said:

You can't get by avoiding private loans, you can get by by avoiding private loans with adjustable rates. Get private loans with fixed rates.

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How do you figure? I'm currently paying the most expensive OOS tuition of any school in the country and could get federal loans to cover all 4 years of it if I needed to.

$40,500 a year in stafford loans + Grad Plus loans up to Cost of Attendance. Its not that complicated.

Tco87 said:

They do count as education and thus you should be able to defer payments on them.

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They don't count as education in the technical sense(that the government would continue paying on your subsidized loans). But you are able to defer payment on them if you need to. My personal opinion would be to do income based repayment while an intern/resident.

twelvetigers said:

So you pay interest automatically when you defer a loan, be it a gov't or private loan?

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If you defer a loan the interest will be accumulated and capitalized at whatever the stated interval is. While your a student you will normally be deferring your loans since you will have little or no income.

Federal Subsidized stafford loans (up to $8500 a year) are the the ones the government will pay the interest on while your a student.

For most federally guaranteed loans, you can use forebearance (no payments but interest still accrues) but not deferment (no payments, interest doesn't accrue) during a residency. The exception is if you do a graduate program (usually MS or PhD) during the residency because in that case you're a full time student.

But you need to get the details for your loan to know for sure.

As for the other point, yes student debt is out of control in veterinary medicine. It's generally recommended that you don't borrow more than your first year's salary and your payments don't exceed 10% of pay. On average, vet students are twice that. And debt is increasing about 5 times as fast as salaries.

While it's good to minimize extra costs as much as you can during school, in most cases there's no way you can save enough to make up for the tuition increases.

Students really need to look at tuition and debt. I see threads on here where someone is trying to decide between an instate school with much lower tuition or an out of state school with higher tuition. And that's crazy ... take the in state school.

Blagh. I have a 3 year residency in my future, if things go as planned. Thankfully, I also have pretty cheap IS tuition (hopefully) and a husband that makes some income to help.

How do you figure? I'm currently paying the most expensive OOS tuition of any school in the country and could get federal loans to cover all 4 years of it if I needed to.

$40,500 a year in stafford loans + Grad Plus loans up to Cost of Attendance. Its not that complicated.

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Right but that stafford loan isn't subsidized (except some $8000 or so) and it's all through a private lender. The government itself didn't give you that money, Wells Fargo or some other bank did and that's who you'll be repaying.

HopefulAg said:

Right but that stafford loan isn't subsidized (except some $8000 or so) and it's all through a private lender. The government itself didn't give you that money, Wells Fargo or some other bank did and that's who you'll be repaying.

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Actually many schools offer Federal Direct Loans where it isnt through a private lender. Ohio state does(and it actually gets you a better interest reate on Grad plus loans 7.9% versus 8.5%).

Otherwise you get a Federal Family Education Loans which is through a private lender but is federally backed(giving you all the benefits of a federal loan). This is VERY different than a private educational loan. Your repaying the bank, but based on the terms the government sets out. And if you want to consolidate that loan into a federal direct consolidated loan you can. Or if you want to take advantage of the alternative federal repayment options you can.

Details are here http://studentaid.ed.gov/PORTALSWebApp/students/english/studentloans.jsp

twelvetigers said:

Blagh. I have a 3 year residency in my future, if things go as planned.

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That's often a good thing. The salary of many veterinary specialists is substantially higher than general practitioners (depending on the specialty).

When you look at the debt:salary imbalance, you can't do much about debt since that's based mostly on tuition. So your only hope is a higher salary. The problem there is that an associate in most general practices simply can't produce enough revenue to justify much higher salaries (generally 20-22% of production). But many specialists have much higher production.

The other solution is own a practice. Of course that means even more debt.

The student debt is scary as hell and now that I'm waiting to hear from a school it is closer than it was before. I'm lucky that my undergrad was pretty inexpensive and I worked/split it with my parents. I can't fathom paying $260K back and am seriously considering moving and getting residency in a state with a school then taking my chances on reapplying rather than go to a school that will dig a hole that deep for me by the time I graduate at 25/26 years old. At the same time, I can't wait to get started and WANT to begin my working life at 25/26, not enter school again (nothing wrong, just my preference).

Bah! Why can't education be free like other parts of the world?!

I'm scared sh*tless of the debt that I'm accruing, but it sounds like Dr. Bisutti handled this really poorly. For starters... don't default on your student loans. You always have access to the terms of your loan. If she was too lazy to look them up herself, she probably could've just called her loan company and asked.

Given that both my student loan debt and my salary will probably both be about half as much as hers, I guess Dr. Bisutti and I are pretty much in the same boat. It's going to be hard... I won't be living extravagantly, that's for sure.

"Maybe half of it was my fault because I didn't look at the fine print," Dr. Bisutti says.

"Dr. Bisutti says she loves her work, but regrets taking out so many student loans. She admits that she made mistakes in missing payments, deferring her loans and not being completely thorough with some of the paperwork"

"After completing her fellowship in 2007, Dr. Bisutti juggled other debts, including her credit-card balance, and was having trouble making her $1,000-a-month student-loan payments. That year, she defaulted on both her federal and private loans."



I really don't feel that bad for her. She obviously had no clue about any of her loans or the consequences of defaulting on them. Wouldn't want her as my doctor if she can't plan ahead and figure that out.

Anyway, yes debt is out of control-average vet student debt at graduation went from approximately $107,000 in 2007 to $127,000 in 2009. Crazy.
Go to your cheapest/in-state school if possible
Take out federal loans with fixed interest rates if possible
Think long and hard about going to the more expensive for everyone schools like Western, or the Carribean schools where the loan situation is even more messed up.
Consider if it is really necessary to pay $7000 for a two week summer trip to Africa to work with darting lions or whatever it may be to get experience.
Live frugally, apply for scholarships, grants, fellowships, etc.

annie800 said:

Factoring all of this together, I too hope to specialize, but I still don't even know how it all works. Would love some insight. Do all vet schools offer specialization or is that something you apply to after vet school and maybe through another program?

Ok, so let's say, after vet school, if you specialize and/or do residency/internship, will you make less income initially and then build on that? Can anyone throw in some average numbers so I can compare them to loans?

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this figures are a few years old, but they're kind of reassuring... they certainly look a lot better than the $60,000 starting salary I constantly see...

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=526047

http://www.valuemd.com/veterinarian_earnings.php

Oh boy, #4 FTW!

annie800 said:

Where is education free? I suppose if someone is a dual citizen, this could work to their advantage, but I also assume that free education depends on years of residency in that country. Even then, maybe college is free, but masters/doctoral programs?

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A lot of countries in Europe have free education, but of course you have to be a citizen of that country. I actually have a few European friends who studied in the US but went back to their home country to get their MD/DVM for free!

david594 said:

"Don't live like a doctor while your a student, or you'll end up having to live like a student when your a doctor."

Minimize debt during school. Avoid private loans with adjustable rates.

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A young (ie traditional) vet student pulled in next to me today in a new mustang convertable. Don't I wish. Hope mommy and daddy are footing the bills.

HopefulAg said:

Specialization requires a residency to my knowledge, so yes they're the same thing. As to whether it can be used to defer, I'd like to know that myself.

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Not all specializations require formal residency. Behaviors, avian, reptile, dog/cat do not. I think therio doesn't either (based on CaninePro's plan). Behavior and therio do have residency options though.

I thought the average income of a vet in a practice was like 85k... is that not right? Does it mean for one that owns the practice?

sumstorm said:

Not all specializations require formal residency. Behaviors, avian, reptile, dog/cat do not. I think therio doesn't either (based on CaninePro's plan). Behavior and therio do have residency options though.

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Yeah, we also don't see any of those in the highest paid salary lists.

What number of vet student graduates actually go on to specialize though? This isn't human medicine where everyone gets into a speciality. Isn't it something like <10% actually go on to specialize after vet school?

david594 said:

Yeah, we also don't see any of those in the highest paid salary lists.

What number of vet student graduates actually go on to specialize though? This isn't human medicine where everyone gets into a speciality. Isn't it something like <10% actually go on to specialize after vet school?

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38% according to the AVMA, likely for precisely this reason

david594 said:

Yeah, we also don't see any of those in the highest paid salary lists.

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I believe number 10, "Veterinary Practice," refers to those who are diplomates of the American Board of Veterinary Practitioners (ABVP), of which you can be certified as a specialist in canine/feline, avian, reptiles/amphibians, beef cattle, dairy practice, swine practice, etc. So, it does count...although it takes quite a bit of time to accrue all of the case reports, etc that you need for your credentials and I believe you have to have been practicing a certain number of years. See http://www.abvp.com/certification.htm for more details.

goose1 said:

38% according to the AVMA, likely for precisely this reason

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Can you link us to what your citing? Or is that from the first year salary data?

If thats the case, most of them are doing internships, and not all of them will go on to complete residencies and specialize.

38% seems incredibly high to me as well....are you talking veterinarians who actually complete a residency? Or just informally specialize? I'd like to see a source for that


Anyway for those interested, here is specialty information
http://www.avma.org/reference/marketstats/vetspec.asp


and 2007 median earnings for AVMA members
http://www.avma.org/reference/marketstats/usvets.asp


Remember-although specialties like surgery pay alot, they are also very very competitive. For small animal you may have to do a general rotating internship, then a surgery internship, and then finally get a 3 year surgery residency. So 5 years after vet school graduation before you are making that money.

Its got to be this data from "Advanced Study Programs" http://www.avma.org/reference/marketstats/1yremploy.asp

Crazy Hippos said:

Bah! Why can't education be free like other parts of the world?!

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It's never free. It's just a matter of who pays for it -- taxpayers or students.

In the US, one of the main reasons tuition is going up so much is that the states are cutting the amount of funding to higher education, including veterinary schools. Since the money has to come from somewhere, the schools are increasing tuition.

annie800 said:

Do all vet schools offer specialization or is that something you apply to after vet school and maybe through another program?

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Yes, all schools offer residencies although not all schools have all the different types of residencies. Also some private specialty practices offer residency training as well.

Basically to specialize, after getting your DVM/VMD you do a 1-year rotating internship and then a residency in the particular specialty (usually 3 years). During these 4 years of training you are paid, although poorly. Most internships and residencies are competitive to obtain because there are more applicants than positions (this varies depending on the specialty). Then you submit credentials, which in some cases includes publications and case reports, and pass one or more exams.

Bill59 said:

Then you submit credentials, which in some cases includes publications and case reports, and pass one or more exams.

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And the exam pass rate for some of the specialties is about 25-40%. (Remember, the people taking these exams have all survived very grueling residency programs and had their credentials accepted by the specialty College to even sit for the exam.)

IMHO, specializing for the money is a really poor decision. Money can be a big consideration, but unless you are truly passionate about that area, it's going to be almost impossible for you to complete the residency and pass the exam. Unless you are super-genius-prodigy person.

alliecat44 said:

unless you are truly passionate about that area, it's going to be almost impossible for you to complete the residency and pass the exam. Unless you are super-genius-prodigy person.

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Just curious...what happens if you don't pass it the first time? Are you allowed to retake the exam?

racccjlm said:

Just curious...what happens if you don't pass it the first time? Are you allowed to retake the exam?

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Yes, you are. I'm not sure, but the different specialty Colleges probably have different rules about how many times you can take the exam or if you have to re-submit your credentials each time or how long it is until your credentials "expire," etc. I'd check the specialty College's webpage for details--but yes, in general, you can re-take the exam. The exams are generally only offered once a year, however.

And in terms of studying--for most people in academic residencies, their school gives then 2-3 months of time off just to study (and these folks are studying 60-80 hours a week for those 2-3 months). To have to do it all over again...aiiieee....!

Federal loans can be put into forbearance. Private loans will be subject to the terms of the loan.

You can do an internship/residency at any school. It won't matter where you got your degree from.

david594 said:

Can you link us to what your citing? Or is that from the first year salary data?

If thats the case, most of them are doing internships, and not all of them will go on to complete residencies and specialize.

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My apologies for making such an umbrella statement. I was leaving my office and should've clarified. I'm sure that number is not at all just those who pursue a formal residency. It's those who go on to "further education" or however they word it (again, not at my office but i'll try and look it up tomorrow).
My point was that it seems a lot of people view it worth while to try and separate themselves from the people who go straight into a practice for example after receiving a DVM. Presumably to increase their salaly and increase the income/debt ratio in the end.

Just to clear things up, I am a second year vet students and have always been told that if you do an internship or residency after graduating vet school, your student loans can be deferred then. Internships and residencies are considered further education so you are allowed to defer. However, many people recommend just paying the interest you accrue during your internship/residency.

I believe that average vet school debt is 100000-150000 but it depends on where you go, average living costs and various other factors.

david594 said:

You can do an internship/residency at any school. It won't matter where you got your degree from.

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However, generally you must either Match or be accepted into the residency program, so your experience, GPA, ECs, school program, internship, etc may all play in at that point. I don't fully understand the match system.

twelvetigers said:

Oh boy, #4 FTW!

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#1 FTW! Yay nutrition!

alliecat44 said:

Yes, you are. I'm not sure, but the different specialty Colleges probably have different rules about how many times you can take the exam or if you have to re-submit your credentials each time or how long it is until your credentials "expire," etc. I'd check the specialty College's webpage for details--but yes, in general, you can re-take the exam. The exams are generally only offered once a year, however.

And in terms of studying--for most people in academic residencies, their school gives then 2-3 months of time off just to study (and these folks are studying 60-80 hours a week for those 2-3 months). To have to do it all over again...aiiieee....!

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YUCK!!! Definitely not something I'm looking forward to! Thanks for the info.

Electrophile said:

#1 FTW! Yay nutrition!

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I thought you needed a PhD to specialize in nutrition? I volunteered with a resident who is working on a PhD in equine nutrition after her DVM...

I wonder how much non-vet animal nutritionists make?

Whoa....Nutrition and Surgery huh?

Radiology sounds more fun though...but that explains why there's so many people wanting to specialize in Surgery.