Navy Match Questions

Shoot an email off to the HPSP folks with your questions. The director, CAPT Cohen, came by our school last week to answer questions such as yours. He's extremely approachable and his main objective is to answer our questions and develop better communications between NMETC and us Navy HPSP students.

Address the email to LT McLeary and if she can't answer your question, she'll bump it up to the CAPT. He's an FP dive officer who spent time in Operation Desert Shield with the USMC; very impressive, down to earth, call it like it is, type of guy. Defintely can talk about life as a DMO.

email address: [email protected]

I predict we'll be seeing a huge improvement with Q&A, career planning, general info, etc now he's in charge.

We asked him some of the same question and I recall his answer was generally that if you're competitive for the residency you're asking for, and there's billets open, and you did well on your GMO tour, most (if not all) get their residency. I recall we didn't spend much time on the topic since it didn't sound like a big concern. Yet he did say that the Navy would NOT force you into a residency you didn't want.

He's the direct source for your answer, shoot him an email. Since you have these questions, I'm sure many others do too. They just might put the answers into a monthly update email for all to benefit.

Hope that helps.

These are good questions. The military match is a point system in which one receives points from a series of categories. The one caveat to this is that because we are such a small community, the personal relationships that one has with the board members is critical to the subjective part of the scoring. There was an article in the MMSA journal a couple of years ago that broke the scoring down very specifically. I can't remember the details but basically, each part of your application is scored by 3? individuals and the totals are summed.
THE NUMBERS ARE FROM MEMORY AND MAY BE TOTALLY WRONG, HAVE CHANGED, ETC!!
1. Preclinical years + Step 1 (0-2 points)
2. Clinical Rotations + Step 2 (0-3 points)
3. Internship + Step 3 (0-5 points)
(obviously you can only receive these points if you are in or have completed an internship. Your score in this category was capped at 3 out of 5 if you were still an intern. This is what prevents people from going straight through in competitive residencies in the Navy)
Each evaluator gets a total score and the three scores are summed to determine your total.
4. Bonus points: publications, GMO time and prior service (I have no idea how many points are given for each, anyone else remember?)
Final total= total+bonus points

So, to answer your question, your performance during that time still matters even if you deferred training. Your DMO time will help by 1. allowing you the opportunity to max the intern points and 2. GMO bonus points.

Hope this helps. If anyone knows anything different about the process, please correct me but this is my understanding of how it all works.

I have that issue of MMSA and if I can find it will be happy to post the actual categories and possible scores, but GMO_52 got it reasonably correct.

Spang

Hey Dudes-

I came across the grade sheet allegedly used for military residency selection, as well as a powerpoint brief describing the process. GMO_52 was essentially right on, but here's a little more detail:

Panel Member Scores:
Pre-Clinical Years of Med School (Inc. Step 1): 0-2 points
Clinical Years of Med School (Inc. Step 2): 0-3 points
Internship (Inc. Step 3): 0-5 (Max 3 for current interns)
Residency (For fellowship applicants only): 0-10 points
Post-Internship (Operational/Utilization Tour): 0-5 points
"Potential for successful practice as specialist and career officer": 0-5 points.

There is an Army, AF and Navy member on the panel, and each will score you in the above categories. Then, the scores are averaged, giving you a "composite score."

Bonus Points:
Research: 0-4 points
4=multiple publications in peer-reviewed journals
3=single publication in peer-reviewed journal
2=multiple pubs in in-house journals or posters
1=single publication in-house or poster

Prior Military service (before medical school): 0-2 points
2=Medical
1=Non-medical

The "bonus points" section was pulled from the powerpoint brief. I once heard that prior service counts for more, though.

Composite Score plus bonus points gives you your total score.

The other interesting slide on the powerpoint was titled: "The Ideal Applicant:"
Top quarter of medical school class in grades and boards
Prior military service
Research activity
Excellent evaluations during internship
Post-internship utilization tour(s)

Anyway, this may all be wrong, but it's something to think about. Spang, does this jive with what you have from MMSA?

Fly Navy,
-sb

Stickboy:

Yeah, you're on and on. It makes it sound like it could be close between as sierra-hotel, prior service intern and no so hot returning GMO!

I sent you a PM with my email address, did you get it? I'll send another today.

Spang, out.

I'll try to answer a few of the questions as well. I'm sitting here in my office, waiting for the folks in DC to actually release the results of this GMESB, so I have to do something to pass the time.
1. CAPT Cohen used to be my boss before he went to DC, you couldn't ask for a more approachable guy who will tell you the truth and guide you in the right direction. Use him as a resource, he was a private practice FP before he got called up for Gulf I as a reservist, came home and decided civilian medicine wasn't worth it, went active, became a DMO at age 40 (the PT was tough enough at 30, let me confirm that), and has had some great experiences. He will treat you well, you're fortunate as HPSPers to have him, those of us who went before had no help at all.
2. The civilian Deans, profs, etc. have no clue about the military, don't bother. I had to explain the whole process to my Dean, my med school not only had no interest in the military, it was genuinely hostile. There were 3 of us, 1 from each service. We thought taking our oath in dress uniform at graduation would be a nice touch, no go we did it in a classroom after the ceremony. Anyway, forget them.
3. The point system posted is correct, but let me speak from experience. I'll know in a few hours about residency, but for internship I think the program directors get who they want as long as they can justify it. There's enough slush in the point system to let them swing it their way. "future career potential", etc. allow some room. Don't be fearful of this, just remember that you must get to know the people who are in charge of your fate in the military. Get in touch early and often so they know who you are, the directors hand pick their groups.
4. GMO/DMO/FS tours trump all at the board. For competitive specialties, even if you are a prior service type, if the GMOs are plentiful and qualified, they'll get the spots. Sorry, but that's the only fair way to do it. Those of us out in the fleet shouldn't be shut out by current interns, unless the fleet folks have no business practicing medicine (there are a few).
5. USMLE scores, AOA, class rank, all that matters for residency. FITREPS are very important, but letters from medschool faculty mean next to nothing. I didn't use any for my application. Internship evals are huge, and get to know the people IN THE NAVY in the specialty you want to pursue. If you're not sure, great, GMO tours are perfect for deciding. I am headed for radiology (I hope, anyway) and had orginally planned on FP, then Anesthesia. Nothing like a few years of actually practicing medicine to decide which area fits you best.
6. DaveB, go be a DMO and enjoy. I've had a blast and have had experiences that couldn't be reproduced in the civilian world. I couldn't recommend it more, both for the HOOYAH stuff and the time it buys you to figure your life out.
7. If you think you might want to do a surgical residency, absolutely do a surgical internship. If you do transitional and then want surgery, they'll make you repeat your internship, a fate worse than death. If you do surgery and pick some other field that requires a base year, you're all set.
Hope this helps, I'm off to command mandated Physical Training, a nice benefit of DMO life.
DD

I'll try to answer a few of the questions as well. I'm sitting here in my office, waiting for the folks in DC to actually release the results of this GMESB, so I have to do something to pass the time.
1. CAPT Cohen used to be my boss before he went to DC, you couldn't ask for a more approachable guy who will tell you the truth and guide you in the right direction. Use him as a resource, he was a private practice FP before he got called up for Gulf I as a reservist, came home and decided civilian medicine wasn't worth it, went active, became a DMO at age 40 (the PT was tough enough at 30, let me confirm that), and has had some great experiences. He will treat you well, you're fortunate as HPSPers to have him, those of us who went before had no help at all.
2. The civilian Deans, profs, etc. have no clue about the military, don't bother. I had to explain the whole process to my Dean, my med school not only had no interest in the military, it was genuinely hostile. There were 3 of us, 1 from each service. We thought taking our oath in dress uniform at graduation would be a nice touch, no go we did it in a classroom after the ceremony. Anyway, forget them.
3. The point system posted is correct, but let me speak from experience. I'll know in a few hours about residency, but for internship I think the program directors get who they want as long as they can justify it. There's enough slush in the point system to let them swing it their way. "future career potential", etc. allow some room. Don't be fearful of this, just remember that you must get to know the people who are in charge of your fate in the military. Get in touch early and often so they know who you are, the directors hand pick their groups.
4. GMO/DMO/FS tours trump all at the board. For competitive specialties, even if you are a prior service type, if the GMOs are plentiful and qualified, they'll get the spots. Sorry, but that's the only fair way to do it. Those of us out in the fleet shouldn't be shut out by current interns, unless the fleet folks have no business practicing medicine (there are a few).
5. USMLE scores, AOA, class rank, all that matters for residency. FITREPS are very important, but letters from medschool faculty mean next to nothing. I didn't use any for my application. Internship evals are huge, and get to know the people IN THE NAVY in the specialty you want to pursue. If you're not sure, great, GMO tours are perfect for deciding. I am headed for radiology (I hope, anyway) and had orginally planned on FP, then Anesthesia. Nothing like a few years of actually practicing medicine to decide which area fits you best.
6. DaveB, go be a DMO and enjoy. I've had a blast and have had experiences that couldn't be reproduced in the civilian world. I couldn't recommend it more, both for the HOOYAH stuff and the time it buys you to figure your life out.
7. If you think you might want to do a surgical residency, absolutely do a surgical internship. If you do transitional and then want surgery, they'll make you repeat your internship, a fate worse than death. If you do surgery and pick some other field that requires a base year, you're all set.
Hope this helps, I'm off to command mandated Physical Training, a nice benefit of DMO life.
DD

I am a MS4 with a 3 year HPSP with the NAVY. Just to add something to the discussion, residencies that are competitive in the civilian world will definitively be competitive in the Navy. Study hard, nail the boards and then and only then you can worry about working very hard on your internship. If you have the knowledge to score big on the USMLE's, you will have the knowledge to handle the internship in a decent way. Some residents at San Diego told me that the only residency in the Navy that really requires very high scores is Derm. The rest of them are more into the GMO thing. I hope this helps.

JAP

PS: NAVY medicine rules. I am currently in my second rotation and I am really enjoying the atmosphere. Trust me, as soon as you start doing your clinical rotations you will realize how good NAVY life is...

Absolutely work hard for your board scores, they are extremely important for residency selection. Derm is very competitive, but it is not the only residency that expects to see high board scores. For example, the lowest USMLE score (and remember all 3 results are in for GMOs) for anyone accepted for radiology at Portsmouth Naval hospital this year was a 220. And these are old 220s, back when the Step 1 mean was 207 or so. Step II and III take on much more importance than the civilian side, because they are part of your application vs. after thoughts in the civilian world.
Still, get to know the people in your field.
DD

Navy Dive Doc: Do you remember the highest USMLE score for Portsmouth's radiology this year? I am very certain that I want to continue my medical career as a Radiologist? I will really like to do my training in Bethesda, but as long as is Rad's anywhere is good. I have 235 on my step1 and 234 on my step 2. I know that boards are not everything and that there is a formula. But assuming that I will have a good performance in my internship and in my GMO, what do you think are my chances of landing in a Radiology spot in the Navy? Thank you in advance Dr.

ENS Javier A. P?rez USNR MC
[email protected]

Originally posted by DaveB
While we are on the topic of boards, when do most Navy interns take step 3? And is there any inservice exam that you have to take as an intern?

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Most of us in my surgical intern class took step 3 in the spring after we had done most of our rotations - it's mostly up to you.

The inservice exams vary from program to program - don't have specifics on medicine or transitional exams, but for surgery you'll take the ABSITE in the Jan/Feb time frame if I remember correctly. Don't worry about studying too hard for it unless that is the field you plan on ending up in.

You might consider taking your Step 3 a little earlier as the Navy has become more concerned with having GMOs get their license ASAP. They will hold your $15K until you pass step 3.

Originally posted by GMO_52
You might consider taking your Step 3 a little earlier as the Navy has become more concerned with having GMOs get their license ASAP. They will hold your $15K until you pass step 3.

Click to expand...

By all means, if you think that you may not pass - take it early.

That's not exactly what I meant. What you will find during your internship is that each time the program directors see you in the hall they are going to want to know that you've taken and passed the exam. There is a ton of pressure on them to ensure this (you'll see what I'm talking about). Once you're done, you get to stop answering the question.

Sorry - didn't mean to offend. "You" was referring to the med students & interns out there - I realize that you've finished all that and are out in the fleet.

I didn't personally get any pressure from my internship coordinator/PD to hurry up & take the test. It's only supposed to take ~6 weeks to get your scores back, so you can still take it well into the spring if you so desire.

Sorry, no offense taken. My PD asked each of us if we had taken our boards each time he saw us for months until the answer was yes. I think this pressure is probably new since you went out because it was the same with some of my med school classmates at other sites.

Navy Dive Doc: Do you remember the highest USMLE score for Portsmouth's radiology this year? I am very certain that I want to continue my medical career as a Radiologist? I will really like to do my training in Bethesda, but as long as is Rad's anywhere is good. I have 235 on my step1 and 234 on my step 2. I know that boards are not everything and that there is a formula. But assuming that I will have a good performance in my internship and in my GMO, what do you think are my chances of landing in a Radiology spot in the Navy? Thank you in advance Dr.


With those board scores, you should be very competitive for a radiology spot, assuming all else is equal and you get to know the right people. As for highest score at Portsmouth, I know there was a least one 250 Portsmouth was the most popular this year, the least popular last year, so you never know how it will shake out year to year. Overall, though, it was a very competitive year, with something like 58 applicants for 17 spots. Who knows, maybe next year no one will want radiology. Work hard as an intern, have fun in the fleet without pissing off your CO and you'll be fine.
DD

Dive Doc,
would you happen to know how many of those 58 will have completed a GMO tour.
Thanks,
chllin

I am willing to bet 2 month's worth of base pay that it is 100% GMO rate, and probably quite a few with more than 1 GMO tour.

Am I right?

Nope, not quite, I know of at least 4 folks who put in packages knowing they wouldn't get it so that the paperwork would be done for the future. That way, if they were deployed, they could just submit the same package.
So lets see, O4 or O5 base pay, 10+ years of service x 2months...sweet.

Originally posted by militarymd
I am willing to bet 2 month's worth of base pay that it is 100% GMO rate, and probably quite a few with more than 1 GMO tour.

Am I right?

Click to expand...

100% on those who got into the program....not those who apply. I should have been more clear.

No GMO in the Navy pretty much means no residency in the competitive ones...unless your dad is 0-7 or above.

The reason why I ask for % GMO applicants is that with Dive Doc's numbers you still only have 50% at best shot of getting in based on GMO alone after your tour.

50 or 51 of the applicants had completed or were currently in a GMO tour, all of those accepted were fleet folks. There is a rumor that you should apply as an intern to "show interest"...I suppose it can't hurt but those packages are usually filtered out and don't really get looked at during the board. Some fo the materials are kept, but you'd still need to update the package with new FITREPS, Step III scores, etc. Probably not worth the effort when internship is hassle enough. Do get to know the people in charge, though, and stay in touch.

Like the civilian world, not everyone who wants to be in a specialty will get a chance to. However, in the Navy you can always apply again the next year and still have a job in the interim. However, if you are a GMO who applies and is not listed as an alternate at the board, you should probably seek other avenues and a less competitive specialty.
DD