Why Asian American Students Succeed

Originally posted by mecute
1.) Supporting Parents who encourage them

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I'm white, not Asian, but I can say with the utmost confidence that the parents are not "encouraging." The correct word should instead be demanding. Education success is a requirement, not an option, in most circumstances.

I'm white, not Asian, but I can say with the utmost confidence that the parents are not "encouraging." The correct word should instead be demanding. Education success is a requirement, not an option, in most circumstances.

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The belief that all Asian parents are demanding is somewhat of a myth. Granted, many Asian parents do expect a lot from their children, but can also be very encouraging.

As far as Asian-American parents go, The Niesei (second) generation was very hard on their children. This was, in part, due to the aftermath of the war and the internment. Because their parents were so hard on them, the Sansei (third) generation is much more encouraging.

My mother has always encouraged my dreams, and has never pressured me toward any particular career. In fact, she was somewhat cautious of my decision to be a doctor only because she was concerned about my motivation. The same is true of most of my other Asian friends.

Be careful of using qualifiers such as "utmost confidence", it leads to overgeneralization.

Here is why I think some Asians succeed in the US

The Asians that emigrated to the US were/are self-selected meaning that the many of the Asians who came to the US were already educated, wealthy by their country's standards, and extremely motivated. It is highly unlikely that any slaves that came to the US came under those circumstances which is one reason why it's unfair to compare Asians and Blacks.

So it's no surprise that Asians as a group tend to be successful in education, business, etc. But that is not to say that Asians have completely assimilated and are as successful as their Caucasian counterparts. An analysis of census data reveals that Asians earn less than Caucasians and Blacks with the same education. Hispanics earned the least. Link

and the model minority myth doesn't help either...
Myth of Asian ?model minority? reeks of racism

14% of Asians live in poverty...
More good stuff

Originally posted by vivekap2007
Here is why I think some Asians succeed in the US

The Asians that emigrated to the US were/are self-selected meaning that the many of the Asians who came to the US were already educated, wealthy by their country's standards, and extremely motivated. It is highly unlikely that any slaves that came to the US came under those circumstances which is one reason why it's unfair to compare Asians and Blacks.

So it's no surprise that Asians as a group tend to be successful in education, business, etc. But that is not to say that Asians have completely assimilated and are as successful as their Caucasian counterparts. An analysis of census data reveals that Asians earn less than Caucasians and Blacks with the same education. Hispanics earned the least. Link

and the model minority myth doesn't help either...
Myth of Asian ?model minority? reeks of racism

14% of Asians live in poverty...
More good stuff

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I don't know why people believe this stuff. Yeah, maybe only 14% of Asians live in technical poverty, but most Asian families aren't as privileged as you think. My parents came to America with nothing in their pockets, and they had to fight their way up. No, they weren't well educated either; in fact, most of the Asian families I know had to struggle in the early years of their children's lives. However, most of those children have grown up to be very successful (in fact almost all are pursuing graduate degrees). So I think that it is a false generalization to say that Asians who emigrated to the US were well-educated and priviliged. That is simply not true. Have you ever visited Chinatown in LA, Chicago, or San Francisco? Ask the owners of those restaurants and shops. I bet you anything that a majority of the children are in college or have completed college.

Another reason why you may think that the Asians who emigrated are self-selected is because of the U.S.'s immigration policy in the 1970s, which recruited engineers, doctors, and professors from China and other countries. However, you must keep in mind that Asian does not equal Chinese. Many Thai, Cambodian, Laos, and Vietnamese descendants do not have that background, because the U.S. did not recruit from these countries. Therefore it is a myth that most Asians come from well-educated parents.

hmmm..good arguments on both sides. Unfortunately, there is not a large Asian population in my hometown or the college which I attend. But I'm very interested about what other Asian-Americans out there think about this issue and their value system/way in which the were raised compared to other cultures--so bring on the posts!!

I'm asian american and i dont see the point of the thread. please enlighten me.

Sage 144, why must we always resort to labeling someone elses opinion as idiotic or stupid or an embarassment? Sure, many generalizations cross a great number of cultures, but this thread, I believe is an attempt to simply disect the reasons for potential asian american success.

There are multiple prongs to AA success. Sure, we can see that not all asian families are supportive and not all asian children are model minorities, however, as a general group, asian americans have been very successful.

No, asian immigration has not been greatly affected by selection, i.e. not just the rich and educated immigrate. I doubt the rich and educated from Vietnam made up most of the "boat" people -- families that fled on rafts and makeshift boats to find a better life.

Comparisons between groups are never fair. We should not resort to comparing which group is better or worse than any other. I believe we are only trying to find the basic principles behind our own success -- so that we can continue to perpetuate success in generations to come.

Every race encounters a set of different problems. I know my scoiologists attempt to look at why mexican americans or puerto ricans or cuban americans succeed at varying levels. It's to understand a little of ourselves... an attempt to improve.

No ideas are stupid... maybe incomplete, not completely thought out, etc... but please... lets not belittle one another.

I definitely agree that there is a degree of selection involved in the Asian community, but not in the way that has been suggested heretofore (that is, rich, educated Asians only, so on).

The selection lies in this: Asians in America are an immigrant population. A huge number of them left their various homelands for America and other countries because there is more opportunity here -- less people, more total resources, less competition for resources in general. Also, there is a perception that here, unlike "back home", people can work hard and make something of themselves, because in America everyone has access to an education and the opportunities that come with it.

I think this is more a function of Asians being a large immigrant population hailing mostly from the third world, rather than being Asian per se.

Going off number 2: Culture that is founded upon hard work and competition.

I have had the privilege of being part of a Korean family but experiencing the American culture...our family immigrated when I was 5 and now I am 20. I love America, I love democracy, and I love capitalism so by no means am I trying to uplift one culture over another.

This summer I am currently in South Korea visiting family members and the one aspect of this culture that awes me is how hard the people work here. It's not abnormal to have a 6 day work day (from Monday through Saturday) or sometimes even on Sunday. My grandma, for instance, works the fields from 7 am until 6 pm Monday through Saturday. My uncle comes home at 4am and goes to work by 10 am...it's unbelievable how much they work.

Even the children learn that hard work is what is expected of them; my little cousins attend school Monday through Saturday, albeit they have varying hours when the are dismissed from school. On top of going to school, doing homework, studying, etc., it isn't unusual for each Korean child to get extra tutoring outside of school. One of my cousins go to piano lessons everyday after school and the other one receives English language tutoring also everyday after school. It isn't unusual for my stepsister, who's 17, to come home from the library at midnight everyday only to get up at 7 am for school the next day.

My observation on why they work so hard is this: there are apporximately 50 million people populating South Korea and minimal numbers of universities; in order to get into something equivalent to a state school, you must have average to above average grades. There is a Seoul National University that can be equivalent to a Harvard and from what I understand, the admissions process is somewhat as rigorous as med school admissions. It doesn't do enough to be valedictorian at your high school; you must be a pretty well rounded person (hence the after school tutorials, etc).

And, children are taught English from Elementry school and beyond because if you can not speak English, forget about landing on a decent paying job. I feel so lazy in comparison to the work ethic that's displayed here. But by no means am I lauding their workaholic attitudes and am so thankful that I live in America where opportunities are boundless. Even if you don't follow the strict methodology that Koreans do, in America education is always there for you, regardless of age.

All I know is my experiences and from my experiences here and at home, this part of Asia is definitely founded upon hard work and a competitive spirit.

I am also AA and dont see the point of this thread other than it offering an explanation as to why AA's are succesful (which doesn't apply to all AA's).

My parents are very demanding/encouraging when it comes to academics. There dream is for me to become a doctor. And thats fine. But this is my life and I will decide what I will do. I have chosen medicine not for them, but because I am fascinated with the medical field, and everything medical. I volunteer at several places including a hospital and free clinic and I enjoy every second of it, even if sometimes I am stuck with filing. I enjoy watching the operations on TLC and DISC Health channel. I also realize that I need to think of my future, and the financial burdens that I may have. Doing something I like and thinking of my financial future in these uncertain times is why I WILL be succesful, not to mention my desire and motivation for a career in the med field. For me, its not the things that were listed in the first post.

Although most of your statements seem to be true, they dont apply to all AA's. Any person of any race can be as succesful as they would like; their future is in their hands.

Originally posted by Sage144

Your post is the most idiotic ones I think I've ever read in this forum. You should be embarrassed.

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Sage144, you were obviously born without the ability to articulate your argument in terms that exclude guttural grunts and crude insults.

As a GROUP certain cultures (for example asians and jews) highly value education and academic achievement. That doesn't mean they are better -- just that they are raised to do well on things like standardized exams. This has led to their success and over-representation in medical school admissions. On the other hand, certain groups (for example, african americans) have highly valued things such as sports. Therefore they have excelled in that arena. The whole question of AA is partly economic, but also heavily social -- should we take into account these cultural biases in admissions?

http://www.hvk.org/articles/0600/15.html

PS - Why do people say caucasian and compare that to Asian? That is improper, Indians are caucasian but they are also Asian. Caucasian, Negroid and Mongoloid have nothing to do with Asian, African etc . . .

Posts like this make me want to escape to the Lounge.

Originally posted by dara678
I don't know why people believe this stuff. Yeah, maybe only 14% of Asians live in technical poverty, but most Asian families aren't as privileged as you think. My parents came to America with nothing in their pockets, and they had to fight their way up. No, they weren't well educated either; in fact, most of the Asian families I know had to struggle in the early years of their children's lives. However, most of those children have grown up to be very successful (in fact almost all are pursuing graduate degrees). So I think that it is a false generalization to say that Asians who emigrated to the US were well-educated and priviliged. That is simply not true. Have you ever visited Chinatown in LA, Chicago, or San Francisco? Ask the owners of those restaurants and shops. I bet you anything that a majority of the children are in college or have completed college.

Another reason why you may think that the Asians who emigrated are self-selected is because of the U.S.'s immigration policy in the 1970s, which recruited engineers, doctors, and professors from China and other countries. However, you must keep in mind that Asian does not equal Chinese. Many Thai, Cambodian, Laos, and Vietnamese descendants do not have that background, because the U.S. did not recruit from these countries. Therefore it is a myth that most Asians come from well-educated parents.

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I posted that 14% of Asians live in poverty because it is greater than the percentage of Caucasians that live in poverty. I am agreeing with you on the point that not all Asian families fit the model minority myth of being wealthy, hard working, and well educated. However, there are reasons why Asians have, as a group, done better than Blacks and it has to do with, in part, the education, motivation, etc of Asian immigrants. I never meant to imply that ALL Asian immigrants came with college degrees and pockets full of gold, but a substantial number did.. For example, 59% of Asian immigrants in Houston have college degrees. I am also aware that the US relaxed immigration restrictions to allow physicians, engineers, etc to emigrate to the US. That is how most of my family got here And that influx of highly skilled Asian immigrants lends credence to my original claim that many Asians who came to the US came with the tools needed to succeed here(with the notable exceptions of refugees from Cambodia, Vietnam, Laos, etc). Link

To answer your other question, no, I have not been to Chinatown in LA, San Fran or Chicago. But I am glad that the children of those successful entrepreneurs are going to college

From Time magazine:

According to the Center for Immigration Studies, only 3% of Indian arrivals lack a high school education, and 75% of working Indians are college graduates. (For immigrants from China, the figure is 55%.) Says Rajini Srikanth, a professor of Asian-American studies at the University of Massachusetts: "What we got were people who already came blessed with all kinds of valuable baggage." In many cases, the Indian schools that newcomers had attended were as good as or better than many of their U.S. counterparts.

Thus, the poster who implied that many Asians (especially Indians) come to America representing the cream-of-the-crop of their countries was exactly right. Although it is impossible to say that all Asians fit this mold, the vast majority seem to. Hence why there is a hugely overrepresented number of Indian and other Asian medical students in this country. Their parents were the best role models of success.

IM WHITE BUT I DONT HAVE SUPPORTIVE PARENTS AND GREW UP IN A NEGATIVE ENVIRONMENT. THE ONLY REASON WHY IM SUCCEEDING CAUSE BUBBA BE WORKIN HIS ASS OFF TO MAKE IT TO MED SCHOOL!




WHERE R ALL THE GEORGIA FOLKS?

please...
this thread is merely a response to the why African American succeed thread. Why not intellectually debate Affirmative Action or do something productive rather than bask in other's past glory and self-indulge in your hubris.

THAN ENLIGHTEN US WITH YOUR INSIGHT WGU ...PLEASE

Originally posted by deez4life
From Time magazine:

According to the Center for Immigration Studies, only 3% of Indian arrivals lack a high school education, and 75% of working Indians are college graduates. (For immigrants from China, the figure is 55%.) Says Rajini Srikanth, a professor of Asian-American studies at the University of Massachusetts: "What we got were people who already came blessed with all kinds of valuable baggage." In many cases, the Indian schools that newcomers had attended were as good as or better than many of their U.S. counterparts.

Thus, the poster who implied that many Asians (especially Indians) come to America representing the cream-of-the-crop of their countries was exactly right. Although it is impossible to say that all Asians fit this mold, the vast majority seem to. Hence why there is a hugely overrepresented number of Indian and other Asian medical students in this country. Their parents were the best role models of success.

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I totally agree with both deez and vivekap that many of the Asians who have immigrated in the past 10 years or so have college degrees. I guess what I didn't make clear is that I was talking about our parents' generation, the ones that were born in Asia, immigrated 30 years ago, and gave birth to offspring in America. We are the second-generation of Asian-Americans, so to speak, and it was my impression that many of our parents had to work hard in so-called "blue-collar" jobs to get where they are. But yes, it is noticeable that most Asians who immigrate now -- especially science TAs, for some reason -- are very well-educated.

every asian person i know is smart as hell! my fellow asian premed student buddies/tutors are a genius when it comes to science.

Originally posted by bubbajones
THAN ENLIGHTEN US WITH YOUR INSIGHT WGU ...PLEASE

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like I said go do something productive to yourself rather than destructive

if you want to debate AA, see
http://www.studentdoctor.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=770691#post770691

im not doing anything destructive

Even the Asians that immigrate here as poor refugees like the Vietnamese do much better than middle class african americans. I don't believe the point that asians and east indians come here already well off is a valid point. The truth is asians just plain work harder in academics and their culture stresses hard work and education more. The down side is that asians aren't as good entertainers or athletes. I love the work ethic of asians.

Some of these white-washed asians are starting to slack off though.

Originally posted by Sage144

Comments: This is such an outrageous thread, it makes me want to vomit.

re: (1), Not particular to Asians. "Encouraging parents" are not a culturally specific characteristic.

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You miss the point here. Nowhere does mecute say that encouraging parents are a "culturally specific characteristic." Look simply at the words stated and not on your personally-injected implications. mecute simply states that "encouraging parents" are a factor that helps AA students succeed. Even if "encouraging parents" are not particular to Asians, it does not mean that a majority of AA parents are not encouraging ones. Can you prove that most AA students do NOT have encouraging parents? If not, then move on...

Originally posted by Sage144

re: (2) hard-work and competition are AMERICAN and not Asian values. A great work-ethic can be viewed as predominately an Asian characteristic more than other cultures, however, you may be overlooking the potent downfalls of working all the time. SO many work work work work in order to succeed, and if success is based on academic merit, then great. But, most people would view success as a function of having a great social life in good balance with education, etc. , and I can't say that those values are well represented in the Asian community.

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Again, I am forced to believe that you have let your angry emotions get the better of you in this judgement, and again you have missed the point. To review what you just stated... "hard work and competition [are] NOT Asian values." Who is to say that??? Do you have first-hand experience living in an Asian society? Also who is to say that "most people" would view success as a function of having a great social life in good balance with education, etc.? Not only is success subjective, but it also depends on the context of the kind of environment in which those who pursue it live. Even if everyone were to agree with your idea of success, there would still be disagreement as to what that balance should be.

Even if we didn't go there, mecute was simply saying that Asian culture is founded upon hard work and competition. If you have ever taken courses in the sociology and history of Asian cultures such as India, China, Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Singapore, etc etc etc., I am completely baffled as to how you can muster up the audacity to make such an obviously spiteful and ignorant claim as this.

Added to this is your slap in the face saying that such a "successful" balance of social life and academic achievement is not well represented in the Asian community. You can't say that you see this, huh? I don't know where you've been looking, but I'm sure it was an isolated glance, and so I can't see this as anything but a racist comment. It would be akin to my visiting the worst Detroit slum and saying I couldn't see values of community and good citizenship in African Americans. That's just crazy. Would you agree that most of those who successfully make it into medical school or into a top university in the US are well-adjusted well-rounded individuals who excel in academics, extracurricular activities, and have a high level of social and leadership skills? If so... see the Chronicle of Higher Education article by Kursanow:

"Asian Americans, though only 4 percent of the nation's population, account for nearly 20 percent of all medical students. Forty-five percent of Berkeley's freshman class, but only 12 percent of California's populace, consists of Asian-Americans."

Originally posted by Sage144

re: (4). Conformity = Success? I don't understand

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Let me remind you of what exactly mecute stated to help clear things up for you. "4.) Proud people who do not want to be treated differently than others, and in doing so conforms to the majority of societal ideals in which they live in." Perhaps mecute could have made this a tiny bit more clear. Essentially, AA usually, mostly do not seek favorable treatment. Immigrant Asians may come to this country disadvantaged, but as a proud people, they expect to work as hard as those that they see as having risen to success in this country do. They CONFORM to the very "American values" (mecute's "societal ideals") you stated above that they envisioned--hard work and competition. Prejudices against and ignorant degenerating overgeneralizations about Asians abound... the nerdy math genius Asian, the passive quiet Asian, that weird-looking weird-smelling doesn't-look-like-me Asian, etc. Does the discriminiation get them down? Most likely no. Because deep inside burn the dreams of what they came here for. Besides, success is the best revenge, and they don't need some belittling helping hand they didn't work for to get up that ladder.

Originally posted by Sage144

re: (5). Have you been to JAPAN? All I have to say: The Japanese OBSESSSION with American pop-culture ad nauseum.

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Ok, perhaps you have a point with this one, without even having to mention that mean-spirited remark about the Japanese. The idolizing of superstars in music, movies, and pro sports is a widespread occurrence that I don't see as predominant or absent in any particular culture. But, since there aren't all that many AA idols in music, movies, or professional sports for AA's to look up to in American culture anyway, who do they see as similar to themselves that they can emulate? Their uncle the surgeon; their family friend the corporate lawyer; their many cousins in medical schools; their older sister the journalist; their aunt the university professor; their dad the PhD-holding engineer.

Unrelatedly... It's interesting that you talk about the so-called Japanese obsession with American pop-culture. As the richest country in the world, the US can and does churn out what seems to be the highest percentage of over-inflated celebrities for all to gawk at. The US can practically cram these unavoidable juggernauts down everyone else's throats along with the implicated one-sided ideals of beauty and attractiveness that they come with. It's not a surprise what happened to the Japanese, but the "obsession" you speak of is rapidly on the decline, and the Japanese have their own distinct pop culture that they have successfully managed to infiltrate into the American scene. Sanrio, sushi, martial arts, zen gardens, anime, etc. Heck, American children were crazy obsessed with the power rangers at one point.

Originally posted by Sage144

re: (6) This is BS. I have no idea what you are trying to say.

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Not surprising. mecute originally stated, "Consistently rising average test scores and gpas at or near the top of the population every year, and as a result an ever-rising bar of which to measure ourselves by." I may not have the data to back up the scores/numbers claim, but I believe it is true, and unless you can provide data to refute it, I will continue to laugh at your cluelessness.

Originally posted by Sage144

Your post is the most idiotic ones I think I've ever read in this forum. You should be embarrassed.

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Your final comments simply provide additional demonstration of your lack of tact, immaturity, and outright ignorance. Please think before you post.

"I don't believe the point that asians and east indians come here already well off is a valid point."


the reason it seems that the work ethic is stressed so much over there is because 80 percent of the Asian populous lives in conditions many notches below the poverty line in the US. poor, uneducated asians rarely get the chance to come here; it's mostly the post-docs, engineers, and programmers that get student visas and settle here for a chance to use their intelligent minds to escape the rampant poverty that surrounds them at home. in india, this phenomenon is known as the "indian brain drain." it's documented.

it'd be totally unfair to same one race is innately superior at intellectual activity than another race. for example, say we transplant the top students at american universities into the workforce in china. it would appear, quite misleadingly, that americans are just better workers than the chinese. that is not the case. the work ethic that is part of the transplant culture is ingrained individually. now imagine the american transplants reproducing amongst each other, creating a seemingly superior group of kids in china.

in a few generations, i believe the asian american superiority will slowly die out. as asians get complacent, so will our work ethic and drive to succeed that our parents innately possess. you can actually see this happening in high schools across america, where most second-generation asian males are more interested in
break-dancing and souping up imports than making straight A's.

deez

The Asians that emigrated to the US were/are self-selected meaning that the many of the Asians who came to the US were already educated, wealthy by their country's standards, and extremely motivated.

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Not to put a damper on your argument, but it's complete BS. My grandparents after being released from Manzanar internment camp like the 110,000 other Japanese-Americans wrongfully imprisoned during WWII left with NOTHING Their businesses had been sold and their housing taken and then sold. Before WWII, SF was the nexus of Japanese-American culture, but it was taken and never returned. Which is why LA has now become such. My grandparents relocated to a mining town in UT and ran a boarding house for miners. My grandparents were born in the US, but had been educated in Japan prior to their return to the US and subsequent internment. Hence, they left camp with little english and no money. My grandmother is still quite bitter towards the US government from that time. Yet, my uncle still earned his PhD from Harvard and my father became a professor of econ. It wasn't their affluence or excellent academic background that earned them these stations it was dedication and a supportive family environment.

My good friend from sf, hopefully, i could get him to post came to this country from Taiwan at age 11 speaking no english and lived in a low-income african american neighborhood in florida. In fact he learned english in a black school. His parents at the time were attending school in that area. He would attend Harvard as an undergrad and his bro Yale. Once again, they didn't start in that neighborhood bc they were rolling in dough, but bc that's all they could afford.

They saw education and achievement as the best way to improve their lives and they went for it.

My family is full of people who moved into professional careers attending 'elite schools' and all of them did this from starting point of losing everything they had during WWII. It's not their money nor their exclusive backgrounds. It was passion and dedication.

Mecute, le me ax yu sumthun....why yu dissn Ebonics?

Kidding aside, your on the mark. Asians as a whole work there a$$ off. I have had study groups with members of all backgrounds and some good friends of various colors. Some kicked my butt in certain classes, but I was stronger in others. Stereotyping can be dangerous, but we cannot deny the accomplishments of sub sectors of the population.

I know that my success depends on me...not looking for the government or some adcom to grant special favors based on my ethnicity. I respect performance. Kudos to all that achieve it.

Personally, I'd like to see all this X-American crap end if you are a citizen. Not to lose touch with past heritage, but to show equality. No favors please. I guarantee that people will not look at an Asian Doc and wonder if they made it into school on the quota program.

Originally posted by bubbajones
im not doing anything destructive

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Evidently you're not my intended audience then.


Doing big rather than talking big is something my Asian parents taught me to do. I think this thread came out of the need to talk big about Asians, it isn't the essence of why individuals do well

People who work hard deserve praise and rewards. It's becasue Asians do so well in school that even whites have to raise their performance to keep up. It's a good thing that we raise the bar so that everyone strives to go higher. I believe afirmative action is still necessary but unfortunately it lowers the bar. I wish people look at what asian society does that makes their children do so well at school.

Maybe it's culture. I worked with some brillient (black) pHd's at 3M. I got the impression they were raised diferently though. They were real corny, dressed like the Lamda Lamda Lamda guys (aside from booger and the hairy dude) and couldn't shoot hoops to save thier lives. Look at Dave Robinson (my favorite NBA player). He plays piano, got a 1520 on the SAT and went to the naval academy and didn't have a career in b-ball until he grew 7 inches in college. Not an ounce of ghetto in that guy (real corny).

Most of the real smart black guys I knew at RIT kept it quite. One guy I played hoops with all the time had a 4.0 and I never knew until right before graduation. In general, I don't think black culture encourages or supports acedemic sucess. Those who are capable don't often bother for fear of ridicule. I'm not talking out my a$$, there have been a number of studies done on this. It's tragic.

I have this friend I met in Org II. He was actually from Africa and had come here for education. He is the first in his family and said he was middle class in his country.

Super smart. Didn't have to take the final b/c he had an A without the points. Really amazed me, although he had prior exposure via 2 years of med school in his country. He came here and had to back up of couple of steps.

He was not shy about his intelligence, but not boastful either. You could tell by the questions he asked he was smart.

Different from what is described above. In HS, smart wasn't the in crowd, so I tried to keep it low key. I never performed poorly for acceptance though.

Ortho, it's the same as what's posted above. Your Africal friend did not come for the black american culture. Plus, there are always excetions.

Originally posted by mecute
I'm gonna call BS on this one. I know for a fact that the majority of the Southern Asian people, including Vietnamese, Laos, Cambodian asians that are here in the US are a result of the Vietnam War and came over are REFUGEES with nothing but the shirts on their backs and lived on government assistance for the first parts of their new lives here in the states. The year was 1975 so that was almost 30 years ago which is not a long time to be in the states. Also, I'd also wager the majority of the Chinese here in the US are a result of the importing of Chinese labor to work the railroads who have been in this country for since the 1800s so they have been here a long time and had enough time to expand their numbers. You are talking about the asians who have come over AFTER the last big wave of immigrant refugees (that came over as a result of the Vietnam war), in which case the "self-selected" asians that you see are few in number, which show up as the result of study abroad experiences to the US.

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The only point I was trying to make is that there is a Model Minority Myth about Asians that says that ALL Asians are intelligent, hardworking, wealthy. This myth is rooted, in part, by the number of Asians who came to the US already educated, and/or wealthy and motivated (I define self-selected as those who chose to come to America, slaves did not have that choice.). I did acknowledge refugees from Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, etc as a notable exception in an earlier post.

I am saying there is a Model Minority is a MYTH because not all Asians fit the steretype. In fact most don't! I've posted data from previous censuses that clearly show that Asians earn less than comparably educated Caucasians and Blacks. The poverty rate amongst Asians is HIGHER than the poverty rate among Caucasians.

I am posting this because I've heard the argument, "Asians have succeeded in the US, why can't blacks? It must be because they don't work as hard." It is not fair to even compare immigrant Asians who chose to come to the US to blacks whose ancestors who didn't. However, as other posters have anecdoteally (sp) noted, African immigrants they have know have often succeeded in school and came from supportive background-which is true of most immigrants.

Triangulation: Your family still CHOSE to come here. And while they did have their businesses, houses, etc taken away from I am curious as to in what condition they arrived into the US. At the very least they arrived in the US with a lot of motivation to succeed and I would guess some degree of success in Japan if not necessarily a lot of education and money (which you never stated they did not have) DN oops.

Wow, mecute. I'm relieved to know not all Asian Americans are clueless. After seeing all the Asian American student groups advocating the affirmative action decision at Michigan U., I was saddened by how much they wanted to shoot themselves in the foot.

Then again, African Americans are shooting themselves in the foot with affirmative action anyway. Over time, as more lower quality applicants are admitted on non-merit-based criteria and more non-minority and Asians have to work harder to get into professional schools, what will be the quality of the graduates based on the color of their skin? I sadly predict that the general populace will begin to form their own prejudices based on their encounters. If people start to associate African American professionals with lower-quality work, it will only be a detriment to their whole movement. No one wants to wonder whether their physician got into med school / residency mostly based on skin color, but it may just become another reflex of human nature.

Natalie03,

I believe that you and mecute are the clueless ones. Do you know why many Asians support AA even if it doesn't help them? The truth is it is okay to support things that don't benefit you! Try being a little bit generous, that's how physicians are suppose to be like.

In California Asians make up over 60% of UCI, 40% of UCLA and Berkeley. YET in graduate school they make up less than 20%. The reason is there is bias against asians moving beyond college. In medical school in CA asians have a lower acceptance rate than whites or blacks. The fact is don't let the white recruit you into believing that this country is fair to minorities. You are asian and you'll always be a minority. They are trying to divide and conquer! The glass ceiling exist and it is placed above asians all the time. Don't be naive and think that without oversight the whites will give you a fair chance. We all need affirmative action, even asians, because at least it addresses the social injustices done to all minorities in this country.

I can say with utmost confidence that this post has missed the real question.

Yeah, for the most part, most Asian type families have a rigid patriarchal demanding family structure that fosters competition and success, but in my time I have seen plenty of lazy asians going through life. On the same note I have seen plenty of lazy white, african-american and latino/a types.

Mecute, your thread fails to address the fundamental issues in the case of Nature vs. Nurture.

Indeed the Asian community demands hardwork and dedication (Nurture), but what about the person who has an inborn (Nature) personality that is easy going that creates friction with that type of demanding society. What about the White-American 1950's ideals (Nurture) of relaxing and taking it easy, does that really apply today, no, because there are white, african-american, hispanic... guys/gals that are neurotic and OCD enough to want to push the limits for their own sake, not because of societal pressures.

In other words, to say that nurture is the only cause for asian-american success is only one part of the puzzle; the other part being in born nature in the individual. Success is also very relative. Is working hard (60 hours) and having a family while making 6-figures a year considered success? What about the mid-western WASP family that lives on a subsistence life-style, are they successful?

I believe that success should = happiness.

I think that is what this thread should really be about. Are asian american families as happy and cohesive as white american, african american.... hispanic latino/a ...

If so, then great... if not... then societal constructs (Nurture) need to be adapted to the personalities of individuals (Nature).

Rant = Off
Flaming = Start

Post over...

mecute..i'd LOVE to see the study where there was a university that admitted black students at a rate 1000x more than white or asian students. Was this a HBCU? Otherwise, I think you are either lying or sadly mistaken on what you read. Please enlighten us all. Given your other ignorant posts, I'd prefer to read with my own eyes...


Actually alot of people can not afford to go to college, even their state ones. Simply put, if you knew anything more than what you were spouting about 'financial aid' you would know that there are annual and aggregate limits for ALL state loans..not to mention the scarcity of grants. Alot of schools also work on a 'first come first serve' basis. And last i checked, my mother was just barely making the income tax cut off date in april, which used to ALWAYS put us behind in the financial aid process. Thank goodness I went to Princeton and they always had a lil more money to spare AND recognized me by name...as opposed to a NUMBER as it is in most state schools. Also if a parent has not been to college, which is most often the case in black families, they know very very little about the financial aid process. Certainly my older sister going to upenn was the guinea pig...by the time it was my turn, we knew A WHOLE LOT more which still didn't leave me with out having to get a FULL TIME job. Finally, you are also assuming people don't have bills outside of just college. I contributed quite alot to my household...my income was ESSENTIAL in that were i NOT working, not only would college not have been paid, and me having to leave for financial reasons, my younger siblings and mother would not have had a placce to live either. Is this what you are referring to as "screwing up having to support someone?" Don't oversimplify **** just because its easy to. And don't talk about people in such a general manner unless youhave walked in their shoes. Have you ever been in a "Housing Project"....these are the warzones in most of the ghettos of America. Not necessarily a 'benefit' to the needy...in most cases, cops are just as corrupt as the criminals in this area. Have you ever been on unemployment insurance? You do realize there is a minimum base pay needed to qualify, in addition to a minimum time period...and this all varies from state to state..with NJ being the highest weekly check one can be eligible for at 475/week. You speak like you know something and I suspect you are truly clueless.

50 years looking at american history is really NOT that much time at all. You do realize that 50 years ago the south was still segregated...and black people being denied this "free education". 30 years ago, Princeton had just graduated the FIRST class with women in it. Looking at this 2-3 generations in that time..the first would be my grandparents...one who had an 8th grade education and the other who got a highschool diploma after have grown children already. My mother(2) in theory would only need to get a highschool diploma to "be doing better than her parents". And then myself and my siblings (3) are all in college..but it is still the first generation in college. Furthermore, Free education is of no use if its not good or up to par. Great, I can get a free education at my zone school in Brooklyn, where there are no books, substitute teachers who don't care mostly fill the rooms, and i am walking through a metal detector to get INTO the building. I agree that the black community as a whole needs to work on utilizing GOOD things that are available to them. This is the work I do....working with United Way...and various community/human service oriented non profs. however, YOU are most certainly not in a position, considering you have never lived it, to trivialize the experiences of black people today, furthermore to act like current hardships don't exist. Most people get motivation from their parents....or grandparents..and alot of black folks' grandparents and parents have experienced quite a bit of shady(which is putting it mildly) things when it comes to "equality" in this country....they are rightfully jaded and in many cases this does pass along to the youth of today. Furthermore, those same youth can see plain as day that things haven't changed THAT much. I get followed around in almost every store i walk into in the uppity Princeton area..despite having a degree. My boyfriend has been stopped by NJ state troopers simply because he is driving a nice car...and we aren't going to talk about how many times a white woman has passed and clutched her purse. It is often difficult to remain hopeful and not turn destructive. Even though I don't choose to be, I can see where the anger is coming from. You ignorance is simply because you don't live this everyday. Therefore, I find it completely rude and obnoxious that you continue to be so judgemental on these boards.... I sincerely hope you get your act together before your true colors are shown in an adcom interview...

Originally posted by vivekap2007
The only point I was trying to make is that there is a Model Minority Myth about Asians that says that ALL Asians are intelligent, hardworking, wealthy. This myth is rooted, in part, by the number of Asians who came to the US already educated, and/or wealthy and motivated (I define self-selected as those who chose to come to America, slaves did not have that choice.). I did acknowledge refugees from Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, etc as a notable exception in an earlier post.

I am saying there is a Model Minority is a MYTH because not all Asians fit the steretype. In fact most don't! I've posted data from previous censuses that clearly show that Asians earn less than comparably educated Caucasians and Blacks. The poverty rate amongst Asians is HIGHER than the poverty rate among Caucasians.

I am posting this because I've heard the argument, "Asians have succeeded in the US, why can't blacks? It must be because they don't work as hard." It is not fair to even compare immigrant Asians who chose to come to the US to blacks whose ancestors who didn't. However, as other posters have anecdoteally (sp) noted, African immigrants they have know have often succeeded in school and came from supportive background-which is true of most immigrants.

Triangulation: Your family still CHOSE to come here. And while they did have their businesses, houses, etc taken away from I am curious as to in what condition they arrived into the US. At the very least they arrived in the US with a lot of motivation to succeed and I would guess some degree of success in Japan if not necessarily a lot of education and money (which you never stated they did not have) DN oops.

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I don't want to be rude, but Vive, you don't know what you're talking about. Seems strange to compare the success of asians and blacks based on the historical origins of blacks and the present day immigration of educated asians. Here are the facts for you: The established asians in this country came not as educated intellectuals, but as day laborers, miners, and railroad workers. The first transcontinental railroad (the joining of the Union Pacific and Central Pacific railways) was built largely on the backs of imported chinese laborers. The Gold Rush of 1849 led to a large influx of asian immigrants attracted to the "Golden Mountain." These were poor, uneducated immigrants coming to dig up shiny rocks, not geologists working on sedimentary rate flow. While it may be the case today that many new immigrants are educated, historically, the vast majority of asian immigrants were not. The model minority is perpetuated not due to the "self selection" of asian immigrants in coming to America, but by the incredible hardwork shown by imported chinese labor - they were paid next to nothing, unable to speak english and therefore unassuming around their white supervisors. This became such a problem that the Scott and Geary Acts were instituted late in the 1800's to stop all asian immigration. I'd advise you to get some historical perspective before making speculative claims - blacks being brought over as slave labor is well known in our society, but importation of cheap chinese labor or the indentured servitude of a vast number of whites is not. So, in all, its completely unfair that you say asians do better now because they come here better prepared and blacks don't because they came here as slaves.

We need to stop lumping every one into groups and start seeing each other as individuals. I get sick and tired of having to answer for what another black did or did not do. There are plenty of blacks who are successful because of their intellectual abilities and not there athletic prowess. There are plenty of blacks who are hard working members of this society and who are not lazy, shifty, dumb-asses looking for AA to help them every step of the way. No one group is immune to the "bad apples". We all have them. On another note, the med school I will be attending will never have a majority of blacks in any class. The second year class has the most blacks ever in the history of this school (24). There will be only 16 in my upcoming class (out of 180). 11 use to be the magic #. So, even though AA may be getting very few blacks into med school, the percentages are too low to even warrant so many discussions about it. The only person that you need to be worrying about is yourself. If you have the #'s, the LOR'S, the personality, etc., then you should get in. Usually, the only people that I hear complaining are the ones who have not even taken the MCAT or who have no acceptances. I guess everyone needs a scapegoat for their shortcomings. I have not seen too much of this kind of bickering in the Allopathic forum. Then again, I could be mistaken. Good luck with getting in!!

Asian kids also have the advantage of the Tiger Fighting Style.

Originally posted by mecute
1.) Supporting Parents who encourage them
to commit suicide if they fail.

2.) Culture that is founded upon hard work and competition and amputated fingers

3.) Culture that does not believe in outward protests of unfair treatment, rather an innate desire to prove ourselves to overcome the unfair treatment
Don't have a smart ass comment to add to this one.

4.) Proud people who do not want to be treated differently than others, and in doing so conforms to the majority of societal ideals in which they live in.

5.) Youth culture that idolizes persons with success and power through higher education, not superstars in music, movies, or professional sports. That's because asia has no superstars in sports or music. But that Jackie Chan is one bad mofo.

6.) As a result of 1-5, Consistently rising average test scores and gpas at or near the top of the population every year, and as a result an ever-rising bar of which to measure ourselves by, whether by choice, or by the heightened expectations of parents and asian society.

Would a white person please start a thread called "Why Caucasian Americans Succeed?" I'd like to see what it says. We've already heard from the African Americans on this matter.

Click to expand...

This is stupid. I know tons of asian kids that sit around and smoke weed and watch Dr. Phil all day. So you are wrong, Asian kids don't succeed, neither do black kids or white kids or any other demographic. Individuals succeed. Regardless of how you define success there are individuals in all populations that succeed as well as fail.

Who knows what the point of the "why black kids succeed" thread was. I think it was to show that we all need the same things in order to succeed.

Originally posted by mecute
1.) Supporting Parents who encourage them
*5th generation college graduate
Mom - 2 college degrees, Dad - 3 college degrees

2.) Culture that is founded upon hard work and competition
The great Kings and Queens of Eqypt come to mind as does people like Dr. Cornell West, Dr. Alvin Poussiant, and many , many other URM's

3.) Culture that does not believe in outward protests of unfair treatment, rather an innate desire to prove ourselves to overcome the unfair treatment When I was called the 'N'" word while a freshman at the University of Florida I made up my mind then that I would succeed. With 3 college degrees including one from the university of florida and currently working on the forth, I'd say I have this criteria well covered.

4.) Proud people who do not want to be treated differently than others, and in doing so conforms to the majority of societal ideals in which they live in. Sounds exactly like what Martin Luther King was trying ot say. Too bad he was killed by a racist for expressing this ideal

5.) Youth culture that idolizes persons with success and power through higher education, not superstars in music, movies, or professional sports. My mother's idol growing up was Florence Nightengale. She became a nurse. Mine was Nathaniel Hale and one day I'll be a Physician/Scientist. Next year, I'm going to be Maid of Honor in a wedding soon where every single african american bridesmaid either has the letters DR. in front of her name or is working on it! So I'd guess you can say that my freinds are big followers of folks like Dr. Carson and NOT Dr. J or Dr.Dre!

6.) As a result of 1-5, Consistently rising average test scores and gpas at or near the top of the population every year, and as a result an ever-rising bar of which to measure ourselves by, whether by choice, or by the heightened expectations of parents and asian society. If what URM's on these boards post is true, the average GPA for URM's is ~3.7 and the average MCAT is over 30. That's pretty good considering many of us weren't able to take Kaplan. Just imagine what those MCAT scores could have been with a prep course or two


I guess successful african americans ain't all that different from successful asian americans afterall!!


Mecute, maybe you should educate yourself about african americans because it appears that you don't know a dam thing about any successful african american's!!!!

Originally posted by MDTom

I think that is what this thread should really be about. Are asian american families as happy and cohesive as white american, african american.... hispanic latino/a ...

Click to expand...

About the happiness = success bit. If happiness = success then success = happiness, right?
If Asians define success as having a great house, making a six figure salary, and sending their kids off to ivys, then why WOULDN'T they be happy?

I think that most Asian families are quite cohesive, but in general, the Asian community is less cohesive than white american, african american, hispanic/latinos. There's a certain sense of distrust between Asian people. I don't know what the cause is. It's just something I've picked up.

And now to take the thread in a totally different direction, my dormmate once told me that Asians are the new Jews of Germany. They're making money, they have good jobs, but they don't really have any political clout because as a group, they aren't that organised or cohesive. And I think this is a huge problem because we'd see a few cracks in that glass ceiling if Asians had an organisation like the NCAAP. Imagine if Asians lobbied against AA as much as other minorities lobbied for it (Not that I'm saying that's what we should do because I'm still on the fence on whether AA is still a good thing or not).

Now I have a question. Do you think AA benefit Asians or hurt Asians?