PM&R and Doctorate in Physical Therapy

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

12345678910

New Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
1
Reaction score
0
Hey folks. I have a question and Im hoping that you all could shed some light on this for me. As my fiance is currently completing her doctorate in physical therapy, Ive always wondered what the true difference is between that field and PM&R. Personally, I am a MD resident in a surgical sub-specialty, but to be completely honest, I am not entirely sure what the scope of PM&R is. My guess is that there are glaring differences (i.e. MD's having the liberty to prescribe meds and imaging), but that is probably the extent of my knowledge.

Is there any benefit for her to earn a MD and then pursue a career in PM&R (on top of her DPT)? Do programs exist where advanced standing in medical school can be granted to a DPT who wishes to continue onward with PM&R (similar to the oral/maxillofacial surgery residents that receive their dental degree then then complete 2 years of medical school to earn a MD prior to residency)?

Thanks for your help.
 
Is there any benefit for her to earn a MD and then pursue a career in PM&R (on top of her DPT)? Do programs exist where advanced standing in medical school can be granted to a DPT who wishes to continue onward with PM&R (similar to the oral/maxillofacial surgery residents that receive their dental degree then then complete 2 years of medical school to earn a MD prior to residency)?

Thanks for your help.

There is no program like that as far as I know. The PT training and MD/PM&R training is very different. There are no similarities in what a PT does vs physiatrist except we may treat the same types of patients.

In the outpatient MSK setting - Probably the closest comparison to what a physiatrist does is what an orthopedic surgeon does in clinic minus the surgery - so we do the initial assessment, H&P, order and do initial interpretation of imaging, write for medications, DME, interventions if appropriate, EMG if appropriate, and write the prescription for physical therapy. The PT then carries out the prescription. We see the patients as frequently as an orthopedic surgeon would (once for initial visit, then a few more times for follow up), PTs see them 2-3 times a week for however many weeks. Although some of us do give some intro level exercises, we leave it up to the PT to do most of the therapy.

In inpatient rehab - most of us function like an internist with a little more neuro/MSK background - so we admit the patient, do a H&P, write orders, round on patients every day and talk to families and patients. We have team meetings with PT, OT, SLP, nursing, social work, etc. to assess the progress and troubleshoot. If there is an acute issue, we can manage (run codes, transfer to acute care, etc.) then transfer. Some rehabs use consultants in other fields to manage specific issues and others don't. In my residency we had patients on dialysis, s/p transplant, LVAD patients, vent dependent spinal cord injury patients, etc. I dont' think a PT would be able to manage a vent or know what to do with abnormal labs.

DPTs are pushing for independent access to patients - and at the risk of offending some - I don't think that's bad IF they are willing to take the responsibility/risk. They're basically going to be like chiropractors. Patients will go directly to them, they will do an assessment and come up with some issues to work on, and take on the responsibility/malpractice risk of missing a cancer, fracture, or other medical issues. When physicians write the Rx for PT, the therapists trust that we already did the work up, ruled out red flag stuff, and will give them some medical parameters (cardiac precautions, etc.) to work within. When they treat patients independently, they don't have that luxury and they will need to deal with the consequences. If they feel ready to do that, more power to them. Same thing with chiros. I have caught vertebral compression fractures and cancer that they have missed. I had a patient with OPLL who was going to go to a chiro for initial care - I'm glad he didn't cuz he could've been paralyzed. I have had a PT do aggressive traction on a patient with severe RA (this was done prior to the patient coming to see me).

Bottomline there are "cowboys" in any field including medicine - and how much risk you are willing to take is up to the healthcare provider. I was taught by an attending to do the "yomama" sniff test. Would you want your mom (provided you like your mom) to be treated by that person? (like the people who go on about how NPs and PAs are MD/DO equivalent - would they want to go see a NP or PA if it was their health and life???)

my 2cents
 
Excellent post axm397!
It's like the basis of why go to a DO instead of a chiro.
 
DPTs are pushing for independent access to patients - and at the risk of offending some - I don't think that's bad IF they are willing to take the responsibility/risk. They're basically going to be like chiropractors. Patients will go directly to them, they will do an assessment and come up with some issues to work on, and take on the responsibility/malpractice risk of missing a cancer, fracture, or other medical issues. When physicians write the Rx for PT, the therapists trust that we already did the work up, ruled out red flag stuff, and will give them some medical parameters (cardiac precautions, etc.) to work within. When they treat patients independently, they don't have that luxury and they will need to deal with the consequences. If they feel ready to do that, more power to them. Same thing with chiros. I have caught vertebral compression fractures and cancer that they have missed. I had a patient with OPLL who was going to go to a chiro for initial care - I'm glad he didn't cuz he could've been paralyzed. I have had a PT do aggressive traction on a patient with severe RA (this was done prior to the patient coming to see me).

I agree with 95% of what you said with one "but". Most PT's I have worked with are opposed to direct access. My only concern is what happens if their lobby gets what they are asking for. Malpractice rates for PTs will go up, and the cost of healthcare goes up. Also, I can see a situation where some PTs will go back to doing shake&bake therapy (since that's where the $$$ is), use up the benefits, and then we see them.

I feel that we need to fight direct access for the patient's sake. Not for ours. We will continue to have work to do cleaning up the mess.:meanie:
 
As a PT I'd like to give my perspective. I don't think were are competing with physiatrists...AT ALL. They have a medical degree and we don't. the above poster did an excellent job outlining multiple scenarios outside of our scope of practice. In an acute rehab setting they are invaluable at bridging the gap from GP/Internist-PT. They "get it" from both perspectives and successfully manage the patients in this area.

However, I think direct access is not a risk in the outpatient clinic setting. We aren't competing with the PMR docs. We would like to see the patients before they see their GP. It is unbelievable reading perscriptions and evaluations from GPs, as a group they mismanage msk conditions frequently, which increases cost. I know we are much more qualified to see the msk outpatients.

From the patients perspective with LBP...they wait 2 weeks to see their GP...flexeril and vicodin and told to rest, return in 2 weeks....no better, 2 weeks for the MRI (neg), 3 weeks to see the ortho doc...PT referral, then 1 week to get into the PT.

If we could see them the first week and work with them for 6 visits, they would return to work/activities sooner and save some money. if the patient is not improving the we refer to PMR/ortho for a more thorough exam/imaging/work-up

I have included a few articles for reference:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16294989
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1756791/
http://www.jospt.org/issues/articleID.1159,type.7/article_detail.asp

The third one discusses the risk-benefit ratio of the dredded spinal tumor argument.
 
This post has raised some very good discussion regarding this subject. The push for direct access brings up very interesting concerns for a patient. Can my PT tell if I have cancer or a cervical myelopathy or a fracture? As was explained earlier, PTs need to be well schooled in red flags. These signs/symptoms alert us that conservative care is not needed and the patient must go their physician. These red flag issues are drilled into our heads from the beginning of our education through our last affiliation. Evaluation forms will usually include questions to ask the patient in order to help determine if the condition is more serious and within our scope of practiced.

i.e. Patient comes in with Low Back Pain

A PT should immediately inquire about the following:
1. Bowel and bladder dysfunction?
2. Sexual dysfunction?
3. Saddle parasthesias?
4. Exquisite tenderness to palpation if the patient had received a direct blow the spine or is elderly and has sustained a fall.
5. History of cancer?
6. Recent weight loss of greater than 10 lbs?
7. Non-anatomic distribution of pain?
8. Bilateral symptoms in legs?
9. Relentless pain that is not relieved by rest?
10. Night pain?

These are some questions that help us as PTs determine if the patient is dealing with something that would lie out of our scope of practice and require further guidance from another professional. These signs could indicate a tumor, cord dysfunction or a fracture.

It is a concern to some doctors as well that PTs may not have the clinical knowledge to determine when conservative treatment is not indicated. A lot of our education is focused on recognizing when something is not in our domain and may require a steroid injection, surgery, further diagnostic imaging or the guidance of an orthopedic surgeon, neurologist or physiatrist. Direct access is not a push to have PT take care of any musculoskeletal issue that arises; however, we are the experts in conservative care. If I had a problem that could be managed in such a fashion I would want to see a PT. If they cannot fix it or it is out of their scope of practice, they should know where to send me.

PTs do, at times, apply aggressive mobilizations in order to treat their patients. AXM is right in that sloppy PT and not being aware of precautions and contraindications of various mobilizations, modalities and exercises could have terrible results. Again, this is sloppy work and the exception not the rule.

The bottom line is that this should not be a case of competition. It should be a case of medical professionals working together in order to give the patient the best experience possible. Overall I think AXM and honker provided very useful information.
 
Just to play devil's advocate, which is a better solution: encouraging better education for those referring vs. granting direct access?
 
Both are great suggestions. Unlike many others, I do not see direct access as a monumental change. I think it is the hope of PTs to begin conservative care before a musculoskeletal issue reaches a chronic stage. This way we can do our job and patients will have better results.

Even with direct access we are still likely to get referrals from physicians and most PTs do not mind reading a good diagnosis from a doctor they trust. This is not a competition; it is about the patient's well being.
 
Excellent post axm397!
It's like the basis of why go to a DO instead of a chiro.

Physical therapy is a growing field with a large and expanding body of literature in support of our core treatment principals and ideals. I would highly recommend you spend some time in an academic physical therapy environment or at a dynamic sports and orthopedic physical therapy clinic.

I would welcome a personal message, but advise against another public posting without further thought, observation, education or experience on what a physical therapist does outside of the acute care environment.
 
http://www.jospt.org/issues/articleID.1159,type.7/article_detail.asp

This article was posted earlier, but it addresses several possible patient concerns with direct access. It also gives an overview of our diagnostic skills and ability to differentiate between a variety of medical conditions and determine if the patient would benefit from referral back to the physician. I would highly recommend this read as well as further examination of the articles cited in this paper.
 
http://www.jospt.org/issues/articleID.1159,type.7/article_detail.asp

This article was posted earlier, but it addresses several possible patient concerns with direct access. It also gives an overview of our diagnostic skills and ability to differentiate between a variety of medical conditions and determine if the patient would benefit from referral back to the physician. I would highly recommend this read as well as further examination of the articles cited in this paper.

I did read your citation and appreciate the link.

I personally do not see the issue of direct access as a competition. There is plenty of MSK for everybody. I don't question a physical therapies abilities to diagnose musculoskeletal problems any more than mine. The paper does bring up indirectly the issue of "who is the best diagnostician?" or "who can pick up the most red flags?" This is not my particular concern.

The issue as other posters have stated is the issue of risk. Even though incidence of things like tumors or occult fractures are low, the issue is who is responsible if things like that go undiagnosed and delay to diagnose. Physicians miss things ALL the time but again this isn't the issue or my point. Our responsibility is to make sure that the patient is medically appropriate to participate in therapies. If they aren't and there is bad outcome, that's on us. If you are willing to assume that they are medically appropriate and provide your treatment, then I think that you should be held just as accountable.
 
Based on my education, I feel that I do know when therapies are appropriate and I am fully confident in my abilities to utilize a certain treatment if there are no visible precautions or contraindications.

To your point, yes I think we are ready to assume the risks. I am just starting in the field, but I believe the push for direct access, as well as the push for the DPT, was started by PTs whose vast experience dealing with MsK pain has given them full confidence in their methods and ability. I do not think these pioneers are sacrificing what they believe in for a few bucks. I really think it just makes more sense for the patient.

It amazes me to see some of the hate and vitriol posted on other threads towards direct access and the DPT degree. I think many need education on what PTs do and what the education entails. Also, many of those vicious posters (none on this thread) are just making their own insecurities of dealing with MsK pain known to the world.
 
Interesting Thread.

I'm a medical student with a deepening interest in PM&R. I myself have unergone many MSK issues as a patient and I have developed respect for both fields.

Here's a question I'd to ask both groups. Particularly Fozzy whose post I have followed enthisiastically.

I feel that pain and MSK medicine is only now just scraping the surface of an integtrated understanding. I have been offered every aspect of the entirety of Western medicine. Injections, heavy pharmaceuticals, PT by consult, Surgeries, etc.

After engaging in many of them I've found Hatha Yoga to be the only preventative and effective course of treatment that is truely a solution. I've been through an Integrated PM&R/PT program at New England Baptist in Boston as well. And they come the closest to pushing hard workouts as an integrated solution.

So my question is which group would be more agressive with pushing very rigorous exercise of a specific nature? Are PM&R doc's contricted by hypertrophic medical-legal procedures such that they wouldn't push their MSK/pain patients hard? Are they too heavily influenced by pharmacological modalities? Maybe PT's are the better contact point for MSK patients?

I never recieved a good MSK physical exam until I got referred to a PT. Granted I went through an Occ. Med doc.
 
Let me make sure I have your question correct, you want to know which group would be likely to physically challenge their patients harder? This is a hard question to answer. Personally, I think that the bigger question is: What is physically challenging for the patient?

Typically when patients come to me, they are acutely or chronically disabled by their (presumed) MSK related pain. Everyone has to walk before they can run so I would expect a natural progression in intensity of exercise. I always go through conservative management first which includes physical therapy. I personally would use medications and/or injections to manage symptoms so that patients can participate in therapy. These patients are typically challenged by the therapists in my experience, assuming they are compliant.

Would I "push" a patient to do rigorous exercise? Certainly, when I think and usually the therapist thinks its appropriate. In your particular case, I don't know your medical history but it sounds like you are very functional to participate in yoga. I'm glad that you found a good solution to manage your symptoms but I would say that you are at a different place in the rehabilitation spectrum compared to most patients.

In regards to physical examination, I personally think that physiatrists do the better job compared to most other specialties, ortho and neuro included. There is some overlap in a physician's vs. a physical therapists physical examination since we have to cover many systems. Our MSK exam is meant to be a screening and to help focus our physical therapy prescriptions. I would expect a physical therapists exam to be more extensive since they have more time and a very specific focus.
 
If you are like me - a casualty of the Snowmageddon - and you really want to sink your teeth into this topic, I offer you the following:

"Much of what can possibly be said on this topic has been discussed ad nauseum on this forum over the years - TAUS"

Link 1

Link 2

Link 3

Link 4

Does anyone really have anything NEW to discuss on this matter?

As a PT-->DO-->PM&R Resident - I believe we are all spokes on the wheel of patient care for issues related to MSK/Neuro/Sports/Disability.

Enjoy the snow.
T.D.
 
Thanks for the items to think about.

I'm just doing my intial readings through here. There's alot I wouldn't be told unless I asked. I think my understanding of PM&R is too vague at the moment. But the threads and points you all made at least got me to the difference between the two positions on the same team.

What I worry about going forward is not being able to find a field that is not touched by my pervasive doubts about the actual functional effect of anything medicine has to offer outside of some very basic medical treatments. This, given my general experience with end-of-life/trainwreck/million dollar wastage of inpatient medicine--gleaned from work as a former health care employee. And my experience with the low-back-pain industrial complex. With it's expensive highly dubious surgical tendencies.

So I'm trying to turn over some rocks. In the effort of finding something in this circus that I can at least enjoy doing. Something I might actuially believe in at the end of the day.

Please let PM&R be that thing. I gotta find one to shadow.
 
In response to BPlaysitcool:
I think Fozzy hit the nail on the head. I would generally agree with everything he has to say. I feel (and I believe that the literature will back me up on this one) that patients are generally much more satisfied with PT evaluations vs. orthopod evaluations, but I am not sure if there is comparison data for physiatrists. This is in large part due to the length of time we get to evaluate our patients. The one point I would disagree with is the notion that a physiatrist script guides treatment (aside from reminding us of contraindications to certain modalities, which we should already have a good grasp on). The notion that we are clueless until a script is received is something that many (mainly older) docs still adhere to. This goes back to the stone age and it's absurd.

PTs sometimes get a bad rap for pushing patient "too hard". Again, a large part of our education is founded on knowing when it's appropriate to push a patient. Sometimes, we know that a patient could be doing more, but the personality of the patient is a huge limiting factor. Some patients feel that any uncomfortable experience is painful and therefore a setback. We have to educate and motivate. I love nothing more than a patient who wants to be pushed and eliminate the problem. These patients tend to have a high internal locus of control and they generally do great in PT (probably like yourself).

I wouldn't get to down on a profession you haven't started. There are a lot of terrific docs out there and some really great PTs. I would get to know some PTs in your area when you set up practice or begin your residency. Observing their treatments will give you a window into what you can expect from PT. Also, injections and appropriate medications can sometimes make or break what someone is able to do in PT. Physiatrists generally have great palpation skills and are very good at administering injections.
 
Top