I did it! Stopped Doctor Nurses at my hospital

Started by orangele
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orangele

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I recently posted my experience at the hospital where I work where a CRNA with a doctorate in Nursing Practice, started to use the title "Dr." and stated his intention to introduce himself as "Doctor," to patients and then explain to patients what his doctorate was in.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=720375

After discussing this problem with fellow physicians, I composed language as follows:

In order to avoid confusion between physicians and other healthcare professionals within the hospital, the title "Doctor," or the designation "Dr." is only to be used by physicians (M.D. and D.O.) and independent licensed practitioners (Dentists, Podiatrists) who have an established relationship with patients. Other healthcare professionals holding doctorate level degrees are specifically prohibited from using the title of "Doctor," or the designation "Dr." while performing their responsibilites in the hospital. It is appropriate however for other healthcare professionals who have advanced professional degress, to list these degrees on identification tags or badges, and placed or signed on hospital documents if such education is directly required or related to their professional duties, and has been verified in the credentialing process.


This language was taken to the Surgery committee which I chair and was approved and sent to the Medical Executive committee. It was just approved and will be added to the Rules and Regulations of the hospital to prevent "Doctor Nurses" from introducing themselves or using the title "Dr." in the hospital.

I hope that this approach can be used at other hospitals throughout the nation.



user_offline.gif
 
We recently had a petition from the Advanced practice Nurses in our community to be placed on the Medical Staff. The would have given them full voting rights and would have opened the door fro them to take over the medical staff since they will soon out number the true physicians of the community.

Well, to make a long story short their petition was shot down on a vote or 42 to 2. That's huge and physicians are not oblivious to the threat of these midlevel providers.
 
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orangele said:
I recently posted my experience at the hospital where I work where a CRNA with a doctorate in Nursing Practice, started to use the title "Dr." and stated his intention to introduce himself as "Doctor," to patients and then explain to patients what his doctorate was in.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=720375

After discussing this problem with fellow physicians, I composed language as follows:

In order to avoid confusion between physicians and other healthcare professionals within the hospital, the title "Doctor," or the designation "Dr." is only to be used by physicians (M.D. and D.O.) and independent licensed practitioners (Dentists, Podiatrists) who have an established relationship with patients. Other healthcare professionals holding doctorate level degrees are specifically prohibited from using the title of "Doctor," or the designation "Dr." while performing their responsibilites in the hospital. It is appropriate however for other healthcare professionals who have advanced professional degress, to list these degrees on identification tags or badges, and placed or signed on hospital documents if such education is directly required or related to their professional duties, and has been verified in the credentialing process.


This language was taken to the Surgery committee which I chair and was approved and sent to the Medical Executive committee. It was just approved and will be added to the Rules and Regulations of the hospital to prevent "Doctor Nurses" from introducing themselves or using the title "Dr." in the hospital.

I hope that this approach can be used at other hospitals throughout the nation.



user_offline.gif
Click to expand...
👍👍

Noyac said:
We recently had a petition from the Advanced practice Nurses in our community to be placed on the Medical Staff. The would have given them full voting rights and would have opened the door fro them to take over the medical staff since they will soon out number the true physicians of the community.

Well, to make a long story short their petition was shot down on a vote or 42 to 2. That's huge and physicians are not oblivious to the threat of these midlevel providers.
Click to expand...
👍👍 42-2, I guess they won't try that again next year.:meanie:

This would be a good opportunity for the ASA to lead and draft a good policy which could be used as a template across the nation.:slap:
 
We recently had a petition from the Advanced practice Nurses in our community to be placed on the Medical Staff. The would have given them full voting rights and would have opened the door fro them to take over the medical staff since they will soon out number the true physicians of the community.

Well, to make a long story short their petition was shot down on a vote or 42 to 2. That's huge and physicians are not oblivious to the threat of these midlevel providers.
Click to expand...
👍

That's right.

I'll probably get a reaction from this but, hell, it only fuels my drive. What's right is right. Only a physician (MD/DO) can be a physician period- in name, responsibility and scope of practice.

There can be no compromises.

And I'm so glad this trail is being blazed for we noob trainees. It is not a battle that we intend to overlook.

To orangele and all the other attendings maintaining the integrity of this specialty in particular and this profession as a whole, :bow:
 
Great job Orangele!!!!!
You deserve to be the president of the f..ing ASA!
 
this really made my day orangele!
- i emailed this to my dad, he's on the administrative board this year at his hospital and is just about to have a meeting discussing new hospital by-laws, he is going to push to have it added into their rules as well.

also, he was able to add the by-law this year that no CRNA can work independent of an anesthesiologist or without anesthesiologist supervision in his hospital. ( indiana law allows for 'physician supervision' , even non-anesthesiologists. )

i don't think other physicians are going to stand around and let midlevels run around calling themselves 'doctor'.. to other docs, crna's were once just 'anesthesia's problem', but with nurse encroachment occurring across the board, i feel that this is a great chance for all physicians to stand together.

one step at a time. 👍
 
karizma098 said:
this really made my day orangele!
- i emailed this to my dad, he's on the administrative board this year at his hospital and is just about to have a meeting discussing new hospital by-laws, he is going to push to have it added into their rules as well.

also, he was able to add the by-law this year that no CRNA can work independent of an anesthesiologist or without anesthesiologist supervision in his hospital. ( indiana law allows for 'physician supervision' , even non-anesthesiologists. )

i don't think other physicians are going to stand around and let midlevels run around calling themselves 'doctor'.. to other docs, crna's were once just 'anesthesia's problem', but with nurse encroachment occurring across the board, i feel that this is a great chance for all physicians to stand together.

one step at a time. 👍
Click to expand...

What's your father's specialty?
 
orangele said:
In order to avoid confusion between physicians and other healthcare professionals within the hospital, the title "Doctor," or the designation "Dr." is only to be used by physicians (M.D. and D.O.) and independent licensed practitioners (Dentists, Podiatrists) who have an established relationship with patients. Other healthcare professionals holding doctorate level degrees are specifically prohibited from using the title of "Doctor," or the designation "Dr." while performing their responsibilites in the hospital. It is appropriate however for other healthcare professionals who have advanced professional degress, to list these degrees on identification tags or badges, and placed or signed on hospital documents if such education is directly required or related to their professional duties, and has been verified in the credentialing process.
Click to expand...

Wow this made my night. Bravo!!

Caveat regarding the language: when it is stated that "independent licensed practitioners" can use the title, wouldn't this not include independent DNPs? I guess if you have none on staff it wouldnt be a problem but what if you did?
 
orangele said:
I recently posted my experience at the hospital where I work where a CRNA with a doctorate in Nursing Practice, started to use the title "Dr." and stated his intention to introduce himself as "Doctor," to patients and then explain to patients what his doctorate was in.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=720375

After discussing this problem with fellow physicians, I composed language as follows:

In order to avoid confusion between physicians and other healthcare professionals within the hospital, the title "Doctor," or the designation "Dr." is only to be used by physicians (M.D. and D.O.) and independent licensed practitioners (Dentists, Podiatrists) who have an established relationship with patients. Other healthcare professionals holding doctorate level degrees are specifically prohibited from using the title of "Doctor," or the designation "Dr." while performing their responsibilites in the hospital. It is appropriate however for other healthcare professionals who have advanced professional degress, to list these degrees on identification tags or badges, and placed or signed on hospital documents if such education is directly required or related to their professional duties, and has been verified in the credentialing process.


This language was taken to the Surgery committee which I chair and was approved and sent to the Medical Executive committee. It was just approved and will be added to the Rules and Regulations of the hospital to prevent "Doctor Nurses" from introducing themselves or using the title "Dr." in the hospital.

I hope that this approach can be used at other hospitals throughout the nation.



user_offline.gif
Click to expand...



👍👍👍👍👍


Very nice. Happy to hear this.
 
Noyac said:
What's your father's specialty?
Click to expand...

anesthesiology. this issue hits close to home for him as he's been dealing with doctor nurses the last few years now.

it's so nice to see a win ( even if it just starts with 1 hospital ) in a battle we've been losing on the big scale for so long.

orangele, i'm glad you were able to accomplish this, especially since you were semi-disillusioned with your career and hospital administration earlier on this year. it goes to show that in any situation, we can work to make a change.

we need to continue this work on a legislative level as well - here in illinois they're working on the 'truth in healthcare professional services act' which limits doctor nurses, chiros, and the sort from deceptively calling themselves 'dr'.
 
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orangele said:
This language was taken to the Surgery committee which I chair and was approved and sent to the Medical Executive committee. It was just approved and will be added to the Rules and Regulations of the hospital to prevent "Doctor Nurses" from introducing themselves or using the title "Dr." in the hospital.

I hope that this approach can be used at other hospitals throughout the nation.
Click to expand...
orangele,

👍

Would it be possible for you to provide an official document or just the portion of the document containing this addendum? You can black out the hospital's name or identifying information but it would help if we can see this in official writing since you are providing a good example to follow.


I know other hospitals have rules like this as well. Is it possible to make a petition to your own hospital requesting them to consider changing their own rules and regulations like this? How effective do you think this is in the battle against expanding scope of practice issues of nurse practitioners?
 
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just curious will this apply to PharmD', DPT, optometrist, chiros, or is just nursing you are so upset at? Hooray a victory over a title now go get the rest of them tiger. sheesh what rubes.
ROFLMAO
 
And just before I here complaints about trolling 99% of the threads here are one long group think, I just really enjoy baiting you, Arch ban the IP not like you can stop sedasys, or any other screen name. Have a nice day😀
 
sedasys said:
just curious will this apply to PharmD', DPT, optometrist, chiros, or is just nursing you are so upset at? Hooray a victory over a title now go get the rest of them tiger. sheesh what rubes.
ROFLMAO
Click to expand...

These militant murse anesthesia boys keep on provin' our points.

It's like taking candy from a baby 👍 :laugh:
 
orangele said:
I recently posted my experience at the hospital where I work where a CRNA with a doctorate in Nursing Practice, started to use the title "Dr." and stated his intention to introduce himself as "Doctor," to patients and then explain to patients what his doctorate was in.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=720375

After discussing this problem with fellow physicians, I composed language as follows:

In order to avoid confusion between physicians and other healthcare professionals within the hospital, the title "Doctor," or the designation "Dr." is only to be used by physicians (M.D. and D.O.) and independent licensed practitioners (Dentists, Podiatrists) who have an established relationship with patients. Other healthcare professionals holding doctorate level degrees are specifically prohibited from using the title of "Doctor," or the designation "Dr." while performing their responsibilites in the hospital. It is appropriate however for other healthcare professionals who have advanced professional degress, to list these degrees on identification tags or badges, and placed or signed on hospital documents if such education is directly required or related to their professional duties, and has been verified in the credentialing process.


This language was taken to the Surgery committee which I chair and was approved and sent to the Medical Executive committee. It was just approved and will be added to the Rules and Regulations of the hospital to prevent "Doctor Nurses" from introducing themselves or using the title "Dr." in the hospital.

I hope that this approach can be used at other hospitals throughout the nation.



user_offline.gif
Click to expand...

Nice Work!👍
 
orangele said:
i recently posted my experience at the hospital where i work where a crna with a doctorate in nursing practice, started to use the title "dr." and stated his intention to introduce himself as "doctor," to patients and then explain to patients what his doctorate was in.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=720375

after discussing this problem with fellow physicians, i composed language as follows:

in order to avoid confusion between physicians and other healthcare professionals within the hospital, the title "doctor," or the designation "dr." is only to be used by physicians (m.d. And d.o.) and independent licensed practitioners (dentists, podiatrists) who have an established relationship with patients. other healthcare professionals holding doctorate level degrees are specifically prohibited from using the title of "doctor," or the designation "dr." while performing their responsibilites in the hospital. It is appropriate however for other healthcare professionals who have advanced professional degress, to list these degrees on identification tags or badges, and placed or signed on hospital documents if such education is directly required or related to their professional duties, and has been verified in the credentialing process.


this language was taken to the surgery committee which i chair and was approved and sent to the medical executive committee. It was just approved and will be added to the rules and regulations of the hospital to prevent "doctor nurses" from introducing themselves or using the title "dr." in the hospital.

i hope that this approach can be used at other hospitals throughout the nation.



user_offline.gif
Click to expand...



awesome!!
 
sedasys said:
just curious will this apply to PharmD', DPT, optometrist, chiros, or is just nursing you are so upset at? Hooray a victory over a title now go get the rest of them tiger. sheesh what rubes.
ROFLMAO
Click to expand...

I'm not sure I've ever seen a PharmD/DPT introduce themselves as Dr. Pharmacist or Dr. Physical Therapist. They are usually smart enough to realize and understand that the title of Doctor is only applicable to MD & DOs in order to avoid confusion in a clinical setting.

I'm a nurse, but i cant stand 90% of other nurses. I cant understand why nurses, more so than any profession, get off of having 30 titles behind their name. I attended a conference and every doctor on the schedule simply had M.D. behind their name, while the handful of RNs that were to speak were Jane Doe, BSN, MSN, RN, BLS, ACLS, TNCC, CCRN, PALS. It makes me sick, and I'll be glad when I let my license lapse after PA school.

And strong work orangele 👍
 
Nice work! This is a win for patients as more than
anyone else. That dude obviously has a fragile ego, and had no problem deceiving patients to make himself feel more powerful
 
SouthSideSteve said:
I'm not sure I've ever seen a PharmD/DPT introduce themselves as Dr. Pharmacist or Dr. Physical Therapist. They are usually smart enough to realize and understand that the title of Doctor is only applicable to MD & DOs in order to avoid confusion in a clinical setting.

I'm a nurse, but i cant stand 90% of other nurses. I cant understand why nurses, more so than any profession, get off of having 30 titles behind their name. I attended a conference and every doctor on the schedule simply had M.D. behind their name, while the handful of RNs that were to speak were Jane Doe, BSN, MSN, RN, BLS, ACLS, TNCC, CCRN, PALS. It makes me sick, and I'll be glad when I let my license lapse after PA school.
Click to expand...
:laugh:

👍
 
Noyac said:
We recently had a petition from the Advanced practice Nurses in our community to be placed on the Medical Staff. The would have given them full voting rights and would have opened the door fro them to take over the medical staff since they will soon out number the true physicians of the community.

Well, to make a long story short their petition was shot down on a vote or 42 to 2. That's huge and physicians are not oblivious to the threat of these midlevel providers.
Click to expand...

Who were the 2 ??? Tools, to be sure.....
 
SouthSideSteve said:
I'm not sure I've ever seen a PharmD/DPT introduce themselves as Dr. Pharmacist or Dr. Physical Therapist. They are usually smart enough to realize and understand that the title of Doctor is only applicable to MD & DOs in order to avoid confusion in a clinical setting.

I'm a nurse, but i cant stand 90% of other nurses. I cant understand why nurses, more so than any profession, get off of having 30 titles behind their name. I attended a conference and every doctor on the schedule simply had M.D. behind their name, while the handful of RNs that were to speak were Jane Doe, BSN, MSN, RN, BLS, ACLS, TNCC, CCRN, PALS. It makes me sick, and I'll be glad when I let my license lapse after PA school.

And strong work orangele 👍
Click to expand...

👍👍👍
 
Great job Orangele!!

Hey man..can you make a template for all the other attnedings to use to make at their own institutions's med staff meetings?
 
SouthSideSteve said:
I'm not sure I've ever seen a PharmD/DPT introduce themselves as Dr. Pharmacist or Dr. Physical Therapist. They are usually smart enough to realize and understand that the title of Doctor is only applicable to MD & DOs in order to avoid confusion in a clinical setting.

I'm a nurse, but i cant stand 90% of other nurses. I cant understand why nurses, more so than any profession, get off of having 30 titles behind their name. I attended a conference and every doctor on the schedule simply had M.D. behind their name, while the handful of RNs that were to speak were Jane Doe, BSN, MSN, RN, BLS, ACLS, TNCC, CCRN, PALS. It makes me sick, and I'll be glad when I let my license lapse after PA school.

And strong work orangele 👍
Click to expand...

Exactly. I just finished a month in the MICU with PharmD's rounding with us, actually. None of them refered to themselves as "Dr". It IS confusing for the patients, and only the most insecure of nurses would do such things..... (not to offend all nurses as I notice you are an RN to be PA)
 
Noyac said:
We recently had a petition from the Advanced practice Nurses in our community to be placed on the Medical Staff. The would have given them full voting rights and would have opened the door fro them to take over the medical staff since they will soon out number the true physicians of the community.

Well, to make a long story short their petition was shot down on a vote or 42 to 2. That's huge and physicians are not oblivious to the threat of these midlevel providers.
Click to expand...

While it's great that the proposal was shot down, it should still be concerning to everyone here that 2 physicians supported the measure. No physician should have to think twice about supporting this measure. The answer is always NO. We need to educate our colleagues about the political agenda of nursing. We need to fight back. It appalls me when I talk about this topic to my clueless residents. Every med student, every resident, every attending needs to know and understand what's happening.
 
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Orangele 👍👍👍

I think that there SHOULD be a special title to identify the nurse who has put in extra training to obtain a doctorate of whatever...


What could it be?


Hmmm...


Durse? :meanie:


- pod
 
Good job orangele! This is an excellent start and an admirable example that other physicians who have any sort of influence should emulate.

Enacting measures like this should be a two pronged effort - restricting the use of "doctor" at each institution (as you have helped to get done) and also lobbying state legislatures (through both direct contact with representatives and via state medical political groups) to make it expressly illegal to refer to oneself as a "doctor" without the appropriate credentials.
 
Any hospital that doesn't ban this crap entirely should at least require these impostors who introduce themselves as "doctor" use "air quotes."

I'll use the air quotes when addressing them as well.
 
This was certainly a great step in the right direction for limiting patient confusion from other personnel who may hold advanced degrees from introducing themselves as Dr.

In a word... AWESOME! Keep up the good work, this needs to be adopted in every institution.
 
Who cares? The CRNA has Dr. in front of his name boo-hoo.
boohoo.jpg


The patient doesn't even come in to see the anesthesiologist.
 
Last edited:
spam.
And what is funny - nobody will stop now the other nurses to be CRNA-s. You don't need a school to be a crna. You can get it online.
And why not - you get a PhD online - which seems more than a CRNA title..Or not?
Now you got confused and you gonna send a letter to AANA to ask for advice and you gonna post later.
I am right?
Funny - I see the hyenas killing themselves.
 
Taurus said:
Every med student, every resident, every attending needs to know and understand what's happening.
Click to expand...

I am doing my part. I'm starting at the future of the profession... medical students. I have been talking to my classmates about this, it really opens up their eyes. They are totally appalled when they hear about it.
 
badasshairday said:
I am doing my part. I'm starting at the future of the profession... medical students. I have been talking to my classmates about this, it really opens up their eyes. They are totally appalled when they hear about it.
Click to expand...

And it's not just those of us going into anesthesiology. A classmate of mine (going into ENT) was openly sickened when the nurse giving a talk about Palliative Care introduced herself as "Dr."
 
cfdavid said:
And it's not just those of us going into anesthesiology. A classmate of mine (going into ENT) was openly sickened when the nurse giving a talk about Palliative Care introduced herself as "Dr."
Click to expand...

I'm all for the the defense of the profession and all, but in a teaching situation, things do get a bit grayer. I called many of my profs "Dr." b/c of their PhDs. If she's with a patient, it's not cool. If she's with students, I think it's probably warranted. If she's with both, 😕 Guess it mostly matters who she's addressing.
 
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periopdoc said:
Orangele 👍👍👍

I think that there SHOULD be a special title to identify the nurse who has put in extra training to obtain a doctorate of whatever...


What could it be?


Hmmm...


Durse? :meanie:


- pod
Click to expand...

😆

airquotes would work great too.
 
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GoodmanBrown said:
I'm all for the the defense of the profession and all, but in a teaching situation, things do get a bit grayer. I called many of my profs "Dr." b/c of their PhDs. If she's with a patient, it's not cool. If she's with students, I think it's probably warranted. If she's with both, 😕 Guess it mostly matters who she's addressing.
Click to expand...

Point taken, but it's a little different than calling your biochem prof "Dr. soandso"

This was in a clinical situation where she way speaking to 4th med students, and in the hospital mind you.
 
dr doze said:
Many docs employ or "affiliate with" nurse practitioners. This way they don't look bad in front of their employees/colleagues by voting against the measure.

CRNA students in my neck of the woods refer to themselves as residents.
Click to expand...

Now that's just over the top, IMHO.......
 
GoodmanBrown said:
I'm all for the the defense of the profession and all, but in a teaching situation, things do get a bit grayer. I called many of my profs "Dr." b/c of their PhDs. If she's with a patient, it's not cool. If she's with students, I think it's probably warranted. If she's with both, 😕 Guess it mostly matters who she's addressing.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I called my literature professors "doctor" back in the day. Nonclinical settings I'm fine with any doctorate holder using the Dr title. It's when such people deliberately deceive patients to inflate their status that we should go high and right.
 
cfdavid said:
Now that's just over the top, IMHO.......
Click to expand...

Oh yeah....not that uncommon. During my residency, the SRNAs had the audacity to call their meager clinical training "residency". They did take ONE in house call a month during the last 12 months of their training (compared to our 6-7 calls a month X 3 years).
 
This whole Dr. title is totally a "me-too" mentality by the nurses. "He has a doctorate (DPT's, Audiology Doctorate, PharmD, MD), I SHOULD TOO!" ME TOO, ME TOO! Everyone wants to be a Dr., it is a prestige thing.

This whole thing is pretty annoying actually.

And ditto on the whole DNP being an all out MEDICAL, not only anesthesiology, problem. Like I said, medical students second years, are totally disgusted by this. As the word spreads, we will have a generation of physicians with contempt for DNP's, so guess who the choice mid-level will be? Physician Assistant.
 
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