"Let Asians compete freely with white students."

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BME103

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http://modelminority.com/article304.html

By Jacques Steinberg
The New York Times
February 2, 2003

At public universities in California and Texas, the end of affirmative action in admissions has benefited one minority: Asian-Americans.

And if the Supreme Court decides later this year to limit or eliminate race-conscious admissions at the University of Michigan, Asian-Americans stand to gain far more than any other group, at least in proportion to their numbers in the general population. Their experience in the admissions process provides yet another prism through which to view the affirmative action debate. As things stand now, a relatively low percentage of Asian-American students are admitted to many top private and public institutions, nearly all of which practice affirmative action, compared with the high numbers of the arguably qualified among them.

But if the Supreme Court phases out race-conscious admissions, the number of Asian-American students can be expected to soar, at the expense of other groups, even whites.

The statistics in California and Texas give ammunition to critics of affirmative action who say that some applicants, primarily white or Asian-American, are being rejected in favor of blacks and Hispanics who may not be as accomplished, at least as measured by standardized-test scores and grade-point averages.

But the same statistics also provide ammunition to those who support race-conscious admissions and who argue that unless colleges give special attention to black and Hispanic applicants, whites and Asians could lay claim to all but a handful of the spots on some campuses.

To gain a sense of how the composition of a student body can shift, consider the University of Texas at Austin.

After a federal court in 1996 barred the University of Texas from practicing affirmative action, the state began offering admission to all high school students ranked in the top 10 percent of their classes. Given the racial and economic segregation in the state's high schools, the assumption was that blacks and Hispanics would be given a fairer chance to enroll, without having to compete directly with whites who lived in richer districts.

But as it turned out, the main beneficiaries were Asian-Americans. The percentage of freshmen entering the Austin campus who were Asian-American rose to 18 percent last fall, compared with 14 percent in the fall of 1995. Thus, almost one in five freshmen at the university's flagship school is Asian, in a state where only about three of 100 residents are.

As the admission rate of Asian students rose, to 71 percent from 68 percent over that period, the admission rate of whites fell, by one percentage point to 66 percent. So did that of blacks, to 43 percent from 59 percent.

Hispanics were admitted at a rate of 56 percent in 2002, down from 72 percent in 1995. They make up about a third of the state population but less than a fifth of the freshman class at Austin.

Asked to explain the dynamic, Bruce Walker, the director of admissions at Austin, said, "Obviously they are the top students in their schools."

"Any state that goes to a percent plan and has a significant number of Asians will discover that Asians will be the ones who will benefit most," he added.

In California, where Asians make up 11 percent of the general population, the gains were also striking after the state ended traditional affirmative action in the late 1990's and adopted a system similar to that of Texas.

At Berkeley, the percentage of the freshman class that was Asian-American rose 6 percentage points, to 45 percent, in 2001. Over the same period, the percentage of the class that was black fell by three percentage points, to 4 percent; the percentage that was white dropped by one percentage point, to 29 percent; and the percentage that was Hispanic fell by six percentage points, to 11 percent.

Contrast that with the experience of the University of Michigan Law School, which practices race-conscious admissions in a typical way, with admissions officers considering applicants' test scores and grades, as well as their backgrounds. Along with the undergraduate program, which uses a more formulaic approach that awards extra points to a black or Hispanic applicant, the law school is a defendant in the lawsuits being heard by the Supreme Court.

When, for example, it assembled its class for the fall of 1999, the law school accepted only one of the 61 Asian-Americans, or 2 percent, who were ranked in the middle range of the applicant pool, as defined by their grades and test scores, according to court filings. The admission rate for whites with similar grades and scores was 3 percent.

But among black applicants with similar transcripts, 22 out of 27, or 81 percent, were offered admission.

Michigan, like other selective colleges, defends the lift given to black applicants, as well as to Hispanics, for two main reasons: to level the playing field for what it calls underrepresented minorities, who might not have the educational advantages of many whites and Asians, and to enhance the educational experience of all students by immersing them in a diverse environment.

Though supportive of affirmative action for black and Hispanic applicants in particular, Evelyn Hu-DeHart, a professor of history and ethnic studies at Brown, said she took offense at the perception that there might be a threshold for how many Asians on a campus was too many.

"I'll tell you what is discriminatory in the case of Texas," said Ms. Hu-DeHart, who emigrated from China in the 1960's. "They don't say whites are overrepresented. They're pitting Asian-Americans against blacks and Latinos by saying Asian-Americans are taking your place."

She added: "Let Asians compete freely with white students."

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Is the AA topic dead yet...NO? well lets string it up and beat it some more. For the love of God let it go people.:mad:
 
The best way to solve porblems is by not talking about them.
 
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personally, I do not have a problem with having many Asians in med school and law school; if they are qualified and genuinely have a desire to help people using the best of their talents more power to them. I don't see Asians as taking my place or anyone else's place in med school. I currently am a med student, but I do not feel that it was my right to be here simply because I am white or female. And, I agree that more URM's need to be brought into medicine by giving them a better education at an earlier age. Otherwise, how can you say you are truly giving all URM's a fair shot? Most of the people in med school are not poor, didn't grow up in the ghetto, and this tends to hold true regardless of race. It is not b/c of Asians or b/c of the lack of Affirmative Action that more URM's are not brought into med school. It is b/c many URM's don't even make it to college b/c of poverty and an atrocious educational system. Of course, this is to some degree true for all other races, but no question that poverty tends to affect Black and Hispanic children disproportionately. (please no "um, duh" remarks in response to this; I just didn't want people to misunderstand and write "oh yeah, well look at all the poor Asian and white kids out there"..)
 
"Of course, this is to some degree true for all other races,"

I don't know why you would say "to some degree."

"but no question that poverty tends to affect Black and Hispanic children disproportionately."

Since adcoms admit on a person to person basis, "proportion" is quite moot.

The fact of the matter is, for ever black or hispanic child in poverty, there are about two white. Not only that, but a much larger percent of those whites that live in poverty have parents that ACTUALLY WORK. Further, those that grow up in similar communities, almost always rural america, don't have access to decent schooling at all. You talk about urban schools being bad? The school I went to didn't have a physics class, a calculus class, or a even a computer programming-type class (they did have "typing.")

Blacks that live in urban poverty areas, the majority of those in the population actually in poverty, have much greater opportunity for jobs and education. It puzzles me why these points are never made.
 
Originally posted by Ernham

Blacks that live in urban poverty areas, the majority of those in the population actually in poverty, have much greater opportunity for jobs and education. It puzzles me why these points are never made.

I see ur point...
 
http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0312/hentoff.php

But, says Phung, "in 2001, the U.S. Census Bureau reported that a staggering 88 percent of Asian students have at least one immigrant parent, compared to 65 percent for Hispanics." Moreover, many Asian Americans "speak English as a second language, and have to overcome significant cultural gaps." Phung is the child of two immigrants from Asia.

As for the "well-off families," reporters covering labor unions and their attempts to organize Asian American workers against highly resistant employers can bear witness that many Asian children grow up in families headed by the working poor.

Phung's column ends: "If we are to keep affirmative action, the policy needs to be reworked to recognize the fact that not all Asians are rich geniuses. . . . Simply dropping affirmative action helps just as much, if not more, than retooling it."

Often overlooked by many of the participants in this debate is that there are millions of kids from low-income families in dead-end schools?black, Hispanic, white, and Asian American?who never even think of applying to college.
 
I remember when my family first moved to the US. We lived in a cracked up $200/mo apartment in rural Mississippi, slept on mattresses on the ground, and had foam (a level above inflatable?) furniture. How is my background any less disadvantaged than any other ethnic group?

Yes, I'm asian, and reverse discrimination is just another obstacle I'll have to face to succeed in America.

No, I'm not trying to add fire to the AA debate. You are dealt a certain hand of cards, so you just have to deal with it. Arguing about it until you're blue in the face isn't going to change the fact that AA exists. So just deal with it. As an Asian in CA, I face it every time I think about my prospects for med school. The way I see it, its a similar but opposite struggle compared to the the URM from inner city baltimore. We both have to struggle to get where we want.
 
Originally posted by exmike
I remember when my family first moved to the US. We lived in a cracked up $200/mo apartment in rural Mississippi, slept on mattresses on the ground, and had foam (a level above inflatable?) furniture. How is my background any less disadvantaged than any other ethnic group?

Yes, I'm asian, and reverse discrimination is just another obstacle I'll have to face to succeed in America.

No, I'm not trying to add fire to the AA debate. You are dealt a certain hand of cards, so you just have to deal with it. Arguing about it until you're blue in the face isn't going to change the fact that AA exists. So just deal with it. As an Asian in CA, I face it every time I think about my prospects for med school. The way I see it, its a similar but opposite struggle compared to the the URM from inner city baltimore. We both have to struggle to get where we want.

Its a way of thinking. Im pretty sure your parents didn't come from a generation where they felt that it was totally impossible for them to succeed. it really does go all the way back to slavery. its been carried down from generation to generation that no matter how hard you work, theres no way in hell that the white man will let you be successful. Its not just a struggle its an uncontrolable mindset. If a kid hears that he'll never be anything everyday of his life by parents who themselves have a feeling of total hopelessness and defeat. the kids too will began to take on the same mindset of their parents. but, should you come from a culture where your past generations wern't subject to constant opression, a situation where You've grown up in an enviroment where your parents have worked hard and you were able to see them reap the benefits of their hard work, you yourself will take on the belief that anything can be achieved with hard work and determination. and you then will tell that to your kids.and so on and so on.Its so easy to say, why cant someone just work hard or why cant a person just quit being lazy.Its like when a fat person says they cant quit eating or a smoker says its they cant quit smoking. they've put themselves in a state of mind where those things are totally unattainable. Its a cycle that has to begin somewhere. if that means accepting people for reasons other than the norm, then so be it.
 
im asian.

if that makes it slightly harder for me to get into med school, then i tell ya what -- i could care less, i know im still getting in.

i dont know what a previous poster was referring to when he said "FEAR", but thats exactly what this is and what AA has become to some of you people. its not the end of the world and its not an insidious plot to keep you from your goals.

and good lord, god help you if one time in your life you suffer a setback and someone else gets thrown to the front of the line. oh my, what ever shall i do now?
 
No one is aruging that you can not voluntary give up your civil rights. You can not, however, make other people give up their civil rights unless you have a compelling state interest. And, no, social engineering/diversity does not qualify. Think more compelling....civil war.

Anyway, Asians are racist. They are anti-diversity. 2% of the population taking up 15% of the slots? WTF?! And doing well academically....don't they know the SAT was written BY white people FOR white people? The only way minorities should get ahead is through victimhood! How dare Asians try to get ahead through meritocracy!!!
 
Please. Paragraphs are your friend.

"Its a way of thinking. Im pretty sure your parents didn't come from a generation where they felt that it was totally impossible for them to succeed."

And unless you are over 50, nor did yours.

" it really does go all the way back to slavery. its been carried down from generation to generation that no matter how hard you work, theres no way in hell that the white man will let you be successful."

Whine, cry, pout. I'm sure you'll soon be stomping your feet as I destroy your illogic.

" Its not just a struggle its an uncontrolable mindset. If a kid hears that he'll never be anything everyday of his life by parents who themselves have a feeling of total hopelessness and defeat."

A good read for you, you poor, disadvantage, psychologically "oppressed" fellow.

"the kids too will began to take on the same mindset of their parents. but, should you come from a culture where your past generations wern't subject to constant opression, a situation where You've grown up in an enviroment where your parents have worked hard and you were able to see them reap the benefits of their hard work,"

Ahh. But "the Robinhood effect essay" sitting right on my desk here empatically demonstrates that blacks today make more than whites when they have the same education and job, oh, but here's the big caveat: IQ.

Personally, I'm sick of hearing excuses out of blacks. It's really not all their fault. I blame academia, the news(TV in general), ignorance, and their own leaders. They've been lieing to them their whole lives.
 
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Yeah. Boo frenchmen. Actually, wait. I take that back. France was awesome to me this year... I'm now a goat cheese fan. (Don't ask... :cool:)

Maybe I've thought about this too little or too much, I'm not sure anymore but it seems to me that of everything that goes into this debate, two things are of prime importance:

1) The goal of having people judged by their merit/achievement

2) The problem of opportunity, and how set factors outside of individual control reduce or enhance possibilities for achievement.

So far, does anyone disagree with me? I guess there might be those who want to say that things like AA are moral payback for previous societal repression of a specific group... but I don't really buy that discussion overmuch. Right. Well, accepting the above, clearly number 2 is where the big problem comes in (I'm assuming that the MCAT, GPA, essays, LORs, and interviews, taken as a whole, do the best possible way of evaluating candidate merit given practical constraints- if anyone else has a full system they'd like to propose, fine, but I'm working with 1 as accepted.)

My question then is, are racial categories the best way of defining social groups such that discrepancies in number 2 can be counterbalanced in a practical way? My gut reaction, and one that I still have to develop, is that racial categories are too simplistic. I believe that more specific divisions could be possible and yet still practical. But I don't know how that might work.

I believe that the problem with AA debates is that there is a lot of clutter: some people reject 1 or that our methods of measuring merit are in any way useful. Other people reject the need to consider two outright. I believe that one of the major misunderstandings is that everyone who is questioning how AA works today using broad racial categories is seen as attacking position 2. I think that if the debate was bracketed off a little better, it would be much more useful and less frustrating.

All, just what I think.
 
Originally posted by Ernham
[BThe fact of the matter is, for ever black or hispanic child in poverty, there are about two white. Not only that, but a much larger percent of those whites that live in poverty have parents that ACTUALLY WORK. Further, those that grow up in similar communities, almost always rural america, don't have access to decent schooling at all. You talk about urban schools being bad? The school I went to didn't have a physics class, a calculus class, or a even a computer programming-type class (they did have "typing.")

Blacks that live in urban poverty areas, the majority of those in the population actually in poverty, have much greater opportunity for jobs and education. It puzzles me why these points are never made. [/B]


I usually try not to post in these inflammatory threads, but what the hell? You've got to be joking. No calculus or physics? Cry me a river. Be glad that you had to deal with that instead of the threat of violence and gangs. Having worked with a lot of kids from bad areas, I can assure you that the presence of physics or computer programming wouldn't have done diddlysquat to improve their education. It's a question of basic emotional and psychological security. They don't have it, and so accomplishing the basic learning is much more difficult.

Also, as for the plentiful jobs, that's just a load of crap. Even if it were true, working multiple jobs at minimum wage(these are the plentiful jobs you speak of) doesn't make much of a dent in poverty. And, it doesn't leave a tremendous amount of time for education.

Finally, for those of you who can say, "when my parents immigrated" : realize that their ability to immigrate in the face of poverty or hardship already puts them into a population that's more likely to succeed--the whole notion of "learned helplessness" is very real and tangible. Your parents, as immigrants, were fortunate to buy into the American Dream. If they felt that they would not have a chance, why would they move here? For some populations, especially those population who have been historically oppressed , that glimmer of hope never existed. I applaud your folks or you for coming to this country in the face of such adversity; however, don't count their success as the norm. It's not, and that's not always due to a lack of hard work, education and dedication. For some reason, we are unwilling to admit that so much of our lives is due to lucky breaks. I guess we perceive something honorable or worthy by being able to list our myriad struggles, and something shameful about just being lucky. Huh.
 
"I usually try not to post in these inflammatory threads, but what the hell?"

With a grand total of 4 posts? Sounds like you should drop "inflammatory" from that sentence and it would be more appropriate.

"You've got to be joking. No calculus or physics? Cry me a river. Be glad that you had to deal with that instead of the threat of violence and gangs. "

Heh. Who makes up these gangs? who is reponsible for the violence?? Huh? I know. By the way, you are pretty assumptive. I spent a decent chunk of my childhood in the general vicinity of Castle Hill (Bronx.) I'm curious to where you, oh assumptive one, grew up, before I write off your entire post as chaff.


"Also, as for the plentiful jobs, that's just a load of crap. Even if it were true, working multiple jobs at minimum wage(these are the plentiful jobs you speak of) doesn't make much of a dent in poverty. And, it doesn't leave a tremendous amount of time for education."

Actually, I didn't say anything about plentiful jobs. I said that there is much more opportunity in an urban environment.
 
Originally posted by Ernham
"Heh. Who makes up these gangs? who is reponsible for the violence?? Huh? I know. By the way, you are pretty assumptive. I spent a decent chunk of my childhood in the general vicinity of Castle Hill (Bronx.) I'm curious to where you, oh assumptive one, grew up, before I write off your entire post as chaff.


Feel free to write off my post. But, to answer your question, the gang members I dealt with were mostly Vietnamese. They were from an area of Tacoma, WA known as Hilltop. Thank you, though, for completely missing the point of the post.
 
"Feel free to write off my post."

Yeah, that's what I thought. Much like college professors, it's always the one with the biggest mouth that has had the least real life experience with whatever it is he/she is blathering about.
 
Originally posted by Ernham
"Feel free to write off my post."

Yeah, that's what I thought. Much like college professors, it's always the one with the biggest mouth that has had the least real life experience with whatever it is he/she is blathering about.

Interesting. That was exactly my perception of you. How 'bout that?
 
"Interesting. That was exactly my perception of you. How 'bout that?"

That's not surprising. Many of your "ilk" have trouble forming their own ideas. Much easier just to borrow someone else's, right?
 
I think alot of people are missing the point in this thread. If the argument is that most URM's that enter med school have "less qualifications" than the white or asian counterpart, then that might be true. I think it is tragic and very unfair for the many white males that have not been accepted into school because a "less deserving" URM has taken their spot. However, many of you fail to recognize the true reason for the acceptance practices in med school.
Medicine is a wierd practice where the patient must identify with the doctor in order to establish an effective rapport. There have been many published reports of URM patients seeking URM doctors, while the opposite is not true.
The facts are that the life expectancy for males are as follows: 66 for black, 74 for white, 82 for asian american (for women:74, 80, 86 respectively; according to my Behavioral Science BRS).
The reason for admission program policies is supply and demand, not aa or something like that. Even if aa is changed, the admission programs will always be "skewed" toward accepting urm's because there is a huge demand for minority doctors. At least, until life expectancies are equalized. Asian Americans are the least "in need" according to the life expectancy argument, which explains why it is harder for them to get into med school. While african american doctors are in great need due to the incredible discrepancy in life expectancies.
I have seen some posts state that because of the admission policies, doctors or the field will be less competent. That might be one of the silliest things I have read on this board. I believe that most of these arguments are by premeds who have never been in med school. Once those premeds enter med school and accept the challenges it possesses, they will understand how stupid that argument is. Everyone (all things being equal), white or black or asian..., that graduates from medical school is competent. Mcats and GPA's don't mean anything in med school.
 
Originally posted by NYGirl12
Not All

Hey NYGirl12, I read Ryo-Ohki's entire post. I think that he was just being sarcastic and funny. He goes on to say things like:

"And doing well academically....don't they know the SAT was written BY white people FOR white people? The only way minorities should get ahead is through victimhood! How dare Asians try to get ahead through meritocracy!!!"

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Yeah, I'll bet society itself is so dumb that it actually thinks this way!

I'm 100% Asian myself and don't consider myself racist :)
 
Hmm, the OPs link was to a website called "Model Minority: A Guide to Asian American Empowerment"....

I'm not Asian, but why would anyone want to be characterized by themselves or anyone else as the "model" minority? That title doesn't really strike me as particularly empowering...
 
"Medicine is a weird practice where the patient must identify with the doctor in order to establish an effective rapport."

I've been in and out of the hospital a number of times in my life... I've never "established a rapport." It's always been more of a "McDonald's drive-through" situation.

"There have been many published reports of URM patients seeking URM doctors, while the opposite is not true."

It appears, then, that we need to "de-racify" URMs. Your data suggests that URMs are inherently racist and we would be better of fixing that "issue," rather than compromise healthcare for everyone.

"The facts are that the life expectancy for males are as follows: 66 for black, 74 for white, 82 for asian american (for women:74, 80, 86 respectively; according to my Behavioral Science BRS)."

Shorter lifespans for blacks has been document outside of the context you have placed it in. The fact of the matter is that blacks have a greater mortality rate for both genetic and behavioral reasons, not because of lack of black doctors.

"The reason for admission program policies is supply and demand, not aa or something like that. Even if aa is changed, the admission programs will always be "skewed" toward accepting urm's because there is a huge demand for minority doctors."

It won't be skewed when med schools are getting sued for millions every year.

"At least, until life expectancies are equalized. Asian Americans are the least "in need" according to the life expectancy argument,"

You've made no life expectancy "argument" of note. All you've said is blacks die earlier than whites and whites before asians.

"which explains why it is harder for them to get into med school. While african american doctors are in great need due to the incredible discrepancy in life expectancies."

Again, elucidate. You make no sense.

"I have seen some posts state that because of the admission policies, doctors or the field will be less competent. That might be one of the silliest things I have read on this board. I believe that most of these arguments are by premeds who have never been in med school. Once those premeds enter med school and accept the challenges it possesses, they will understand how stupid that argument is. Everyone (all things being equal), white or black or asian..., that graduates from medical school is competent. Mcats and GPA's don't mean anything in med school."

Right. So we should just randomly pick people off the street for med school acceptance. *boggle*. You know, in America we pride ourselves, or we used to, on that those that really tried their best and worked hard would be rewarded on some level. What you are suggesting is in contradiction with this(highly un-american.)

Here's a hypothetical situation for you:

You are very sick and are likely going to die. You have a couple months to live and one extremely difficult surgery that has a very high chance of failure is the only recourse you have. If you were to choose your doctor for the operation would you chose(same alma maters and experience):

Doctor A: 3.92 GPA, 41 MCAT.
Doctor B: 3.21 GPA, 24 MCAT.

That's all you have to go on. Please tell me you would just flip a coin; I need a good laugh.
 
Originally posted by Ernham
"
c
Here's a hypothetical situation for you:

You are very sick and are likely going to die. You have a couple months to live and one extremely difficult surgery that has a very high chance of failure is the only recourse you have. If you were to chose your doctor for the operation would you chose(same alma maters and experience):

Doctor A: 3.92 GPA, 41 MCAT.
Doctor B: 3.21 GPA, 24 MCAT.


Here's a hypo for you:

There are only two barbers in a town. You really need a haircut.

Barber A: He has a bad haircut himself, but his shop is packed, and well decorated.

Barber B: Has a nice haircut himself, but his shop is empty, sloppy and dirty.

Where do you go??

~Lubdubb
 
Originally posted by Ernham
"Interesting. That was exactly my perception of you. How 'bout that?"

That's not surprising. Many of your "ilk" have trouble forming their own ideas. Much easier just to burrow someone else's, right?

Huh. Not only am I curious as to what you think my ilk to be, I'm curious as to what idea I "burrowed" from someone else?

I almost forgot your hypothetical. Given that(realistically or not) you align yourself more closely with Dr. A, I'd have to say that I'd just as soon find myself in a back alley with Dr. Nick swinging a machete over me than have a clown like yourself with a scalpel. Cheers.
 
"I've been in and out of the hospital a number of times in my life... I've never "established a rapport." It's always been more of a "McDonald's drive-through" situation."'

Establishing a rapport is the first thing you learn how to do in med school, but thats not my point. Hospital situations are different because you are "assigned" an attending. In the family practice setting, one chooses to see a doctor. An established, positive rapport is necessary for proper medical management. For example, an undiagnosed case of diabetes will shorten life span considerably compared to a diagnose case. If one does not see the doctor, because a negative rapport has been set, then the patient ultimately suffers. It has been established that minority patients identify with minority doctors easier, thus establishing a positive rapport more quickly; ultimately benefitting the patient.

"It appears, then, that we need to "de-racify" URMs. Your data suggests that URMs are inherently racist and we would be better of fixing that "issue," rather than compromise healthcare for everyone."

I dont believe it is "racist" per se, but it does not matter what it is. The reality of the situation exists. In a perfect society, we would be "de-racified", but we are far from a perfect society. Should we actually address the needs present or ignore the facts allowing individuals to suffer because of an idealistic utopian society that we may acheive one day?

"Shorter lifespans for blacks has been document outside of the context you have placed it in. The fact of the matter is that blacks have a greater mortality rate for both genetic and behavioral reasons, not because of lack of black doctors."


Shorter lifespans are positively linked to healthcare, don't let anyone tell you differently. Genetics and behavioral functions do have ramifications, especially when behavior involves not seeing a doctor regularly. The idea exists that if there are more black doctors available, then the level of healthcare black patients receive will be increased. Not the level healthcare when the black patient is in the hospital for a life threatening condition, but the level of healthcare in regards to the prevention of the life threatening condition. Your point about genetics and behavior having a greater impact is completely naive. The fact remains that life span is a congruent measure of healthcare in this country.

"It won't be skewed when med schools are getting sued for millions every year. "

Med schools will never be sued, that's like sueing a college for a an accountant it produced. I hope you were kidding about this.

" You've made no life expectancy "argument" of note. All you've said is blacks die earlier than whites and whites before asians. "

I thought the argument spoke for itself. Let me outline it for you, life expectancy is an objective measure of healthcare (not so much the exact numbers, but the trends). That is why in third world countries, the life expectancy of everyone is very low except for the very rich who enjoy the benefits healthcare. The current thinking is that in order to raise the life expectancy of african americans, more african american doctors must be trained. So if life expectancy is a measure of healthcare, then the level of healthcare obtainable for african americans will be increased by training more african american doctors.

"Right. So we should just randomly pick people off the street for med school acceptance. *boggle*. You know, in America we pride ourselves, or we used to, on that those that really tried their best and worked hard would be rewarded on some level. What you are suggesting is in contradiction with this(highly un-american.)"

Your argument is worthless. All canidates accepted to med school have qualifications that entitle them to be there. For all those that are accepted, there are many others that deserve to be there also. That is why it is tragic for the white male that is not accepted due to race.

In your hypothetical situation, your naivete is exposed. So i have a 41 mcat, does that mean I hold the pencil more steady when I am filling out the bubbles??? Knowledge in surgery is secondary to skill as a surgeon. Your skill is more directly related to your technique with a scalpel and not if you know how to do a physics problem on the mcat. I believe the argument you are trying to make is whether I would rather see a doctor with a higher mcat score than one that has a lesser mcat. As a premed, I would have said that I would rather see the doctor with a higher mcat. As a med, I would say that I would rather see the doctor that I am more comfortable with. In other words, for the most part, doctors know the same things (the ones in the same specialties i mean), the difference between doctors has more to do with non-academia type qualities than a general fund of knowledge.

Here's a hypothetical situation for you to elucidate my confusing point:

You are very sick and likely going to die.
Doctor A: 3.92 gpa, 41 mcat
Doctor B: 3.21 gpa, 24 mcat

Doctor A is so arrogant and sure of him or herself that eliciting a proper history is second to lab values.
Doctor B takes the time to talk to you and elicit a proper history finding out that you have been eating paint chips in your off time.

My point of this stupid story is that medicine has alot less to do with your mcat, and alot more to do with proper technique and rapport.
 
I think this is one of the most important debates in American society. I agree that the problems relate more to socioeconomics than race. Take a black kid who went to private school all his life, and what have you really done to better the situation of "the black population," except for the fact that this student may be more inclined to work with that particular minority.

As for the "learned helplessness" argument, I'm afraid it just doesn't hold much water. I come from a religio/ethnic minority (Jews) who have been oppressed and persecuted for the last 2000 years. This has not served as an impediment to Jews succeeding in any environment. You can refer to some kind of "Jewish conspiracy," but that's just as ignorant and racist as trying to say that Blacks have every opportunity to succeed.

The problem in this country is class and poverty. Someone in the ghetto who does not have access to good schooling or enrichment programs will have a more difficult time succeeding, and this should be taken into consideration when he or she expresses an interest in pursuing a medical career, especially as it may benefit people in his or her community.

So, as a white Jewish kid from CA, I probably don't come from the best demographic, but the fact is that I can and will be a doctor. And I don't begrudge anyone the schools that I did or did not get into. AA has a place, but it must be done in a rational fashion that truly benefits people in need, rather than turning into a debate about which racial minority has suffered more, and who deserves more help. That serves only to divide us further.
 
It appears to me that we should be more concerned with the legality of AA policies. Whether AA policies are beneficial to healthcare or morally righteous is moot if they are prohibited by law to be practiced in schools that receive federal aid, which seems to be the majority of medical schools.
 
Something to think about:

In the united states, Korean americans are doing well for themselves economically and academically speaking.

In Japan, where there is discrimination against Koreans, they are not doing well academically nor economically relative to the overall population.


~Lubdubb
 
Originally posted by la2bos2ny
I think this is one of the most important debates in American society. I agree that the problems relate more to socioeconomics than race. Take a black kid who went to private school all his life, and what have you really done to better the situation of "the black population," except for the fact that this student may be more inclined to work with that particular minority.

I agree with you that the problem appears to be more socioeconomic than race. However, if that were true why don't medical schools use a race-blind system that examines the disadvantaged history of an individual instead?

The argument that patients tend to see doctors of their own race is a bit too generalized for me. From personal experience, I've found in some instances that its not really the race that matters but the nationality. A signification portion of the minority population in America are not proficient in english, so they naturally seek out doctors who can speak their language.
 
Originally posted by LUBDUBB
Something to think about:

In the united states, Korean americans are doing well for themselves economically and academically speaking.

In Japan, where there is discrimination against Koreans, they are not doing well academically nor economically relative to the overall population.

Arguably, poorer blue-collar Koreans go to Japan, while better-educated/skilled white-collar Koreans can get into the US.

I do agree that discrimination may play some role though.
 
Originally posted by ac808
Life expectancy for males are as follows: 66 for black, 74 for white, 82 for asian american (for women:74, 80, 86 respectively; according to my Behavioral Science BRS)

If health care for blacks is so poor, how do you account for the fact that black women have a life expectancy greater than or equal to that of white men? Does that mean that black women recieve better care than white men? If so white men should be up in arms, preferential treatment based on the color of skin and a person's sex, that is racist and sexist!!!!

The problem isn't a lack of black doctor it is a matter of lifestyle.
 
There are two answers to your argument. The genetics of females and protective nature of estrogen accounts for a longer life span because of a decrease in the amount of atherosclerosis. Heart disease is the biggest killer over a certain age (50 i believe), and the difference is accounted for by genetics of males and females.

Another answer is that you prove my point right by pointing out that women (black or white) live longer. This is directly correlated to the fact that women visit the doctor more often than men in general. This correlates to a longer life span. However, the trends in races/nationalities exist for both sexes.
 
"There are two answers to your argument. The genetics of females and protective nature of estrogen accounts for a longer life span because of a decrease in the amount of atherosclerosis. Heart disease is the biggest killer over a certain age (50 i believe), and the difference is accounted for by genetics of males and females."

There is no proof estrogen has any protective benefits against heart disease that I have read. However, testosterone, which God has cursed blacks with far too much off, is definitely linked to heart disease.

"Another answer is that you prove my point right by pointing out that women (black or white) live longer. This is directly correlated to the fact that women visit the doctor more often than men in general. This correlates to a longer life span. However, the trends in races/nationalities exist for both sexes."

So, umm, why do Asian men live longer than white men, especially since asians will have a hard time finding asian doctors despite them being over-represented for their % of the population.
 
Originally posted by macdown
If health care for blacks is so poor, how do you account for the fact that black women have a life expectancy greater than or equal to that of white men? Does that mean that black women recieve better care than white men? If so white men should be up in arms, preferential treatment based on the color of skin and a person's sex, that is racist and sexist!!!!

The problem isn't a lack of black doctor it is a matter of lifestyle.

Lifestyle huh? If it were only that simple. If you have taken even one public health class you'd know that socio-economic status is the number one determinant of heath and health status. You'd also know that gender is a universal confounder of supposedly causal relationships. It is completely improper for you to contrast black women with white men.
 
This is such a stupid argument. If you get in, you get in. If you dont, goddamn it you dont. all the bitchin' and moanin' and whining the black people took my spot. Get a goddamn phuckin life.You people just dont understand those people cant control the way they think. they're brought up that way. they're brought up to believe that all they can do is what their parents have done. All you people on here talking trash about how you dont buy it and all this other BS. you're the ones who were brought up the good way and have a mindset of I can do anything and I can achieve anything. Thats the only way you think. Its the only way you've been brought up to think. You're never gonna to get that because you dont want to. you people are idiots
 
Way to make a mature and reasoned argument. I may be an idiot, drkingdingaling, but you are awfully paternalistic. If these issues were as clear as you're making them out to be, they would have been resolved long ago.
 
Originally posted by drkingdingaling
This is such a stupid argument. If you get in, you get in. If you dont, goddamn it you dont. all the bitchin' and moanin' and whining the black people took my spot. Get a goddamn phuckin life.You people just dont understand those people cant control the way they think. they're brought up that way. they're brought up to believe that all they can do is what their parents have done. All you people on here talking trash about how you dont buy it and all this other BS. you're the ones who were brought up the good way and have a mindset of I can do anything and I can achieve anything. Thats the only way you think. Its the only way you've been brought up to think. You're never gonna to get that because you dont want to. you people are idiots

I hope you're not my doctor
 
Originally posted by la2bos2ny
Way to make a mature and reasoned argument. I may be an idiot, drkingdingaling, but you are awfully paternalistic. If these issues were as clear as you're making them out to be, they would have been resolved long ago.

really by who?
 
by the same people who are making an effort and discussing AA programs.
 
Originally posted by la2bos2ny
by the same people who are making an effort and discussing AA programs.

And how would they go about doing that
 
I wouldn't expect much scholarly intellect for someone named "king dingaling"...
 
thats whats wrong with the world now. who gives a phuck what you expect
 
That's my point exactly, drking. The issues are not very simple and the answers are not simple, much as you would like to reduce them to that level. If it were purely a matter of self-esteem, learned helplessness, whatever you want to call it, that would translate to clear, specific actions to remedy this situation. But so far we have found none. And you have made no case for your point, other than to say that you are right, that we are idiots, and that's the way it is.

I'm not saying I have the answer, or that you're entirely wrong, I'm merely saying that to call everyone here an idiot reflects some pretty simple-minded thinking.
 
Im not saying that those are all the reasons for what happens I never said that. In my opinion its just the root of everything else
 
then don't call people idiots.
 
That initial article was interesting because it kind of says Affirmative Action helps whites by keeping the number of asians below what it should be if they freely competed.
 
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