For adcoms and student interviewers: substantial non-medical/non-service ECs

aspiring20 · Nov 12, 2012

I would really appreciate some input from adcoms and medical students who serve on the adcoms for this

during my two gap years (graduated this spring, applying june 2014), my main "full-time" activity will be a substantial artistic endeavor (I majored in the arts) that is not medically related and does not directly relate to service. Many SDN users (and one adcom) have already shared with me their views on this endeavor, and there seems to be a clear split in their perspectives.

virtually every non-adcom SDN member (pre med students, medical students, etc) said that it is an excellent activity and very suited to someone with my background. a few student adcoms also told me that they look favorably on individuals with unique, non-medical experiences when conducting interviews, and that an activity like mine should be plus factor.

however, i've also asked an adcom (whom i respect and offers valuable advice) about this issue, and his/her view is very different. bascially, he/she believes that spending such a significant amount of time on a solitary artistic endeavor isn't particular attractive to adcoms when an applicant (aka myself) professes a desire to be a doctor. he/she asks the legitimate question why would someone who want to be a doctor take time off for this kind of activity. in addition, he/she mentioned that most applicants who take time off do science, service, or find employment, and that someone who spends so much energy in an endeavor such as mine might raise some red flags.

i believe, based on prevalent SDN views, that unique, substantial, and meaningful activities are a boost for applicants provided that the usual "boxes" are checked off, aka hospital volunteering, service, research, etc. And of course, MCAT always comes first and foremost. lastly, it seems widely agreed upon that the most important thing we can do during gap years is something we want to do/passionately about.

i would really appreciate some perspective on this issue from other adcom/student adcom members. thanks

Nymphicus · Nov 12, 2012

It's hard to say because I have no idea what a "substantial artistic endeavor" entails...

CuttingCorneas · Nov 12, 2012

Nymphicus said:
It's hard to say because I have no idea what a "substantial artistic endeavor" entails...

For the love of god, OP, please tell me you didn't do pron...

aspiring20 · Nov 12, 2012

CuttingCorneas said:
For the love of god, OP, please tell me you didn't do pron...

haha nope

Lollygag · Nov 12, 2012

aspiring20 said:
bascially, he/she believes that spending such a significant amount of time on a solitary artistic endeavor isn't particular attractive to adcoms when an applicant (aka myself) professes a desire to be a doctor. he/she asks the legitimate question why would someone who want to be a doctor take time off for this kind of activity. in addition, he/she mentioned that most applicants who take time off do science, service, or find employment, and that someone who spends so much energy in an endeavor such as mine might raise some red flags.

😱 what? lol I have never heard of this before.

aspiring20 · Nov 12, 2012

Lollygag said:
😱 what? lol I have never heard of this before.

i just PMed you

Doudline · Nov 13, 2012

aspiring20 said:
however, i've also asked an adcom (whom i respect and offers valuable advice) about this issue, and his/her view is very different. bascially, he/she believes that spending such a significant amount of time on a solitary artistic endeavor isn't particular attractive to adcoms when an applicant (aka myself) professes a desire to be a doctor. he/she asks the legitimate question why would someone who want to be a doctor take time off for this kind of activity. in addition, he/she mentioned that most applicants who take time off do science, service, or find employment, and that someone who spends so much energy in an endeavor such as mine might raise some red flags.

Tell your adcom to get back on his/her meds.

aspiring20 · Nov 13, 2012

Doudline said:
Tell your adcom to get back on his/her meds.

i have great respect for this adcom (he/she offered good perspectives to me before), but i also realize that one person's view is NOT representative of the entire system

this is also an adcom at a highly ranked school, and i have neither the desire nor the capabilities to get into a top tier...so i guess i shouldn't be overly concerned about how this person views it

having said, how would you look at something like this?

darkjedi · Nov 13, 2012

aspiring20 said:
virtually every non-adcom SDN member (pre med students, medical students, etc) said that it is an excellent activity and very suited to someone with my background. a few student adcoms also told me that they look favorably on individuals with unique, non-medical experiences when conducting interviews, and that an activity like mine should be plus factor.

I do student interviews and this is definitely my view.

NickNaylor · Nov 13, 2012

Nymphicus said:
It's hard to say because I have no idea what a "substantial artistic endeavor" entails...

Agree with this. I would also say that while it might be cool to have an activity that is somewhat off the wall, I don't really find value in those things beyond it being interesting and me being personally excited about it. There's not a field on our evaluation form where I can talk about strictly "cool" or "interesting" things that are otherwise uninformative. My suggestion would be to find a way to connect it to medicine for maximal effect: for example, what skills are you using/developing that might be useful in medicine? This requires some reflection and thinking about what you expect to get from the project.

I don't mean to imply that everything worth listing on AMCAS must be medically related. That's not true. But if the activity doesn't say something about who you are, your interest in medicine, or why you would be a good physician, then it's nothing more than a cool/interesting activity in my book (and, thus, likely wouldn't get mentioned in my evaluation). Sure, it'll show that you have a life outside of school and have interests beyond the typical "resume-building" ECs, but I think the value of that stuff is way overplayed on SDN.

mimelim · Nov 13, 2012

This is a great add on activity, not a good focal point for the two years prior to matriculation in medical school. Admissions committees are not looking for people who know 2 years in advance that they want to go to medical school and then decide to spend their time doing something completely non-medical in that time. Having diverse interests is a huge plus for an applicant. Interesting people making for a more interesting and more rounded medical school class. Do not let anyone tell you otherwise.

What you have to realize is that you are sinking a huge amount of time into this. You have to consider what other pre-meds would do with 2 full years off and compare that to what you are doing and how adcoms would consider them differently. This is an add on, NOT a focal point. I'll give you my personal example. I am a rock climber. I spent an inordinate amount of time training and climbing given the limitations of undergrad and medical school, probably on the order of 12-15 hours a week. I invested a great deal of time, energy, focus because that is what I enjoy, I also happen to be rather good at it. But, while I could see myself spending 2 years in Yosemite or southern Spain climbing, the reality is, as a future Physician (and now as a Physician), it is illogical to overly invest in something that just is completely outside the realm of medicine. It just isn't relavent enough.

aspiring20 · Nov 13, 2012

thanks for all the response. i respect all of your views and i can see how some adcom members will share these views.

having said that, i still can't completely see how spending an significant amount of time in another endeavor contradict my desire to become a physician. a lot of people in my school got into med school as humanity majors, and they have relatively limited clinical hours as well (only a fraction of what i'll have by the time i apply).

i've started my clinical exposure to medicine early during my undergrad career, and i've continued it all the way till graduation. and when this endeavor is a main activity, it is by no means the only thing i am doing. like i said earlier, i am studying for the MCAT, taking science courses, volunteering at the VA, shadowing, and doing community service. I feel that doing these separate activities should be more than enough during the gap year in the eyes of the adcom, so an addtional 40 hrs/week on top of everything else on a subject that is dear and near to my heart should be a plus factor that really demonstrates my ability to juggle multiple things at once.

do you guys feel that it would be somehow better if i just ditched the project all together and have a super relaxed gap period with nothing other than the typical activities i just described? it seems that many med schools have no major issue with applicants just relaxing.

at the end, what i hope to illustrate with my app is that even though i am a very passionate student academically in a field outside of medicine, i still manage to show good commitment to the field of medicne (via my hours) and that i have what it takes to succeed (spending a lot of time preparing and doing well on the MCAT).

aspiring20 · Nov 13, 2012

mimelim said:
This is a great add on activity, not a good focal point for the two years prior to matriculation in medical school. Admissions committees are not looking for people who know 2 years in advance that they want to go to medical school and then decide to spend their time doing something completely non-medical in that time. Having diverse interests is a huge plus for an applicant. Interesting people making for a more interesting and more rounded medical school class. Do not let anyone tell you otherwise.

What you have to realize is that you are sinking a huge amount of time into this. You have to consider what other pre-meds would do with 2 full years off and compare that to what you are doing and how adcoms would consider them differently. This is an add on, NOT a focal point. I'll give you my personal example. I am a rock climber. I spent an inordinate amount of time training and climbing given the limitations of undergrad and medical school, probably on the order of 12-15 hours a week. I invested a great deal of time, energy, focus because that is what I enjoy, I also happen to be rather good at it. But, while I could see myself spending 2 years in Yosemite or southern Spain climbing, the reality is, as a future Physician (and now as a Physician), it is illogical to overly invest in something that just is completely outside the realm of medicine. It just isn't relavent enough.

thanks for your perspective. i just sent you a PM

aspiring20 · Nov 13, 2012

mimelim said:
This is a great add on activity, not a good focal point for the two years prior to matriculation in medical school. Admissions committees are not looking for people who know 2 years in advance that they want to go to medical school and then decide to spend their time doing something completely non-medical in that time. Having diverse interests is a huge plus for an applicant. Interesting people making for a more interesting and more rounded medical school class. Do not let anyone tell you otherwise.

What you have to realize is that you are sinking a huge amount of time into this. You have to consider what other pre-meds would do with 2 full years off and compare that to what you are doing and how adcoms would consider them differently. This is an add on, NOT a focal point. I'll give you my personal example. I am a rock climber. I spent an inordinate amount of time training and climbing given the limitations of undergrad and medical school, probably on the order of 12-15 hours a week. I invested a great deal of time, energy, focus because that is what I enjoy, I also happen to be rather good at it. But, while I could see myself spending 2 years in Yosemite or southern Spain climbing, the reality is, as a future Physician (and now as a Physician), it is illogical to overly invest in something that just is completely outside the realm of medicine. It just isn't relavent enough.

Even though i dont know nearly as much about the process as you do, i do know someone who spend two years off surfing around the world (on her parent's money) and did absolutely nothing else (no community service, shadowing, volunteering, etc). she wasn't surfing professionally, but she did do it at a rather high level and it's a hobby that she enjoys. she received over 10 interviews and every single one of them focused/praised this activity.

so i think spending two years rock climbing at yosemite is most definitely a unique and potential benenficial way to spend gap years

you claim that medical schools want/expect applicants to spend the time leading up to matriculation focusing on medical-related activities. while i dont know what adcoms want, this sentiment seems to go against everything i've been told over the past by people on SDN, advisers, etc. i apologize if i misinterpreted your comments, but i really cannot see how "Admissions committees are not looking for people who know 2 years in advance that they want to go to medical school and then decide to spend their time doing something completely non-medical in that time"

isn't it the exact OPPOSITE? dont adcoms WANT people to do something unique and personally meaningful and not just follow the typical cookie cutter activites, not that there's anything wrong with them? arent gap years supposed to be a time to explore/do things unrelated to medicine (keep in mind that i am doing clinical stuff in addition to art)? because once medical school starts, you'll have more than enough medicine to do.

i am not trying to challenge you or anything because you obviously know more about everything than i do. but what you just said really contradicts the prevalent notion

mimelim · Nov 13, 2012

aspiring20 said:
Even though i dont know nearly as much about the process as you do, i do know someone who spend two years off surfing around the world (on her parent's money) and did absolutely nothing else (no community service, shadowing, volunteering, etc). she wasn't surfing professionally, but she did do it at a rather high level and it's a hobby that she enjoys. she received over 10 interviews and every single one of them focused/praised this activity.

so i think spending two years rock climbing at yosemite is most definitely a unique and potential benenficial way to spend gap years

you claim that medical schools want/expect applicants to spend the time leading up to matriculation focusing on medical-related activities. while i dont know what adcoms want, this sentiment seems to go against everything i've been told over the past by people on SDN, advisers, etc. i apologize if i misinterpreted your comments, but i really cannot see how "Admissions committees are not looking for people who know 2 years in advance that they want to go to medical school and then decide to spend their time doing something completely non-medical in that time"

isn't it the exact OPPOSITE? dont adcoms WANT people to do something unique and personally meaningful and not just follow the typical cookie cutter activites, not that there's anything wrong with them? arent gap years supposed to be a time to explore/do things unrelated to medicine (keep in mind that i am doing clinical stuff in addition to art)? because once medical school starts, you'll have more than enough medicine to do.

i am not trying to challenge you or anything because you obviously know more about everything than i do. but what you just said really contradicts the prevalent notion

I am the foremost advocate of ECs mattering on SDN. Just look at my other big posts on SDN. I was a 3.45/40+ and while I interviewed at HMS, Hopkins, Wash U etc. it was mostly my ECs that got me those interviews. I am a firm believer that grades/scores are a marker of academic prowess and not much more. The issue is why the heck are you taking a gap year, much less TWO gap years. Again, I am an advocate of non-trad and taking gap years even though I was neither. But there needs to be a damn good reason, not just, "I wanted to relax". If you can ditch a project like this on a whim, why are you thinking of 'dedicating' 2 years to it?

Also, the number of hours you do things are irrelevant. People over-inflate, over-estimate and experiences vary so widely that there really isn't much stock in just the numbers. Obviously the difference between a zero and a little is large and more is better than less, but the reality is, you can't bank on 'number of hours' to emphasize interest in medicine or having any clue what you are getting into. Adcoms have a very legitimate reason to question taking 2 years off to do anything. What you choose to spend your free time on in the past is a strong predictor of what you will do in the future. You just can't compare an local based solitary activity, regardless of creativity to most other ECs, especially not medically based ECs.

aspiring20 · Nov 13, 2012

mimelim said:
I am the foremost advocate of ECs mattering on SDN. Just look at my other big posts on SDN. I was a 3.45/40+ and while I interviewed at HMS, Hopkins, Wash U etc. it was mostly my ECs that got me those interviews. I am a firm believer that grades/scores are a marker of academic prowess and not much more. The issue is why the heck are you taking a gap year, much less TWO gap years. Again, I am an advocate of non-trad and taking gap years even though I was neither. But there needs to be a damn good reason, not just, "I wanted to relax". If you can ditch a project like this on a whim, why are you thinking of 'dedicating' 2 years to it?

Also, the number of hours you do things are irrelevant. People over-inflate, over-estimate and experiences vary so widely that there really isn't much stock in just the numbers. Obviously the difference between a zero and a little is large and more is better than less, but the reality is, you can't bank on 'number of hours' to emphasize interest in medicine or having any clue what you are getting into. Adcoms have a very legitimate reason to question taking 2 years off to do anything. What you choose to spend your free time on in the past is a strong predictor of what you will do in the future. You just can't compare an local based solitary activity, regardless of creativity to most other ECs, especially not medically based ECs.

Does the reason have to be medically related? is exploring another passion (that i've developed over the past 12-15 yrs) while i still have the time be a sufficient reason? this seems like a very good reason according to a lot of other people, that we should do something non-medical during gap years.

also, if you dont mind me asking, what were some of your ECs that really set you apart?

in addition, isn't hospital volunteering the most common/only method that most successful applicants list to demonstrate their desire to go into medicine? after all, the average for matriculants is around 150 hrs of clinical volunteering. sure, some have really impressive clinical jobs in lieu of hospital volunteering, but those are in the minority.

lastly, i know that plenty of "cookie-cutter" applicants get in without anything unusual/outside of the normal checklist of items...

aspiring20 · Nov 13, 2012

mimelim said:
I am the foremost advocate of ECs mattering on SDN. Just look at my other big posts on SDN. I was a 3.45/40+ and while I interviewed at HMS, Hopkins, Wash U etc. it was mostly my ECs that got me those interviews. I am a firm believer that grades/scores are a marker of academic prowess and not much more. The issue is why the heck are you taking a gap year, much less TWO gap years. Again, I am an advocate of non-trad and taking gap years even though I was neither. But there needs to be a damn good reason, not just, "I wanted to relax". If you can ditch a project like this on a whim, why are you thinking of 'dedicating' 2 years to it?

Also, the number of hours you do things are irrelevant. People over-inflate, over-estimate and experiences vary so widely that there really isn't much stock in just the numbers. Obviously the difference between a zero and a little is large and more is better than less, but the reality is, you can't bank on 'number of hours' to emphasize interest in medicine or having any clue what you are getting into. Adcoms have a very legitimate reason to question taking 2 years off to do anything. What you choose to spend your free time on in the past is a strong predictor of what you will do in the future. You just can't compare an local based solitary activity, regardless of creativity to most other ECs, especially not medically based ECs.

the reason is really quite simple. my application just isn't ready yet after graduation, and you shouldn't apply until you are ready. i need time to study for the MCAT, take a few additional science classes, do community service with an organization that i admire and respect, continue exploration of the field of medicine via volunteering and shadowing, and in addition to bolstering all aspects of my application, to pursue this artistic endeavor that i never had time to before, and never will have time for in the future.

and i would disagree that this is a local-based activity, since i've traveled out of the country twice to prepare for it

mimelim · Nov 13, 2012

aspiring20 said:
Does the reason have to be medically related? is exploring another passion (that i've developed over the past 12-15 yrs) while i still have the time be a sufficient reason? this seems like a very good reason according to a lot of other people, that we should do something non-medical during gap years.

also, if you dont mind me asking, what were some of your ECs that really set you apart?

in addition, isn't hospital volunteering the most common/only method that most successful applicants list to demonstrate their desire to go into medicine? after all, the average for matriculants is around 150 hrs of clinical volunteering. sure, some have really impressive clinical jobs in lieu of hospital volunteering, but those are in the minority.

lastly, i know that plenty of "cookie-cutter" applicants get in without anything unusual/outside of the normal checklist of items...

Having outside hobbies or interests is a good thing. Not everything you do has to be medically related. But, realize that if it isn't medically related it will be scrutinized. These aren't your peers who will be judging this, it will be faculty. If they don't understand what you were spending your time doing, and you sunk a large amount of time in this, it won't go well. In general, introverted, local activities are hard to explain the utility of. For instance, I'm sure there are people who do very complex, creative things in video games and are very good at it. But, I wouldn't try to explain to an adcom anything having to do with WOW.

re: hospital volunteering - ECs aren't about the number of hours. Hospital volunteering doesn't mean much by itself. It also doesn't demonstrate that you know anything about going into medicine. Shadowing is more useful for the latter. What you learned from your experiences is the most important thing, not the number of hours. The other component of course is production. People who produce and demonstrate skills in any realm, are going to be productive in medicine. If you can demonstrate that in anything, it will do wonders for your application.

Me personally, I had a good research portfolio. Publications, yes, but more than that, I built a beowulf cluster for a lab, optimized genome sequencing and gene identification process (mostly coding), etc. A couple of things that fundamentally changed how a couple of labs functioned. I also TAed Physics for 3 years, helped change how we taught pre-med Physics. Rock climbing, club volleyball all while never taking less than 18 credits a semester as a Physics major. I didn't really sleep much since I also met my wife as a freshman and got addicted to online poker as well...

Lollygag · Nov 13, 2012

aspiring20 said:
the reason is really quite simple. my application just isn't ready yet after graduation, and you shouldn't apply until you are ready. i need time to study for the MCAT, take a few additional science classes, do community service with an organization that i admire and respect, continue exploration of the field of medicine via volunteering and shadowing, and in addition to bolstering all aspects of my application, to pursue this artistic endeavor that i never had time to before, and never will have time for in the future.

and i would disagree that this is a local-based activity, since i've traveled out of the country twice to prepare for it

But if you're doing community service medicine and non-medicine related, still taking classes, still shadowing and pursuing an artistic endeavor then I would think that's different than just taking a year off to pursue an artistic endeavor.

Like if an ADCOM asked you why you took so much time off it would be one thing if you just said I want to pursue an artistic endeavor, it would be a complete other to say that you weren't sure if you were ready for medical school and you wanted to take time off to prepare yourself more by taking some extra classes, doing community service medicine and non-medicine related, continuing to shadowing and to fill up the rest of your time you pursued an artistic endeavor. I think that would be 10x more acceptable.

aspiring20 · Nov 13, 2012

mimelim said:
Having outside hobbies or interests is a good thing. Not everything you do has to be medically related. But, realize that if it isn't medically related it will be scrutinized. These aren't your peers who will be judging this, it will be faculty. If they don't understand what you were spending your time doing, and you sunk a large amount of time in this, it won't go well. In general, introverted, local activities are hard to explain the utility of. For instance, I'm sure there are people who do very complex, creative things in video games and are very good at it. But, I wouldn't try to explain to an adcom anything having to do with WOW.

re: hospital volunteering - ECs aren't about the number of hours. Hospital volunteering doesn't mean much by itself. It also doesn't demonstrate that you know anything about going into medicine. Shadowing is more useful for the latter. What you learned from your experiences is the most important thing, not the number of hours. The other component of course is production. People who produce and demonstrate skills in any realm, are going to be productive in medicine. If you can demonstrate that in anything, it will do wonders for your application.

Me personally, I had a good research portfolio. Publications, yes, but more than that, I built a beowulf cluster for a lab, optimized genome sequencing and gene identification process (mostly coding), etc. A couple of things that fundamentally changed how a couple of labs functioned. I also TAed Physics for 3 years, helped change how we taught pre-med Physics. Rock climbing, club volleyball all while never taking less than 18 credits a semester as a Physics major. I didn't really sleep much since I also met my wife as a freshman and got addicted to online poker as well...

i complete agree with this. but it just happens that the thing i am very skilled at and have "produced" in is exactly the sort of solitary endeavor you described. and since you said any realm, iam assuming that it doesn't have to be narrowly confined to the sciences.

and that's some very substantial/impressive ECs you got...no wonder you received invites from so many top schools

aspiring20 · Nov 13, 2012

Lollygag said:
But if you're doing community service medicine and non-medicine related, still taking classes, still shadowing and pursuing an artistic endeavor then I would think that's different than just taking a year off to pursue an artistic endeavor.

Like if an ADCOM asked you why you took so much time off it would be one thing if you just said I want to pursue an artistic endeavor, it would be a complete other to say that you weren't sure if you were ready for medical school and you wanted to take time off to prepare yourself more by taking some extra classes, doing community service medicine and non-medicine related, continuing to shadowing and to fill up the rest of your time you pursued an artistic endeavor. I think that would be 10x more acceptable.

this is what i hope adcoms would feel. but to clarify, i am taking classes to raise my science GPA and spending plenty of time studying for the MCAT, which i need a high score on.

i've known i wanted to be a physician before the half way point of college...it's just that certain aspects of my app needs a bit more work on.

so one aspect is boosting my app, the other is doing something i genuinely want to do

mimelim · Nov 13, 2012

aspiring20 said:
the reason is really quite simple. my application just isn't ready yet after graduation, and you shouldn't apply until you are ready. i need time to study for the MCAT, take a few additional science classes, do community service with an organization that i admire and respect, continue exploration of the field of medicine via volunteering and shadowing, and in addition to bolstering all aspects of my application, to pursue this artistic endeavor that i never had time to before, and never will have time for in the future.

and i would disagree that this is a local-based activity, since i've traveled out of the country twice to prepare for it

I guess the question is, what did you do with your time in undergrad that all of this needs to be done after? Most pre-meds get all of those things done in 4 years. Very few take 6 years. I didn't know I was applying to medical school until my Junior year in college and didn't take extra time to get things together. From a prerequisite perspective it doesn't take long to get all of your things in line for medical school. Those that figure it out late typically take a gap year as a buffer.

To be blunt, the people at the top schools all had things like your EC. Most made me feel like I could have done more. BUT, most of them, there was ZERO questioning their commitment to medicine or their desire to go to medical school. It is amazing that at the schools that I didn't matriculate at, I STILL remember 5+ years later a dozen or so of them. Not their names, but certainly their faces/stories. Those that had particularly notable non-medical ECs always had something else that they were doing concurrently (they just happened to be amazing and did both at the same time). That was my experience at those schools. I found the 'lower' schools to be less interested in those kinds of ECs and more focused on numbers. I'm not saying that you 'can't' get in doing this or virtually anything else... I'm saying that it is 'sub-optimal' and can put you in a tricky spot if you aren't careful. In general, the more you have to explain of your situation or what you did, the harder of a sell it is.

Lollygag · Nov 13, 2012

And this may sound like I'm ranting lol but I just don't get why there is so much opposition to taking time off to do something you enjoy.

When you decide to go into medicine, you are giving up a huge part of your 20s to long hours studying and countless hours in residency. And after residency, you may have a family so again, a huge portion of your time will be taken up; things like traveling the world, learning new languages, taking up a time consuming skill or hobby.. you may never have that chance again until retirement, we just won't have the luxury.

I would understand that an ADCOM doesn't care for you doing it and won't give you any brownie points for taking time off to pursue something you enjoy. But the fact that it would HURT your chances just seems unfair. But I guess thats life.

mimelim · Nov 13, 2012

Lollygag said:
And this may sound like I'm ranting lol but I just don't get why there is so much opposition to taking time off to do something you enjoy.

When you decide to go into medicine, you are giving up a huge part of your 20s to long hours studying and countless hours in residency. And after residency, you may have a family so again, a huge portion of your time will be taken up; things like traveling the world, learning new languages, taking up a time consuming skill or hobby.. you may never have that chance again until retirement, we just won't have the luxury.

I would understand that an ADCOM doesn't care for you doing it and won't give you any brownie points for taking time off to pursue something you enjoy. But the fact that it would HURT your chances just seems unfair. But I guess thats life.

Personally, as long as they are academically sound, I'd take a non-trad or someone who has explored something else extensively over a cookie cutter any day. But, if you go off the beaten path you have to justify it to people. It sucks and yes, you shouldn't have to, but to get recognition, you have to be able to explain what you did with your time. You also have to realize that not everyone wants to listen.

aspiring20 · Nov 13, 2012

mimelim said:
I guess the question is, what did you do with your time in undergrad that all of this needs to be done after? Most pre-meds get all of those things done in 4 years. Very few take 6 years. I didn't know I was applying to medical school until my Junior year in college and didn't take extra time to get things together. From a prerequisite perspective it doesn't take long to get all of your things in line for medical school. Those that figure it out late typically take a gap year as a buffer.

To be blunt, the people at the top schools all had things like your EC. Most made me feel like I could have done more. BUT, most of them, there was ZERO questioning their commitment to medicine or their desire to go to medical school. It is amazing that at the schools that I didn't matriculate at, I STILL remember 5+ years later a dozen or so of them. Not their names, but certainly their faces/stories. Those that had particularly notable non-medical ECs always had something else that they were doing concurrently (they just happened to be amazing and did both at the same time). That was my experience at those schools. I found the 'lower' schools to be less interested in those kinds of ECs and more focused on numbers. I'm not saying that you 'can't' get in doing this or virtually anything else... I'm saying that it is 'sub-optimal' and can put you in a tricky spot if you aren't careful. In general, the more you have to explain of your situation or what you did, the harder of a sell it is.

that's a great question. to be fair, i already have "what i need" from an EC perspective, so all the additional things are done to make my app even stronger. i did hospital volunteering, community serivce, tutoring, lab research, club participation, and honors thesis during undergrad.

but because i went through some emotional issues and my art major was immensely demanding in terms of time commitment (40hrs a week on art is not uncommon), i wasn't able to finish one prereq (physics 2) and my overall science GPA is on the low side.

many people do all of that in 4 years, but i guess i am just a bit slow. and i dont think that spending an extra 40 hrs a week publishing a 200 page novel is something i could realistically achieve while still in undergrad, especially during senior yr when i was already spending 40 hrs/week on my honors thesis that barely got done the last minute.

but i can definitely see why this can be a concern. but there's nothing i can do about it but charge forward. and i think that i will have better and more activities in six years than the typical premed in 3-4 years. i think it will show on my final app

aspiring20 · Nov 13, 2012

mimelim said:
Personally, as long as they are academically sound, I'd take a non-trad or someone who has explored something else extensively over a cookie cutter any day. But, if you go off the beaten path you have to justify it to people. It sucks and yes, you shouldn't have to, but to get recognition, you have to be able to explain what you did with your time. You also have to realize that not everyone wants to listen.

this is an extremely important thing you just said. from this conversation, i am getting the feeling that some adcoms (especially at the top) don't really want non-traditional paths to med school, even though they dont say it on the surface.

it seems to me that they want people who take the traditional path that everyone else takes and do what everyone else does, just better and more.

it isn't fair, but i guess it is what it is

supposedly that i apply with sound academics and all 15 AMCAS spots filled with meaningful/non BS ECs. i would hope that that would be viewed as a plus, not a negative because i spent six years building my application.

Doodledog · Nov 13, 2012

aspiring20 said:
this is an extremely important thing you just said. from this conversation, i am getting the feeling that some adcoms (especially at the top) don't really want non-traditional paths to med school, even though they dont say it on the surface.

it seems to me that they want people who take the traditional path that everyone else takes and do what everyone else does, just better and more.

it isn't fair, but i guess it is what it is

I am puzzled that you have something you want to do so passionately and are being so negative and discouraged by the views of a very few people, in person and on line. Adcom members are diverse in their views on almost everything. It is my opinion, that taking 2 years or even more to do something you want would MOSTLY be seen as a positive by most adcom members and certainly spark a nice discussion. Of course, if you are defensive about it, in your interviews, essays, etc, then it might raise a red flag. But if you are positive about why you did it and what it added to your life, it could also be a strong suit in the whole application.

Adcom members are mostly in favor of taking applicants who they think will contribute to their field, in this case medicine, and their school. You should do what you want with your next few years and not do what a few people, including SDN members, especially me, tell you is best for your application.

Best of luck and I hope you'll post more and tell as about what you did with your time off.

wholeheartedly · Nov 13, 2012

Just a pre-med still, but I agree with Tildy. I do the think you'll need to be able to explain why your activity was important to you, but I don't think it will be an application sinker. I agree it will be viewed differently by different people. You should definitely be dedicated to medicine, but I don't think showing a strong passion for something else, something else you might not get the opportunity to do again, is a bad thing. Personally, I say go for it, especially if you're bolstering your app in other ways and still maintaining your foot in the medical field during those two years. This is your life and you're the one that will have to live with the regret of not doing it. I might be biased though, as I'm an artist as well.

As an aside, I had the opportunity to work with a pathologist in my hometown for awhile and he was highly respected by his colleagues for his skill and dedication to his field. I later found out from one the techs in his lab that he's also a gifted sculptor and has been commissioned to do major pieces, including one for a university. I was pretty surprised when I saw some of his pieces. The point is, you can have more than one major passion in life if you're willing to work on balance. I think doing this activity before taking on the demands medical school is a form of balance.

aspiring20 · Nov 13, 2012

i appreciate all of your responses. and i agree that it is somewhat a character flaw of mine that i place too much emphasis on how someone else looks at me/views my work.

speaking of this project, it is a 150-200 graphic novel (which i will publish) about a major (non-political) event that happened in the past 20 years. This event has touched me greatly ever since I visited the country (right before undergrad) that the event took place in and did some non-medical community service at the site of the event. I've wanted to return to the country and do something about the aftermath of the event during my academic pursuits in undergrad, but unfortunately, i never got the opportunity to do so, which is shameful considering how many opportunities my undergrad offered. I even applied for an art scholarship that will help fund this project, but unfortunately again, i didn't win the award.

However, i am very passionate about this, so I went to that country again on my own dime right after undergrad and conducted weeks of field research (taking pictures, visiting museums, talking/living with the locals who lived through the event, etc), which serves as foundation for this project.

As for the graphic novel part, my honors thesis in my major started out as a graphic novel. but the project for too ambitious for a senior research thesis and i had to curtail it in order to meet expectations and finish on time. I had to sacrifice physics 2 a second time in order to finish my thesis, and I still wasn't able to publish my own novel.

So combining my desire to publish my own graphic novel and the desire to raise awareness of the event and tell the moving stories of the survivors, i decided to embark on this endeavor. The book will be published, have an ISBN, and be available for sale. though making money is not my objective in the least bit. One of my professors from undergrad will write me a LOR commenting on the project and describe the steps I had to take to get it completed.

i believe that by completing this project, i will demonstrate qualities such as perseverance, commitment, and dedication to something over a long term. it also illustrates how i am willing to overcome obstacles and complete something regardless of the time/energy it takes. hopefully, these will resonate with some adcoms.

in addition to this, i will of course have all the traditional ECs that adcoms expect.

Aerus · Nov 13, 2012

I don't see any problem with pursuing this. The adcom you spoke with probably shared a mutual concern that Mimelim had, that if you're sinking in two years to pursue one artistic endeavor and nothing else. That, as a whole, doesn't seem to connect itself too much with medicine.

However, you say you're also shadowing, volunteering, taking classes. That itself is a great reason to pursue your gap year(s). Adding the graphic novel is a huge plus.

In the future, when you're questioned about it, think of something you learned or used that could potentially be useful to the medical field.

Certainly your dedication to such a huge artistic project, your creativity, your open mind (how you traveled to prepare for this), your passion towards this cause in which you're publishing about - all of these traits, you could probably spin to an adcom member as useful to a physician.

I wish you the best of luck. =)

aspiring20 · Nov 13, 2012

Aerus said:
I don't see any problem with pursuing this. The adcom you spoke with probably shared a mutual concern that Mimelim had, that if you're sinking in two years to pursue one artistic endeavor and nothing else. That, as a whole, doesn't seem to connect itself too much with medicine.

However, you say you're also shadowing, volunteering, taking classes. That itself is a great reason to pursue your gap year(s). Adding the graphic novel is a huge plus.

In the future, when you're questioned about it, think of something you learned or used that could potentially be useful to the medical field.

Certainly your dedication to such a huge artistic project, your creativity, your open mind (how you traveled to prepare for this), your passion towards this cause in which you're publishing about - all of these traits, you could probably spin to an adcom member as useful to a physician.

I wish you the best of luck. =)

i would certainly hope and pray that this is the case and that adcoms will be convinced

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