Verge of academic dismissal

rampal · Jan 21, 2012

So I am facing an academic difficulty at my school. I had some personal issues last semester which resulted in my failing two courses, which does not put me above the threshold for academic dismissal, but close. I remediated one of them, but failed the exam, and that added two more 'failing' credits to the mix. Fortunately, the remediation credits get added onto the Spring semester, so as long as I pass everything this semester, I will fall just below the threshold of academic dismissal.

But here's the problem - the academic counselor at my school thinks it is in my best interest to take a leave of absence this semester, to sort out my life, etc. Our Dean of students thinks this may be best as well. The problem is that if I do take an LOA this semester, those two remediation credits add on to last semester, which then puts me above the threshold for academic dismissal.

The counselor, however, has told me that even if I hit the threshold for academic dismissal, the committee should reinstate me right away in the summer (my school, works on a trisemester schedule) since I have taken the initiative to mend my ways. She didn't give me a guarantee - but she said "I can't guarantee it because I can't predict the future - but I would say I am fairly confident that they would do so"...something to that effect.

That's where the question arises - From my understanding, at my school, even if you are dismissed, the College basically wants you to take a year off and then come back the following academic year, and if you are dismissed once, they are pretty good about letting you back in within one academic cycle, if not sooner. So - I don't understand all of these posts about "i've been dismissed...what now?" Unless you've already been dismissed or separated once, shouldnt your school take you back?

The reason I ask is that the way my counselor made it sound was that just because your credits fall into the 'dismissal' category, doesnt necessarily mean you will be dismissed, and even if you are, they usually let you back in after a year. Is that how most/all medical schools work, DO/MD? Anyone care to advise? Thanks in advance.

thepoopologist · Jan 21, 2012

If your personal issues are sorted out, I wouldn't take the leave. You don't want to play this game. You're either ready for your school work and taking the chance that things aren't going to work out or you're playing the tip toeing, credit watching game. You'll find out if you can truly secure your place with the former. The latter may extend your stay but it simply delays the inevitable, that you ultimately have to pass your classes.

On the other hand, if you are a mental wreck, then take the leave. Heading into Spring depressed or unmotivated is asking for dismissal.

rampal · Jan 21, 2012

thepoopologist said:
If your personal issues are sorted out, I wouldn't take the leave. You don't want to play this game. You're either ready for your school work and taking the chance that things aren't going to work out or you're playing the tip toeing, credit watching game. You'll find out if you can truly secure your place with the former. The latter may extend your stay but it simply delays the inevitable, that you ultimately have to pass your classes.

On the other hand, if you are a mental wreck, then take the leave. Heading into Spring depressed or unmotivated is asking for dismissal.

Thanks, TPOist - even though your post was short and simple, it kinda clarified things for me.

I was also wondering though, is this how all medical schools do it? Like they'll 'separate' someone for a semester or year and then reinstate them? Or is it usually that once you're out, you're out?

thepoopologist · Jan 21, 2012

To answer your edit, at my school they look at your credits 1st. If they pass a threshold, you have to go to committee and make a case to them to not dismiss you.

My point is if you're above the limit, then opinions like your counselors means jack **** because it's not in the student handbook. You can still face a committee that has the power to dismiss you and it's to your advantage to avoid that.

thepoopologist · Jan 21, 2012

rampal said:
Thanks, TPOist - even though your post was short and simple, it kinda clarified things for me.

I was also wondering though, is this how all medical schools do it? Like they'll 'separate' someone for a semester or year and then reinstate them? Or is it usually that once you're out, you're out?

It depends on the school. At mine, if we're under the credit limit, we have the option of taking a reduced load for the following semester and extending the rest into the next academic year. If we're over the limit it's time to make up a story of how your parents were murdered and your girlfriend raped after being forced to eat your bbq'ed pet dog.

ShyRem · Jan 21, 2012

Schools all have their own way of handling dismissals, failing grades, etc. Some schools allow remediations, some allow a certain number of remediations, some dismiss after a certain number of failed courses, some don't dismiss anyone and just require you retake until you pass. It is my understanding that most schools won't automatically reinstate after a dismissal. If they did, that is more of a mandatory leave of absence rather than a dismissal. All schools have an appeal process for a dismissal. The success of appeals varies significantly with your reasons during the appeal, whether faculty is on your side, and the school administration. The rules of each school are totally dependent on the school administration.

I agree with poopologist - if your personal problems are all sorted out, then go forth with your courses as long as you are sure you can absolutely kill them. if you have any qualms whatsoever, if any issues are dragging into the coming semester, then you are better off taking a leave and figuring out your issues. You can't afford to fail more classes at this point.

Shnurek · Jan 21, 2012

thepoopologist said:
If we're over the limit it's time to make up a story of how your parents were murdered and your girlfriend raped after being forced to eat your bbq'ed pet dog.

lmao

cabinbuilder · Jan 23, 2012

rampal said:
That's where the question arises - From my understanding, at my school, even if you are dismissed, the College basically wants you to take a year off and then come back the following academic year, and if you are dismissed once, they are pretty good about letting you back in within one academic cycle, if not sooner. So - I don't understand all of these posts about "i've been dismissed...what now?" Unless you've already been dismissed or separated once, shouldnt your school take you back?
.

I think these posts you are reading are of those students who have failed the board exams 3 times. If you can't pass the boards then you can't get licensed to practice. Your situation is much before that. Just remember that medical school is a business, they realy can't afford for you to drop out as that is a seat that isn't getting paid for and can't be filled in your absence. If your personal problems are solved and you are focused then don't take a LOA. However, if you aren't not focued and risk failing more classes then you may fail out without any hope of return. Taking a LOA is not the end of the world and shows that you are willing to take care of your issues now so you can be successful in the future.

Bones DO · Jan 27, 2012

rampal said:
So I am facing an academic difficulty at my school. I had some personal issues last semester which resulted in my failing two courses, which does not put me above the threshold for academic dismissal, but close. I remediated one of them, but failed the exam, and that added two more 'failing' credits to the mix. Fortunately, the remediation credits get added onto the Spring semester, so as long as I pass everything this semester, I will fall just below the threshold of academic dismissal.

But here's the problem - the academic counselor at my school thinks it is in my best interest to take a leave of absence this semester, to sort out my life, etc. Our Dean of students thinks this may be best as well. The problem is that if I do take an LOA this semester, those two remediation credits add on to last semester, which then puts me above the threshold for academic dismissal.

The counselor, however, has told me that even if I hit the threshold for academic dismissal, the committee should reinstate me right away in the summer (my school, works on a trisemester schedule) since I have taken the initiative to mend my ways. She didn't give me a guarantee - but she said "I can't guarantee it because I can't predict the future - but I would say I am fairly confident that they would do so"...something to that effect.

That's where the question arises - From my understanding, at my school, even if you are dismissed, the College basically wants you to take a year off and then come back the following academic year, and if you are dismissed once, they are pretty good about letting you back in within one academic cycle, if not sooner. So - I don't understand all of these posts about "i've been dismissed...what now?" Unless you've already been dismissed or separated once, shouldnt your school take you back?

The reason I ask is that the way my counselor made it sound was that just because your credits fall into the 'dismissal' category, doesnt necessarily mean you will be dismissed, and even if you are, they usually let you back in after a year. Is that how most/all medical schools work, DO/MD? Anyone care to advise? Thanks in advance.

Do as your committees, deans and consolers advise. If you were unable to successfully remediate one of the classes you failed, with the first attempt's experience fresh in your mind, it serves as clear evidence that your issues are not yet fully worked out. For God's sake they're giving you an out, play ball!

Count your lucky stars you're at a school that isn't so quick to kick you out. NYCOM threw me out after 2 failures 3 months into OMS I. Once you are dismissed it is difficult to get back in anywhere - if you do get back in it would be after years of further mending your ways.

Don't be stupid - take the time and address your problems thoroughly and come back next year 3x as strong, and show them what you're really made of!! Good luck. :luck:

Bones DO · Jan 27, 2012

cabinbuilder said:
I think these posts you are reading are of those students who have failed the board exams 3 times. If you can't pass the boards then you can't get licensed to practice. Your situation is much before that. Just remember that medical school is a business, they realy can't afford for you to drop out as that is a seat that isn't getting paid for and can't be filled in your absence. If your personal problems are solved and you are focused then don't take a LOA. However, if you aren't not focued and risk failing more classes then you may fail out without any hope of return. Taking a LOA is not the end of the world and shows that you are willing to take care of your issues now so you can be successful in the future.

Attrition at DO schools for the first 2 years, pre boards can be as high as 12% at some institutions...namely NYCOM...but I've heard similar numbers from other dismissed students at other schools. They conceal the fact that so many are dismissed (and keep the cash coming in) by taking exceptional transfer students from carib schools. Many of them feel that if you're a risk to their board score average, it's easier to cut you loose sooner than later and replace you with an international student with excellent marks.

Bones DO · Jan 27, 2012

thepoopologist said:
If your personal issues are sorted out, I wouldn't take the leave. You don't want to play this game. You're either ready for your school work and taking the chance that things aren't going to work out or you're playing the tip toeing, credit watching game. You'll find out if you can truly secure your place with the former. The latter may extend your stay but it simply delays the inevitable, that you ultimately have to pass your classes.

On the other hand, if you are a mental wreck, then take the leave. Heading into Spring depressed or unmotivated is asking for dismissal.

scotchtapetest · Jan 28, 2012

Bones DO said:
Attrition at DO schools for the first 2 years, pre boards can be as high as 12% at some institutions...namely NYCOM...but I've heard similar numbers from other dismissed students at other schools. They conceal the fact that so many are dismissed (and keep the cash coming in) by taking exceptional transfer students from carib schools. Many of them feel that if you're a risk to their board score average, it's easier to cut you loose sooner than later and replace you with an international student with excellent marks.

Totally FALSE Post! Unlike what your school's owner might have told you, COMs are not Caribbean schools so they cannot do what you are describing in your post!

1) No body is "concealing" anything! All of this information is published by AACOM (see below).

2) The mean attrition rate for COMs between 2003-2010 was less than 3%!

http://www.aacom.org/data/Documents/2011-COM-Attrition-Summary.pdf
Note: Although the above tables only list 18-22 COMs, the reported mean on those tables includes ALL COMs as per footnotes of the document.

3) As per section 5.4.1 of COCA accreditation standards, COMs are NOT allowed to take transfer student from non-COCA/LCME schools. If they take students from the islands (or any other non-U.S. school) they have to be admitted as an OMS-I with all other students of the incoming class.

http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-a...dards-of-accreditation-effective-7-1-2011.pdf

So, please stop making up stories and/or stop relying on the words of dismissed students. Fact checking takes less than 15 minutes! It is a good practice on SDN and will help you on boards, wards and life!

dozitgetchahi · Jan 28, 2012

bala565 said:
Totally FALSE Post! Unlike what your school's owner might have told you, COMs are not Caribbean schools so they cannot do what you are describing in your post!

1) No body is "concealing" anything! All of this information is published by AACOM (see below).

2) The mean attrition rate for COMs between 2003-2010 was less than 3%!

http://www.aacom.org/data/Documents/2011-COM-Attrition-Summary.pdf
Note: Although the above tables only list 18-22 COMs, the reported mean on those tables includes ALL COMs as per footnotes of the document.

3) As per section 5.4.1 of COCA accreditation standards, COMs are NOT allowed to take transfer student from non-COCA/LCME schools. If they take students from the islands (or any other non-U.S. school) they have to be admitted as an OMS-I with all other students of the incoming class.

http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-a...dards-of-accreditation-effective-7-1-2011.pdf

So, please stop making up stories and/or stop relying on the words of dismissed students. Fact checking takes less than 15 minutes! It is a good practice on SDN and will help you on boards, wards and life!

OK - so how did Nova take in a handful of transfer students from San Juan Bautista (which just lost its LCME accreditation)? Read the thread about the San Juan Bautista debacle on the allo forum if you're curious.

scotchtapetest · Jan 28, 2012

dozitgetchahi said:
OK - so how did Nova take in a handful of transfer students from San Juan Bautista (which just lost its LCME accreditation)? Read the thread about the San Juan Bautista debacle on the allo forum if you're curious.

San Juan is still LCME accredited, they are just on probation along with a number of other MD schools (Federal judge reversed LCME's original decision with regards to San Juan). Unless something changes between now and May, all graduating students from San Juan will graduate with an LCME-accredited MD.

http://www.lcme.org/directry.htm

Also, we are not talking about San Juan which is a US school and this wasn't a planned event by Nova as it was suggested in the post that this is a regular occurrence at COMs.

Yes, COMs do take transfer students, but under extraordinary circumstances and ONLY from COCA/LCME school. If you've heard anything else it is simply false (they can lose their accreditation if they violate this rule).

cbrons · Jan 29, 2012

Taking leave sucks.

But trust me, take it from someone who has done just that, sometimes you have no choice esp if you cannot focus on school work. It can be worth it in the long-run.

Bones DO · Jan 31, 2012

bala565 said:
Totally FALSE Post! Unlike what your school's owner might have told you, COMs are not Caribbean schools so they cannot do what you are describing in your post!

1) No body is "concealing" anything! All of this information is published by AACOM (see below).

2) The mean attrition rate for COMs between 2003-2010 was less than 3%!

http://www.aacom.org/data/Documents/2011-COM-Attrition-Summary.pdf
Note: Although the above tables only list 18-22 COMs, the reported mean on those tables includes ALL COMs as per footnotes of the document.

3) As per section 5.4.1 of COCA accreditation standards, COMs are NOT allowed to take transfer student from non-COCA/LCME schools. If they take students from the islands (or any other non-U.S. school) they have to be admitted as an OMS-I with all other students of the incoming class.

http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-a...dards-of-accreditation-effective-7-1-2011.pdf

So, please stop making up stories and/or stop relying on the words of dismissed students. Fact checking takes less than 15 minutes! It is a good practice on SDN and will help you on boards, wards and life!

I was not told anything by anybody at RVU re these practices. I know for a fact that 10 people were eliminated from the NYCOM 2012 class by November of OMS-I as I was one of them.

The charts you found look really nice but you should examine such things with a more critical eye. In fact, these do more to prove my point than anything else, so thank you for posting them. The"total attrition" rate calculation is very flawed. For example school #3 has the following listed for 2008's year:

Year 1 attrition = 10.84%

Year 2 attrition = 1.37%

Year 3 attrition = 2.74%

Year 4 attrition = 0%

Total attrition = 3.92%???

This is arrived at by summing the four yearly rates and dividing by number of classes (4), giving an average rate of attrition per year for the total student body. This is WRONG. This gives you the rate of attrition for total students enrolled at the COM years I-IV for a year. This artificially drives down the actual attrition rate by averaging the 0% (or near 0%) rate for OMS IV students.

Understand this: attrition rate for a given class is a summation of these rates. For example, follow the same school's class of 2010, entering in 2006:

OMS I in 2006-2007: 8.75%

OMS II in 2007-2008: 4.11%

OMS III in 2008-2009: 2.74%

OMS IV in 2009-2010: 0%

Add these together for COM #3's c/o 2010 Attrition: 15.6%! In other words, 15.6% of those who started in 2006 was gone by graduation for their cohort.

I am in no way suggesting these are anywhere near Caribbean attrition rates which can be roughly 1/3.

I was incorrect about the Caribbean transfers. Mia maxima culpa.

Bones DO · Jan 31, 2012

bala565 said:
San Juan is still LCME accredited, they are just on probation along with a number of other MD schools (Federal judge reversed LCME's original decision with regards to San Juan). Unless something changes between now and May, all graduating students from San Juan will graduate with an LCME-accredited MD.

http://www.lcme.org/directry.htm

Also, we are not talking about San Juan which is a US school and this wasn't a planned event by Nova as it was suggested in the post that this is a regular occurrence at COMs.

Yes, COMs do take transfer students, but under extraordinary circumstances and ONLY from COCA/LCME school. If you've heard anything else it is simply false (they can lose their accreditation if they violate this rule).

So they do take transfers, just from state-side schools. Ergo, how graduation # can approach initial matriculation # for a given COM, in spite of attrition rates that are higher than most of us realize.

Drrrrrr. Celty · Jan 31, 2012

Ok... Wow these posts are majorly disconcerting...

Bones DO · Jan 31, 2012

serenade said:
Ok... Wow these posts are majorly disconcerting...

Not trying to scare anyone, simply making the point that getting into medical school does not ensure that you will get to graduation. Expect to have to work hard when you get in, stay focused on your goals and you'll be OK. If you happen to be one of the people that has a lot of trouble adjusting, do not be afraid to seek out help. Most schools have resources for struggling students but it is up to you to seek them out.

scotchtapetest · Jan 31, 2012

Bones DO said:
I was not told anything by anybody at RVU re these practices. I know for a fact that 10 people were eliminated from the NYCOM 2012 class by November of OMS-I as I was one of them.

The charts you found look really nice but you should examine such things with a more critical eye. In fact, these do more to prove my point than anything else, so thank you for posting them. The"total attrition" rate calculation is very flawed. For example school #3 has the following listed for 2008's year:

Year 1 attrition = 10.84%

Year 2 attrition = 1.37%

Year 3 attrition = 2.74%

Year 4 attrition = 0%

Total attrition = 3.92%???

This is arrived at by summing the four yearly rates and dividing by number of classes (4), giving an average rate of attrition per year for the total student body. This is WRONG. This gives you the rate of attrition for total students enrolled at the COM years I-IV for a year. This artificially drives down the actual attrition rate by averaging the 0% (or near 0%) rate for OMS IV students.

Understand this: attrition rate for a given class is a summation of these rates. For example, follow the same school's class of 2010, entering in 2006:

OMS I in 2006-2007: 8.75%

OMS II in 2007-2008: 4.11%

OMS III in 2008-2009: 2.74%

OMS IV in 2009-2010: 0%

Add these together for COM #3's c/o 2010 Attrition: 15.6%! In other words, 15.6% of those who started in 2006 was gone by graduation for their cohort.

I am in no way suggesting these are anywhere near Caribbean attrition rates which can be roughly 1/3.

I was incorrect about the Caribbean transfers. Mia maxima culpa.

First of all let me preface my statement by saying that I actually believe COMs and allo schools need to kick more people out and not necessarily because of academic reasons but because of ethical/professionalism concerns. Having said that,

I provided you with a table that had 552 real data points (not even counting the averaged values) and you decided to choose 8 of them and present them as the results (not the best way to look at aggregate data my friend).

Yes, out of the 22 COMs which were individually charted there are two schools (#3 and #4) each of which had 2-3 years where their attrition rate slightly exceeded 10%. That can hardly be generalized to all COMs. You forgot to mention that the vast majority of COMs have very low (<5%) attrition rates.

Even if you want to calculate attrition rate for an entire class you can't/shouldn't take the absolute worst numbers and generalize it to everyone. You should take the averaged aggregates and add them up which based on the provided data is about 10% for all COMs combined/averaged.

Also, attrition rate is not completely based on dismissals, there are students who withdraw for family and other reasons including changing their mind about their desire to become physicians.

In any event, the moral of the story is that contrary to what your original post suggested about a conspiracy of COMs to admit people and then kick them out and then take foreign students in order to make extra money is basically a total fallacy based on the provided data and facts.

Last but not least with regards to NYCOM, their incoming class is 200+, so even assuming that they did dismiss 10 people from the class of 2012 by November of OMS-I, that's less than 5% of the class (hardly anything I would consider as substantial) and I'm sure they had very good reasons for doing so.

Bones DO said:
So they do take transfers, just from state-side schools. Ergo, how graduation # can approach initial matriculation # for a given COM, in spite of attrition rates that are higher than most of us realize.

I'm not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me but just in case:

Not all COMs graduate the same number that they admit; In fact the vast majority of times they don't. The total number of US medical students for a given graduation year is a fixed number. If anyone transfers, the school they transfer out of, is short by one and the one they transfer into is up by one.

Bones DO said:
Not trying to scare anyone, simply making the point that getting into medical school does not ensure that you will get to graduation. Expect to have to work hard when you get in, stay focused on your goals and you'll be OK. If you happen to be one of the people that has a lot of trouble adjusting, do not be afraid to seek out help. Most schools have resources for struggling students but it is up to you to seek them out.

I absolutely agree with your last post. If you said this from the beginning without making false allegations about COM practices then I would have had no objections whatsoever and you would've saved us both a lot of time!

Verge of academic dismissal

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