Why Asian American Students Succeed

[BananaSplit]

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And finally, why is this thread in pre-allo? What does it have to do with giving people tips/advice on how to get into med school?

 

[mecute]

Originally posted by pathdr2b
Originally posted by mecute
1.) Supporting Parents who encourage them
*5th generation college graduate
Mom - 2 college degrees, Dad - 3 college degrees

2.) Culture that is founded upon hard work and competition
The great Kings and Queens of Eqypt come to mind as does people like Dr. Cornell West, Dr. Alvin Poussiant, and many , many other URM's

3.) Culture that does not believe in outward protests of unfair treatment, rather an innate desire to prove ourselves to overcome the unfair treatment When I was called the 'N'" word while a freshman at the University of Florida I made up my mind then that I would succeed. With 3 college degrees including one from the university of florida and currently working on the forth, I'd say I have this criteria well covered.

4.) Proud people who do not want to be treated differently than others, and in doing so conforms to the majority of societal ideals in which they live in. Sounds exactly like what Martin Luther King was trying ot say. Too bad he was killed by a racist for expressing this ideal

5.) Youth culture that idolizes persons with success and power through higher education, not superstars in music, movies, or professional sports. My mother's idol growing up was Florence Nightengale. She became a nurse. Mine was Nathaniel Hale and one day I'll be a Physician/Scientist. Next year, I'm going to be Maid of Honor in a wedding soon where every single african american bridesmaid either has the letters DR. in front of her name or is working on it! So I'd guess you can say that my freinds are big followers of folks like Dr. Carson and NOT Dr. J or Dr.Dre!

6.) As a result of 1-5, Consistently rising average test scores and gpas at or near the top of the population every year, and as a result an ever-rising bar of which to measure ourselves by, whether by choice, or by the heightened expectations of parents and asian society. If what URM's on these boards post is true, the average GPA for URM's is ~3.7 and the average MCAT is over 30. That's pretty good considering many of us weren't able to take Kaplan. Just imagine what those MCAT scores could have been with a prep course or two


I guess successful african americans ain't all that different from successful asian americans afterall!!


Mecute, maybe you should educate yourself about african americans because it appears that you don't know a dam thing about any successful african american's!!!!

Maybe you should click on over to aamc.org and look at the average statistics of BLACK APPLICANTS AND MATRICULANTS.

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/famg6b2002a.htm

According to the AAMC the average black applicant in 2002 had an average mcat score of 21 and an average overall gpa of 3.15. The ones that GOT IN had an average mcat of 24.5 and overall gpa of 3.35. If you consider those numbers being close to your estimates of ~3.7 and "over 30" on the mcat, then you seriously need a reality check.

SUMMARY:

average black matriculant: 24.5 MCAT and 3.35 gpa

is considerably lower than:

average asian matriculant: 31 MCAT and 3.63 gpa
average white matriculant: 30 MCAT and 3.65 gpa

'Nuff said.

p.s. Most students in general cannot afford the Kaplan classes so don't consider yourself too unlucky compared to everyone else. I know I can't afford it, just like most everyone else I went to school with, black, white, and asian. Besides, most of the people scoring high that I know didn't need a class anyway.

 

[medicine2006]

Mecute you are a pompous windbag! Have you ever been treated by a black physician? They are great. But I guess if you ever had an emergency and the attending in the ER was black you'd rather die waiting for a white or asian physician! 😡

 

[exmike]

Originally posted by pathdr2b

2.) Culture that is founded upon hard work and competition
The great Kings and Queens of Eqypt come to mind as does people like Dr. Cornell West, Dr. Alvin Poussiant, and many , many other URM's
[/B]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the peoples of egypt not considered URMS? Aren't egyptians of aryan descent? You'd clump them in ethnically with middle easterners. The only thing URM about them is that they're on the same continent as sub-sahara african countries.

 

[mecute]

Originally posted by Ms. Dawson, DO
mecute..i'd LOVE to see the study where there was a university that admitted black students at a rate 1000x more than white or asian students.

My me it wasn't quite 1000x, but it was in the 100s. Here's the article.

http://www.chronwatch.com/featured/contentDisplay.asp?aid=3346


"The Ugly Facts About Affirmative Action in Practice"

Posted by Dr. Steven Plaut
Saturday, July 05, 2003



John Perazzo, writing in FrontPageMagazine, presents some startling--even ugly--facts about the realities of affirmative action in college admissions. Of course, the proponents of affirmative action don't care to address ''facts'' in the subjective atmosphere they have constructed to surround this issue. The head-long chase for diversity has totally subverted academic standards, which is what college used to be all about. Read on......

As a result of the Supreme Court?s recent rulings on affirmative action, schools will now discard any openly race-based point systems they may have formerly employed, while simultaneously continuing their longstanding practice of using totally subjective criteria to manipulate the racial composition of their student bodies as they wish?criteria like an applicant?s demonstration of such qualities as self discipline, civic pride, altruism, leadership, energy, perseverance, and generosity. Indeed just a few years ago, the highest-ranking members of our country?s legal-education establishment issued a joint press release explaining that ''personal statements from applicants, letters of recommendation, work experience, and the applicant?s prior success in overcoming personal disadvantage'' were all factors that should be considered in the admissions process. Obviously, such malleable, amorphous standards essentially amount to having no standards at all. So instead of being openly awarded 20 points for having dark skin, African Americans applying to the University of Michigan will now earn their extra credit by showing ''civic pride,'' ''energy,'' and an ability ''to overcome obstacles''?among which, of course, is the purportedly titanic obstacle of being black in America.



Justice O?Connor asserts that ''access'' to higher education ''must be inclusive of talented and qualified individuals of every race and ethnicity, so that all members of our heterogeneous society may participate in the educational institutions that provide the training and education necessary to succeed in America. . . . Effective participation by members of all racial and ethnic groups in the civil life of our nation is essential if the dream of one nation, indivisible, is to be realized.''



If we cut through the polite rhetoric, however, we are confronted with a mountain of truly disturbing facts. Consider the numerous, well-designed, recent studies conducted by the Washington, D.C.-based Center For Equal Opportunity (CEO), which powerfully demonstrate that the more competitive a school?s admissions standards are, the greater the degree of racial or ethnic preference we are likely to observe there. In the University of Washington?s (UW) 1995 freshman class, the raw admission rate for blacks was 96.6 percent, as compared to 78.5 percent for Asians and 74.4 percent for whites. These figures were in the precisely inverse order of the students? actual academic qualifications. For instance, black freshmen had scored 80 points lower than whites on the verbal SAT exam, and 140 points lower on the math SAT. In fact, the verbal and math SAT scores of black freshmen in the 75th percentile were roughly equivalent to the scores of whites in the 25th percentile; that is, black admittees who outscored three-fourths of all other blacks admitted to UW, scored only about as well as whites at the bottom one-fourth of all whites admitted to UW.



We mustn?t forget that these figures are not mere abstractions, but translate into large numbers of actual human beings who are denied admission to the school of their choice solely because of their skin color. Things don?t often get much uglier than that. All told, in 1995 UW rejected 912 whites and 164 Asians whose verbal SAT scores, math SAT scores, and high-school grades equaled or surpassed the median of blacks who were admitted. As has been demonstrated time and again, students who are admitted to a given school under lowered academic standards can be expected to struggle mightily to keep up with their peers who met the school?s normal admissions requirements. In general, there is a strong negative correlation between preference in the admissions process and graduation rates. At UW, the percentage of 1995 freshman who eventually graduated within six years was 70 percent for whites, 65 percent for Asians, and a mere 29 percent for blacks.



The story was similar at Washington State University that same year, where blacks were also admitted with academic qualifications far below those of their white and Asian peers. Black admittees scored about 70 points lower than whites on the verbal SAT, and 110 points lower on the math SAT. Predictably, the eventual graduation rates of those students were 44 percent for blacks and 61 percent for whites.



In the 1995 freshman class at the University of California at Irvine, the 75th percentile math SAT scores of blacks admitted were a remarkable 20 points lower than the corresponding scores of whites in the 25th percentile. UC Irvine actually rejected 1,516 Asians and 546 whites whose math SAT scores were higher than the median score for black enrollees, as well as 879 Asians and 637 whites whose verbal SAT scores were better than the black enrollee median. Not surprisingly, the graduation rate for that cohort of blacks was about 47 percent, as opposed to 68 percent for whites and 73 percent for Asians.



The situation at UC San Diego was so bad that CEO researchers commented, ''There are two distinct populations of enrollees at UCSD as measured by math SAT scores: African Americans and Hispanics on the one hand, and whites and Asian Americans on the other.'' The 75th percentile scores of black and Hispanic admittees in 1995 were roughly the same as the white and Asian 35th percentile scores. The graduation rates for blacks at UCSD during the 1990s hovered around 41 percent. For whites and Asians, the rates generally exceeded 70 percent.



Though blacks had by far the weakest academic qualifications in the University of Virginia?s (UV) 1999 freshman class, they were admitted at a much higher rate than white and Asian applicants, whose composite SAT scores were nearly 200 points higher. In that one year alone, fully 4,591 whites were rejected despite having higher test scores than the median black enrollee. Statistically, black applicants were an astonishing 111 times more likely to be admitted to UV than were whites with equivalent qualifications.



In the University of Michigan at Ann Arbor?s 1995 freshman class, whites and Asians (whose composite SAT median scores were 1250 and 1300, respectively) were accepted at significantly lower rates than blacks, whose median score was only 1020. A total of 1,090 whites and 297 Asians were rejected with better SAT scores than the median black admittee. The six-year graduation rate for blacks was 66 percent, as compared to 86 percent for Asians and 87 percent for whites. The odds of a black applicant with the same qualifications as a white applicant being offered admission to UM Ann Arbor was an incredible 173.7 to 1. The corresponding ratio at UM Dearborn was not nearly as high, though still very substantial at 36.5 to 1.



At North Carolina State in 1995, blacks were admitted at a slightly higher rate than whites and Asians, though their SAT scores were, on average, 210 points below those of Asians and 190 points below those of whites. A black applicant was statistically 177 times more likely to be accepted than a similarly qualified white applicant. At the University of North Carolina at Asheville, the degree of preference was not nearly as egregious, but nonetheless black applicants were 10 times likelier to be accepted than similarly qualified whites. At UNC Charlotte, the corresponding preference ratio in favor of black applicants was 8.37 to 1, and at UNC Wilmington 57.2 to 1.



At the University of Maryland Medical School in 2000, blacks with college grade-point-averages (g.p.a.) of B or B+ and Medical College Admissions Test scores in the bottom half of all test-takers had a 70 percent chance of admission; for whites and Asians of similar credentials, the chance was 2 percent. At our nation?s top law schools, blacks are admitted at 17 times the rate that a colorblind process would allow. At UCLA Law school in 1994, a black applicant with a college g.p.a. between 2.5 and 3.5, and a Law School Admissions Test score between 60 and 90, had a 61 percent chance of admission. The corresponding rates for similarly qualified Asians and whites were 7 and 1 percent, respectively.



The champions of affirmative action strive to put a happy face on all these facts by deluging us with bromides about the value of ''diversity'' and the need for ''equal access'' to educational opportunities. But in the end, we as a people must decide whether it serves society to perpetuate a policy that makes such an utter mockery of standards.

 

[pathstudent]

Thanks for posting messages from Racist Doctors that are completely out of touch with reality.

I hope MECUTE doesn't get into medical school

 

[medicine2006]

pathstudent i applaud your effort to fight the ignorant comments on SDN but I believe it's hopeless because these people are closed minded. Anytime I defend AA I get flamed.

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by exmike
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the peoples of egypt not considered URMS? Aren't egyptians of aryan descent? You'd clump them in ethnically with middle easterners. The only thing URM about them is that they're on the same continent as sub-sahara african countries.

So let me guess, your one of those folks that believe that Elizabeth Taylor playing the role of Cleopatra in the movies was historically correct?

Egyptians ARE african NOT middle eastern and like many other people of african decent, share blood lineages with other races. The last time I checked, Egypt was in Africa, right?

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by mecute
[B If you consider those numbers being close to your estimates of ~3.7 and "over 30" on the mcat, then you seriously need a reality check. average black matriculant: 24.5 MCAT and 3.35 gpa
[/B]

We all know you don't tread too well, but the stats I was quoting were those of the URM''s on SDN. Learrning to make proper inferences is a skill you may want to work on before you take the MCAT and apply to med school.

However, you pretty much glossed over my previous which isn't suprising.

 

[exmike]

Originally posted by pathdr2b
We all know you don't tread too well, but the stats I was quoting were those of the URM''s on SDN. Learrning to make proper inferences is a skill you may want to work on before you take the MCAT and apply to med school.

SDN is hardly a representative sample. Learning proper statistical methods is something you may want to work on before you apply to med school.

 

[nanosomic]

mecute,
This thread you started has nothing to do with African Americans, right? I thought so. I have noticed whenever you post or start a thread you have negative comments about African Americans and other URMS. It is not only nonsensical but useless to categorized all African American premeds as students with low mcats and gpa's. This assertion is far from the truth. As somebody points out, this thread and others like this have nothing to do with helping each other getting into med school. I volunteer in a clinic where Asian American and African American premeds volunteer and help each other without bashing each other. most of them do not like you. You are actually misrepresenting the majority of Asian Americans. I believe most of them do not share your useless comments.

 

[OrthoFixation]

mecute, like myself, respects PERFORMANCE not HANDOUTS AND DISCRIMINATION.

 

[missMD]

Since you do not respect handouts and discrimination then I'm sure that you don't respect the fact that minorities were barred from entering medicine and other well paying fields while whites were not. Therefore, they have the advantage for years to come with admissions and jobs. The most blatent example of this is the fact that children of alumni have an easier time getting in. If your race has built its wealth on the backs of slaves and the land of native americans then you cannot claim that you are not recieving a handout.

 

[exmike]

Originally posted by missMD
Since you do not respect handouts and discrimination then I'm sure that you don't respect the fact that minorities were barred from entering medicine and other well paying fields while whites were not. Therefore, they have the advantage for years to come with admissions and jobs. The most blatent example of this is the fact that children of alumni have an easier time getting in. If your race has built its wealth on the backs of slaves and the land of native americans then you cannot claim that you are not recieving a handout.

Interesting, I dont hear non-URMs complaining that they are categorically discriminated at Meharry, Morehouse, and Howard. Thats blatant

 

[missMD]

You should also find it interesting that these institutions where created because the other schools would not accept minorities. Thes few schools however do not make up for the more widespread institutionalized racism in the educational system. So the existance of historically black medical schools reflects not discrimination against whites but discrimination against blacks.

 

[OrthoFixation]

Originally posted by missMD
Since you do not respect handouts and discrimination then I'm sure that you don't respect the fact that minorities were barred from entering medicine and other well paying fields while whites were not. Therefore, they have the advantage for years to come with admissions and jobs. The most blatent example of this is the fact that children of alumni have an easier time getting in. If your race has built its wealth on the backs of slaves and the land of native americans then you cannot claim that you are not recieving a handout.

Lets see....did someone profit...likely. Both the buyer (white) and the seller (black). Why don't you ask the seller for a handout.

Did I profit? No. So why should I pay?

People without major money are barred from living in Monaco too. Have I requested a handout from them? No. If I want to live there, then I will make major money & move.

Children of alumni have easier time getting in? Probably so. Did I benefit from this? No, I am a first generation college graduate. Maybe I need someone to give me preferential treatment.

Sorry for how blacks, native american indians, and other oppressed people were treated. That is in the past. Live in the future. You cannot be held back forever due to history. If you have to work 10 times as hard to overcome, then you will be 10 times stronger a person...and you will win in the end.

You have a great philosopy that 2 wrongs make a right. OJ and his legal team must be your heroes.

Again, I respect PERFORMANCE irrelevant of race or history. Entitlement programs only make the recipients weak.

Some things from the past are good:
No work = no eat....want to be lazy, then be hungry.
I caught you with my stolen cow....bang, your dead.

I do believe in giving people a hand when they need it...but for a short time so they can get on their feet.

I guess your past injustices should be considered when setting the passing grade on USMLE.

 

[exmike]

Originally posted by missMD
You should also find it interesting that these institutions where created because the other schools would not accept minorities. Thes few schools however do not make up for the more widespread institutionalized racism in the educational system. So the existance of historically black medical schools reflects not discrimination against whites but discrimination against blacks.

Spoken like a true URM blame-gamer. First of all, why use the term "historically black"? thats just a PC term for discriminating against non-blacks. We don't call other colleges "historically white" do we? Second, its so convenient for you to justify black biased admissions at black medical schools by blaming discrimination. Again, just always point the finger rather than grtting your teeth and working with the cards you're dealt.

 

[missMD]

"You have a great philosopy that 2 wrongs make a right. OJ and his legal team must be your heroes--Orthofixation"
The first wrong was that talented people did not have a place to go to get their education. These schools were founded for them. Currently, the URM doctor is still underepresented. The non-URM doctor is overepresented. It is not wrong to attempt to correct this problem.
"Again, I respect PERFORMANCE irrelevant of race or history. Entitlement programs only make the recipients weak.--Orthofixation"
That is fine. Earlier I was trying to point out to you that non-URM's have also benefited from hand-outs. THe fact is that they are still benefiting from them. In order to see this we do need to understand the history of race.
"I do believe in giving people a hand when they need it...but for a short time so they can get on their feet.--Orthofixation"
We are not there yet. Racism still exists in our country.
"I guess your past injustices should be considered when setting the passing grade on USMLE.--Orthofixation"
For your information. I am not worried about passing the USMLE. Just incase you are implying that I would need such a thing. My MCAT scores and gpa are comparable to the national averages for whites and asians however, I understand that this gives me no right to look down my nose at others who do not have the same. I was born in England but through my study of African-American history I came to understand the situation. I can agree that it can seem confusing if you are ignorant of what is going on. I encourage you to actually study this to give you a deeper understanding of the issue.

 

[nanosomic]

Originally posted by exmike
Spoken like a true URM blame-gamer. First of all, why use the term "historically black"? thats just a PC term for discriminating against non-blacks. We don't call other colleges "historically white" do we? Second, its so convenient for you to justify black biased admissions at black medical schools by blaming discrimination. Again, just always point the finger rather than grtting your teeth and working with the cards you're dealt.

Howard and others refer to themselves as "historically Black colleges" not because they want to descriminate against non-Blacks but because they are proud of their history. As somebody points out, these institutions came about because of discrimination, thats blatant racism. I am not here to bash any race or ethnic group but some of you are totally missing the point.

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by exmike
SDN is hardly a representative sample. Learning proper statistical methods is something you may want to work on before you apply to med school.

As trained scientist and NCI trained cancer epidemiologist, I'll be sure to keep this in mind!!!!!!!


My point was to emphasize that "equally" qualified URM's really do exist

 

[OrthoFixation]

MissMD,

When I said:

I guess your past injustices should be considered when setting the passing grade on USMLE.

I didn't mean you personally, but the entire group sitting for the exams. You are missing my point. I am glad your scores are excellent. I bet you hate being looked down upon b/c people probably think you got in with lower numbers. This is the price for preferential treatment.

My point is this...When does it end? Let's say AA is fine for college entrance. Has this allowed you (a URM) the time to adjust to the college performance levels required?

No...then we will help you (a URM) into med school by lowering the bar (and potentially keep out a poor, hardworking white or asian kid) just so you can get in and be a role model.
Has this allowed you (a URM) the time to adjust to the med school performance levels required?

No...then we will again lower the bar by allowing you to pass USMLE at a lower score just so you can be a role model. Remember, you might have had a difficult upbringing. Has this allowed you (a URM) the time to adjust to the residency performance levels required?

No...then you guessed it, we will lower the required score for Board Certification. Remember, URM's had a disadvantaged past. How do I know? Because of skin color.


Now, doesn't this sound like a bunch of crap? My point is how long do you want a free ride or preferential treatment?

My upbringing sucked, but I'm not whining about it. I will just work to overcome......PERFORMANCE. That is what should be rewarded, not mediocrity.

 

[Califlower]

First I'd like to say that as an Asian American, I am ashamed that something like this have been allowed to post, of all places, at a premed forum. While I can see where mecute is coming from, the items listed in mecute's argument are a bit biased. I don't believe in superiority in any race above another; for every strength a certain group has, it has a weakeness, and vice versa.

Statements such as "Culture that is founded upon hard work and competition" leads me to think that other cultures must be "founded" on some other value, e.g. laziness and lack of motivation? I understand where the generalization is coming from, but that is not a valid reasoning behind the number of Asian American who are successful. For one thing, it is evident that a person, whether Asian or not, has probably seen this Asian American "success" in fields such as engineering, medicine, science, and etc. However, it would be a lot harder to name great writers(beyond Amy Tan), or a great journalist, or a sociologist, opera singer (just some examples -- don't hold me 100% to them!). I'm generalizing, but Asian parents tend to push their children in "secure" paths. The fields that bring in the money with job security. Computers, science, medicine are all fields that offer job security with ample pay, with a bit of social status. These are the things that our parents' generation needed most. Be it wars, IMF, political conflicts, or in search for a better life, our parents risked many things to get to where we are now, especially financial stability.

"Culture that does not believe in outward protests of unfair treatment, rather an innate desire to prove ourselves to overcome the unfair treatment" -- This is really a gray area. I believe that Asian societies impose this "value." As a person who spent a few years schooling in Korea, this is very true. As children, we are not taught to question authority or unfairness. We are taugh that getting over it through hardwork and silence is the only way to redeem yourself. Sexual harrassment/sexism in the US is a big issue; where I'm from, it's not. In Korea, just until the late 80's, a company picked their employees (women employees) by their physical appearance, rather than credentials or abilities. Each company had standards including minimum/maximum height and weight, among other things, and this was legal. In fact, major airlines in Korea still use this standard for the employment of stewardesses! Just the very fact that this type of thing is still going on after the turn of the millenium should tell you that there's something wrong with having mecute's proposed "innate desire to prove ourselves to overcome the unfair treatment." mecute is right; there isn't a plethora of asian groups clamouring to sue the Government for anything. However, that's not always a good thing. Any group, asian, disabled, black, whatever, should stand up for their rights, even if it means to challenge policies and laws set forth by universities, government, etc..

"Proud people who do not want to be treated differently than others, and in doing so conforms to the majority of societal ideals in which they live in." -- Again, not always a good thing. Conformity is not a thing valued by American society; in fact, conforming will probably hinder you from succeeding. I agree with indo on that a certain race, ethnicity, or groups do NOT succeed; the individual does.

"Youth culture that idolizes persons with success and power through higher education, not superstars in music, movies, or professional sports." Although there is a plethora of "shady" entertainers, but I don't feel that it's a bad thing to be a fan of musicians or actors/actresses, or sports heros. A good many of them work hard at what they do. Actresses like Angelina Jolie and Shirley Temple Black(UN ambassador) even worked with the UN. I'm sure Kobe Bryant's fame isn't derived from throwing around an orange ball a couple of times -- I believe that hard work is behind it. What about Bill Gates? He dropped out of Harvard during his first year, if I'm not mistaken -- much of his success is due to his talents and how he cultivated it. It is OK to admire people who work hard and succeed -- it won't turn you into a "American Idols"-watching couch potato, I promise. I don't think that Asian American "youth culture" idolizes "superstars" any more or less than any other group.

I am proud of my heritage, and I'm glad many of my fellow Asian Americans are succeeding. Good for them! But we live in a politically sensitive society. This type of thread will start cross fires. Just my two cents. I apologize if I sound spiteful -- I didn't mean to. 😛

 

[Ms. Dawson DO]

Ok Let me ask a question for those stat people out there...cause I don't claim to be. But if 3 persons apply for something and 3 people get in...that would be 100% right? And if 100 people apply for something and only 50 get in...that would be 50% right? Now is 50 still a significantly higher number than 3?

I guess I am confused because first Mecute claimed 1000x..but then retracted. Then I tried to understand the article that was spouting ALOT of numbers...but never once gave indication to the total number of black applicants...Just percentages. We do agree, being test takers that it is easier to get 3 out of 3 questions right than 100 out of 100? Also we do agree that in experimental trials..it probably easier to get 3 out of 3 rats to do a maze than 100 out of 100....and it would probably be more powerful to put in a lab paper that 100% of the rats completed maze perfectly (n=100) rather than (n=3). I say this to say that percentages mean very little or actually can be misconstrued when the raw numbers aren't put with them. So while I was reading this article and they are talking about percentage of blacks accepted vs whites vs asians...I am steadily wondering how many people actually applied. Furthermore, I know they probably have this information simply because they can tell us RAW number of white and asian students rejected. Does anyone else think its kind of odd to leave out that number? Or does that point to the REAL problem to begin with?

Of course this works on the flip side with graduation rates in 6 years. Technically, with smaller numbers, it should be easier for blacks to achieve close to 100% graduation rates in 6 years. At the same time...we also know that getting one wrong on a test of three questions...is 33% of the grade. Meaning it is just as easy to make significant jump from 100% to 67% with a smaller group. For me, I would love to know WHY...ie are there any studies that evaluate the reasons behind people stopping their studies. I have read articles that speculate the MAIN reason being financial reasons...but no real studies and I am curious about that as well. It would be great to know if people didn't graduate because they got kicked out for academic reasons...or if this is just yet another result of the various hardships experienced by African American youth/young adults.

These are just my random thoughts about the article I read. Certainly I also think its interesting that article perpetuates this idea that SAT/MCAT and gpas are the only parameter with which to judge 'hardwork' or 'deservedness' to be in college or sustainability. I wholeheartedly disagree with that....and I think its a major reason why we have personal statements, letters of recommendations, claiming a disadvantaged status statements and so forth. GPA and standardized tests are not the only way to judge someone's competence. And anyone that believes this...I can understand how one can equate the AAMC's stats and the stats of this article as URMs/Blacks getting in underqualified. I also think it shows immaturity and tunnel vision and a lack of having experienced much in the world outside of being a student.

Orthofix...I think you are stretching the means of AA and the term a bit. First of all, I think highschool and college are very different from medical school simply because the government has made it possible for medical school to be COMPLETELY covered via guaranteed loans. That helps alot. In medical school, for the FIRST time ever, I will not HAVE to work while in school.....and I can get GUARANTEED loans that cover everything literally. Not the case in highschool, even free, my income was essential...and in college, the aggregate and annual limits did not cover ALL of my needs. Anyway, from talking with alot of admissions people it seem alot of people are misinformed about how AA works. Certainly, schools don't see the first 'black' application and say 'they're in". What AA allows adcoms to do, and not just for URMS but for other groups that benefit from AA...is flag their applications for a "deeper look". This includes URMs, Athletes, LEGACY(the biggest beneficiary of affirmative action in my opinion), disabled...etc. All are compared and scrutinized and OTHER parameters besides the HOLY TWO(gpa and stand. score) are used to determine sustainability within the school, hardwork, past success etc... NO school wants to or will admit someone that they don't think can survive the curriculum. I admit that the system is not perfect...I think EVERYONE deserves a deeper look. However, at current state the higher educational system is WAAAAY lopsided (see over 20k white medschool applicants...2500 black applicants)....Something needs to be done to attempt to level the playingfield....and looking at sheer numbers we are a LONG WAYS away.

I agree with medicine2006...these boards are a waste of time...trying to educate folks. I just hope that people posting don't go into interviews with such tunnel vision, adcoms can see right through that.

 

[exmike]

However, at current state the higher educational system is WAAAAY lopsided (see over 20k white medschool applicants...2500 black applicants)....Something needs to be done to attempt to level the playingfield....and looking at sheer numbers we are a LONG WAYS away

First of all, according to AAMC, there were 2,900 black applicants in 2002

the US census 2002 estimated the black population at 12%, and white population 75%.

Considering there were 34,000 applicants in 2002, that means

White = 20,000/34,000 = 58.8% of applicants | ratio: 58.8/75 = .78
Black = 2,900/34,000 = 8.53% of applicants | ratio: 12/8.53 = .71

It appears that blacks and white are applying to medical school at about the same rate in proportion to national demographics. I don't see how the playing field is that uneven.

 

[Ms. Dawson DO]

I rarely respond to people regarding numbers. First of all, I was rounding and generalizing...never claiming to be quoting exact numbers.

Second of all, don't come like you are trying be 'accurate' and arent...why not post the exact numbers. Not that i know what your 'ratios' mean...but here are more exact numbers for 2002..please refer to AAMC website next time. For those interested:
http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/famgloisa.htm

Total Applicants: 33,625
Total White: 21,631
Total Black: 2,978
White percentage: 64.3%
Black percentage:8.9%

Census information provided by you...is 75% white, 12% Black..

white:64.3/75 = 0.857
black: 8.9/12 = 0.741

Accepted
total:17,592
white:11,766 (66.9%)
black:1,339 (7.6%)

66.9/75 = 0.892
7.6/12 = 0.633

Interesting, if this means anything to anyone besides you....this means that even in the applicant pool blacks are still underrepresented. And it gets slightly worse for accepted students. Clearly the numbers aren't as close as you would make them seem. People if you going to 'quote' numbers, its best to be accurate. I've always used 'estimates' to be safe....

 

[exmike]

Originally posted by Ms. Dawson, DO
I rarely respond to people regarding numbers. First of all, I was rounding and generalizing...never claiming to be quoting exact numbers.

Second of all, don't come like you are trying be 'accurate' and arent...why not post the exact numbers. Not that i know what your 'ratios' mean...but here are more exact numbers for 2002..please refer to AAMC website next time. For those interested:
http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/famgloisa.htm

Total Applicants: 33,625
Total White: 21,631
Total Black: 2,978
White percentage: 64.3%
Black percentage:8.9%

Census information provided by you...is 75% white, 12% Black..

white:64.3/75 = 0.857
black: 8.9/12 = 0.741

Accepted
total:17,592
white:11,766 (66.9%)
black:1,339 (7.6%)

66.9/75 = 0.892
7.6/12 = 0.633

Interesting, if this means anything to anyone besides you....this means that even in the applicant pool blacks are still underrepresented. And it gets slightly worse for accepted students. Clearly the numbers aren't as close as you would make them seem. People if you going to 'quote' numbers, its best to be accurate. I've always used 'estimates' to be safe....

Again, you're manipulating the numbers to fit your needs.
You are using ACCEPTED, i was using APPLIED. Cleary black applicants have lower average GPA's and MCATS, and it would be expected that their acceptance rates would be lower. If you were asking about OPPORTUNITY, (which you were), the application rates are much closer to each other. Pick one, and stick it wont you?

 

[medicine2006]

Can't we all just get along! Numbers are only part of the story. Black doctors are just as good as white doctors.

 

[nanosomic]

Originally posted by medicine2006
Can't we all just get along! Numbers are only part of the story. Black doctors are just as good as white doctors.

EXACTLY.

 

[exmike]

Originally posted by nanosomic
EXACTLY.

Actually that was my point. It annoys me when people start throwing out numbers and statistics defending or supporting, so I felt compelled to throw some in to show that. I'm neither black nor white myself, and I usually avoid these AA threads, but its obvious that a vocal minority will be intractable in their opinions on AA, so we should just drop it, but im sure thats been said 100000x on SDN already

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

I never understood these types of arguments. Is she trying to say we DON'T discriminate in favor of URMs? Thanks for posting the stats, exmike. It was very informative.

 

[notJERRYFALWELL]

why hasn't this thread been swept over to Everyone like the others?

 

[Ms. Dawson DO]

I wasn't the one that started posting numbers..
I merely was using the accurate ones since exmike? started his post with 'well actually' like he was about to bestow upon us some more 'accurate' numbers.

If you look closely at my post, exmike..I include BOTH applied AND accepted... putting the applied numbers FIRST

"Total Applicants: 33,625
Total White: 21,631
Total Black: 2,978
White percentage: 64.3%
Black percentage:8.9%

Census information provided by you...is 75% white, 12% Black..

white:64.3/75 = 0.857
black: 8.9/12 = 0.741"


MY POINT WAS THAT THEY ARE NOT THE SAME NUMBERS THAT YOU POSTED...AND THEY ARE IN FACT FURTHER APART THAN YOU CLAIM. My second point was that the difference becomes worse with accepted students.
Reading is fundamental.

I care not about these numbers. I think they only prove that blacks are underrepresented. But I agree with medicine2006, in that numbers are really not important....how we treat patients and practice medicine is more important..regardless of race.

 

[medicine2006]

Right or wrong many black people have a mistrust of non-black doctors. I was involved with a project while at UCLA where we sent out 5 white students out to mostly black neighborhoods to encourage the elderly there to get the influenza vaccine each year because the elderly are most severely hit by this disease. Needless to say these patients did not always welcome our people. Some of it had to do with the flu shot itself because these people were old enough to remember the 1976(7?) flu vaccine situation. But mostly these patients remember Tuskegee and other incidences of white doctors doing harm to them. So you can tell me all you want that a white doctor can just as well serve the black community but that is NOT the case. Also white and Asians doctors, in general not all, can not relate well to the unique problems facing the black community. For example a white doctor telling a black patient to go to the gym or walk more without realizing that these people are often too poor for gym membership and walking in their hood is dangerous. Non-black doctors are often not sensitive to these special issues.

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

Ah, I love numbers. I'm one bored SOB.

Ms. Dawson makes a charge that black/white applicant ratio is WAAAAY lopsided (incorrectly using absolute figures for comparison)

However, at current state the higher educational system is WAAAAY lopsided (see over 20k white medschool applicants...2500 black applicants)....

Ms. Dawson's estimate:
White applicants = 20,001 (best case scenario for Ms. Dawson)
Black applicants = 2,500

Whites: 20,001/33625=59.48% of applicants
Ratio to population: 59.48/75 =0.79
Blacks: 2500/33625 = 7.43% of applicants
Ratio to population: 7.43/12 = 0.62
.79 white - .62 black = .17 difference
Real ratio to population: 0.116

Ms. Dawson's best case scenario estimate distorted the real figure by 0.054 (.17-.116)


Exmike tried to show that using absolute figures is misleading. It looks like he made the mistake of using the 20,000 figure for white applicants that Ms. Dawson provided.

First of all, according to AAMC, there were 2,900 black applicants in 2002

Ex Mike's estimate:
White applicants = 20,000
Black applicants = 2,900

Whites: 20,000/33625=59.5% of applicants
Ratio to population: 59.5/75= 0.79
Blacks: 2900/33625= 8.62% of applicants
Ratio to population: 8.62/12= 0.718
.79 white - .718 black = 0.072
Real ratio to population: 0.116
Exmike's estimate distorted the real figure by -0.044 (.072-.116)


.044 ratio distortion for Ex Mike vs .054 ratio distortion for Ms. Dawson. Conclusions: Ex Mike's estimate was much closer to reality. Thanks to Ms. Dawson for finding the real numbers.

 

[Gleevec]

Originally posted by medicine2006
Right or wrong many black people have a mistrust of non-black doctors. I was involved with a project while at UCLA where we sent out 5 white students out to mostly black neighborhoods to encourage the elderly there to get the influenza vaccine each year because the elderly are most severely hit by this disease. Needless to say these patients did not always welcome our people. Some of it had to do with the flu shot itself because these people were old enough to remember the 1976(7?) flu vaccine situation. But mostly these patients remember Tuskegee and other incidences of white doctors doing harm to them. So you can tell me all you want that a white doctor can just as well serve the black community but that is NOT the case. Also white and Asians doctors, in general not all, can not relate well to the unique problems facing the black community. For example a white doctor telling a black patient to go to the gym or walk more without realizing that these people are often too poor for gym membership and walking in their hood is dangerous. Non-black doctors are often not sensitive to these special issues.

I dont think a black kid from suburbia would relate very well to people in the "hood" either. I would imagine that a white/asian kid from the hood would have a better understanding of the community than someone who wears Abercrombie as his "painting clothes."

And then there's the part that bothers me a lot with Hispanic premeds who cant speak Spanish. How can you possibly relate to spanish-speaking patients in the "hood" if you dont even speak the language.

I dont think race predicts behavior as many have suggested. Your social upbringing has a lot to do with your personality as well. Thats why I dont think that being black/hispanic automatically makes you more adept at treating similar populations. I think adcoms should look at individuals case by case. You cant stop racism by being racist (in the technical sense, meaning distinguishing people solely by race, even without the negative connotation).

 

[profunda]

I just wanted to say I also know a lot of 1st/2nd/3rd generation chinese who do not attend universities or obtained an ordinary BA in accounting somewhere after 6-7 years. I know a lot of chinese who are dumb and lazy, playing japanese PS2 games everyday, smoking cigarettes in front of asian dessert houses tryin to look like tupac and driving semisuped up civics. Some others listen to korean music, work at their parent's store, and go to asian worships. Dont forget to account for a lot of THOSE GUYS. Not all asians get good grades, and as a matter of fact, I see more whites than asians in my medical school.

Dont mean to sound racist at all, but I'm just telling it like I see it and reminding you all of this one observation of mine.

 

[medicine2006]

Originally posted by Gleevec
I dont think a black kid from suburbia would relate very well to people in the "hood" either. I would imagine that a white/asian kid from the hood would have a better understanding of the community than someone who wears Abercrombie as his "painting clothes."

And then there's the part that bothers me a lot with Hispanic premeds who cant speak Spanish. How can you possibly relate to spanish-speaking patients in the "hood" if you dont even speak the language.

I dont think race predicts behavior as many have suggested. Your social upbringing has a lot to do with your personality as well. Thats why I dont think that being black/hispanic automatically makes you more adept at treating similar populations. I think adcoms should look at individuals case by case. You cant stop racism by being racist (in the technical sense, meaning distinguishing people solely by race, even without the negative connotation).

You didn't address any of my points to try to disprove them rather you just rehashed the same anti-AA BS. The five white students from my UCLA group weren't trusted by the mostly black seniors. It didn't matter that one of them grew up not too far from Compton. Institutional racism and malpractice has led to mistrust of white doctors. A rich black student from Beverly Hills still would have had a better reaction from the people.

 

[Gleevec]

Originally posted by medicine2006
You didn't address any of my points to try to disprove them rather you just rehashed the same anti-AA BS. The five white students from my UCLA group weren't trusted by the mostly black seniors. It didn't matter that one of them grew up not too far from Compton. Institutional racism and malpractice has led to mistrust of white doctors. A rich black student from Beverly Hills still would have had a better reaction from the people.

Haha I enjoy how you avoid all the points of my argument, I guess if you can't argue it ignore it. The fact is, even if a rich black kid would get a better reaction, that doesnt mean he relates better. It simply means that people liked him for the color of his skin. He would be as likely to tell them to get a "gym membership" as any doctor of any race because of his economic background. If you want to solve the problem of mistrust in the community, you dont solve it by giving up and letting people think white doctors are bad. You solve it through increasing contact, interaction, and the fostering of trust. You cant do that by your logic, where you just plain give up on trying to foster interracial cooperation. Perhaps you give up so easily out of selfish motives? I believe racial interaction is crucial, and you dont solve racism by ignoring it and letting it fester.

What you propose is to ignore the problem itself and treat the symptoms only. Not only is this bad medical practice, but bad sociological practice as well. I await another response where you ignore all my arguments and simply rephrase your original post.

I think everyone on this thread wants to end racism and the legacy of decades of oppression, its just many people believe affirmative action is not the way to stop racism, as it represents a performative contradiction.

 

[Ms. Dawson DO]

Ryo-Ohki... how dense are you? I am beginning to think the sdn has a bunch of special-ed folks on board. My last post to this thread...I have never come on the board claiming to post exact numbers...both the 20k and 2500k was an estimation in my thread. Now exmike writes back like he is trying to be 'accurate'...ie "First of all..." and then doing mathematical stuff to supposedly 'PROVE" something. He proved nothing....and worse yet, he didn't use the actual numbers. Your post, comparing my GUESSTIMATION of both white and black applicants...to his so called "mathematical" post...proves nothing either..(except perhaps you two are special). My point is that exmike should NOT have come posting numbers with this math...acting like things are "almost" equal and therefore NOT uneven on the playing field. In no no world is the difference between (.78 and .71) FURTHER than (.857 and .741). Which was my point in the second post. The numbers are further than his post would lead us to believe. Refrain from trying to use numbers, actual ones, and math, to prove **** if you aren't' going to bust out the EXACT ones. My final point. My mentioning my estimates in the very last sentence of a 5 paragraph post...was merely a 'side' note and in no way a comparison to exmike's display of mathematical 'genius'. Thank Ryo-okhi for pointing out um NOTHING. You are all welcome for the real numbers.

I'm out.

 

[Kovox]

Originally posted by mecute
1.) Supporting Parents who encourage them

2.) Culture that is founded upon hard work and competition

3.) Culture that does not believe in outward protests of unfair treatment, rather an innate desire to prove ourselves to overcome the unfair treatment

4.) Proud people who do not want to be treated differently than others, and in doing so conforms to the majority of societal ideals in which they live in.

5.) Youth culture that idolizes persons with success and power through higher education, not superstars in music, movies, or professional sports.

6.) As a result of 1-5, Consistently rising average test scores and gpas at or near the top of the population every year, and as a result an ever-rising bar of which to measure ourselves by, whether by choice, or by the heightened expectations of parents and asian society.

Would a white person please start a thread called "Why Caucasian Americans Succeed?" I'd like to see what it says. We've already heard from the African Americans on this matter.

Enough stereotyping? You are making such a broad generalization. Culture, parents may affect you but you choose how it does.

The whole "You succeed because of x. You fail because of x. You must be so and so because you have so and so." Why can't people just take some responsibility of their success and failure. What is the basis for all of this generalization...lumping people into one category because of their race is wrong.

And the whole AA Debate...uh get over it people. So someone with lower scores got in and you didn't...well, what about those students who had higher scores than you or the same scores than you or scored a few points lower than you, who got into the same school as the AA student? Ever think that perhaps there was something wrong with YOUR application that got you to lose your spot?

If you don't like AA that's fine but to attribute scores to the intelligence of a person or how well they succeed is immature. In fact, it's nothing but whining. If you don't like AA then get into politics and change it.

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by Ms. Dawson, DO
Ryo-Ohki... how dense are you? I am beginning to think the sdn has a bunch of special-ed folks on board.

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

Ms. Dawson's estimate:
White applicants = 20,000+
Black applicants = 2,500
Total applicants = did not say
Used absolute figures in comparison

Ex-Mike's estimate
White applicants = did not say (used 20,000)
Black applicants = 2900
Total applicants = 34,000
Used relative ratio figures in comparison

Real figures
White applicants = 21,631
Black applicants = 2,978
Total Applicants= 33,625


In other words, both you and mike underestimated the white applicants by 1600. However, you underestimated the black applicants by 400 while Mike underestimated it by 78. It seems like Mike's only mistake was to use your 20K white figure. His use of relative ratios were a much better way to compare the numbers. All in all, I think his estimate was a much better effort and representation of the truth.

People will disagree with you and will analyze and critique your arguments, Dawson. Unfortunately, it seems like you are taking all of this rather personally. If these threads distress you so much, then you probably should do exactly what you said and stop posting. However, I would encourage you not to take all of this personally and continue to post on these threads.

Cheers.

 

[Ms. Dawson DO]

No mike's mistake was attempting to 'educate' folks with mathematical ratios and not using the accurate numbers. In no way was my post comparable to his, in that the MAIN POINT of my argument had little to do with the numbers and more to do with answering mecute's thread regarding the 'so called' lack of problems faced by the black community. I suggest if people critique posts they do so by reading the ENTIRE post and addressing everything. To take the last sentence of my post an then try to analyze it with so called accurate ratios is bogus in my opinion. I simply believe that if mike really wanted to prove a point, he would have been better off quoting exact numbers...why would one say "First of all the the AAMC has...." if he wasn't going to be accurate with both white and black and total applicants? YOU called mike's post an estimation...I called it what it was...an attempt to "accurately" show that the playing field was indeed level...a rebuttal to my statement about it not being. However, NOT using accurate numbers, in my opinion, was a way to manipulate the numbers in favor of whatever argument he was trying to make. When in reality with the ACTUAL numbers, which I never claimed to have (since I underestimated both WHITE and BLACK applicants...white by far more)....shows that blacks are still underrepresented. THAT'S the bottom line. Anyone who starts busting out ratios...and using AAMC as their reference..should come with the actual numbers. period. Which was the point of post replying to exmike's "much better effort and representation of the truth".

In terms of the thread....sigh ignorance is frustrating. However, not personal...thanks anyway for the 'thoughtful analysis'.

 

[darkhorse]

More AA threads!!! I usually don't respond to these but I couldn't resist.

"All in all, I think his estimate was a much better effort and representation of the truth."
by Ryo , ohki

Ok, so what is the truth? ANALYSES OF Estimations or actual numbers? What is the problem with some people on SDN? Full of hostility, very little logic. Also, from your signature you should consider politics to put your voice to use.

 

[exmike]

Originally posted by Ms. Dawson, DO
No mike's mistake was attempting to 'educate' folks with mathematical ratios and not using the accurate numbers. In no way was my post comparable to his, in that the MAIN POINT of my argument had little to do with the numbers and more to do with answering mecute's thread regarding the 'so called' lack of problems faced by the black community. I suggest if people critique posts they do so by reading the ENTIRE post and addressing everything. To take the last sentence of my post an then try to analyze it with so called accurate ratios is bogus in my opinion. I simply believe that if mike really wanted to prove a point, he would have been better off quoting exact numbers...why would one say "First of all the the AAMC has...." if he wasn't going to be accurate with both white and black and total applicants? YOU called mike's post an estimation...I called it what it was...an attempt to "accurately" show that the playing field was indeed level...a rebuttal to my statement about it not being. However, NOT using accurate numbers, in my opinion, was a way to manipulate the numbers in favor of whatever argument he was trying to make. When in reality with the ACTUAL numbers, which I never claimed to have (since I underestimated both WHITE and BLACK applicants...white by far more)....shows that blacks are still underrepresented. THAT'S the bottom line. Anyone who starts busting out ratios...and using AAMC as their reference..should come with the actual numbers. period. Which was the point of post replying to exmike's "much better effort and representation of the truth".

In terms of the thread....sigh ignorance is frustrating. However, not personal...thanks anyway for the 'thoughtful analysis'.

Wow, this from someone that earlier said "i'm not too into numbers" or something like that. First, I used YOUR white estimate, and second, I only looked up the AAMC numbers for black applicants because I sensed you were fudging the numbers.

IN ANY CASE, my point was that using number to support AA will get you nowhere, as we've both made abundantly clear here. AA is based upon a personal trait, and trying to justify or debunk it using statistics is pointless, as we all know that people can manipulate statistics any way they want.

MY MAIN POINT was that the differences in application rates isnt ALL THAT DIFFERENT. If you want to argue for AA, you should use something besides that. THATS IT.

ok can we kill this thread now?

 

[Ms. Dawson DO]

interesting that you would look up the black numbers and not white...and or the total applicants. interesting you sensed i was fudging black numbers but not white...since i was off by over 1500 with white and 400 with black..i guess i was doing more fudging for the wihte numbers. all very interesting.

now how did we BOTH prove the numbers are not as bad as people would make them seem...you do realize i posted the accurate numbers and white applicants had a .86 ratio to .74 black applicants based on your census information. is this not worse or farther apart than you would make it seem in your original post?(.78 to .71) Are you trying to say that blacks should not be considered underrepresented? The ONE thing we do agree on is that numbers are NOT the main issue. But they are still a problem regardless...but one in a long list of other problems that i mentioned in my 5 paragraph post that you quoted only the last line of. all interesting.

Goodluck on secondaries everyone.

 

[rocknroll985]

1.) Supporting Parents who encourage them

2.) Culture that is founded upon hard work and competition

3.) Culture that does not believe in outward protests of unfair treatment, rather an innate desire to prove ourselves to overcome the unfair treatment

4.) Proud people who do not want to be treated differently than others, and in doing so conforms to the majority of societal ideals in which they live in.

5.) Youth culture that idolizes persons with success and power through higher education, not superstars in music, movies, or professional sports.

6.) As a result of 1-5, Consistently rising average test scores and gpas at or near the top of the population every year, and as a result an ever-rising bar of which to measure ourselves by, whether by choice, or by the heightened expectations of parents and asian society.

Would a white person please start a thread called "Why Caucasian Americans Succeed?" I'd like to see what it says. We've already heard from the African Americans on this matter.

Nice post. What does that have to do with being a Neuro Surgeon?