Looking for genuine advise please - got academic dismissal

[lamad]

Hi,
Here is my situation - In my DO school, I failed in one course in first year, was asked to repeat the entire year. I did and passed. Unfortunately in the last course in second year, failed again. (Was going thru health issues last two and half months before the exam, severe health problem and was unable to manage health and studies.) As per my school policy, there is no remediation at all and can't repeat more than one year. Its automatic academic dismissal. Here I am looking for options. My dream from the childhood is to become a physician. I can't think of any other option like NP. I think getting into PA also not possible with my situation. So looking for some honest advise of how I can still pursue my path to become a physician.
Is transferring to Caribbean school an option (I know its going to be big no mainly with Residency, but is there a slim chance is why I am asking) ?

I have already gone thru enough of negative comments in this regards. I am looking for any positive advise and that slim hope someone can genuinely give with real possibility.

Thanks.

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[DO2015CA]

Sorry to hear about your situation but I think it’s time to cut bait. You 100% can get accepted into a Caribbean medical school but that is not really in your best interest. They will drain you of more tuition money for an expensive piece of paper. People have given you good advice even if it felt negative. Caribbean grads face the hardest time matching without having a med school (let alone US med school) dismissal on their record. You will have a much harder time matching than those “perfect” Caribbean students. A medical degree without a residency is just really expensive wall art that you can’t insure.

 

[lamad]

Thanks for the reply @DO2015CA. What are my other options ?
1. Go to post-bacc course, retake MCAT again and try to get great score (as it more than 4 yrs now), apply again with the next cycle . Will this show my effort and commitment to become a physician ?
2. Modified Option 1 - work for couple of years to payoff/reduce the student loan before applying again.
3. Start with a Caribbean MD school fresh from year1 (Even I hate to post this option, but I don't know any other option)
4. Any other options ??

 

[ciestar]

Do not do number 3. You’ll have to report the dismissal to residencies which is a huge red flag by itself.

I agree, time to cut your losses. Im sorry OP.

 

[lamad]

Thanks for all your reply. Is FM or pediatrics also risky with applying to as much as possible programs ? Just want to make sure before eliminating the option.

 

[ciestar]

Thanks for all your reply. Is FM or pediatrics also risky with applying to as much as possible programs ? Just want to make sure before eliminating the option.

Thousands of IMGs apply to residency every year and many go for FM (and like 200+ programs, which is also a lot of money) where their only red flag is where they want to school and still do not match. Do not go caribbean.

 

[KirksvilleKrunk]

Your two options are APPEAL or move on to another career. First, fight for your future, make a case to your school. Get notes from your doctors. Don't be complacent. If you exhaust all options to get reinstated at your school, then move on!

Caribbean schools PREDATORY and looking exactly for students like you. They are known to break their students so only the top make it to graduation. I wouldn't bank on doing any better there. Even if you do make it to graduation, IMGs are getting squeezed out slowly by top-down policy changes from our governing organizations.

 

[lamad]

Appreciate the reply. Dean of the school made the decision and there is no further appeal process.

The only reason I am asking for help in SDN is, this is the forum that might have 10s of 1000s of medical students as readers/contributors. And
I am sure many would have faced similar situation, if not the same. So I am looking for someone who went thru this and come out to become a physician. (Even if they don't want to post here, can message me separately). It's really bad that one or two failures would completely shut down a physician career of a passionate person. Every other field have multiple chances to comeback. Also wondering why would that one failure is creating that big red flag when the person comes back strongly and proves in grades, step scores given a second chance ? This should be viewed as positive right? I am puzzled a lot.

 

[DOVinciRobot]

Unfortunately other schools will see your dismissal and it will automatically disqualify you. You don’t have any other viable options to becoming a physician outside of maybe waiting 10+ years to redo the premed process, re-apply and try again from the beginning with the story that you have become a different person than you were when you failed.

The most genuine advice I can give is to recognize that being a physician is nothing more than a job, and that there are many jobs out there you can have which will lead you to a satisfying career and happy life. It’s time to move on to other pastures.

 

[BobbyKoch]

you've received some solid advice here so far, and I don't want to unduly encourage you to continue down this path, but your story did remind me of this thread....

Failed out of DO program, trying to get back in

Hello everyone, I'm sorry in advance for this being so long but here goes... I am one of those unfortunate people who managed to fail out of medical school and I am curious as to what people think of my situation/plan of action to be reaccepted. I had decent stats applying (3.6 GPA (3.4...

forums.studentdoctor.net

 

[gyngyn]

Has your school followed the process outlined in the Student Handbook. Even the dean cannot over-ride due process.
If you have exhausted your appeals, ask if you qualify for a Master's in Medical Science (the name may vary).

 

[lamad]

The school handbook is not clear regarding remediation/repeat and there is no mention about any Appeal process. My course advisor always told me that I can repeat when I went to him very early this year itself when my health issue started and deteriorated further. Else I would have opted for LOA to take care of my health.

 

[GoSpursGo]

I just have to emphasize, DO NOT go to the Caribbean. I have no doubt you would find a school willing to take your money, but you will not match.

My second piece of advice is that it *is* probably time to cut your losses. If you are not going to do that, then the thread referenced by @BobbyKoch is a good place to go for a template for what to try next. But there are a few caveats to keep in mind before deciding that you can succeed like @Bones DO did:

1) He had a decent-ish application to start out with with a 3.6/3.4 GPA and failed out of a "prestigious" DO school. How good of an applicant were you the first time around, and how good was your DO school?
2) He failed a specific course where it was possible for him to gain increased exposure to from undergrad courses and prove that he had overcome that problem. Is this something you can work on while out of school?
3) He was dismissed without being given the option to repeat the year at all while you already had that chance. How are you going to convince a school that a third time will be the charm, or that you won't struggle in other courses?
4) His story is 13 years old... and med school applications have gotten much more competitive. At the start of his story, he mentioned that about half of the schools explicitly disallow applications from previously dismissed DO students. You need to find out what the status of this policy is in present day before you apply.

I sincerely wish you the best of luck, regardless of what you choose to do next. Just please, for the love of all that is good and holy, do not go to the Caribbean.

 

[wysdoc]

@lamad, some other medical field options for you could be training as an ultrasonographer or radiology or CT technician, working in a renal dialysis center (many of them will train you), or looking into respiratory therapy. Be creative in finding a healthcare field that can get you going in a job fairly soon and allow you to care for and make a difference for patients.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Your best bet for becoming a physician is to appeal the current dismissal. No med school in the country will take you after being dismissed like this. Time to be aggressive (but professional). If this doesn’t work, you should give up.

Tbh, if you can’t handle an osteopathic school, you’ll likely fail out of the Caribbean because it’s notoriously brutal.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Agreed. Appeal the admission. Get documentation from a physician regarding your health conditions and consider getting a lawyer to review the policies and handbook.

I think one of the worse elements about DO programs is their absolutism regarding conditions like this. Someone becoming ill should not lead to their dismissal and their advisor should have told them to take a LOA.

But if all else fails. It's time to cut losses and look into an alternative career. Go for a BSN, get some experience, and go be a CNP. You'll be have the diversity to work and take care of a variety of patients without a lot of the bull****.

 

[Osminog]

The school handbook is not clear regarding remediation/repeat and there is no mention about any Appeal process. My course advisor always told me that I can repeat when I went to him very early this year itself when my health issue started and deteriorated further. Else I would have opted for LOA to take care of my health.

When you met with your course advisor long before the dismissal, did you specifically bring up concerns about how these health issues would affect your academic performance? Did you mention your health issues to any other staff/faculty members early in the school year? Is your interaction with your course advisor and/or other staff/faculty members regarding your health situation in writing (e.g., email)? Is there formal medical documentation of the health issues? Beyond what your course advisor told you (i.e., that you would be able to remediate again—which the school failed to follow through on), were you offered additional reasonable accommodations?

What you're describing sounds like potential grounds for an ADA lawsuit. Consider contacting an attorney specializing in higher education and/or disability law, if you haven't already.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Has your school followed the process outlined in the Student Handbook. Even the dean cannot over-ride due process.
If you have exhausted your appeals, ask if you qualify for a Master's in Medical Science (the name may vary).

Agree with this.

Shop around some lawyers. Any reputable firm will provide a free consultation to tell you whether you have a case. Provide them with the school’s handbook and write up an objective summary with a timeline of events leading to dismissal.

This could fall under breach of contract or promissory estoppel if the school did not follow disciplinary measures listed in the handbook.

I am sorry for the situation op and wish you luck.

 

[Goro]

I agree that checking your student handbook is needed to determine if protocol was followed.

I'm surprised that you didn't take an LOA when you got sick.

And to the junior lawyers, no medical school has ever been successfully sued when it was shown that they didn't act in an arbitrary or capricious manner.

There may be some MD schools out there that do not count matriculating at a DO school as counting as matriculating at a medical school. I learned this from someone else who was dismissed from a DO school.

Were you not allowed the chance to withdraw??????

Unfortunately, I fear that your medical career is over

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

I agree that checking your student handbook is needed to determine if protocol was followed.

I'm surprised that you didn't take an LOA when you got sick.

And to the junior lawyers, no medical school has ever been successfully sued when it was shown that they didn't act in an arbitrary or capricious manner.

There may be some MD schools out there that do not count matriculating at a DO school as counting as matriculating at a medical school. I learned this from someone else who was dismissed from a DO school.

Were you not allowed the chance to withdraw??????

Unfortunately, I fear that your medical career is over

Wouldn’t it be arbitrary if they didn’t follow the guidelines laid out in the handbook?

Seems to be the definition of arbitrary.

 

[Goro]

Wouldn’t it be arbitrary if they didn’t follow the guidelines laid out in the handbook?

Seems to be the definition of arbitrary.

True, but medical schools have lawyers too, and neither are stupid.

 

[Ho0v-man]

And to the junior lawyers, no medical school has ever been successfully sued when it was shown that they didn't act in an arbitrary or capricious manner.

True. But is there any data on if/how frequently medical schools back down from weakly founded cases of dismissal when a student lawyers up? I doubt that data exists.

Not saying this is such a case as there usually tends to be more to the story. Just entertaining the idea that we may not know for sure that seeking legal counsel in these situations has always been 100% fruitless.

OP, I think getting a lawyer is the nuclear option when you’ve made sure something like an appeal/smp, etc has already been exhausted.

 

[Goro]

OP+ Ho0v-man I have to stand corrected. Surprisingly, someone in a similar situation as you managed to get a dismissal turned into a withdrawal in good standing after having their lawyer have a chat with the school.

So play the lawyer card after s/he looks at the student handbook and assesses your situation, especially if you have attended a newer school (ie, one less than five-ten years old). They way very well not know WTF they're doing, which is why I warn students to avoid a brand new school.

Also, see if you can get a LOR from trusted Faculty explaining your situation; that always helps.

 

[lamad]

Thanks for all the inputs. I got very good inputs, will work on the action items and will update accordingly.

 

[amyl]

Good luck. You may look back on this some day as a blessing…. There’s another path for you - go find it. Look at the girl who played blossom- mayim bailik - she became famous because she didn’t even get in. Not everyone is meant to be a doctor - and the fact is doctors go to work when sick, work crazy shifts, don’t sleep and we still have to function at the highest level… always. If you think med school is hard - well it was a piece of cake compared to residency and being a practicing doctor. The road only gets harder…. Not easier. I hope you look back on this moment fondly without regret when you are happy in your new career having found your true calling-

 

[psychtoobe]

Hi,
Here is my situation - In my DO school, I failed in one course in first year, was asked to repeat the entire year. I did and passed. Unfortunately in the last course in second year, failed again. (Was going thru health issues last two and half months before the exam, severe health problem and was unable to manage health and studies.) As per my school policy, there is no remediation at all and can't repeat more than one year. Its automatic academic dismissal. Here I am looking for options. My dream from the childhood is to become a physician. I can't think of any other option like NP. I think getting into PA also not possible with my situation. So looking for some honest advise of how I can still pursue my path to become a physician.
Is transferring to Caribbean school an option (I know its going to be big no mainly with Residency, but is there a slim chance is why I am asking) ?

I have already gone thru enough of negative comments in this regards. I am looking for any positive advise and that slim hope someone can genuinely give with real possibility.

Thanks.

Hi Lamad, I am so sorry that you are going through this ordeal. It must be hard on you especially since you stated that you’ve always wanted to be a physician since childhood.
One thing I want you to consider is that God knows the future and we dont, and sometimes we may feel that something or some career is what’s best for us but it really might not be. In such a situation, God can block the path that we seem to be right for us if He knows the end result will be bad. So could this be the case with you? Could it be that although you want to be a physician and that even if you force things and eventually become one, that it may result in bad things for you in future and that’s why there’s road block everywhere?
I would advice that you stop this pursuit for the time being and be still, look within yourself prayerfully to see if there’s another career that God may be leading you towards that might be best fit for the gifts and talents that you were born with and through which you may do the greatest good for humanity. I wish you blessings and happiness in your life pursuits.

 

[Dr. Little Foot]

Look into podiatry school. Explain your situation in a supplement to your application and apply to all nine and one or two may give you a chance. It's a great profession and you won't owe any loan payments because you'll still be a full time student. They didn't used to like taking people who failed MD/DO school, but they've hard a tough time filling classes in recent years.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

I would avoid taking on more debt at this point. RN may be better than podiatry if you can’t appeal

 

[PhD_to_DO]

Hi,
Here is my situation - In my DO school, I failed in one course in first year, was asked to repeat the entire year. I did and passed. Unfortunately in the last course in second year, failed again. (Was going thru health issues last two and half months before the exam, severe health problem and was unable to manage health and studies.) As per my school policy, there is no remediation at all and can't repeat more than one year. Its automatic academic dismissal. Here I am looking for options. My dream from the childhood is to become a physician. I can't think of any other option like NP. I think getting into PA also not possible with my situation. So looking for some honest advise of how I can still pursue my path to become a physician.
Is transferring to Caribbean school an option (I know its going to be big no mainly with Residency, but is there a slim chance is why I am asking) ?

I have already gone thru enough of negative comments in this regards. I am looking for any positive advise and that slim hope someone can genuinely give with real possibility.

Thanks.

I don’t have experience with failing out of medical school so I can’t say what you should do. That said, I do know of exactly four students (one was a US MD, two DO, and one from a Caribbean school) who had failed out of a previous medical school and were able to get an interview with a US DO school. Of the four, only one was successful in matriculating into the school that I’m talking about and this students admissions /interview and vetting process reminded me of what it was like to apply for a Top Secret clearance when I was in the Army. This student had a very unique set of circumstances that contributed to her failing out of her school AND she had a couple of allies on the admissions committee at this DO school that she ultimately got into. So you could take your shot and apply but understand that you are going to have a tough, uphill battle, particularly if you don’t have a strong reason for why you failed out (Why did you not take a medical LOA????) and folks who are willing to advocate for you.

 

[lamad]

I would avoid taking on more debt at this point. RN may be better than podiatry if you can’t appeal

Thanks, I was looking into BSN application and they are asking if I went to graduate school and had any academic dismissal. I am worried that will this completely shutdown my future career ? Never thought it would end up this serious issue. Any advise on how to end up as NP ?

 

[Z2911BME]

Hi,
Here is my situation - In my DO school, I failed in one course in first year, was asked to repeat the entire year. I did and passed. Unfortunately in the last course in second year, failed again. (Was going thru health issues last two and half months before the exam, severe health problem and was unable to manage health and studies.) As per my school policy, there is no remediation at all and can't repeat more than one year. Its automatic academic dismissal. Here I am looking for options. My dream from the childhood is to become a physician. I can't think of any other option like NP. I think getting into PA also not possible with my situation. So looking for some honest advise of how I can still pursue my path to become a physician.
Is transferring to Caribbean school an option (I know its going to be big no mainly with Residency, but is there a slim chance is why I am asking) ?

I have already gone thru enough of negative comments in this regards. I am looking for any positive advise and that slim hope someone can genuinely give with real possibility.

Thanks.

If you look long and hard enough, you’ll find the answer you are looking for in regard to somebody out there saying they’ve walked your path and became a physician - don’t let that prevent you from making the decision that’s BEST for your life…and don’t go to Caribbean. There are lots of people on here who have much wisdom in this area, many of them who’ve already given their two cents. I’d suggest keeping an open mind and listen to their guidance. I wish you the best of luck in this process, your future endeavors, and your health!!!

 

[mwsapphire]

Long story short, something similar may have just happened to me. It's not 100 percent right now, but 50/50.
I'm trying to be at peace with it. Medicine is just a job, and a lot of people realize far too late that it's not for them, may as well cut your losses and get out. It's the will of God, afterall.

( Essentially, I overcame all of the issues I had last year, passed each exam I had previously had issues with, only to be bodied by the very last exam of the year, with a lower score than the previous year. There is a slight scale and I may be able to make a case for a retake given my issues with anxiety, but other than that, in all likelihood I'm being dismissed.)

 

[lamad]

Please see my latest post above, I understood and decided to go to Nurse Practitioner path and that application also is asking about academic dismissal. Thats where I need help now.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

See if you can withdraw without prejudice

 

[GoSpursGo]

Please see my latest post above, I understood and decided to go to Nurse Practitioner path and that application also is asking about academic dismissal. Thats where I need help now.

Agree with above, see if you can get the dismissal changed to a withdrawal. I would imagine the dismissal process wouldn't be finalized yet so you may have time to change this.

If you've already been dismissed, then talk with the admissions office about what they're trying to glean from that question. I would *think* that answering in the affirmative would not automatically screen you out, as personally I think you can still be a good NP even if you didn't excel in med school, but I just don't know their standards.

 

[SheraSkn]

I don’t have experience with failing out of medical school so I can’t say what you should do. That said, I do know of exactly four students (one was a US MD, two DO, and one from a Caribbean school) who had failed out of a previous medical school and were able to get an interview with a US DO school. Of the four, only one was successful in matriculating into the school that I’m talking about and this students admissions /interview and vetting process reminded me of what it was like to apply for a Top Secret clearance when I was in the Army. This student had a very unique set of circumstances that contributed to her failing out of her school AND she had a couple of allies on the admissions committee at this DO school that she ultimately got into. So you could take your shot and apply but understand that you are going to have a tough, uphill battle, particularly if you don’t have a strong reason for why you failed out (Why did you not take a medical LOA????) and folks who are willing to advocate for you.

did the student that matriculated start over w/ M1 year? Or continue at M3

 

[PhD_to_DO]

did the student that matriculated start over w/ M1 year? Or continue at M3

Student started over as an OMS-1.