If you like/dislike AA, watch Dateline RIGHT NOW

3.7 I think. 25 ACT. Good ECs. Middle class.

I think a couple of URMs with much worse grades in her school got in.

Borderline acceptance/denial. Another sacrificial lamb to the god of Diversity.

Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki
Another sacrificial lamb to the god of Diversity.

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i wonder how we'll view all this 100 years from now.

Originally posted by carrigallen
i wonder how we'll view all this 100 years from now.

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I expect we'll all be dead....

Speak for yourself. I will never die.

How come it seems like you only post when its time to bash AA?

I might agree with you about AA, and I'm a URM. It just seems that you come on really strong Ryo-Ohki, and I think it makes a lot of people feel uncomfortable.

Do you think you are going to change anything? The Supreme Court will strike it down, and I'm sure you'll be happy. There's no need to alienate the board with your racist views.

I must admit I was a little disappointed by the show as I really didn't learn anything new or hear any new perspectives on this argument. That was in part due to the format of news television where each segment has to fit neatly between commercial breaks and we have to move on to something new after each break.

Maybe thats a good thing though - maybe it won't spawn any new threads (a guy can dream can't he...?)

You seem upset, my friend. I'm sorry that my candor about Affirmative Action has hurt your fragile feelings. Do you want a lollipop?

She thinks she got screwed? I had a 3.75 and a 34 ACT, along with numerous athletic accomplishments, activities, and the like. I got into Notre Dame and Northwestern. Michigan? As an in-state, middle class white male from the U.P.?

DENIED!

An Asian girl in my class got in with a 3.2 and a 25. She was involved in band and her family had more money than mine, so she was hardly a harship case. The counselor at my school was in utter disbelief, he wanted to make sure they got the right transcript or sent the right letter to me. I had already decided on Minnesota at that point, but I was still stunned.

The dateline report was broad, if not in-depth. However, they showed their slant when they interviewed the "success" of the URM class of 73 without mentioning the significant drop-out rates. They also tried to show the typical AA admit as slightly lower qualified but not significantly lower qualified (white #1 didn't get into MIT, but black #8 did). In short they tried to paint typical AA admit as the 33MCAT/3.4 dot you see here:
http://www.sandiego.edu/~e_cook/vault/medical/michigan/umich-med-97.html


Well, hopefully Justice Stevens will have one of his bouts with sanity. I wonder when the SC will rule.

Well....I'm still split on my position on AA, but what I found really disgusting in the midst of the whole dateline special is when the girl who's suing UM said that her dream of going into medicine died when she got the college rejection from UM because she "lost confidence." Seriously, if she gave up on it before she even went to an undergrad school--perhaps not Ann Arbor, but as the report said, she still enrolled at another UM school--and never picked up a gen chem or bio book, she has no right to whine and blame UM for killing her dream. She did that herself by not trying.

Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki
You seem upset, my friend. I'm sorry that my candor about Affirmative Action has hurt your fragile feelings. Do you want a lollipop?

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I am not hurt at all. I guess reiterating your POV over, and over again is something you like to do. I'm sure if you were to post other constructive things, not related to AA, then maybe I would not pay attention.

But whenever there's a thread even insinuating a mention of AA, there you are. It just gets old...

You certainly seemed focused on me for some odd reason. I'm touched that you care so much. Tell me, since you follow me around on every post, are you on the edge of your chair, rasp with anticipation waiting for me to post a reply?

Heh, my very own stalker.

Actually, my friend, it saddens me that you have so much passion on this issue.

As an African-American, who has a 3.9 GPA, 31Q MCAT, and earned his place in Med School, I think we need to get rid of AA just for that reason.

This issue has polarized our society enough, we need to heal these wounds. I'd hope you wouldn't hold a grudge against URMs who get into med school after AA ends...

Look at your posts, bro: Ryo-Ohki's love for AA talk

You don't have to be a stalker to know that you always appear when this issue is raised. I hope that one day, you can learn to accept URMs in this country, because that is what hurts when I read this. Knowing that many whites think I'm inferior as an applicant just because I'm black. That's why we need to get rid of AA. I think URMs will suffer, but I'd rather the doctors who do make it be respected, then not by their white peers.

I think my career will suffer in the long run if white professors/chief residents/attendings don't respect me. Even if I do end up at UCSF!

You notice that journalists who talk about AA NEVER mention the fact that Asians are hurt just as much, if not moreso by AA than whites?

they always put whiney white people on there yet they NEVER bother to interview strong asian applicants who were "offered up to the god of diversity as a sacrifice"

I propose to you that this is not an honest mistake, it is a deliberate effort to make this a white man vs minority debate instead of a white man/asian minority debate vs other minority debate which is what AA REALLY is.

There have been studies that have shown that asians are hurt more by AA than whites are, and one of the interviews on the NBC program (with one of the people sticking up for Michigans admissions policy) admitted as much without mentioning that it was in fact another minority group, Asians who were being hurt the most of it.

When you frame the AA debate in terms of whites/asians vs URMs, it substantially shifts the tone away from a "white man vs black man" argument that the press likes to set up.

Originally posted by MacGyver
When you frame the AA debate in terms of whites/asians vs URMs, it substantially shifts the tone away from a "white man vs black man" argument that the press likes to set up.

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What white vs. black argument? The argument is irrelevant, since whites still hold most of the power in this country. As soon as whites think they are being hurt (which they are thinking now) they will wield their power and change policy.

Don't worry, guys. AA will be stricken down, and White priveledge will be perpetuated, ad nauseum...

All this coming from a URM who thinks AA should be thrown out, but *only* when another way is found to bring diversity to higher education. I want to be considered an equal, and sadly, the only way I think that can happen is if AA is done with.

I was too busy watching the human-chimp hybrid show on the discovery channel last night to catch dateline. I guess I didn't miss much?

Just interested, other than African American, what groups are considered URMs?

URMs: African-American, Latinos, and Native Americans

Originally posted by UCSBPre-Med1
Look at your posts, bro: Ryo-Ohki's love for AA talk

You don't have to be a stalker to know that you always appear when this issue is raised. I hope that one day, you can learn to accept URMs in this country, because that is what hurts when I read this. Knowing that many whites think I'm inferior as an applicant just because I'm black. That's why we need to get rid of AA. I think URMs will suffer, but I'd rather the doctors who do make it be respected, then not by their white peers.

I think my career will suffer in the long run if white professors/chief residents/attendings don't respect me. Even if I do end up at UCSF!

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finally someone who has the same beliefs as me! never thought they would be an URM!

And why is that? Did you think that URMs want a hand-out?

I for one, don't. The UCs banned AA back in 1998, before I applied to college. I earned my spot by hard work, not AA.

Only by having a truly color-blind admissions process can we hope to erase the bitterness that many whites (including Ryo-Ohki) feel towards URMs.

*But* that isn't to say that some sort of diversity is not needed in undergrad and med schools--it is. I just don't think that AA is the way to go about it.

Originally posted by UCSBPre-Med1
URMs: African-American, Latinos, and Native Americans

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Actually not all Latinos. AAMC specifies only Mexican-American and Puerto Rican Main Islanders as being URM.

I agree with your views UCSBPreMed, I'm Latino but not URM, and I am so sick of people thinking that if I do get into med school, it'll be thanks to my race. Atleast I can point out that as a Central American, I am not considered URM, but the whole AA thing still invokes an incredible amount of racism (for example that okyo-whateverhisnameis character).

Originally posted by UCSBPre-Med1

All this coming from a URM who thinks AA should be thrown out, but *only* when another way is found to bring diversity to higher education. I want to be considered an equal, and sadly, the only way I think that can happen is if AA is done with.

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The best way is for URMs to earn the same types of qualifications that everyone else does. You said that you got a 3.9 and a 31, which certainly qualifies you for medical school, even if your skin is green. However, we both know that most URM matriculants do not have these types of numbers. I think more respect will be given when there isn't a significant statistical difference between URM accepts and white/Asian accepts. Right or wrong, perception is reality, and even a URM with a 4.0 and a 45 MCAT is going to have their reputation dragged down a little by the statistics of their peers.

Well, you certainly seem to possess an extraordinary amount of anger towards me, my friend UCSBPre-Med1. I still do not know why my replying on AA threads would bother you so much. However, I do enjoy being called a racist. Someone is a racist because he vehemently believes that discrimination on the basis of race in college admissions is wrong. It is fascinating how AA can turn everything upside down. You're a racist if you do not believe in preferential treatment based on race. We shouldn't discriminate between people on academic factors such as GPA/MCAT for admissions into an academic school. Don?t you love the self-contridicatory nature of it all?

Mac is right. They never explored how AA effects non-preferred minorities like Asians, Indians, etc. I recently read an article that Asian acceptance % went up significantly after Prop 209. This, of course, makes me think that Asians contribute significantly to the population of sacrificial lambs for Diversity.

It is funny how AA and its discrimination by race forefathers goes against our very laws. We seem to have to write more and more specific laws to stymie the people who favor discrimination by race.

14th Amendment
No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
--- Pretty clear. Although race is not mentioned specifically, we should gather that everyone deserves "equal protection of the laws" (ie: black and white). We can thank the Plessy v. Ferguson ruling for the bastardization of this particular law.

Civil Rights Act of 1964
No person in the United States shall, on the ground of race, color, or national origin, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance.
--- Race is mentioned specifically because some people just do not seem to get it. It is there in black and white. There should no discrimination on the basis of race under any program or activity receiving federal financial assistance (yes, colleges receive federal financial assistance). We can thank Bakke v. UC Regeants for creating the whole mess we have today. Of course, some people try to rationalize that we can show preferential treatment to blacks in college admissions without violating this law (because nowhere does it read that we can not give preferential treatment based on race...we can only not discriminate based on race). So, people who believed in equality had to write another law.

Proposition 209
The state shall not discriminate against, or grant preferential treatment to, any individual or group on the basis of race, sex, color, ethnicity, or national origin in the operation of public employment, public education, or public contracting.
---As you can see, it pretty much mirrors the 1964 Civil Rights Act. It just spells it out for those people who believe preferential treatment based on race in a zero sum game is not racial discrimination. It is funny how arguements based on the 1964 Civil Rights Act couldn't end AA while this almost identical law would.

The US Constitution is the peoples' covenant with their government. Some of us take this covenant for granted and willfully violate it for our personal interests. These "living document" ideologues do not seem to understand how this society makes 200 million citizens with widely conflicting ideologies and self-interests live in relative peace. Citizens obey laws in the expectation that their neighbors will obey the same laws (equal treatment under the laws). Of course we have mechanisms in place to change unfair laws, even laws written into the covenant. If you feel certain citizens defined by race deserve special protection under our laws, than you can certainly try to change our Constitution by a 3/4 vote. Every time we say there is a compelling state interest to violate our Constitution for a dubious self-interest social benefit (ie:engineered racial diversity on college campuses), we poke another hole in the covenant. However, you must say, one little hole doesn't matter. The most powerful civilizations in history have collapsed for one reason or another. If or when the United States collapses, it will be because of all of these little holes we have poked.

Stop thinking like a "Stupid White Man," and just pretend for a moment that you're a physician: you have a very ill patient, you know that a certain medication will cure/relieve the patients's problems, yet there are some side effects, as with almost every necessary medication. Would you myopically focus on side effects, or would you discuss the risks vs. benefits, and prescribe necessary medication? Try to look objectively and the advances made to date, and you'll realize the tremendous benefits to our country. Guys, the playing field is not yet level - until we live in a color-blind world, we need AA.

"Guys, the playing field is not yet level - until we live in a color-blind world, we need AA."

Why don't asians, south east and otherwise, not need it then? Cause this angle is BS rhetoric?

Originally posted by UCSBPre-Med1
What white vs. black argument?

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Surely you are joking. AA is always framed as a whiney white person vs a black applicant. Why havent Asian voices been heard, especially when they are being hurt MORE by AA than whites are?

Thats like investigating an incident for the police and refusing to question a key witness at the scene--shoddy work.

The argument is irrelevant, since whites still hold most of the power in this country. As soon as whites think they are being hurt (which they are thinking now) they will wield their power and change policy

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No the argument is precisely relevant because without it, everyone assumes that its ONLY whites who are affected by AA which is not true at all. Its a disingenuous setup to have only whites on one side of hte issue while ignoring the plight of Asians.

Originally posted by David Blonder
Guys, the playing field is not yet level - until we live in a color-blind world, we need AA.

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By having AA, we are forcing ourselves into a society that is not color blinded.

I am firmly against AA, but I hate to see the numbers game thrown up. Keep in mind that many applicants have stellar GPA's and MCAT scores, but they have personalities of rocks. These people will not make great physicians because a physician does need good communication and interpersonal skills. In addition, I would rather see someone with a 21 MCAT, 2.8 GPA, and significant research, humanity relief, or some major accomplishment get into medical school than I would someone with a 35 MCAT, 4.0 GPA, and his/her only extracurricular experience was volunteering on weekends in the ED.

keep in mind though that a 21 on the mcat is pathetic.

Originally posted by UCSBPre-Med1
And why is that? Did you think that URMs want a hand-out?

I for one, don't. The UCs banned AA back in 1998, before I applied to college. I earned my spot by hard work, not AA.

Only by having a truly color-blind admissions process can we hope to erase the bitterness that many whites (including Ryo-Ohki) feel towards URMs.

*But* that isn't to say that some sort of diversity is not needed in undergrad and med schools--it is. I just don't think that AA is the way to go about it.

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no, i do not believe that all URMs want a handout... i'm sure some do just as some non-URMs do... nope, i've been saying pretty much the same thing as you for the last couple months on different AA threads and i never found anyone who agreed with me...

I posted this before, but I didn't get a response. Here goes again...

How about we turn this into a forum for people that are opposed to AA to discuss alternative solutions to the lack of diversity in the medical profession? I would think that the opponents of the institution surely wouldn't want to go to medical school where all of the other students are from the same cultural background. I would be enthralled to hear some solutions to the problem other than it's not fair, URMs should do better on the MCAT, or study more in school. Those really aren't solutions, because many URMs do study extremely hard, but still fall short.

Of course, it's ironic, but necessary. On the surface, AA is very easy to shoot it down because it utilizes discrimination today to promote equality tomorrow.

While the african-american population far outnumbers the asian-american population in our nation, a quick review of our top national universities reveals the the largest minority at our most prestigious universities is asian-american, including, but not limited to: MIT, NJ Inst. Tech, Polytechnic U, Stanford, UCLA, USC , UC-Berkley, Harvard, Rutgers, Pace, CIT, Duke, Yale, Princeton,Brown, Cornell, Emory, Dartmouth, GIT, Johns Hopkins, BU, GW, Rensselaer, BC, Case Western, Vanderbilt, Brandeis, Virg.Tech, and many more.

Use the link below for a complete listing of our top universities ranked according to diversity by US News:

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/natudoc/natudoc_campdiv_brief.php

So you're saying black applicants study as hard as a white applicants but still score significantly worse? That doesn't make any sense.

McWhoter's essays, Ogbu's qualitative research on Shaker Heights, my own observations all suggest to me that blacks are rejecting academic standards such as the MCAT because they view them as white standards. Because they view these tests as white standards, they do not study as hard for fear of "losing" their black identity (ie: acting white).

Can you point me toward research that suggest blacks who study as much as whites also score significantly worse?

Originally posted by UCSBPre-Med1
And why is that? Did you think that URMs want a hand-out?

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Yes, URMs WANT a hand out. Look at how many minorities support it. If they really didnt want a hand out, they wouldnt support AA.

Thats simple common sense

Now, that being said, I cant really blame them for wanting a handout. All groups want handouts, whites and asians included. No group ever just agreed to give up a conferred governmental advantage. I dont expect blacks to do that either.

However, it does skew their view on the matter. Blacks (or any other group with protections/advantages conferred by the government) will NEVER, EVER, EVER JUST VOLUNTARILTY GIVE UP THAT PRIVILEGE. Even if AA continues for another 500 years, they still wont just hand it over, they will continue to scream that discrimination still exists.

Originally posted by MacGyver
Surely you are joking. AA is always framed as a whiney white person vs a black applicant. Why havent Asian voices been heard, especially when they are being hurt MORE by AA than whites are?

Thats like investigating an incident for the police and refusing to question a key witness at the scene--shoddy work.



No the argument is precisely relevant because without it, everyone assumes that its ONLY whites who are affected by AA which is not true at all. Its a disingenuous setup to have only whites on one side of hte issue while ignoring the plight of Asians.

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No I wasn't joking. Of course there is a white vs. black argument against AA. WHAT I WAS SAYING IF YOU READ WHAT ELSE I WROTE, was that it doesn't matter. You guys still have all the power, so if you think you're being short-changed, the laws will change.

Now Asians are definately negatively affected by AA. But on average, whites are the ones who are complaing for the most part, for whatever reasons (maybe because they realize that things still aren't equal, and something needs to be done). This has become whites vs. blacks because whites are getting angry that they aren't getting into schools, while blacks (once again) feel that they are being targeted by bigotry, and know that without some sort of remedy to the school system problem, prestigious schools will become entirely white and Asian.

Who's to say that either side is right, but the subtle and not-so subtle racism of a few posters here is pretty evident. I can see where whites are coming from on this issue, but I think we could all relax and find some solution to this problem if whites saw where blacks are coming from. For the most part, minority schools are shoddy and inferior. With bad schools, how does one expect URMs to compete with their white counterparts from rich, public, and rich, private school districts? They can't.

I think that AA needs to be abolished, just because I'm tired of hearing the URM (mainly black) bashing that is taking place by many whites.

I don't know why you guys are so upset, its not like they are going to keep it anyway. Most of the Supreme Court is white, and they will see things your way.

The question is, whether the hatred will go away once AA is removed...

Originally posted by MacGyver
Yes, URMs WANT a hand out. Look at how many minorities support it. If they really didnt want a hand out, they wouldnt support AA.

Thats simple common sense

Now, that being said, I cant really blame them for wanting a handout. All groups want handouts, whites and asians included. No group ever just agreed to give up a conferred governmental advantage. I dont expect blacks to do that either.

However, it does skew their view on the matter. Blacks (or any other group with protections/advantages conferred by the government) will NEVER, EVER, EVER JUST VOLUNTARILTY GIVE UP THAT PRIVILEGE. Even if AA continues for another 500 years, they still wont just hand it over, they will continue to scream that discrimination still exists.

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Um, no its not simple common sense. Maybe well-off URMs want the handout to help them get into medical school (something difficult to do) but most URMs want AA because they view the educational system in this country as fatally flawed, and skewed towards whites. The only way (they believe) that the field can be leveled in any way is by having AA.

Of course, MacGyver, you obviously don't realize this since you probably went to an all-white, affluent or middle-class school system, where not having books, or good teachers was never a problem for you.

How come people, when attacking AA, always use blacks as their examples? It seems like AA is used as an excuse to bring out hidden racist feelings towards African-Americans.

Can't you guys see that things are not equal here, and we need to do something about it. I agree that AA is not the way, *but* something has to be done. MacGyver, do you at least agree with me there?

UCSB,

you are doing EXACTLY what I accused the media of doing, framing this as a white vs black debate when its really more complex than that.

There are Asians who are staunchly opposed to AA and have in fact filed lawsuits against it, yet these people are never mentioned.

There are a lot of asians who disagree with blacks/latinos/etc being given AA advantages; its not just white people who are mad about it, yet the media (and you apparently) would have everyone believe that it only affects whites.

Not true at all. Asians are victimized more by AA than whites are.

MacGyver, I'm not stupid enough to believe that Asians aren't affected.

I'm from California, and I know how great students many Asians are.

The media is, for the most part, white-run. Why do you think they don't show Asian complaints? Blacks have nothing to do with it. Even if Asians are complaining, whites are by far more vociferous.

Do you agree that schools are inherently unequal for many racial minorities?

Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki
14th Amendment
No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
--- Pretty clear. Although race is not mentioned specifically, we should gather that everyone deserves "equal protection of the laws" (ie: black and white). We can thank the Plessy v. Ferguson ruling for the bastardization of this particular law.

Civil Rights Act of 1964
No person in the United States shall, on the ground of race, color, or national origin, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance.
--- Race is mentioned specifically because some people just do not seem to get it. It is there in black and white. There should no discrimination on the basis of race under any program or activity receiving federal financial assistance (yes, colleges receive federal financial assistance). We can thank Bakke v. UC Regeants for creating the whole mess we have today. Of course, some people try to rationalize that we can show preferential treatment to blacks in college admissions without violating this law (because nowhere does it read that we can not give preferential treatment based on race...we can only not discriminate based on race). So, people who believed in equality had to write another law.

[/B]

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Thank you, Ryo-Ohki, for presenting a very intelligent and logical basis for your argument. I agree that AA violates the Civil Rights Act, but how does Plessy vs. Ferguson bastardize the 14th amendment? Plessy vs. Ferguson made it NOT okay to have segregation in public schools, which in consequence equalized them. This upheld the Fourteenth Amendment. Could you elaborate?

When we decided to become "pre-med" [I despise this term], we all knew what we were getting into. We all knew, at least we did if we were well-read, that roughly 2/3 of us would not get into a US medical school. I imagine we all continued, despite the chances, because somewhere we believed that health/healing (blah blah blah) was an important issue. If we agree on that, we must agree that our ultimate goal is to provide the best health care possible to the entire nation. There is a simple bottom line: People feel most comfortable seeing health care providers who are like themselves (mostly in terms of primary care physicians, arguably the most important ones in a general sense). Moreover, health care providers who can connect to their patient populations have better health outcomes, etc. For example, most Italian people I know prefer to see Italian physicians and are happier with their care when they do so. Indeed, the same is likely true for Jewish people, Asians, Blacks, Hispanics, and Native Americans.

It's undeniable that, on average, URMs do not have the same scores as white middle-class applicants do. Let's not take up the "why" argument here. Accept it as fact. At the same time, however, given what I said earlier, it's undeniable that we need these people as physicians, since they will provide care to a specific population. Thus, what are we to do? At this point, the best solution is AA. Furthermore, it's only something like 1500 URMs that are accepted each year. It's unlikely that all of them are in merely because they have URM status.

Yes, AA does, in many ways, give potentially less qualified applicants an advantage (in terms of hard numbers, at least). Though this may seem unfair, we do need URM physicians. They help to ensure a better health for the entire nation. Besides, given that we all knew the chances of admission when we started, why are some people whining about only 15000 effectively available spaces instead of 16500?

I think you're thinking of Brown v. Board of Education

Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki

Proposition 209
The state shall not discriminate against, or grant preferential treatment to, any individual or group on the basis of race, sex, color, ethnicity, or national origin in the operation of public employment, public education, or public contracting.

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This is the really damning one. Flat out, AA in schools is ILLEGAL, according to this law. No matter how much Michigan and other schools want to convince themselves that they are private, they are state run institutions. I realize that this law was written to protect minorities, but giving preferential treatment to them in admissions is strictly forbidden at state schools in this law.

Also, UMich not only gives preference to minorities, they give extra "points" to out of state applicants, international applicants (who get to pay in-state tutition), women (who are already a majority group), and so forth. Basically anything besides being a white male from Michigan gives you points there.

Mister lizard, prop 209 is for Californians .

Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki
I think you're thinking of Brown v. Board of Education

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right. the brown decision reversed the Plessy ruling.

Originally posted by LittleDrBob
I posted this before, but I didn't get a response. Here goes again...

How about we turn this into a forum for people that are opposed to AA to discuss alternative solutions to the lack of diversity in the medical profession? I would think that the opponents of the institution surely wouldn't want to go to medical school where all of the other students are from the same cultural background. I would be enthralled to hear some solutions to the problem other than it's not fair, URMs should do better on the MCAT, or study more in school. Those really aren't solutions, because many URMs do study extremely hard, but still fall short.

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I dont particularly see a reason why AA needs to be implemented in med school. The choice of school for the most part is irrelevant for most unless you're at the very top (Harvard or J Hopkins) or at the very bottom (Carribean med) as far as residency is concerned. The kind of numbers that URMs post would land them at the lower tier med schools or DO schools. Theres nothing wrong with either and I would venture to say that it makes little difference when you're a practicing doc in private practice where you went (maybe for the first job at most) and its all about how good you are. This also applies for academic med where your pedigree might land you the first appointment but its all about how much you publish.

Its quite different with law and B schools because a small handful of schools have access to a disproportinate number of the good high paying jobs so there might be a case to be made that test scores and grades should carry a little less weight.

I also dont see the reason why mexicans or puerto ricans should get preferential treatment and AA programs should be restricted to African-Americans and Native Americans.

Originally posted by ds81
Besides, given that we all knew the chances of admission when we started, why are some people whining about only 15000 effectively available spaces instead of 16500?

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This goes back to my observation posted on another thread that the people who cry most loudly about AA tend to be the ones who are likely to be displaced by the 1500 spots, i.e. not the top performing students. Sure you get a few aces here an there complaining about AA too, but by-in-large, the biggest naysayers of AA are the ones competing for the lower 10% of the entering class.