a dentist makes ONLY 55k a year.

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A6project

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.I decided to update so that new pre-dent students can see dentistry from a financial standpoint. I wrote it back in Oct. 2011. So you might need to have updated data but overall, it'll be pretty accurate. Just heads up. Numbers are daunting, yet I've seen and known several dentists doing very well (financially). Dentistry is a great profession and if you are as passionate as I am, you should not worry about the debt. If there's a will, there's a way. I want you guys to be creative and find your way to knock off debt and set yourself up for success. Good luck, future colleagues! .J

.(AZ = no state D-school. I knew I will be attending private school. I won't get accepted to other state schools where I can change my residency. Tuition and cost of attending will be based on private schools. I picked these 3 schools as they were my top 3. Excellent schools ).

.(Tuition probably went up more since 2011).
.University of Pacific: cost of attending (including tuition and living costs): $350, 000
Creighton University: cost of attending (including tuition and living costs): $284,000 .
.Arizona School of Dentistry: cost of attending (including tuition and living costs): $346, 000.

. Financial Aid .
.1) Unsubsidized Stafford = about 40k per school year.... 6.8 % interest.
.2) Graduate + = covers rest of your loan .... 7.9% interest, .
.
I arbitrarily picked 350k and 7.9% for the loan & 4 yr instead of 3. Let's say that you make 120k right after D-school. (some dentists argued that 120k was too much, etc) It really depends on the area I guess. Use your state/city average entry level dentist salary). For this case, I will be using 120k salary. .
. Loan Calculator.
.Loan Balance: .
.$350,000.00 .​
.Adjusted Loan Balance: .
.$364,583.33 .​
.Loan Interest Rate: .
.7.90% .​
.Loan Fees: .
.4.00% .​
.Loan Term: .
.15 years .​
.Minimum Payment: .
.$0.00 .​
.Enrollment Status: .
.Graduating Soon .​
.Degree Program: .
.Doctor (D.M.D.) .​
.Total Years in College: .
.4 years .​
.Average Debt per Year: .
.$87,500.00 .​

.Monthly Loan Payment:.
.$3,463.13 .​
.Number of Payments: .
.181 .​

.Cumulative Payments: .
.$623,364.63 .​
.Total Interest Paid: .
.$273,364.63 .​
.http://www.finaid.org/calculators/scripts/loanpayments.cgi.

. Federal Tax Bracket.
.Unmarried individuals (other than surviving spouses and heads of households).
.If Taxable Income Is:.​
.The Tax Is:.​
.Not over $8,700.
.10% of the taxable income.
.Over $8,700 but not over $35,350.
.$870 plus 15% of the excess over $8,700.
.Over $35,350 but not over $85,650.
.$4,867.50 plus 25% of the excess over $35,350.
.Over $85,650 but not over $178,650.
.$17,442.50 plus 28% of the excess over $85,650.
.Over $178,650 but not over $388,350.
.$43,482.50 plus 33% of the excess over $178,650.
.Over $388,350.
.$112,683.50 plus 35% of the excess over $388,350.
.Standard deduction.​
.$5,950.

Your anticipated income tax = $24,557. (Based on 120k salary)
AZ State tax = $5,088.
Your total tax =$24,557 + $5,088 = $29,645
Loan Payment = $3,463/month ($41,556/year)

Fed & State tax and loan payments : $71,201.

$120,000 - $71,201 = $48,799 (after everything)

.----.
.Some dentist pointed out that you may have to pay for malpractice, disability, and health insurance. (depending on where you work) Let's say that it's $6,000/year.

.
CE courses. I have no idea how expensive they are….


So far, $48,799 - $6,000 = $42,799 (excluding CE courses) +/- some amounts


Something to keep in mind.
- you may get paid more than 120k
- your income goes up

- bonus
- IBR (has pros and cons tho)
- Loan repayment program (basically bonus)

- car payment
- mortgage
- support a wife, a family
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Thanks for posting. Few people actually take the time to delve into the financial issues associated with dentistry. Your calculations seem solid to me, except that 120K is a starting salary, and over time you should be able to make more than that.

Of course, if you are cursed with the desire to live in any of the highly populated city centers on the east or west coast, then that salary might even be generous.

Although it might seem a bit grim, this doesn't mean that dentistry isn't a great career. It offers stability and job security that is more and more rare these days. It offers the power and flexibility of running your own business. But a big money maker...? Probably not.
 
1. You get an A in math and financial planning 101
2. You add creedence to the saying you live off your net and not your gross

eliwoohoo said:
Although it might seem a bit grim, this doesn't mean that dentistry isn't a great career. It offers stability and job security that is more and more rare these days. It offers the power and flexibility of running your own business. But a big money maker...? Probably not.
Click to expand...

3. Agreed.
 
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If you decide to attend an expensive OOS or private school, and plan on doing general dentistry in a over saturated area, the best option for you is to consider the Income Based Repayment (IBR) plan.

The amount paid back to loans is capped at 10%, and you pay it over 20 years. After the 20 years, no matter how much left of the loan you have, it gets forgiven. So if you're making 120k/year, you'll be paying 12k/year in loans, instead of ~42k. Net difference of ~30k. So ~85k doesn't sound that bad right?

Also, they are cutting the unsubsidized stafford loans, so you get charged interest the moment you receive any loans. But if you're going with the IBR, the amount you owe doesn't really matter.
 
A6project said:
Dentistry is my passion and I wanna serve the underprivileged so money is not my concern but
please take a look at this. Any thoughts??



rough estimate
University of Pacific: cost of attending (including tuition and living costs): $350, 000

Creighton University: cost of attending (including tuition and living costs): $284,000
Arizona School of Dentistry: cost of attending (including tuition and living costs): $346, 000

Financial Aid
1) subsidized = about 10k per school year (more like 8500)... this is best one, no interest till after graduation (6.8% interest)
2) unsubsidized = about 35k per school year.... not so great, 6.8 interest, and it starts running the moment you accept
3) graduate plus = pretty much unlimited.... this is the worst at 7.9% interest, and starts running the instant you accept.

But I arbitrarily picked 350k and 7.9& for all the loan. And 4 year instead of 3 year.

Loan Calculator
Loan Balance:
$350,000.00 ​
Adjusted Loan Balance:
$364,583.33 ​
Loan Interest Rate:
7.90%​
Loan Fees:
4.00%​
Loan Term:
15 years​
Minimum Payment:
$0.00 ​
Enrollment Status:
Graduating Soon​
Degree Program:
Doctor (D.M.D.)​
Total Years in College:
4 years​
Average Debt per Year:
$87,500.00 ​

Monthly Loan Payment:
$3,463.13 ​
Number of Payments:
181​

Cumulative Payments:
$623,364.63 ​
Total Interest Paid:
$273,364.63 ​
http://www.finaid.org/calculators/scripts/loanpayments.cgi

Federal Tax Bracket
Unmarried individuals (other than surviving spouses and heads of households)
If Taxable Income Is:​
The Tax Is:​
Not over $8,700
10% of the taxable income
Over $8,700 but not over $35,350
$870 plus 15% of the excess over $8,700
Over $35,350 but not over $85,650
$4,867.50 plus 25% of the excess over $35,350
Over $85,650 but not over $178,650
$17,442.50 plus 28% of the excess over $85,650
Over $178,650 but not over $388,350
$43,482.50 plus 33% of the excess over $178,650
Over $388,350
$112,683.50 plus 35% of the excess over $388,350
Standard deduction​
$5,950
Based on IRA calculator, (this may not be true. Not sure what percent is state taxes....
http://www.irs.gov/individuals/article/0,,id=96196,00.html


Your anticipated income tax is $24,557. (Based on the salary of $120, 000)
Loan Payment is $3463 a month. In a year, it is $41,556 in total.
Total loan payment & Taxes : $66,113.

$ 120,000 - $ 66,113 = $53,887 (after everything)


what do you think????
Click to expand...
\

If dentistry is your passion and you want to help the underserved, the best thing that you CAN do is have a big, thriving practice, which will not only give you the personal piece of mind of NOT having to worry about one's finances, but it tends to also allow you to take care of more of the underserved since you tend to not be as worried about how much production your doing to pay the bills for your office and staff.

All it the Obama class warfare version of dentisty ;) Let the 1%, who already pay and provide for a far higher percentage of people, pay even more! :mad: Or in this case, let the $$ you make on the 1% (or in reality the say top 50-60%) allow you to treat more of the bottom 40% or so AND allow you to provide for yourself and any future family members
 
Based on the thread title, you have crafted an extremely narrow portrait that ultimately fails to reflect the overall health or solvency of dentistry as a career path.

This example in no way suggests that the profession is 'grim' in nature or is otherwise poor in terms of financial stability or income potential.

It is just that - an example.

I think the crux of this discusion revolves around the cost of education - a factor that can almost always be influenced to some degree by the student (OOS/Private vs. Public Schools, Scholarships, Family Support, etc.). And a factor that becomes relevant with ANY professional school pathway.

You could make these exact same financial points for law school, medical school, business school, or any other professional program.

What's the advice? Go to the cheapest school you can go to unless you have some type of financial support. These private schools are outrageously expensive. If you have no other choice then you should try and get as much support as possible from outside institutions/individuals. Every year, hundreds of millions of dollars are passed up in unclaimed scholarship money.

Finally, remember that dentistry, like other facets of healthcare, features a WIDE spectrum of income potentials that are heavily predicated on skill, location, experience, and a multitude of other factors. There are certainly GP's that earn 100k or less - but there are also plenty of GP's that garner 400K+ per year.
 
you are very right.

dentistry has so many aspects. I can't just look at loans and 120k salary. It varies where you work, etccc like all you mention (im lazy lol)

The reason why I have made this post was that I wanted to punch numbers in and to hear what people think.

I posted up this on Dental Town so that dentists can give me advice and put it up here cuz I wanted to hear what current dental students think..

I am applying to HPSP and wanted to make sure that I am 100% committed. I don't ask my professors who wrote me LOR for a dental school to write me another one for something that I am unsure about.
 
A6project said:
Dentistry is my passion and I wanna serve the underprivileged so money is not my concern but
please take a look at this. Any thoughts??



rough estimate
University of Pacific: cost of attending (including tuition and living costs): $350, 000

Creighton University: cost of attending (including tuition and living costs): $284,000
Arizona School of Dentistry: cost of attending (including tuition and living costs): $346, 000

Financial Aid
1) subsidized = about 10k per school year (more like 8500)... this is best one, no interest till after graduation (6.8% interest)
2) unsubsidized = about 35k per school year.... not so great, 6.8 interest, and it starts running the moment you accept
3) graduate plus = pretty much unlimited.... this is the worst at 7.9% interest, and starts running the instant you accept.

But I arbitrarily picked 350k and 7.9& for all the loan. And 4 year instead of 3 year.

Loan Calculator
Loan Balance:
$350,000.00 ​
Adjusted Loan Balance:
$364,583.33 ​
Loan Interest Rate:
7.90%​
Loan Fees:
4.00%​
Loan Term:
15 years​
Minimum Payment:
$0.00 ​
Enrollment Status:
Graduating Soon​
Degree Program:
Doctor (D.M.D.)​
Total Years in College:
4 years​
Average Debt per Year:
$87,500.00 ​

Monthly Loan Payment:
$3,463.13 ​
Number of Payments:
181​

Cumulative Payments:
$623,364.63 ​
Total Interest Paid:
$273,364.63 ​
http://www.finaid.org/calculators/scripts/loanpayments.cgi

Federal Tax Bracket
Unmarried individuals (other than surviving spouses and heads of households)
If Taxable Income Is:​
The Tax Is:​
Not over $8,700
10% of the taxable income
Over $8,700 but not over $35,350
$870 plus 15% of the excess over $8,700
Over $35,350 but not over $85,650
$4,867.50 plus 25% of the excess over $35,350
Over $85,650 but not over $178,650
$17,442.50 plus 28% of the excess over $85,650
Over $178,650 but not over $388,350
$43,482.50 plus 33% of the excess over $178,650
Over $388,350
$112,683.50 plus 35% of the excess over $388,350
Standard deduction​
$5,950
Based on IRA calculator, (this may not be true. Not sure what percent is state taxes....
http://www.irs.gov/individuals/article/0,,id=96196,00.html


Your anticipated income tax is $24,557. (Based on the salary of $120, 000)
Loan Payment is $3463 a month. In a year, it is $41,556 in total.
Total loan payment & Taxes : $66,113.

$ 120,000 - $ 66,113 = $53,887 (after everything)


what do you think????
Click to expand...

I am glad to see you did your homework. Many new dentist jump into even more debt and become enslaved by the system. That why I get upset when people say dentist are rich when many dont see that whats left over is not as much as one would expect. In the USA they talk about taxing the well to do and dentist are in that group.

Having said this its not imposiible to become well to do, but requires some work. The key is not taking on new debt. Many of my classmates after graduation went out and got a Porsche or a vette and a house. this is within a coiuple of months of graduation. And before you know it many are living pay check to paycheck and only two missed paychecks away from bankruptcy. The real money in dentistry will come from your own practice. you can earn anywhere from $500,000 to 1 million as an owner if you dont let you debt snowball. Several of my classmates have hit the million mark and now have moved to new ventures selling their practice and buying franchises. One of my class first millionaire lived way below his means after graduation. He lived in a studio for 5 years, had no furniture, a crappy car but he saved his money. He saved about $200,000 and opened a small three chair practice with only needing a small working capital loan from the bank rather than a full loan for a practice and working capital. So he profited his first year because he took on very little debt and his clinical overhead dropped. Bank loan is a big chunck of over head for a practice he basically had non and prepaid his loan and then got to kept the rest. He grew his patient population and before you know it he opened a second clinic and hired a dentist to assist him. He now had 4 clinics and seldom works (treats) he checks his clinics frequently but he has a better life now.

the key is controll your debt. Dont let it get away and watch out for credit cards. Dont be hell bent on getting an iphone everytime a new one comes out. and Save. The more you save and the more you can apply to your own clinic the less you need to borrow.
 
good advice here from all; the moral of the story; the real wealth and happiness in dentistry come from owning your own office. be careful and take your time finding a practice; but once you find a practice that works for you your good to go. just look at the numbers; most dental practices gross anywhere from $500K-$1million + per year. the average overhead of a dental practice (this is including staff salaries and all expenses) is around 60%; so do the math and see how much you can make. i know people who have very small practices with only 2 employees and see only a small amount of patients (only work 4 days/week) and only grosses $400K in his office; however his overhead is only 50% so he makes $200K/yr working 4 days a week. do you know how easy it is to collect $400K/yr in dentistry? thats an average of like $1500/day which is a crown and a few fillings. the key is to acquire your own practice as soon as possible.
 
A6project said:
what do you think????
Click to expand...

Finally a pre-dent who is thinking about the reality of the cost of education. I have talked about the consequence of excessive loan debt many times and having lived the reality you described, I have the experience to justify my position.

Couple of comments:
1) The unspoken pressure of getting a high paying job that starts day 1 after graduation. Looking at the reality of 3k+ of loan payment every month before rent, food, and life costs makes you think twice at buying a practice or even going to work for a dentist who can mentor you and improve your dentistry. Instead, you are going to contribute to corporate dentistry and go through that hell, including being forced to do molar endo, surgery when you don't feel comfortable, or do treatment you disagree with just to produce dentistry. Yes you can service your expenses and you hope it only lasts a year, but this can drag into many years. I'm sure people on here will claim they have great experiences with this type of practice, but the vast majority of corporate or chain positions just plain suck.

2) You should consider 30 year repayment. Lock into a long term low payment as a safety net in case times get tough but plan on paying on the 15 year schedule. Most of the time there is no penalty for paying more but there is significant penalty for paying below your loans.

3) Try your calculations again, but do it with 200k of loan debt. Then try it with 300k of loan debt. I would put the opportunity-cost breaking point of a dental education vs total debt at 300k, meaning it just isn't worth it past this point. Yes I'm sure somebody will post some dumb in response like "specialize and your problems will be solved", but you have to go into dental school with the belief you will love general practice and must be economically planning for that in case you don't make it into residency, plus remember there are often times additional costs with speciality education. So importantly, look at state schools or lower cost private schools versus "its a beautiful school and nice weather" but costs 1.5-2x more.

Hope this helps.
 
A6project said:
Your anticipated income tax is $24,557. (Based on the salary of $120, 000)
Loan Payment is $3463 a month. In a year, it is $41,556 in total.
Total loan payment & Taxes : $66,113.

$ 120,000 - $ 66,113 = $53,887 (after everything)


what do you think????
Click to expand...

Those sound very realistic.... all of them.
There is one large variable you haven't taken into consideration.... What about when you have 10+ years of dentistry experience? Chances are, your income will be higher than 120k, if you play your cards right, it "should" be touching 200k.

Besides, 55k pure take home is good money especially for a new graduate, thats about $4500 in your pocket (enough to have a new car, a decent appartement, and who knows, if you have a wife that also works, the two of you will be able to afford a decent suburban home)
 
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SeattleRDH said:
I don't know why anyone would NOT pursue HPSP or some other loan forgiveness program.
Click to expand...

One of the main reasons tends to be that while in d-school with the debt piling up, a loan forgiveness program with sometype of commitment for a period of time might seem like a great deal, but as can often be the case with the right attitude and work ethic when one hits private practice, that time commitment attached to the loan forgiveness program can very well actually end up costing one more in income potential than it saves one via the forgiveness. Make no doubt about it, for a fair number of d-school grads, it's a good program, but its not a match for everyone
 
A6project said:
Thanks again for all the advice and comments.

when all of my applications for dental school was submitted, I realized that cost of attending is far bigger than I expected. And I have been thought which method is the best way for me to pay off the loan (scholarship, borrow from parents...)

I think I have been losing sleep intensely especially past a month and half lol and yesterday I finally found a way. Yayyyy!

(I updated and punched numbers more accurately on Dental Town.)
Loan Repayment Plan caps your payment 15% as long as your monthly payment is less than the 10 year plan. (based on 350k, you will be paying 1200 to 1500 monthly). it is the difference between 15% of ur income and 150% of poverty guideline. Basically after 25 yrs, your loan is forgiven, and the amount forgiven will be taxable. (however, with 120,000 salary you are already 28% bracket. with the amount forgiven, your tax bracket will go up to 35% which is the highest. Yet still it is only 7% more and FAR Better than paying 3500 a month)

That being said, if you do the math correctly, you get around 74k a year (120k salary based). There were some dentists saying that 74k still not much in dental town. However, I don't need a 5bath/5bed house with a downtown view on a hill or M3. I am perfectly fine with a house like 3bed/2bath in an average neighborhood and a 35k car. Happiness is relative and from within.

Plus, you are right. Your salary will go up every year. I just narrowly wanted to focus on first 4-5 years right out of the school. I heard that those years are the most financially challenging.

I will be saving money so that I can buy a practice soon, make it grow, help out at a local community clinic, and volunteer.

For those who are gradated 15 years ago, you guys had cheap tuition. for those graduated 10 years ago, you guys had a loan consolidation to lower below inflation rates. Now our generation has Incomebased payment. Dentistry is awesome and great I think.

I love dentistry and it is my utmost desire and passion. I was pretty scared about living by a paycheck by a paycheck. and now I am super relieved. :D
Now I finally get to focus back on interviews, schools, hopefully I get great news in December!! :)

PS Unlucky, AZ dont have a state school so I probably will end up in a private school. And even if IBR get stopped, i just do a 30yr payback plan like a dentist mentioned up there and deal with it. I think i will take my chances in life.
Click to expand...

Just a little note: if you are going to the over populated cities like LA or NYC on your first year out of dental school, you WON'T make $120K/y salary. You will be lucky to get a full time employment which may go only as high as $60K-$90K.:scared:
 
I thought that at the end of IBR, the amount of loan that is forgiven counts as taxable income. If thats true, be prepared for a large, one-time bill from the IRS.
 
for 120k, you are under 28% federal tax bracket. With those huge taxable loan(after 25 yr), you will only go to 33% tax bracket (which is highest). That's only 7% difference. Still better than paying off 3500 a month. Plus you will be much more financially solid and probably have all the toys you want at that point.

I called Salie Mae to send me a copy of its promissory notes. if anyone interested, I let you know about all the fine prints, exemptions, regulations, etc. Just msg me.
 
1) live well below your means
2) invest wisely
3) understand boom and bust cycles of the US economy
4) Understand Wealth preservation is more important than wealth creation in a downward market

There is certainly some truth to the old adage "It is not how much you make, but how much you save.."
Even during the boom years of 90's and parts of 2000's, I repeatedly warned my younger colleagues with regarding to the imbalances of US economy (bubble economy). Of course no one ever listened to me at the time. Hypnotized by the contemporary "goldilocks" economy, they were too busy buying luxury cars and boats with cheap money financed through home equity loans. The aftermath of a bubble bursting was inconsequential to them. In the end, all the paper wealth and material possessions that they accumulated during the boom years vaporized. I was able to preserve most of the wealth that I gained during that period through persistent hard work and sheer luck. I liquidated my dental clinic towards the end of '09 at the tender age of 45 and happily retired since...:)
 
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I think this is a great illustration of points few students explore before they sign the dotted line! The most important number is what will be your monthly obligation...

There are additional costs as well...malpractice, disability insurance, health, life, etc. Then of course you could open your own place or buy a practice after a few years and your income will be MUCH higher than $120,000. Also, you could go somewhere less saturated and make more and have a lower cost of living.

I think people need to realize that going to an expensive school and then "living the life" in California or anywhere that is desirable to live is setting yourself up for a BIG letdown...

It used to be that one could do anything, make mistakes, and still be successful, but now there will be winners and losers....

It brings up the fact that it might be wise to plan ahead where you go to undergraduate or maybe take a year off and work to get in-state status at a cheap state dental school.

I had a friend that didn't get into dental school and took a year off and worked and got not only preferential treatment due to in-state status (easier to get in), he saved a BUNDLE - came out with only $100,000 in loans. And he had fun for that year off. (you have the rest of your life to work) He graduated a year after me, but is sitting pretty now!

Smart Man? Yep
 
To the OP,
I like the way you operate. You have all the skills to run a great business. This is a skill not every dentist has. You will anticipate rather than react and this is very important. I will admit, when I applied to d-school I thought it was going to be my ticket to easy street but soon figured otherwise after completing the same exact calculations as you (including taxes etc.). Being prepared to handle this complex situation after d-school will require much preperation and organization which needs to take place early on. If one doesn't face this reality now they are likely to be confused and frustrated when they can't buy a proche or pay their bills come graduation. The possiblities of a 3 day work week and a 6 figure income have evaporated by the intense heat of 400k debt loads. If this monstrosity isn't managed properly, it will be insurmountable.

The way I see it, when dentistry became more lucrative, parasitic banks saw an opportunity and latched on to siphon off what they could by thier debt mechanism. Knowing that dentists have a good earning potential, they laid claim to our future income (the school takes the one time tuition fee and the bank takes the interest on the loan) so the flow of money goes into their account as opposed to our pocket. Essentially, dentistry is still very lucrative but it is the banks and schools who reap the benefits!!! I believe this is the heart and soul of the problem.
 
I think this is good to look at but as other people have said I think it's also good to look at future income growth, opportunity gain of going to UoP (1 year of earnings can be subtracted from debt) and the fact that most schools are not 400k+.
 
i think the OP posted the same question on dentaltown. its funny to see the difference between the responses of predents to practicing dentists, i think everyone reading should check this same thread on DT and see what dentists are saying.
 
bingo
i wanted to see what 'practicing' dentists and 'soon to be' dentists think
 
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Holy crap! we're all screwed!

Nicekid23 said:
i think the OP posted the same question on dentaltown. its funny to see the difference between the responses of predents to practicing dentists, i think everyone reading should check this same thread on DT and see what dentists are saying.
Click to expand...
 
Nicekid23 said:
i think the OP posted the same question on dentaltown. its funny to see the difference between the responses of predents to practicing dentists, i think everyone reading should check this same thread on DT and see what dentists are saying.
Click to expand...

It's always interesting to see how people on this forum can get caught up in the passion of the admissions process and get blinded to the true cost of dental education. I have always said that you should apply and go to the school where you will get a great education, 'feels right' and is reasonably priced. Think twice about the school that is 'on the expensive side' but 'has great weather' or 'has a great sim lab' and instead 'gets the job done for a reasonable tuition.'

:thumbup:
 
As a working dentist; do you think 150k in debt is managable for a new dentist? or would this situation be pretty dififcult too?


mike3kgt said:
It's always interesting to see how people on this forum can get caught up in the passion of the admissions process and get blinded to the true cost of dental education. I have always said that you should apply and go to the school where you will get a great education, 'feels right' and is reasonably priced. Think twice about the school that is 'on the expensive side' but 'has great weather' or 'has a great sim lab' and instead 'gets the job done for a reasonable tuition.'

:thumbup:
Click to expand...
 
I wonder if 120,000$ is the norm for a starting salary now in this economic climate. I was offered 65,ooo$ right of school in 2005. I was expecting 100,000$ back then. I ended up declining the offer and doing an AEGD and then pedo residency instead.
I have several friends that struggle to piece together multiple part time jobs.
 
All of your calculations are very, very realistic. However, I don't agree with starting salary. It really depends where you're going to be working, but I think a new associate best case scenario would be $100k. That's if you can find something fulltime.

Definitely look into consolidation through DirectLoans. I'm on a 30 year repayment plan. It took my monthly payment from $2900 to $3400. I can always pay more without any penalty.

If you're new to dental school, go to the cheapest school. Live well below your means. Don't go crazy with going out/toys. Get a roommate in school. Make a budget and live with it. While in school of done, it helps if your spouse is working to contribute. My husband pays rent/saves money and does our retirement. My paycheck pays for my loans primarily.
 
A6project said:
Your anticipated income tax is $24,557. (Based on the salary of $120, 000)
Loan Payment is $3463 a month. In a year, it is $41,556 in total.
Total loan payment & Taxes : $66,113.

$ 120,000 - $ 66,113 = $53,887 (after everything)

what do you think????
Click to expand...

1) State Income Tax +Local in some locations
2) Social Security witholding
3) Medicare witholding
4) 120k/yr is rather difficult to find 1st yr. I had an offer for that, but it was in a medicaid mill, and involved lots of "pappoose" time, didn't take that position. Actual work that you might want to do helping people, you'd be doing well to get 100k.
 
yunowu said:
1) live well below your means
2) invest wisely
3) understand boom and bust cycles of the US economy
4) Understand Wealth preservation is more important than wealth creation in a downward market

There is certainly some truth to the old adage "It is not how much you make, but how much you save.."
Even during the boom years of 90's and parts of 2000's, I repeatedly warned my younger colleagues with regarding to the imbalances of US economy (bubble economy). Of course no one ever listened to me at the time. Hypnotized by the contemporary "goldilocks" economy, they were too busy buying luxury cars and boats with cheap money financed through home equity loans. The aftermath of a bubble bursting was inconsequential to them. In the end, all the paper wealth and material possessions that they accumulated during the boom years vaporized. I was able to preserve most of the wealth that I gained during that period through persistent hard work and sheer luck. I liquidated my dental clinic towards the end of '09 at the tender age of 45 and happily retired since...:)
Click to expand...
This is a great advice. The less you spend the less you will need to make.
 
A6project said:
Dentistry is my passion and I wanna serve the underprivileged so money is not my concern but
please take a look at this. Any thoughts??



rough estimate
University of Pacific: cost of attending (including tuition and living costs): $350, 000

Creighton University: cost of attending (including tuition and living costs): $284,000
Arizona School of Dentistry: cost of attending (including tuition and living costs): $346, 000

Financial Aid
1) subsidized = about 10k per school year (more like 8500)... this is best one, no interest till after graduation (6.8% interest)
2) unsubsidized = about 35k per school year.... not so great, 6.8 interest, and it starts running the moment you accept
3) graduate plus = pretty much unlimited.... this is the worst at 7.9% interest, and starts running the instant you accept.

But I arbitrarily picked 350k and 7.9& for all the loan. And 4 year instead of 3 year.

Loan Calculator
Loan Balance:
$350,000.00 ​
Adjusted Loan Balance:
$364,583.33 ​
Loan Interest Rate:
7.90%​
Loan Fees:
4.00%​
Loan Term:
15 years​
Minimum Payment:
$0.00 ​
Enrollment Status:
Graduating Soon​
Degree Program:
Doctor (D.M.D.)​
Total Years in College:
4 years​
Average Debt per Year:
$87,500.00 ​

Monthly Loan Payment:
$3,463.13 ​
Number of Payments:
181​

Cumulative Payments:
$623,364.63 ​
Total Interest Paid:
$273,364.63 ​
http://www.finaid.org/calculators/scripts/loanpayments.cgi

Federal Tax Bracket
Unmarried individuals (other than surviving spouses and heads of households)
If Taxable Income Is:​
The Tax Is:​
Not over $8,700
10% of the taxable income
Over $8,700 but not over $35,350
$870 plus 15% of the excess over $8,700
Over $35,350 but not over $85,650
$4,867.50 plus 25% of the excess over $35,350
Over $85,650 but not over $178,650
$17,442.50 plus 28% of the excess over $85,650
Over $178,650 but not over $388,350
$43,482.50 plus 33% of the excess over $178,650
Over $388,350
$112,683.50 plus 35% of the excess over $388,350
Standard deduction​
$5,950
Based on IRA calculator, (this may not be true. Not sure what percent is state taxes....
http://www.irs.gov/individuals/article/0,,id=96196,00.html


Your anticipated income tax is $24,557. (Based on the salary of $120, 000)
Loan Payment is $3463 a month. In a year, it is $41,556 in total.
Total loan payment & Taxes : $66,113.

$ 120,000 - $ 66,113 = $53,887 (after everything)


what do you think????
Click to expand...

Greetings,

1. The monthly student loan payment is rather high. You can take up to 30 years to repay the loan and in such case, it is much less.

2. If you have wife, kids then you can claim on your tax deduction along with your cost of practice. And if you are single, you will get back some taxes at the end of the year. That will increase your overall net income. I use my yearly tax return to help paying for my student loans.

3. 120K at a starting point. In a few years with good practice, you will make much more than this. DP
 
yunowu said:
1) live well below your means
2) invest wisely
3) understand boom and bust cycles of the us economy
4) understand wealth preservation is more important than wealth creation in a downward market

there is certainly some truth to the old adage "it is not how much you make, but how much you save.."
even during the boom years of 90's and parts of 2000's, i repeatedly warned my younger colleagues with regarding to the imbalances of us economy (bubble economy). Of course no one ever listened to me at the time. Hypnotized by the contemporary "goldilocks" economy, they were too busy buying luxury cars and boats with cheap money financed through home equity loans. The aftermath of a bubble bursting was inconsequential to them. In the end, all the paper wealth and material possessions that they accumulated during the boom years vaporized. I was able to preserve most of the wealth that i gained during that period through persistent hard work and sheer luck. I liquidated my dental clinic towards the end of '09 at the tender age of 45 and happily retired since...:)
Click to expand...

you are the man!!!
 
I agree with the live well below your means! this is so important. You can really expand the amount that you can invest in the future by living low below your means, saving a emergency fund, and saving for retirement. The rest should all be considered overhead till you get debts under control.
 
Is it a definite that IBR is going to be around for the next 30 years? When you sign contracts for loans you are making the commitment that YOU are responsible for paying the loan in full. They are only discharged upon your death. If presidential administrations wake up and realize we're 15 trillion in debt and need to make cuts why wouldn't they do away with this program? For example, when I entered dental school I planned on getting subsidized loans for all four years...and we know what happened to those. I'm trying to play devil's advocate, but the thinking that minimal payments will get you forgiven after 20 years may not be the best way to think. Current administration is very spend happy (I have free insurance through my parents until I'm 26...and I guarantee that policy won't last forever.) When presidential administrations change and start using common sense I think they'll realize that these subsidies are not sustainable.
 
A6project said:
if you do income repayment program, you just pay a portion of what you make yearly.
then, it is pointless to pay off the loan as fast as possible.

Old folks tend to say "debt is evil and you should pay it off ASAP"

I disagree.
a dentist will always have loans (edcation, house or practice). paying a portion of your salary is just a part of the game.

I think that old folks are psychologically freaked out about having debts.
make a balanced living; spending, saving&investing, and paying off loan.

ANYONE AGREES???
Click to expand...
You will see that these old folks are right when you start working and paying your bills. I am following these old folks’ advice by trying to pay off the home mortgage ASAP. I work hard now so I can be 100% debt-free before I become 45 yo. I work hard now so I will be able to have the kind of lifestyle that Yunowu is currently enjoying right now.

Orthodontics is great but it is still a job. And if I stop working, the bank will repossess my house. I can’t be my own boss until I am 100% debt-free. Even with 3 successful ortho practices, I don’t feel like I am my own boss . I still feel that Chase (my mortgage lender) is controlling my life.
 
I guess it's just best to strive to go to a public dental school in which you are a resident in that state...like Texas - cheapest tuition I've seen for dental school.
 
charlestweed said:
You will see that these old folks are right when you start working and paying your bills. I am following these old folks’ advice by trying to pay off the home mortgage ASAP. I work hard now so I can be 100% debt-free before I become 45 yo. I work hard now so I will be able to have the kind of lifestyle that Yunowu is currently enjoying right now.

Orthodontics is great but it is still a job. And if I stop working, the bank will repossess my house. I can’t be my own boss until I am 100% debt-free. Even with 3 successful ortho practices, I don’t feel like I am my own boss . I still feel that Chase (my mortgage lender) is controlling my life.
Click to expand...

I agree with this. And I disagree that having loans is just a part of life. In my mind, that's a poor perspective on life's opportunities and perhaps an individuals self control and motivation. Sure, it takes a lot of work to pay off ~$1M in loans (student loans, mortgage, practice), but if you take advantage of the opportunities that are out there (HPSP, National Guard, NHSC, etc.), you can drastically reduce the front load of student loans, which will allow you to crank out a paid off mortgage and speed up the acquisition of your own practice. If debt and risk doesn't bother you, then maybe those options don't appeal to you at all, and you may very well be successful at holding several hundred thousands of dollars in loans over 30 years of your life. Personally to me, debt is a rancorous beast, and I'd prefer many things over such a debt load. As mentioned before, it's largely about living within your means, and I would add patience, not rushing in to things too quickly.
 
MouthDoc said:
I guess it's just best to strive to go to a public dental school in which you are a resident in that state...like Texas - cheapest tuition I've seen for dental school.
Click to expand...

FTW, but it may require more than one application cycle, except for the select few.
 
My plan involves a duplex. Get someone without access to capital to pay most your mortage while you spend that extra money on your student loans. My parents own 3 duplexes and get ~4k cashflow / month. Duplex FTW!

2th Doc said:
I agree with this. And I disagree that having loans is just a part of life. In my mind, that's a poor perspective on life's opportunities and perhaps an individuals self control and motivation. Sure, it takes a lot of work to pay off ~$1M in loans (student loans, mortgage, practice), but if you take advantage of the opportunities that are out there (HPSP, National Guard, NHSC, etc.), you can drastically reduce the front load of student loans, which will allow you to crank out a paid off mortgage and speed up the acquisition of your own practice. If debt and risk doesn't bother you, then maybe those options don't appeal to you at all, and you may very well be successful at holding several hundred thousands of dollars in loans over 30 years of your life. Personally to me, debt is a rancorous beast, and I'd prefer many things over such a debt load. As mentioned before, it's largely about living within your means, and I would add patience, not rushing in to things too quickly.
Click to expand...
 
i know someone does that too in a slight different way. Buy a condo and rent it out while using the rent money for a mortgage. you still have to chip in more cuz rent doess n't cover everything.
 
Last edited:
yappy said:
My plan involves a duplex. Get someone without access to capital to pay most your mortage while you spend that extra money on your student loans. My parents own 3 duplexes and get ~4k cashflow / month. Duplex FTW!
Click to expand...

How are you going to buy a Duplex? Take out another loan? Lol.
 
Any of your millionaire classmates practicing in san francisco bay area?

Are there any dentists out in sf bay area making $ 1 million+?
 
A6project said:
if you do income repayment program, you just pay a portion of what you make yearly.
then, it is pointless to pay off the loan as fast as possible.

Old folks tend to say "debt is evil and you should pay it off ASAP"

I disagree.
a dentist will always have loans (edcation, house or practice). paying a portion of your salary is just a part of the game.

I think that old folks are psychologically freaked out about having debts.
make a balanced living; spending, saving&investing, and paying off loan.

ANYONE AGREES???
Click to expand...


Absolutely! Another vote for the old folks.

As a student, yes, it may seem like you will forever have some sort of loan to pay off. Good news is that is not entirely true. But as a business owner, you will never truly sleep well (figuratively), feel free and appreciate your hard work until:

1. You own your own business
2. You work to pay yourself, not the bank
3. You have no debt!

Debt is debt is debt. There is good debt and bad debt, sure, but it still will always be debt ... and debt is a bitch indeed!
 
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