Where should I put this at in my application? I am currently taking it now, but I think it would be a nice touch to add to my D.O. application. Thoughts?
EMT Class
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if you haven't worked as an EMT yet, then put it under EC.
Just completing an EMT class isn't a nice touch. In fact, an EMT class by its self is essentially worthless.
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EMT class requires hours of ride alongs and ER observation. It also teaches and results in certification to save lives. While by itself it may not be a huge tipping point on an application, to disregard it as essentially worthless is inaccurate. Completing the course is also an indication to the adcoms that he/she is essentially making a commitment to use the certification to aquire more clinical time over the next year. My ER observation hours for EMT class, while few, were a big part of why I chose to re-orient my life to apply to medical school. Is that worthless?
In regard to the OP, put it in the EC section for now unless it's graded/for credit. Once you work, keep it in the EC and include your con. ed.s with it in the same entry (ie under the heading EMS certification and con. ed.), and add your job to the paid work. If you do volunteer EMS, put it in the volunteer section.
It really depends on the state, and the requirement ranges from almost no hours, to the lower double digits. My course required 8 hospital, 8 ambulance. Yes, it's "hours" but you aren't going to have some sort of mystical insight into providing medical care in the handful of hours required.
Nothing that, in everyday life off of an ambulance, couldn't be taught in a Red Cross first aid and CPR course. What good is knowing how to apply oxygen (which is drastically overused in EMS anyways) or apply a traction splint when you carry neither in day to day life? Also, EMTs do relatively little outside of providing a ride to the hospital, and I'm more than willing to hash out the realities that the limited level of education required of EMTs (110 hours per NSC, something recommended 150 (IIRC) under the new national standards. Both of which are entirely too small), and the resulting limited scope of practice.
What commitment? A few hours ambulance and ER observation? The potential to work as an EMT? Nope, sorry. A certification by itself means nothing, especially considering the complete glut of applicants that both have an EMT certification and have never used the certification (which neither is true of the OP at time of application).
Apples to oranges. You changed your path due to the clinicals. The OP is already applying. Yes, if you were already applying when you took the course I'd argue just as easily that it was worthless.
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Clearly your opinion of EMS is different than mine, but you are entitled to it. You've certainly made a number of points that I won't argue with, in some cases because I actually agree with you on them. My problem, so as to leave any secondary squabbling aside, is with the way you shot down the OP. Your point is valid in that the certification by itself doesn't entail that much but to dismiss it in such a way does nothing for anyone. Had you taken the time to write out what you just did I may not have replied at all, as before you even posted the question had already been answered twice. I may be new to this community but I know how much it sucks to come in and get shot down by someone with as many posts as yours in the way you did to the OP. A lot of people come here needing a dose of reality but this OP is not one of them. You've been through the application process (twice?) and got into a great school so you know how much it sucks, don't make it suck even more by being so dismissive.
If you have never worked as an EMT, put it as extra-curricular.
If you have worked as an EMT, while it certainly shows your commitment to emergency medicine as well as patient contact experience, it probably will only add a light "touch" to your application, unless you've done more than interfacility transports and dialysis runs.
Being a practicing paramedic (EMT-P) on the other hand, with it's 1+ years of schooling and several hundred hours of didactic and clinical time, might give you a boost. Before deciding to apply myself I talked to a few paramedics in med school who said that's all they got asked about during their interviews.
And just to let you know where I'm coming from, attitude-wise, I've been a medic for many years, and have taught more EMT and paramedic classes than I care to count.... so I'm not anti-EMS by any means. Just realistic.
A
I think that's our biggest difference of opinion. Working in EMS can be a decent boost (primarily at the interview stage than anything else though) if approached properly. In my opinion, what's important with EMS experience is more of the health care systems experience (seeing hospitals, doctor's offices, assisted living facilities, skilled nursing facilities, rehabilitation centers, dialysis clinics, etc) and the experience working with patients suffering from either acute or chronic diseases than the actual procedures performed or the training required to get an EMT cert (really at any level of EMS in most places). Given a significant call volume, it doesn't take entirely long to reach that sort of understanding of the health care system and the complexities that some patients face, but it certainly takes longer than what the OP will have from end of class to start of medical school (not to talk about beginning of employment to interview date). At this point in medical school, I can do a physical exam 10 times more complicated than what an EMT does (COMP teaches a basic history and physical [think yearly checkup style] during the first semester and covers specific regional exams more closely the following 3 semesters. All of the physical exam testing uses standardized patient actors instead of talking through a checklist or working on classmates), but haven't heard anything at all at this point about various types of long and short term care resources.
As such, to me someone coming in and thinking that just being enrolled in a course (a course which is definitely not unique among applicants now a days) does need a dose of reality. Additionally, if I was over valueing something, or really making any sort of mistake, I'd rather have someone come out and tell me directly instead of trying to be subtle about it. I can't fix something that I don't know is wrong.
Was that all they talked about because it was important or because there wasn't much else to talk about? Sure, most of my interviewers asked about my EMS experience. They also asked about grad school and research though. Similarly, I imagine if I had some sort of other major extracurricular activity I would have been asked about that as well.
Of course there were other questions as well (I assume), but the ones I talked to were surprised by the shear number of "what's the coolest/saddest/hardest/etc. call you've been on and what did you learn about yourself/others/medicine from it" kinds of questions.....
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Having worked 5 or 6 years as an EMT-B before med school:
I probably would not get an EMT just to add to your application. I don't know that it is really going to add or how much the committee will care. They will see you did it 4 months of whatever it is prior to your application. The value of being an EMT to them is not just having the title.
If you have worked for years as an EMT and through your experiences you have decided you would like to pursue a career in medicine....that would make a difference and definitely add to your application. It would show that you understand a small portion of the medical field and have first hand experiences helping others in a medical capacity. That being said, EMS is very different from the medical model and how physicians in a hospital or even outpatient setting examine, interview and treat patients (unless you are planning EM). Working prehospital with premade algorithms is not how an ICU attending or a surgeon practices medicine. Yes it is in the health field, but it won't say much about medical knowledge or training because you are not learning much besides ABCs, Extrication, and how to safely load and transport a patient. The anatomy and physiology you are going to learn totals 3 or 4 hours.
I think it can again really only speak to an applicants character/personal interests in helping people medically and showing some small basis of experience to prove that to them, thus giving them a reason why they should admit you to their program. If you just have EMT after your name and no experience in that capacity its not going to add anything to your application in my opinion.
I probably would not get an EMT just to add to your application. I don't know that it is really going to add or how much the committee will care. They will see you did it 4 months of whatever it is prior to your application. The value of being an EMT to them is not just having the title.
If you have worked for years as an EMT and through your experiences you have decided you would like to pursue a career in medicine....that would make a difference and definitely add to your application. It would show that you understand a small portion of the medical field and have first hand experiences helping others in a medical capacity. That being said, EMS is very different from the medical model and how physicians in a hospital or even outpatient setting examine, interview and treat patients (unless you are planning EM). Working prehospital with premade algorithms is not how an ICU attending or a surgeon practices medicine. Yes it is in the health field, but it won't say much about medical knowledge or training because you are not learning much besides ABCs, Extrication, and how to safely load and transport a patient. The anatomy and physiology you are going to learn totals 3 or 4 hours.
I think it can again really only speak to an applicants character/personal interests in helping people medically and showing some small basis of experience to prove that to them, thus giving them a reason why they should admit you to their program. If you just have EMT after your name and no experience in that capacity its not going to add anything to your application in my opinion.
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As others have said just having the cert means nothing. Going out and using it is what you have to do. Talking about anything you did during your clinical hours is pretty much worthless cause its now done in 10 hours with an experienced person watching and doing anything complicated.
Even if you go out and use your cert and you get trapped in the hell that is IFT you most likely won't have anything worth talking about. You might come out jammed up in an awkward situation where they ask you your saddest/most memorable/stressful situations. You being stuck on IFT with stable pt's won't have anything to say. So go 911/volley if you do decide to pursue an EMS career. You also might get people who don't know much about EMS.
ER tech or doctor offices are cool places to work. ER above all if the docs/RN's like/trust you, you can do some pretty sweet stuff well above your EMT education and training. Anywho listen to Siggy they know their stuff.
Ok for the record, I am not putting it on just to simply beef up my resume. I am doing it to get patient contact. I took the year off so I am doing this and then hoping I get some type of job with it next semester after I get certified... It is to open more opportunities and get me some hands on capabilities since a lot of patient contact requires SOME certification besides volunteering (which I do at the hospital also). Just to clarify.
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The other problem you might have is most places hiring are looking for longer then a 6 mo commitment. They don't want to take the time to train you just to have you leave. Some companies that I applied to had several weeks of training, so you might wanna check with your local ems company.
I'm going to be a little cynical, but I honestly wouldn't give a flip about most companies and they don't need to know during the interview how long I plan on sticking around. That said, I would be nice to a smaller company in letting them know my long term plans.
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Yeah, that's a fantastic idea. Screw over your employer because it's not like medical schools get your resume and they may call your boss that will say how much of a jackass you were by leaving them before the time you committed to.
1. I never committed any time specific time period to any company. Every job I've ever had was at will employment.
2. I think you drastically underestimate the turnover at larger ambulance companies.
3. I never submitted a formal resume to any school.
4. I highly doubt that anyone at any school I applied to called the contact number for any job I listed on AMCAS/AACOMAS.
While I'm already on record as saying the OP's plans are not such a hot idea, I gotta agree with Siggy here. I've NEVER dealt with an ambulance company that didn't have a turnover issue, and as the quality coordinator of a fairly huge EMS system, I can tell you I've dealt with quite a few.
But while leaving an EMT job after six months won't piss off most ambulance companies, just taking an EMT class willy-nilly won't help his med school app much either.
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If you actually want to be an EMT it will be worth it, regardless of whether it not it helps your admission decision. Don't go into EMS just to say you did. Be careful about where you choose to work too, I worked as a basic for a 80% IFT 20% nursing home emergencies company. It will drive you insane, and may even make you second guess medicine. I now work as a paramedic in a 911 primary area and for the most part love it!
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It is really sad that one day you are going to be a doctor.
Are you going to, you know, have some sort of actual argument, or are you just going to stay at some sort of lame troll? Hopefully an argument backed up by knowledge of both what an EMT course consists of and what medical school consists of? Exactly how many times have you been through the application process again?
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I thought the "lame troll" was the one who spewed unsolicited advice and didn't answer the question.
Let's review the original post since apparently you have a problem with reading comprehension (you should definitely work on this before the MCAT).
What the hell do you think the entire "Thoughts" followed by a question mark meant if not a request to comment on the entire concept that an EMT class, alone, would be a "nice touch to add to my D.O. application"?
So, yes. Saying, "Just completing an EMT class isn't a nice touch. In fact, an EMT class by its self is essentially worthless," is very much answering his request for comments on taking an EMT class.
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I've also heard that EMT class doesn't really help unless you actually work as an EMT or ER tech (dunno if they're the same thing.) In fact, I think there's a sticky by one of the EM forum members about the benefits and costs of being an EMT.
OP- Consider volunteering as well as paid EMT work. I've been a volunteer EMT-B for over a year and a half and have put in probably 1,000+ hours of time. I've gotten great patient care and clinical experience, seen lots of doctors and paramedics in action, met a doctor to shadow, and been front and center for everything from grandma falling out of bed, to strokes, cardiac arrests, and gunshots to the head.
Personally I think the experience has been invaluable, whether it helps my app or not is up to the schools I guess, but I know it has helped to focus me.
Personally I think the experience has been invaluable, whether it helps my app or not is up to the schools I guess, but I know it has helped to focus me.
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i don't think it's worthless, I'm taking the year off and was asked many times in secondaries and interviews on my plans for the year. And saying that I was taking an EMT class (among other things) was a suitable answer.
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Getting an EMT cert is only useful if you intend to use it, otherwise ADCOMS know you are just padding your application.
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well it's better than doing nothing, and many things can be construed as just padding the application but it doesn't mean that one can not learn from the experience. It tells them that you have a plan if you don't get accepted and will continue to work towards a healthcare related goal.
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Ehhh believe what you will. But, I think you are reaching a bit and trying to justify your reasoning for taking an EMT class this late in the process.
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well, i've just already gotten into a few med schools so i'm really only taking the class for my benefit at this point forward. I'm just saying that it didn't hurt during the process.
i was just saying that an EMT class is indeed a nice touch on the application just like volunteering and shadowing a doctor is. Not that an EMT class is required and will get you into med school because it won't
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Considering the fact that you only need a limited number of shadowing hours, I thought that the 80 or so hours of patient contact from my EMT-B course were a nice touch to my app. Obviously, it won't replace shadowing or volunteering, but, I wouldn't call it worthless.
EDIT:
Just did some more reading through the thread. I took the EMT course for personal benefit. If you're taking it solely to strengthen your application, I think there are more productive ways to go about doing that.
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I do have to say that at this point so many premeds are taking an EMT class that without significant experience it's rather worthless. Take it for personal benefit, but don't think it will be a "nice touch" on your application unless you've been using it in the field for a while.
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I'm generally of the opinion that it won't help you in and of itself. But I'm also of the opinion that any clinical exposure you can get is helpful, and anything you can do to open some doors for other experiences is well worth the time (if you have it).
I'm and Intermediate-EMT, and while I've never actually worked on an ambulance, my cert has opened up a whole world of volunteer opportunities that other students I'm competing against just won't have. I like to think of it as an opening that went through that has allowed me to make my application really stand out, and be rememberable. At this point, that's the most important thing. I'm banking on Adcom's being interested not in my EMT trainings, but in the awesome experiences they have allowed me to obtain.
After the OP's clarification, I think he/she is on the right track.
To see my response in the other current EMT thread (contains a small description of what my EMT has done for me) follow this link: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=10605668&postcount=2
SLC
I'm and Intermediate-EMT, and while I've never actually worked on an ambulance, my cert has opened up a whole world of volunteer opportunities that other students I'm competing against just won't have. I like to think of it as an opening that went through that has allowed me to make my application really stand out, and be rememberable. At this point, that's the most important thing. I'm banking on Adcom's being interested not in my EMT trainings, but in the awesome experiences they have allowed me to obtain.
After the OP's clarification, I think he/she is on the right track.
To see my response in the other current EMT thread (contains a small description of what my EMT has done for me) follow this link: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=10605668&postcount=2
SLC
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I took both my EMT and my Paramedic training at accredited universities, which means that I had to send transcripts from those institutions to AACOMAS. Some of my paramedic training actually counted towards my science GPA!
I agree with anyone above who has said that having taken the CLASS is meaningless. Experience (real experience), on the other hand, is something else entirely.
I agree with anyone above who has said that having taken the CLASS is meaningless. Experience (real experience), on the other hand, is something else entirely.
