Why URM's should NOT worry at the Supreme Courts' decision.

Dude you don't have to call me out on a whole new thread. I was trying to give that person decent advice based on everything I've read about the upcoming decision.

Originally posted by pathdr2b
Second, I thought you made a good point for discussion.

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I was wondering too how the whole process would be affected. I figure that schools would tend to err on the side of caution and it would become quite difficult for minority students immediately after the decision. Then slowly things would swing back the other direction, but not so far as to return to where they were before.

This is a tough issue. It's difficult to weigh the benefits of increasing diversity with the cost of race-biased admissions. A part of me is insanely curious as to what would happen if AA is struck down and the number of URM docs falls. Perhaps there might be a social resurgence among URM communities in the importance that is placed on education when they re-realize that they are barely represented at all in the top professions. A self-motiviated community-wide desire might be what is really needed for URM's to increase their representation in professional careers rather than AA, which may have reduced competitiveness among URM students, a trait that is very much needed in the med school admissions process. Anyway, that's my $0.02.

Wolferman,

That is a fantastic post. Great points.

I've heard that the Supreme Court is going to be extremely specific this time around - because Bakke vs. CA was interpreted differently by different states, that is why the problem has come up again, this time in Michigan. Granted, networking will still go on, but that can only get you so far in the eyes of an Adcom. If they can no longer give "extra points" (UMich's word not mine) to someone because of their skin color, then it will be tough for them to justify letting in a URM with a 25 over someone else with a 30.

Everyone should keep in mind the context of the lawsuit filed against Michigan. The reason that the Supreme Court even took the case was to settle the constitutionally legality of setting quotas for minority representation in its classes. So, even if they DO rule in favor of the students, I highly doubt that the URM programs that are already in place (i.e. recruitment and other practices that don't have quotas) will be affected too much. The real issue, IMO, with this lawsuit is the way in which Michigan handled its enrolement of minorities, not the fact that they do recruit and try to admit a large number of minorities.

In addition, if I know the Supreme Court (and I do because I have taken quite a few law courses), the justices will hand down a ruling that is very limited in scope, so not as to pass judgement on a wide gamut of issues. I expect a ruling that the action of the University of Michigan was illegal.


Any other takes on the issue?

You URMs need to quit whining about stuff. Get good grades and solid EC's and you'll get in. You shouldn't even need some pity program to help you.

I think UMich is the tip of the iceberg (fortunately or not). MIT has started a chain reaction of sorts with their own cancelling of a minority program. See below


The MIT decision came after the U.S. Department of Education's Office of Civil Rights began investigating the school's seven−week summer programs ? one designed for high school students and the other for incoming first−years. Both programs were limited to African American, Hispanic and Native American students.

The investigation led MIT, which had earlier defended the legality of the programs, to reevaluate its stance, said Robert P. Redwine, dean for undergraduate education and professor of physics at MIT.

"We concluded, somewhat reluctantly, that they could not legally be maintained as racially exclusive programs," Redwine said.

http://www.browndailyherald.com/stories.asp?storyID=477
Here is the link for the story

Isn't it telling that instead of just dropping these programs to just "disadvantaged", they decide to close them up instead?

If I can't stack my deck with URMs, I don't want to help out disadvantaged students either?? Kind of reminds me of the kid that would cry when he was losing at something and take his toy and run. "It's my toy. If you won't let me win, I'll just go home and cry."

The point is that URM's have significantly lower scores and still get into schools where the average (excluding them) is alot higher. It is bringing down the standards to let someone in with lower achievements simply b/c of their skin color/background. It's bull****.

Klinzou,

Would you still be against economically disadvantaged students being given some assistance? Or would you just tell them, "You poor kids need to quit whining about stuff. Get good grades and solid EC's and you'll get in. You shouldn't even need some pity program to help you."

You'd have to have a set definition for economically challenged.

I'd rather have the government help people based on their economic status than by the color of their skin. At least it makes sense.

Originally posted by klinzou
You URMs need to quit whining about stuff. Get good grades and solid EC's and you'll get in. You shouldn't even need some pity program to help you.

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Hell yeah! Preach it brother!

Originally posted by pathdr2b
You know its funny to see people make these arguements. Any other time , you'd be screaming that there's a lot more to an applicant than MCAT scores. There are a million posts on SDN proclaiming how much MCAT scores aren't a complete reflection of an applicant EXCEPT when it involves URM's. So, I guess MCATs only reflect an applicant if the applicant happens to be a minority. Yep, definitely logical to me !!!!!!!

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The obvious point, which you are undoubtingly missing, is that SOME URMs get in BECAUSE THEY ARE URMs regardless of MCAT scores, extracurrics, etc! Not all, but some do and this is what should be stopped.

Look at this situation more critically and be more mindful! If a bunch of white guys were getting in with low MCAT scores and little extracurrics, URMs would be having a hay day protesting and lobbying. It's easy to make arguments when you twist and skew information to your liking.

Originally posted by wolferman
Klinzou,

Would you still be against economically disadvantaged students being given some assistance? Or would you just tell them, "You poor kids need to quit whining about stuff. Get good grades and solid EC's and you'll get in. You shouldn't even need some pity program to help you."

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lol.... I think that if DISADVANTAGED students demonstrate promising potential then there should be some thing to help them out, but not so that it gives them an advantage over regular students. A program that puts them on equal playing ground(being an URM is not a disadvantage, as much as they would like to make you think it is...)

Pathdr,

Please don't label me a racist.

All it takes is a quick look on mdapplicants, or SDN to realize that if you are black with a 25 and 3.0, you have a MUCH BETTER chance of getting in to a medical school than if you are white with a 25 and 3.0. That my friends is racism. Pure and simple. Why does the black guy deserve it more than the white guy? Cause he grew up in the ghetto? Who cares! How does that affect his ability to learn redox reactions? How does the fact that I grew up with a 3 car garage help me learn redox reactions. IT DOESN'T!

None of us earned the color of our skin or our ethnicity, we were just born with it. Some of us are black, some of us are white. You being black doesn't make you any more qualified or deserving for medical school, and the same goes for me being white. We both take the MCATs and the prereqs, may the best man win.

I know plenty of URMs with 33 and higher on the MCAT - they don't whine, they don't ask for handouts, and they all think AA is for chumps. They EARNED their acceptances. Down with racism.

PathDr,

Lets say you are black and I'm white (I don't know if thats true, but lets just say that it is)

If we both apply to med school with the same GPAs, same ECs, same MCATs and same LORs, you will have a MUCH BETTER chance of being accepted than I will, because you are black.
That is RACISM, pure and simple.

If we both apply to a country club, with the same references, financial backgrounds, and social skills, then I will have a MUCH BETTER chance of being given a membership than you will, because I am white. That is RACISM, pure and simple, and its just as bad as the med school process.

wolferman - I really doubt what you suggest could happen will happen.
For the turn around you talk about to occur - the URM community needs to be able to mobilize as a united front, recognize there is a problem and take community wide steps to address these issue. I think the URM community - and in particular - the Black community faces a few obstacles in that respect.
1) There are few national or even state Black representational bodies with the organization to coordinate such a movement. I realize that you're probably suggesting a grass roots type deal - but that really isnt going to happen given the fragmented nature of the african-american community in large.
2) Lack of leadership - It seems to me too many of the so-called black leaders dont really a) represent the true ideals/dreams/idealogy of the black people b) command respect in the eyes of the majority (and are not taken seriously) because they are viewed as hucksters and shysters. I mean look at Al Sharpton, J. James, Ferrakhan. These arent people who I want representing me as an educated black man. If our leaders cannot cross the socioeconomic spectrum (i.e. the fail to represent, identify or at least not pi$$ off successful black people) they will continue to be ineffective in leading african-americans out of the shadows.
Clearly this is easier said than done. Still though, if given the fragmented african-american community and the lack of strong leadership, the next best thing to motivate the people are strong role models. This type of grass roots approach rely's on the influence of an individual to affect his community. I.e. put more black professionals in black communities... and you know what? we've got AA. AA aint perfect but in light of the much bigger problems its probably the best way to go now.

Originally posted by wolferman
Perhaps there might be a social resurgence among URM communities in the importance that is placed on education when they re-realize that they are barely represented at all in the top professions. A self-motiviated community-wide desire might be what is really needed for URM's to increase their representation in professional careers rather than AA, which may have reduced competitiveness among URM students, a trait that is very much needed in the med school admissions process. Anyway, that's my $0.02.

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sigh.... every time an AA related post comes out and the rabid anti-AA contingent (still awaiting Ryo... ) I feel the need to speak up. I dont know why. I'm like that stupid kid that keeps getting knocked down in the play ground and just refuses to stay down . It always seems to me too though that this is a conversation between the minority lefts and minority rights while the majority middles arent paying attention. So this post is dedicated to all those who won't actually read this thread
Now here goes:
1) AA particularly in med schools is about representation not reparation. The same reason a cab wont stop for a black man in NYC at night is the same reason a black person doesnt want to see a white doctor in the waning hours of his life. The minority population continues to grow (sorry for all the sex I for one am cutting down on the number of baby mama's I have ). The lack of representational medical service continues to fall. Some may claim that AA is racist to the individual. Fine. I wont even bother arguing that fact (even though it isnt true) - I will argue that any injustices created by the artifice of AA are subservient to the greater good served by having a medical community that represents and serves properly the larger community. Yes. Society has a right to decent health care. No. White doctors cant fill the shoes of Black doctors in the eyes of Black patients.
2) 2% of med students are Black. Stop whinning. Thats even less than most state sales taxes Seriously though. If even 10% of the seats in medical school were taken by african americans under AA then maybe you could whine and complain - but WTF 2%? Jeez. I could have a party in my back yard and fit all the black med students in there
3) some interesting stats:
white males as composing only 33% of the population but occupying 80% of tenured professor positions, 92% of Forbes Fortune 400 positions, 80% of the U.S. House of Representatives, and 90% of the U.S. Senate.
however you rationalize it - something strange is happening here. the function of society (under the social contract theory) is to support the well being of the people. However you cut the cake - that well being isnt being best served when the majority of the most influential political, economic and educational positions are filled by a minority.
for more reading... even though almost NO ONE will actually read it:
http://www.snma.org/mission2.html
http://www.aamc.org/diversity/focuson.htm
carry on folks. carry on.

First of all - I noticed a bit of a mistake in a previous post that might be slightly semantical but could use clearing up -
Michigan uses a point formula system for admission to Law School and the Undergraduate College. There are numerous variables that are correlated with given point values (i.e a GPA in a certain range, high school athletics, extracurriculurs, etc). One of those point categories is underrepresented minority applicant. In other words, there are no 'extra points' given to an underrepresented minority, they are just points that one particular applicant might receive and another wouldn't (but that applicant might receive legacy points or sat points, etc).
The formula is nice because it allows admission officers to combine numerous data sources into one ordinal test statistic.

I think this thread is mixing up two issues;

1. Do AA policies allow URM students higher probability of gaining acceptance to a specific school with a given set of statistics?

2. If AA policies do allow URM students a higher probability of gaining acceptance to a specific school, is that appropriate?

Those of you who are debating the impact of ethnicity on present day and future life quality are really talking about topic 1. Those of you who are citing the statistics regarding URM matriculants are talking about topic 2.

This debate is fairly fruitless but might go a little further if we keep these things seperate.

For instance, I feel that community representation and the ability to identify with a given patient population is very important for the future of medicine. There are a number of ways to accomplish this - one is by favoring state residents and another is by recruiting URM students with the hope that those students will serve a particular patient population. This is part of the story - the other is that there is an argument that simply having variation and diversity on college campuses, in the work place, and in the field of medicine is an important component that must be actively sought out. Again, there are a number of ways to diversify a given population - one way is by recruiting URM. In both of these situations it would also be possible to increase diversity through other strategies, such as an economic indicator. That brings up the question of how much two potential indicators co-vary (i.e. if you actively recruit URM students, are you also, on average, actively recruiting lower economic status students?) Originally, the answer to this question was probably yes, however, this could probably be revisited. I know the Institute for Social Policy at U Chicago and the Social Science Institute at Michigan has examined this data but I am not familiar with the interpretation or analysis.

The point is that even if you resolve that URM gain access with, on average, lower test statistics, the real question becomes, "so what?"

blah blah blah


YADA YADA YADA

Originally posted by TexasGuy41
Pathdr,

Please don't label me a racist.

All it takes is a quick look on mdapplicants, or SDN to realize that if you are black with a 25 and 3.0, you have a MUCH BETTER chance of getting in to a medical school than if you are white with a 25 and 3.0. That my friends is racism. Pure and simple. Why does the black guy deserve it more than the white guy? Cause he grew up in the ghetto? Who cares! How does that affect his ability to learn redox reactions? How does the fact that I grew up with a 3 car garage help me learn redox reactions. IT DOESN'T!

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Spoken like a true Texan!

You obviously don't know anyone that grew up in a ghetto. It affects every TRULY important aspect of your life. i.e. will I eat today, will I have heat when I come home, will the electricity be turned off again, will I get shot today? Would you say those everyday concerns afford one a lot of time to worry about re-dox reactions?

I'm a URM. I got a 33 on the MCAT. I still believe in AA. I really can't imagine moving toward race equality without it. I also grew up in a ghetto. I had a lot of AA help along the way to get me that above-the-average "white" score on the MCAT.

If the problems have to with being raised in the ghetto and poverty, shouldn't AA practices be based on the economic conditions the applicant's family faced rather than race. just a thought.

i honestly don't care one way or the other, the way I see it, it is your fault if you have borderline scores that allow you to be possibly bumped by a URM.

2% are black. OK. The percentage of those that got in with grades. Great, I hope to work with you someday. For those that got in through AA. Go suck a dick.

You say the main reason for AA is representation, not reparation. Get some black people to get high grades and apply to medical school.

I also dont know why you are talking about blacks only, they aren't the only minorities that get their special treats.

In medicine, I think it really comes down to one point. Who is more likely to treat the underserved population? I honestly believe it's a person from that population.

Yes, so if minorities want to be treated by their own kind, raise some the right way and send em off to med school

Also, from the link:
Ranked by Fall 1994 UCLA Admission Rate
(Higher rates associated with affirmative action preferences)
Group Ad Rate Index
Am Ind 78.3% 1.59
Chicano 60.9% 1.24
All Latino 58.4% 1.18
African Am 57.7% 1.17
Unknown 55.8% 1.13
Asian Am 53.4% 1.08
Total US 52.2% 1.06
Latino 52.1% 1.06
Total 51.1% 1.04
All As/PI 51.0% 1.03
Caucasian 49.3% 1.00
Other 47.7% -1.03
Pac Islander 36.4% -1.36
Filipino 34.4% -1.43<- Discrimination
Internationa 25.7% -1.92


What's the difference between Chicano and Latino??

Policeman: Freeze!

Bank Robber: Hey, look, there's a rapist! Go arrest him instead, policeman.

Policeman: No.

Bank Robber: It?s funny that you'll arrest a bank robber, but not a rapist.

Argument: Immoral A is justified by B?s immorality or the, ?It?s not fair! Billy did it too!? argument.

The elimination of AA will matter for current med school applicants. Do you think lower standards based on race end at medical school admissions?
*cough* match *cough*

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0312/hentoff.php

In all the fierce debates about affirmative action through the years, Asian Americans have seldom been heard from. They are certainly a minority, making up less than 4 percent of the population, but receive no extra points from admissions committees at the University of Michigan or any other college or university I know of. I was drawn to get the Asian American Legal Foundation brief by a column in the February 11 issue of New York University's student newspaper, the Washington Square News.

The writer, William Phung, noted that affirmative action actively discriminates against Asian Americans. He refers briefly, in a telling example, to a fact that I found in a more complete form in a February 2 New York Times story by Jacques Steinberg:

In 1999, the University of Michigan law school "accepted only one of the 61 Asian Americans, or 2 percent, who were ranked in the middle range of the applicant pool, as defined by their grades and test scores, according to court filings. The admissions rate for whites with similar grades and scores was 3 percent. But among black applicants with similar transcripts, 22 out of 27, or 81 percent, were offered admission."

Yet, in the March 2 New York Times, commentator Brent Staples declares?as the Times editorials also insistently maintain?that "the University of Michigan program in no way resembles a quota system." (The 10 to 12 percent requirement at the law school is not a quota?)

This fervent denial of how affirmative action in college admissions actually works is echoed in the February 7 Chronicle of Higher Education by William Bowen (president emeritus of Princeton University) and Neil Rudenstine (former president of Harvard University). "No one contends," they say, "that white students are being excluded by any college or university today simply because they are white." As usual, no one mentions whether Asian Americans are excluded.

William Phung emphasizes that Asian American students are stereotyped as "inherently intelligent," and therefore are thought not to require preferential treatment. And also, he adds, the common perception is that "blacks and Hispanics are more likely to come from disadvantaged backgrounds and substandard education" than Asian Americans, who "obviously come from well-off families."

But, says Phung, "in 2001, the U.S. Census Bureau reported that a staggering 88 percent of Asian students have at least one immigrant parent, compared to 65 percent for Hispanics." Moreover, many Asian Americans "speak English as a second language, and have to overcome significant cultural gaps." Phung is the child of two immigrants from Asia.

As for the "well-off families," reporters covering labor unions and their attempts to organize Asian American workers against highly resistant employers can bear witness that many Asian children grow up in families headed by the working poor.

Phung's column ends: "If we are to keep affirmative action, the policy needs to be reworked to recognize the fact that not all Asians are rich geniuses. . . . Simply dropping affirmative action helps just as much, if not more, than retooling it."

Often overlooked by many of the participants in this debate is that there are millions of kids from low-income families in dead-end schools?black, Hispanic, white, and Asian American?who never even think of applying to college.

In July 1998, in a Public Broadcasting Service dialogue on race moderated by President Clinton, Richard Rodriguez, a Mexican American journalist, was asked by Clinton whether, if Rodriguez were president of a university, he would want a "racially diverse" faculty and student body.

Clinton clearly didn't get the answer he expected. "I think," said Rodriguez, "you would start at the bottom of the social ladder. You would start at the first grade rather than at a graduate school to decide which ones of us get into law school. You would make sure America has a system of education that saved children in the first grade, because we lose [them] there." All children thus lost should be rescued.

To be continued.

Originally posted by pathdr2b
Thanks to the "haves' being in the white house, educational programs and budgets for ALL public schools have been drastically cut. You think think we should start with first grade? Would you support a tax increase to better all schools which according to the theory of Rodriguez, will decrease or eliminate the need for AA? I say put more money into the public school system or else sit your as$ down !!!

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Great points!!! I definetly agree with pathdr2b and darkchild.

Originally posted by danwsu I had a prof at my school that pretty much gave everyone an "A" for physics. But the students really knew their stuff. They always did extremely well on standerdised test. But the administration told him to "knock it off" or he would be terminated. He saved them the trouble and quit.

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People tend to forget that racial discrimination is prevalent. I am constantly reminded everyday by society's lower expectation of URM (especially me being African-American). I remembered back to 12th grade (3 years ago, oh my I am getting old) when my physic's professor suspected me of cheating on the final because my final score was higher then most of my classmates (only 2 blacks including myself out of 20 Caucasians) . Well, thats positive reinforcement for my hard work. There are a lot of employers like my high school physic teacher that would not hire african americans because of their skin color. That is where AA comes into play. There are a lot of elemetary, middle, and high school teachers that expect little from URM students. Well, I would write more but I have to go to work. lata

Listen, if you want to get into med school, then go out and get a high mcat score and great grades. PathDr - more power to you, it seems that you've busted your butt and I respect the heck out of you for it.


For the rest of you, go out and get a 33 MCAT, then you'll have earned it. Quit whining and asking for handouts. If you have a college degree, you don't need any handouts. You can't afford MCAT prep? GO OUT AND GET A JOB and earn some money and pay for it that way. All the whities out there like me aren't exactly donald trump.


Also, for all you URMs that think other URMs will prefer you as their physician - well thats fine. But if GOD FORBID A DYING WHITE MAN SAID "You know what doc, I'd really actually prefer to have a white doctor instead." THERE WOULD BE AN UPROAR.

And another thing, what if I started a thread that said "Rallying my Fellow Whites!" and talked about us white people banding together and helping each other out, THERE WOULD BE AN UPROAR and people would probably accuse me of being in the KKK.

And for the record, I'm not from Texas, and I work at Howard, and most of my buddies feel the same way I do.

PathDr -

First, I think thats horrible what happened to you and your mom. I think racism is awful, and I know that URMs go through an absolute TON of it in their lives. Not for a second do I think I know what its like to be in your shoes, because I don't.

I'm only talking about med school admissions - and I truly believe there is reverse discrim against non URMs. If we both have the same stats, same ECs, etc., the URM has a better chance. And I think that is unfair.

And no, I don't want to be a URM, I was just trying to make a point of what its like to be on the outside. Yes, I do work at Howard, and no, they haven't accepted me to their med school. My stats are way higher than their average matriculant, I have 7 years of inner-city volunteer activity, but I am white, you do the math. I only work there because I'm personally interested in epidemiology for underserved populations - specifically in regards to refugees and other displaced peoples, and HUH sees a ton of this. So yes, it personally bugs me when I see URMs with much lower stats than me get into Howard, especially when they haven't ever worked in an underfunded clinic, or seen the horrible diseases that homeless people are forced to deal with. Now if that URM has a lower MCAT than me, lower GPA, and less ECs....why is that they get into Howard? Cause they are black and I'm not. End of story. Its a shame.

TexasGuy41,

I know exactly how you feel. It really isn't fair. It's a ridiculous system, actually. I have a couple of friends who filed lawsuits against medical schools because of this.

Originally posted by TexasGuy41
PathDr -

And no, I don't want to be a URM, I was just trying to make a point of what its like to be on the outside. Yes, I do work at Howard, and no, they haven't accepted me to their med school. My stats are way higher than their average matriculant, I have 7 years of inner-city volunteer activity, but I am white, you do the math. I only work there because I'm personally interested in epidemiology for underserved populations - specifically in regards to refugees and other displaced peoples, and HUH sees a ton of this. So yes, it personally bugs me when I see URMs with much lower stats than me get into Howard, especially when they haven't ever worked in an underfunded clinic, or seen the horrible diseases that homeless people are forced to deal with. Now if that URM has a lower MCAT than me, lower GPA, and less ECs....why is that they get into Howard? Cause they are black and I'm not. End of story. Its a shame.

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Putting your views on URMs aside...

I find it astonishing that you work with underserved populations and write some of these things. How could you possibly believe that individuals that grow-up in ghettos experience the same educational environment and have the same chances of excelling academically as those that have cushy suburban lives?

Maybe your interviews at Howard realized you haven't learned anything from the experiences you've had. Maybe the AdCom thought you really were not capable of empathizes or relating to a community other than your own.