Penn's 2011 Match list: Free market "win" or Medicine's illuminati at work?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

mTOR

Full Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2007
Messages
572
Reaction score
4
Points
4,721
  1. Resident [Any Field]
Yes, this thread is a spin off from the match list thread, where it was suggested that the reimbursement to very competitive specialties was a direct reflection of their relative importance to society. In tune with this, it was proclaimed to be a function of a free-market system. Put bluntly, apparently derm is well compensated because society demands only the best and brightest to pop their pimples!


Obviously, there is some confusion -- if not complete ignorance -- of how physicians are reimbursed. Forgivable though, as this is the pre-med section. So, I decided to make this thread to shed some light on the matter.

First, it would be helpful to view this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource-Based_Relative_Value_Scale -- the criticisms section of this wiki article is especially informative in highlighting some of the controversy. That "regulatory committee (RUC)" they mention refers to the AMA's Relative Value Scale Update Committee. A group that is strangely shrouded in so much secrecy but yet holds so much power, it's damn near illuminati-esque:

HEALTH INDUSTRY
OCTOBER 26, 2010
SECRETS OF THE SYSTEM
Physician Panel Prescribes the Fees Paid by Medicare

Three times a year, 29 doctors gather around a table in a hotel meeting room. Their job is an unusual one: divvying up billions of Medicare dollars.

The group, convened by the American Medical Association, has no official government standing. Members are mostly selected by medical-specialty trade groups. Anyone who attends its meetings must sign a confidentiality agreement.

Yet the influence of the secretive panel, known as the Relative Value Scale Update Committee, is enormous. The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, which oversee Medicare, typically follow at least 90% of its recommendations in figuring out how much to pay doctors for their work. Medicare spends over $60 billion a year on doctors and other practitioners. Many private insurers and Medicaid programs also use the federal system in creating their own fee schedules.

The RUC, as it is known, has stoked a debate over whether doctors have too much control over the flow of taxpayer dollars in the $500 billion Medicare program. Its critics fault the committee for contributing to a system that spends too much money on sophisticated procedures, while shorting the type of nuts-and-bolts primary care that could keep patients healthier from the start—and save money.

"It's indefensible," says Tom Scully, a former administrator of the Medicare and Medicaid agency who is now a lawyer in private practice. "It's not healthy to have the interested party essentially driving the decision-making process."

[-- snip --]

The RUC relies heavily on surveys performed by doctor specialty groups, requiring as few as 30 responses. The surveyed doctors estimate the time, stress, skill and other factors based on a hypothetical case that's supposed to represent a typical patient. They compare services to other, similar ones to help figure out relative difficulty. A blank example provided to The Wall Street Journal noted that the survey "is important to you and other physicians because these values determine the rate at which Medicare and other payers reimburse for procedures."

William Hsiao, the Harvard professor who led the original physician-work research used to set Medicare fees, argues the approach is almost guaranteed to inflate the values used to calculate fees.


"You do not turn this over to the people who have a strong interest in the outcome," he says. "Every society only wants its specialty's value to go up…. You cannot avoid the potential conflict."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704657304575540440173772102.html

Princeton economist, Uwe E. Reinhardt, had this to say:

December 10, 2010, 6:00 AM
The Little-Known Decision-Makers for Medicare Physicans Fees
By UWE E. REINHARDT

[-- snip --]

There is, in my view, great merit in government’s solicitation of the views of the profession whose economic affairs are being partially determined by the Medicare fee schedule. We should be thankful for the dedicated physicians who devote so much of their time to serving on the RUC Indeed, the C.M.S. recently wrote to the RUC, acknowledging its debt to these physicians.

As it happens, however, the C.M.S. tends to accept the RUC’s recommendations on RVU changes more than 90 percent of the time, which effectively makes the RUC the final arbiter in these matters. I do not believe that slavish acceptance of the RUC’s recommendations is a good thing, if only because the physicians on the RUC do labor under at least the appearance of a conflict of interest.

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2...cans-fees/?scp=1&sq=economix REinhardt&st=cse

The most eloquent and cogent critique, however, comes from the UMass chief of pediatric cardiology, Darshak Sanghavi, who wrote this article for slate magazine:

The Fix Is In
The hidden public-private cartel that sets health care prices.

By Darshak Sanghavi
Posted Wednesday, Sept. 2, 2009, at 12:13 PM ET

[-- snip --]

The root of the [primary care doctor] shortage can be traced to 1985, when a Harvard economist named William Hsiao developed a scale to measure the relative value of every single one of the thousands of services provided by doctors, a job later compared to measuring "the exact amount of anger in the world." For example, Hsiao's team deemed that a hysterectomy required 3.8 times more mental effort and 4.47 times more technical skill than a psychotherapy session. In 1992, Medicare formally adopted Hsiao's concept; private insurers followed suit. Today, this relative value-based system sets the prices—and therefore drives the priorities of American medicine.

Here's how it works. Doctors do a job—like placing a coronary artery stent, reading an EKG, or spending an hour examining and diagnosing a patient with a complex problem like insomnia—and earn something called "relative value units." In 2009, according to Medicare, the stent guy scores about 24 units for his relatively quick procedure, the EKG person gets 0.5 units for the 10 seconds his job requires, and the poor internist gets only 2.5 units for his hour of time. Figuring a doctor's total take per task is straightforward: Medicare adds up a doctor's total RVUs, multiplies the total by a fixed amount (roughly $40 right now), and writes the check.

It's clear that Medicare and all major insurers place far more relative value on fancy procedures like stents, EKGs, skin biopsies, CT scans, and bowel clean-outs than they do on actual face-to-face time with patients. Procedures, they have decreed, require more mental effort and skill than seeing actual people. The implications are obvious. Just visit any hospital: The dermatology, radiology, and cardiology centers that depend on high-volume, relatively quick procedures have gleaming new facilities, while the primary care and psychiatry clinics languish, since they earn their keep from poorly compensated face-to-face time with patients. And, obviously, specialists make more money than primary care doctors. (Even trainees grasp this; recently, only a single graduating internist out of a class of 50 residents at Massachusetts General Hospital planned to become a primary care doctor.)

Fundamentally, the entire payment model of American health care drives medical centers, doctors, and hospital managers to push for more fancy procedures at the expense of primary care doctors. How'd we get here? Since 1992, Medicare has depended almost entirely on the American Medical Association for guidance on how relative values should be set. In a devastating critique published in the Annals of Internal Medicine, scholars from the Urban Institute and the University of California-San Francisco explained that Medicare uncritically accepted 95 percent of the AMA's recommendations, which are formulated by the group's Relative Value Scale Update Committee, or RUC.

Of the committee's 29 members, 23 are appointed from subspecialties like cardiology and dermatology. Just three represent primary care, even though half of all Medicare dollars are spent on face-to-face encounters. Their meetings are closed to uninvited observers. Unsurprisingly, over time, the relative values of various procedures far outpaced face-to-face "evaluation and management." In 2000, for example, the RUC recommended relative value increases in 469 specialty procedure codes but made no change in codes related to evaluation and management—which are used by primary care doctors for outpatient visits for physicals, back pain, headaches, and so on.

This price-fixing process explains why people can't find primary care doctors in Massachusetts. By law, Medicare's costs are capped so what one doctor gains, another loses. (Medicare has long "rationed" care in this manner.) To meet budget targets, Medicare doesn't alter the relative valuations of different medical services; instead, it simply cuts the multiplier (say, from $40 to $38 per RVU), which just worsens the disparity between specialists and primary care doctors.

Over time, the big-money specialists dominating the AMA have demanded more and more "relative value" for their procedures. Medicare has rolled over and complied, which has drained revenue from the little-money workhorses—primary care doctors. More than any peculiarity of American medicine, these procedure-mad incentives have corrupted our health care system.

The funny thing is, paying more for medical care that's more valuable does makes sense. That's how capitalism should work. Unfortunately, ever since William Hsiao created the system in 1985, the collusive market valuation of medical services considered only the doctor (paying for his or her mental effort and stress, for example). The system completely fails to consider the value to the person actually getting the service.

If we did, for example, angioplasties for stable chest pain would never be worth so much more than outpatient visits to lower cholesterol and blood pressure, which are just as effective.


Who speaks for patients? The 36-employee Medicare Payment Advisory Committee serves as Congress' adviser on Medicare policy but lacks the authority and funding to counter the AMA's lobbying. For years, MedPAC has sensibly argued that Americans shouldn't outsource medical pricing to a private interest group. Because properly valuing medical services is a public good, we should invest tax dollars in comparative effectiveness studies and a stronger public agency to fight for patients.

That terrifies powerful special interest groups like physician specialty societies and drug companies. In the mid-1990s, the medical device maker Medtronic sued to block a sound federal report showing spinal fusions didn't help back pain, and Republicans gutted the responsible agency. The Medicare-approved relative value for the pointless surgery remained largely unchanged and the gravy train chugged along. When Barack Obama recently proposed expanding MedPAC and reducing some of the AMA's influence, the interest groups again fought back ferociously to defend the status quo—and christened MedPAC a "death panel."

And while nobody's been looking, they pulled the plug on primary care doctors.

http://www.slate.com/id/2227082

Clearly this is not a true free market payment system, and is evidently a large part of why US health care delivery sucks (for a developed nation). It's not good for the economy, it's not good for our collective health, and it's certainly not sustainable.
 
What are you trying to get at? Medical students are staying away from primary care to go into more lucrative fields? Penn isn't the only school out there that has a lot of people matching into specialties. If family medicine made $400,000/year, I still wouldn't even consider going into it.
 
The only thing that shows confusion, and complete ignorance, is your knowledge and understanding of what dermatologists and other high-RVU/cash practice physicians do for their patients. Derm just pops pimples? I stopped reading your post right there. Educate yourself before you pretend you have a leg to stand on and educate me.
 
The only thing that shows confusion, and complete ignorance, is your knowledge and understanding of what dermatologists and other high-RVU/cash practice physicians do for their patients. Derm just pops pimples? I stopped reading your post right there. Educate yourself before you pretend you have a leg to stand on and educate me.

But he has wiki references!!!!
 
But he has wiki references!!!!

4 more exclamation marks would've made it 2x teh funny. 🙄 Clearly I was being facetious. However, I think one would be quite delusional to believe that IF -- in the zero-sum game that is the specialty competition (via RVU scaling) for medicare dollars -- FM and Derm's positions were switched that Derm would be anywhere near as popular as it is now.
 
question! what is illuminati?

images
 
4 more exclamation marks would've made it 2x teh funny. 🙄 Clearly I was being facetious. However, I think one would be quite delusional to believe that IF -- in the zero-sum game that is the specialty competition (via RVU scaling) for medicare dollars -- FM and Derm's positions were switched that Derm would be anywhere near as popular as it is now.

Silly hypotheticals don't strengthen your argument. FM isn't highly reimbursed because it isn't hard to tell fat, old, diabetic smokers with sniffly kids in tow to:
1. Lose Weight
2. Exercise More
3. Lose Weight
4. Quit smoking
5. Sudafed

PS - the patient will do none of those things, and will be back for the same things, sooner than later.
 
What are you trying to get at? Medical students are staying away from primary care to go into more lucrative fields? Penn isn't the only school out there that has a lot of people matching into specialties. If family medicine made $400,000/year, I still wouldn't even consider going into it.

Me neither. I have no dog in this fight -- I detest nearly all patient management heavy specialties. However, the trend with what the US system is doing to the physician workforce is hard to ignore, as MGH internist John Goodson pointed out:

The US physician workforce is unique among developed economies of the world. Virtually all European countries have a broad generalist foundation comprising 70% to 80% of practicing physicians. The United States is the opposite.

That's obviously not due to random chance.
 
The only thing that shows confusion, and complete ignorance, is your knowledge and understanding of what dermatologists and other high-RVU/cash practice physicians do for their patients. Derm just pops pimples? I stopped reading your post right there. Educate yourself before you pretend you have a leg to stand on and educate me.

Silly hypotheticals don't strengthen your argument. FM isn't highly reimbursed because it isn't hard to tell fat, old, diabetic smokers with sniffly kids in tow to:
1. Lose Weight
2. Exercise More
3. Lose Weight
4. Quit smoking
5. Sudafed

PS - the patient will do none of those things, and will be back for the same things, sooner than later.

pot? meet kettle.
 
4 more exclamation marks would've made it 2x teh funny. 🙄 Clearly I was being facetious. However, I think one would be quite delusional to believe that IF -- in the zero-sum game that is the specialty competition (via RVU scaling) for medicare dollars -- FM and Derm's positions were switched that Derm would be anywhere near as popular as it is now.

Bingo!
 
question! what is illuminati?
There's no such thing as Illuminati. Whoever told you such a group exists was mistaken.
 

Derm will be, and has always been more competitive than Family Medicine. Primary care is going to be run by management groups of MD's that oversee NP's and PA's doing the job as a clinician. There's no real hope that this will change, so any medical student with a step 1 score >220 will be staying the hell away from family medicine.
 
I can't believe the earliest posters took such a strange view of this thread.

It's obvious that the RVU mechanism is broken and corrupt. I spend a lot of time working bureaucracies, that's what this game is.

A free market system would more fairly distribute the payment to physicians. We do not have a free market system. Because we live in a very authoritarian country (although the libertarian side is beginning to grow), people, I would guess, are likely to think that the way to fix the RVU mechanism is to give it "more oversight." Which would pretty much mean making it an official government body and thus, less easy to destroy.

It's really not that hard to fix a lot of things in medicine, people just aren't willing to listen to reason.

Tragedy of the commons and what not.
 
question! what is illuminati?

lol

a internet trope that has gained contemporary popularity amongst paranoid conspiracy theorists.

I only use it in this thread to refer to a profoundly influential organization that is largely hidden. RUC is the illuminati of physician compensation, and its decisions are causing widespread negative externalities within health care and the entire US economy
 
A free market system would more fairly distribute the payment to physicians.

Markets exist to most efficiently allocate scarce goods, not to increase "fairness". There are huge problems with the current health care system. Physicians getting a "fair" deal isn't one of them.
 
Derm will be, and has always been more competitive than Family Medicine. Primary care is going to be run by management groups of MD's that oversee NP's and PA's doing the job as a clinician. There's no real hope that this will change, so any medical student with a step 1 score >220 will be staying the hell away from family medicine.

you mean any student with a step 1 score >220 and a giant ego? or who wants to work 9-5 and be left alone? or who wants to impress his med school buddies?

I laugh every time someone makes the argument that someone who specializes and takes care of one aspect of a patient's care has a more difficult or challenging job than the person who takes care of every aspect of that same patient's care.

the dirty little secret that all the aspiring specialists say without actually saying is that primary care is hard, and that has a big thing to do with why they don't want to do it.
 
you mean any student with a step 1 score >220 and a giant ego? or who wants to work 9-5 and be left alone? or who wants to impress his med school buddies?

I laugh every time someone makes the argument that someone who specializes and takes care of one aspect of a patient's care has a more difficult or challenging job than the person who takes care of every aspect of that same patient's care.

the dirty little secret that all the aspiring specialists say without actually saying is that primary care is hard, and that has a big thing to do with why they don't want to do it.

If family medicine is so "hard," why is the residency path that one takes to get there so much shorter than residency paths to high-paying specialties? Why would rad-onc be a longer path than family medicine? The "hardness" of family medicine has nothing to do with the skills demonstrated with a high USMLE Step 1 score. And FYI, family medicine as practiced today is a 9-5 specialty by and large
 
lol

a internet trope that has gained contemporary popularity amongst paranoid conspiracy theorists.

I only use it in this thread to refer to a profoundly influential organization that is largely hidden. RUC is the illuminati of physician compensation, and its decisions are causing widespread negative externalities within health care and the entire US economy

OHhh. okay.

i want to go into primary care peds at this juncture in my life.
 
What are you trying to get at? Medical students are staying away from primary care to go into more lucrative fields? Penn isn't the only school out there that has a lot of people matching into specialties. If family medicine made $400,000/year, I still wouldn't even consider going into it.

Really? Low malpractice, 9-5 gig, weekends off, no call, ship complicated patients to specialists etc. That's a good deal if you ask me. I personally would consider it. I know a cardiologist commanding that figure but pays dearly for it (always on call, 3am cath lab, repeat stent patients). Sorry not worth my sleep.
 
Derm will be, and has always been more competitive than Family Medicine. Primary care is going to be run by management groups of MD's that oversee NP's and PA's doing the job as a clinician. There's no real hope that this will change, so any medical student with a step 1 score >220 will be staying the hell away from family medicine.

Sadly, more correct than it should be.

Students go into medicine and choose a certain specialty for a billion different reasons, but a few highlighted incentives:

1. Help people/warm fuzzies
2. Prestige (hey I'm a doc)
3. Money
4. Lifestyle (control of lifestyle as much as is allowed by medicine)

Basically any competitive specialty will have a mix of the above, from a good spread to maybe a lot of one or two.

There is no doubt Fam Med doctors are needed and are very important, but future doctors-to-be are a bit wary of it because of the situation of medicine today; they are afraid to miss out on some of the payoffs that brought them to medicine and going to school for so freakin' long:
1: won't be able to help people and get warm fuzzies when they have to burn through patients with little meaningful interaction. It also doesn't bring a lot of satisfaction when patients comply with hardly any medical recommendation despite the obvious benefits, or really, common sense.
2: people often trust random websites more than their own doctor
3: reimbursements down the drain. Medicare cuts always on the horizon, have to put your boxing gloves on to get payments from insurance companies.
4: Hit-or-miss, groups allowing less on-call time, but more and more patient visits needed to cover costs and make a living.

Competitive specialties are the ones that still allow physicians to have a bit more of the reasons above, in varying combinations.

As medicine moves away from these payoffs, not only will some students shy away from primary care specialties, they will start to avoid medicine altogether.
 
Of the committee's 29 members, 23 are appointed from subspecialties like cardiology and dermatology. Just three represent primary care, even though half of all Medicare dollars are spent on face-to-face encounters. Their meetings are closed to uninvited observers. Unsurprisingly, over time, the relative values of various procedures far outpaced face-to-face "evaluation and management."

All you have to do is read this little gem to realize why the reimbursement system is so messed up. How do people try to scam Medicare? Not by logging tons of false hours of patient contact time...by reporting to Medicare that they cut off 11 of a patients 10 toes.


If family medicine is so "hard," why is the residency path that one takes to get there so much shorter than residency paths to high-paying specialties? Why would rad-onc be a longer path than family medicine? The "hardness" of family medicine has nothing to do with the skills demonstrated with a high USMLE Step 1 score. And FYI, family medicine as practiced today is a 9-5 specialty by and large

Man, I'm sorry you have such a hard on for specialists for some reason (as evidenced by your comments here and in the match thread). I think the real argument isn't that family medicine is "harder", as the other commenter seemed to suggest, but that it is arguably more important. In fact, many specialties require a great deal of skill and are "harder" in the technical sense than primary care fields, thus the longer residency.

The problem with many specialists though, is that they only treat what is in their specialty. The rad-onc guy who is treating your prostate cancer doesn't give a crap about your diabetes or smoking problem, insofar as they affect his treatment. This will become a major problem with an aging population composed of many people who have multiple diseases to be managed. When you see a match list like Penn's, it does get people a little mad because this is a place which is obviously emphasizing specialization over societal needs, even compared to some other top schools. Can anyone really fault med students trying to match into specialties though? It is where the smart money is right now...we can only hope the reimbursement system changes so it isn't that way anymore.
 
Markets exist to most efficiently allocate scarce goods, not to increase "fairness". There are huge problems with the current health care system. Physicians getting a "fair" deal isn't one of them.
Efficient = fair; economically, they're synonyms. Patients getting a fair deal and spending being efficiently allocated are big deals. Free market payment to physicians = payment from patients.
 
All you have to do is read this little gem to realize why the reimbursement system is so messed up. How do people try to scam Medicare? Not by logging tons of false hours of patient contact time...by reporting to Medicare that they cut off 11 of a patients 10 toes.

Man, I'm sorry you have such a hard on for specialists for some reason (as evidenced by your comments here and in the match thread). I think the real argument isn't that family medicine is "harder", as the other commenter seemed to suggest, but that it is arguably more important. In fact, many specialties require a great deal of skill and are "harder" in the technical sense than primary care fields, thus the longer residency.

The problem with many specialists though, is that they only treat what is in their specialty. The rad-onc guy who is treating your prostate cancer doesn't give a crap about your diabetes or smoking problem, insofar as they affect his treatment. This will become a major problem with an aging population composed of many people who have multiple diseases to be managed. When you see a match list like Penn's, it does get people a little mad because this is a place which is obviously emphasizing specialization over societal needs, even compared to some other top schools. Can anyone really fault med students trying to match into specialties though? It is where the smart money is right now...we can only hope the reimbursement system changes so it isn't that way anymore.

There are PLENTY of people that aren't interested one bit in FM, and it's not because of money. We shouldn't assume ubiquitous greed on the part of medical students. They (Penn) could emphasize primary care all they want to me, but odds are I'm personally not going to be passionate about FM. I do agree that FM is very important, and it could use more docs, but if you loved neurology or general surgery would you go FM simply because society as a whole is short of such physicians?
 
We shouldn't assume ubiquitous greed on the part of medical students. They (Penn) could emphasize primary care all they want to me, but odds are I'm personally not going to be passionate about FM.

No, you're correct. There are two ways these types of results could come about. One is that a very large amount of students naturally interested in derm/optho/radiology/etc. matriculate at Penn each year. The second is that these types of specialties are emphasized by the school and hospital system to make them more appealing than primary care positions. I have no idea which one it is (having never gone to Penn) but I do agree with you that Penn may simply attract more students who want to match into these specialties. In fact, it may have become a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy as more kids enter Penn wanting to go into specialties because of past match lists they have seen.
 
If family medicine is so "hard," why is the residency path that one takes to get there so much shorter than residency paths to high-paying specialties? Why would rad-onc be a longer path than family medicine? The "hardness" of family medicine has nothing to do with the skills demonstrated with a high USMLE Step 1 score. And FYI, family medicine as practiced today is a 9-5 specialty by and large


hahahahahahahaha 🤣

oh wait, you're serious?

The reason FM is only 3 years because it doesn't need to teach you everything you need to know (unlike the other specialties), rather it teaches you how to learn what you need to know as you go along in your career.
 
Derm will be, and has always been more competitive than Family Medicine. Primary care is going to be run by management groups of MD's that oversee NP's and PA's doing the job as a clinician. There's no real hope that this will change, so any medical student with a step 1 score >220 will be staying the hell away from family medicine.


Actually that sounds kind of nice, graduating residency and being able to oversee 5-10 mid-level providers and run a practice. Instead of getting payments from 4 patients per hour you could get a piece of the action from 40 patients per hour.

And the bolded part is pure BS and makes you look like a douche.
 
If family medicine is so "hard," why is the residency path that one takes to get there so much shorter than residency paths to high-paying specialties? Why would rad-onc be a longer path than family medicine? The "hardness" of family medicine has nothing to do with the skills demonstrated with a high USMLE Step 1 score. And FYI, family medicine as practiced today is a 9-5 specialty by and large

FYI:There is a movement (that probably won't happen IMO) to increase the residency for family medicine to four years for that very reason. It has probably the most diverse responsibilities. From psych evaluations, to delivering babies, to minor surgery, to telling fat, old, diabetic patients to do all the things you said earlier. However it will be hard to increase the residency because:

1) Family Doctors are already compensated poorly (relative to other concentrations). Adding a year of residency will worsen matters.
2) Adding a year to residency will possibly deter some aspiring doctors from pursuing family medicine.
3) It is always hard to change anything that has been established for any amount of time.
 
If family medicine is so "hard," why is the residency path that one takes to get there so much shorter than residency paths to high-paying specialties? Why would rad-onc be a longer path than family medicine? The "hardness" of family medicine has nothing to do with the skills demonstrated with a high USMLE Step 1 score. And FYI, family medicine as practiced today is a 9-5 specialty by and large
Family Medicine has a shorter residency than radonc because medical school provides a generalist foundation already. When you go into radonc, you're learning a ton of brand new stuff: radiobiology, medical physics, more in-depth cancer biology, the oncology literature, etc. Why wouldn't radonc be a longer residency when there's so much new information they have to learn? They're not using as much of what they learned in med school. FM, on the other hand, already has that generalist foundation from medical school that will be built up during residency. They don't have to learn a ton of new things like you have to in several specialties.

Plus, like a previous poster mentioned, there's been talk about increasing the FM residency length.

Edit: xantho beat me to it. Should've finished reading the entire thread before posting.
 
Silly hypotheticals don't strengthen your argument. FM isn't highly reimbursed because it isn't hard to tell fat, old, diabetic smokers with sniffly kids in tow to:
1. Lose Weight
2. Exercise More
3. Lose Weight
4. Quit smoking
5. Sudafed

PS - the patient will do none of those things, and will be back for the same things, sooner than later.

It's easy to tell someone to quit smoking and lose weight. It's easy to tell someone to stop having a subdural hematoma. Neither actually accomplishes anything. To do something that will actually stand a good chance of helping a patient with these problems is hard.

Family medicine only looks easy if you're willing to go through the motions and convince yourself that constitutes doing a good job. If you're actually going to try to get results, it's pretty damned hard.
 
Actually that sounds kind of nice, graduating residency and being able to oversee 5-10 mid-level providers and run a practice. Instead of getting payments from 4 patients per hour you could get a piece of the action from 40 patients per hour.

And the bolded part is pure BS and makes you look like a douche.

The bolded part makes me look like a realist. You can't honestly tell me that you know many 220+ students who are looking forward to a rewarding practice in family medicine, do you? I sure don't, and we have a class of 200 students.

If I wanted to be a business man I would have pursued a MBA and worked as a manager. Instead, I want to practice medicine and interact with patients, something that family medicine is slowly being stripped of, while mid-level practitioners gain a foothold in their field of training.

There's a reason why family medicine is being filled by IMG's and US students with poor board scores, and it's because they can't match into the more competitive programs, and they don't like pelvic exams or sitting on the couch for hours at a time, while asking people if they like the color yellow.
 
The bolded part makes me look like a realist. You can't honestly tell me that you know many 220+ students who are looking forward to a rewarding practice in family medicine, do you? I sure don't, and we have a class of 200 students.

If I wanted to be a business man I would have pursued a MBA and worked as a manager. Instead, I want to practice medicine and interact with patients, something that family medicine is slowly being stripped of, while mid-level practitioners gain a foothold in their field of training.

There's a reason why family medicine is being filled by IMG's and US students with poor board scores, and it's because they can't match into the more competitive programs, and they don't like pelvic exams or sitting on the couch for hours at a time, while asking people if they like the color yellow.
I couldn't find the 2010 charting outcomes but according to the NRMP Charting Outcomes for 2009 (http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2009v3.pdf), out of the 1040 US seniors that matched into FM, 380 of them had scores greater than 220. That's a pretty significant proportion. 94 of those 380 had Step I scores higher than 240 (including 3 who had scores greater than 260!). So, in contrast to what you're saying, more than a third of applicants who matched into FM in 2009 had Step I scores higher than 220.
 
The bolded part makes me look like a realist. You can't honestly tell me that you know many 220+ students who are looking forward to a rewarding practice in family medicine, do you? I sure don't, and we have a class of 200 students.

fmstp1.jpg


Whoa, there were apparantly 380 people who you could have saved. I guess they didn't know that with their score >220 they shouldn't have been setting foot near FM. Thats nearly 1/3 of the US MDs who matched FM having a score >220.

I have a few friends in med school who on day 1 knew that they wanted to do family medicine. If their score was 290? Great! More choice to say where they wanted to go.


If I wanted to be a business man I would have pursued a MBA and worked as a manager. Instead, I want to practice medicine and interact with patients, something that family medicine is slowly being stripped of, while mid-level practitioners gain a foothold in their field of training.

There's a reason why family medicine is being filled by IMG's and US students with poor board scores, and it's because they can't match into the more competitive programs, and they don't like pelvic exams or sitting on the couch for hours at a time, while asking people if they like the color yellow.

What year are you? I'm starting to think you haven't hit rotations yet because you have no respect for any profession whose average matching Step1 score is below the field you're interested in.
 
I couldn't find the 2010 charting outcomes but according to the NRMP Charting Outcomes for 2009 (http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2009v3.pdf), out of the 1040 US seniors that matched into FM, 380 of them had scores greater than 220. That's a pretty significant proportion. 94 of those 380 had Step I scores higher than 240 (including 3 who had scores greater than 260!). So, in contrast to what you're saying, more than a third of applicants who matched into FM in 2009 had Step I scores higher than 220.


Good argument!! :laugh:
 
The bolded part makes me look like a realist. You can't honestly tell me that you know many 220+ students who are looking forward to a rewarding practice in family medicine, do you? I sure don't, and we have a class of 200 students.

If I wanted to be a business man I would have pursued a MBA and worked as a manager. Instead, I want to practice medicine and interact with patients, something that family medicine is slowly being stripped of, while mid-level practitioners gain a foothold in their field of training.

There's a reason why family medicine is being filled by IMG's and US students with poor board scores, and it's because they can't match into the more competitive programs, and they don't like pelvic exams or sitting on the couch for hours at a time, while asking people if they like the color yellow.

OOPS. Remove foot from mouth!
 
fmstp1.jpg


Whoa, there were apparantly 380 people who you could have saved. I guess they didn't know that with their score >220 they shouldn't have been setting foot near FM. Thats nearly 1/3 of the US MDs who matched FM having a score >220.

I have a few friends in med school who on day 1 knew that they wanted to do family medicine. If their score was 290? Great! More choice to say where they wanted to go.




What year are you? I'm starting to think you haven't hit rotations yet because you have no respect for any profession whose average matching Step1 score is below the field you're interested in.


Who said that I didn't' have respect for the field or the individuals that choose to go into it, and what does my MS status have anything to do with that what I am saying? I'm a second year medical student, and basically every single FM doctor that I have talked to in the last 10 years has emphatically told me to stay away from their field of practice, and that if they could go back and do it again they would NOT pursue family medicine. Come to think about it, I can't think of any field that I have interacted with that has expressed their unhappiness more than family medicine.

What I said is that a lot of people who go into FM don't have the opportunity to head into the competitive fields that are being discussed in this thread. You said it yourself. Out of everyone who matched into FM, only 94 of them had over a 240. That's less than one person per medical school in the country, which isn't a huge percentage. The average Step 1 score is a 214 (according to the NRMP), which matches PMNR as being the lowest average step 1 score out of all of the fields on the NRMP's data and reports file.

BTW. 48% of FM matched students were IMG's, and they had a stellar step 1 mean of a 201.
 
Last edited:
What I said is that a lot of people who go into FM don't have the opportunity to head into the competitive fields that are being discussed in this thread. You said it yourself. Out of everyone who matched into FM, only 94 of them had over a 240. That's less than one person per medical school in the country, which isn't a huge percentage.

lol, dude. There were about the same # of people with a 240+ in Rad Onc that year. What is your point?
 
Who said that I didn't' have respect for the field or the individuals that choose to go into it, and what does my MS status have anything to do with that what I am saying? I'm a second year medical student, and basically every single FM doctor that I have talked to in the last 10 years has emphatically told me to stay away from their field of practice, and that if they could go back and do it again they would NOT pursue family medicine. Come to think about it, I can't think of any field that I have interacted with that has expressed their unhappiness more than family medicine.

What I said is that a lot of people who go into FM don't have the opportunity to head into the competitive fields that are being discussed in this thread. You said it yourself. Out of everyone who matched into FM, only 94 of them had over a 240. That's less than one person per medical school in the country, which isn't a huge percentage. The average Step 1 score is a 214 (according to the NRMP), which matches PMNR as being the lowest average step 1 score out of all of the fields on the NRMP's data and reports file.

I know people who said they wouldn't do FM again if they could, but I also know people who absolutely love it. You can't trash the entire field because a few nay-sayers say they wouldn't have done it again if they could.

I can tell you have no respect for fields because of your quotes that 1. people should only go into FM if they're forced to by their low Step 1 score, 2. because psychiatrists only sit on a couch all day and ask about feelings of the color yellow, and 3. because OB/gyns are idiots who just do pelvics all day (because those idiots who go into FM could have gone into OB/GYN but didn't want to).

I hope this elitist attitude changes when you do rotations next year. What specialty are you interested in, anyways?
 
Yeah fahimaz7.

<----- not impressed

I know people who said they wouldn't do FM again if they could, but I also know people who absolutely love it. You can't trash the entire field because a few nay-sayers say they wouldn't have done it again if they could.

I can tell you have no respect for fields because of your quotes that 1. people should only go into FM if they're forced to by their low Step 1 score, 2. because psychiatrists only sit on a couch all day and ask about feelings of the color yellow, and 3. because OB/gyns are idiots who just do pelvics all day (because those idiots who go into FM could have gone into OB/GYN but didn't want to).

I hope this elitist attitude changes when you do rotations next year. What specialty are you interested in, anyways?
 
BTW. 48% of FM matched students were IMG's, and they had a stellar step 1 mean of a 201.

And you also have balls to completely look down on step 1 scores when you don't have one yet of your own. It sure would be ashame if you came out on the other side with a "stellar 201".
 
lol, dude. There were about the same # of people with a 240+ in Rad Onc that year. What is your point?

44% of radonc matched students (US and IMG) had above a 240, with a mean of a 238. FM had 4% of their students (US and IMG) above a 240, with a mean of a ~209.

How many of the total FM students, who were a successful match, could have gotten into something like radonc? Out of the ~1050 US students who matched into family medicine, I wonder how many of them did so b/c it was their dream residency field? I bet if you surveyed that lot of 1050, quite a few of them would say that it was not their dream, but it was the "best that they could do" with what they had (grades, boards, letters, etc).
 
44% of radonc matched students (US and IMG) had above a 240, with a mean of a 238. FM had 4% of their students (US and IMG) above a 240, with a mean of a ~209.

How many of the total FM students, who were a successful match, could have gotten into something like radonc? Out of the ~1050 US students who matched into family medicine, I wonder how many of them did so b/c it was their dream residency field? I bet if you surveyed that lot of 1050, quite a few of them would say that it was not their dream, but it was the "best that they could do" with what they had (grades, boards, letters, etc).

I never said they had similar boards scores, I just was commenting on your "only 1 per medical school" comment.

Besides, my real question is, what is your point.

You have made the argument that FM has lower board scores, or a lower % of 240+. What are you attempting to say?

--They are less intelligent?
--They won't be as competent of physicians?
--They aren't competitive applicants?

I'm just trying to understand what point you are trying to make.
 
I know people who said they wouldn't do FM again if they could, but I also know people who absolutely love it. You can't trash the entire field because a few nay-sayers say they wouldn't have done it again if they could.

I can tell you have no respect for fields because of your quotes that 1. people should only go into FM if they're forced to by their low Step 1 score, 2. because psychiatrists only sit on a couch all day and ask about feelings of the color yellow, and 3. because OB/gyns are idiots who just do pelvics all day (because those idiots who go into FM could have gone into OB/GYN but didn't want to).

I hope this elitist attitude changes when you do rotations next year. What specialty are you interested in, anyways?

ENT or Rads

Yeah fahimaz7.

<----- not impressed

Good thing I'm not trying to impress you.

And you also have balls to completely look down on step 1 scores when you don't have one yet of your own. It sure would be ashame if you came out on the other side with a "stellar 201".

The comments about the colors and pelvic exams are not trying to make fun of either field, it's purely pointing out that some people that go into FM would hate to pursue either psychiatry or OB. Have you not met classmates who think pelvic exams are nasty? Have you not heard your fellow classmates express their discontent with psychotherapy sessions?

You can make me sound like an ass all day long, but I'm not the only medical student in the world who doesn't want to do pelvic exams day in and day out, and I'm surely not the only one who doesn't want to go into psychiatry.

PS. I'll be sure to send you an update on my step score in July. Being that I'm in the top quintile in my class, I doubt I'll be scoring a 201 on step 1.
 
44% of radonc matched students (US and IMG) had above a 240, with a mean of a 238. FM had 4% of their students (US and IMG) above a 240, with a mean of a ~209.

How many of the total FM students, who were a successful match, could have gotten into something like radonc? Out of the ~1050 US students who matched into family medicine, I wonder how many of them did so b/c it was their dream residency field? I bet if you surveyed that lot of 1050, quite a few of them would say that it was not their dream, but it was the "best that they could do" with what they had (grades, boards, letters, etc).


Again you putting out ******ed hypothetical situations/statistics based on your elitist preconceived notions of specialty really does and proves nothing.
 
I don't have a "hard on" for specialty medicine. I enjoy this argument, first, because I think that it is important, and understanding the various implications on the future of medicine are important concepts for the community of pre-physicians to learn and digest. I do have a problem with the straw men that are set up of specialists as rent-seeking *******s who don't care for patients, as evidenced by their not being family medicine/general internist physicians. The European model of health care delivery is crumbling around the foundations at exactly the moment we're trying to implement some of those same ideas into our system. At tax rates that Americans are never going to pay, European nations are having terrible times trying to meet expectations. I don't have the answers, but I think the reductive, zero-sum arguments of "lets take from the specialists and give it to the GPs!" isn't going to solve the economic problems of health care, while at the same time destroying some of the great things that our system provides us, and the world. Are problems are driven by demographics and policy. Too many boomers, and too much end-of-life care. But I'm not the one to tell people to die quicker, and I'm not sure any body else is either. Tough problems all the way around. Anyone who says that the answers are easy or simple is deluded. There are just too many entrenched interests who have figured out how to make the current system work for them.
 
Again you putting out ******ed hypothetical situations/statistics based on your elitist preconceived notions of specialty really does and proves nothing.

Don't you learn not to say something is "******ed" in medical school?

(Insert Burnett's Law reference here.)
 
Top Bottom