Looks like General Surgery mostly a reach for DO's?

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Anicetus

Anicetus

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I have been wanting to be a general surgeon. The general idea at least on SDN was that it was totally possible for DO's. Upon reading some threads like the one below, it seems as if DO's are literally just bound to be primary care (IM/FM/EM) and have to really stretch their boundaries to reach an ACGME general surgery residency.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=933492&highlight=DO+schools+general+surgery

Do most of the people that go to DO schools plan on wanting to go into primary care? Or are a good number of them just matching to primary care because they realize when it is too late that they can't get into specialties?
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Anicetus said:
I have been wanting to be a general surgeon. The general idea at least on SDN was that it was totally possible for DO's. Upon reading some threads like the one below, it seems as if DO's are literally just bound to be primary care (IM/FM/EM) and have to really stretch their boundaries to reach an ACGME general surgery residency.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=933492&highlight=DO+schools+general+surgery

Do most of the people that go to DO schools plan on wanting to go into primary care? Or are a good number of them just matching to primary care because they realize when it is too late that they can't get into specialties?
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Your degree has NOTHING to do with becoming a surgeon. Start with getting into medical school, then do well on Step 1 and your rotations, THEN worry about residency. By then there will only be one residency accreditation program (thus all residencies will be ACGME approved). Getting in or not will be based upon your abilities and performance, not your degree.
 
LifeTake2 said:
Your degree has NOTHING to do with becoming a surgeon. Start with getting into medical school, then do well on Step 1 and your rotations, THEN worry about residency. By then there will only be one residency accreditation program (thus all residencies will be ACGME approved). Getting in or not will be based upon your abilities and performance, not your degree.
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According to the thread I posted, some residencies will choose to not even interview DO's just because of their degrees. Having a 260 on Step 1 and no interview is just the scariest thing imaginable.
 
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LifeTake2 said:
Your degree has NOTHING to do with becoming a surgeon. Start with getting into medical school, then do well on Step 1 and your rotations, THEN worry about residency. By then there will only be one residency accreditation program (thus all residencies will be ACGME approved). Getting in or not will be based upon your abilities and performance, not your degree.
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Ugh hate it when premeds talk with certainty about something they have zero experience with.
 
sylvanthus said:
Ugh hate it when premeds talk with certainty about something they have zero experience with.
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Sylvanthus: What was your desired residency when you first came into medical school and why did you go for IMs in the end?
 
KCUMB had 9 students match in general surgery, a few in orthopedic surgery, and one in otolaryngology/plastics... If you want to get into surgical residencies you just need to score well on step I and get some good ECs.
 
pathologyDO said:
KCUMB had 9 students match in general surgery, a few in orthopedic surgery, and one in otolaryngology/plastics... If you want to get into surgical residencies you just need to score well on step I and get some good ECs.
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Were those AOA or ACGME residencies?

Edit: Nevermind just saw the match list. Only two were ACGME.
 
Once the merger is through, they will all be ACGME residencies, and the fact will still remain that many D.O.s (that want to seek surgical residencies) will get accepted into those residencies. Some will tell you that there are still some old school PDs that have a bias against D.O.s, but there are many more that will accept D.O.s. Many students currently match into osteopathic residencies because they don't have to compete against M.D.s.. its not as simple as just saying that they don't get into ACGME because they aren't able to

And yes, many D.O. students do want to be a PCP, so that is one reason that many match into those residencies
 
Anicetus said:
Were those AOA or ACGME residencies?

Edit: Nevermind just saw the match list. Only two were ACGME.
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Well your original post said "looks like gen surg mostly a reach for DO". It didn't say "looks like ACGME gen surg mostly a reach for DO"

But yeah, get into med school, get the requisite board scores and other miscellaneous residency app pieces into place, then apply to places you're interested in/competitive at, and you'll match general surgery, even as a DO.

It's not the easiest field to match ACGME as a DO, but it's far from the most difficult.

Many people do it every single year.
 
Since when was general surgery a "reach" residency for DOs? :diebanana:
 
MDforMee said:
Since when was general surgery a "reach" residency for DOs? :diebanana:
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Since reading on the DO threads about their residencies and residency chances. The actual DO threads and not the pre-DO threads.
 
NYU has an Ortho and General Surgeon on as faculty
 
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Anicetus said:
Since reading on the DO threads about their residencies and residency chances. The actual DO threads and not the pre-DO threads.
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Maybe you should look at who's complaining, then.

I see general surgery matched all the time.

Here's Touro CA's match list for the last few years:

2012 General Surgery IA Mercy Medical Center AOA
2012 General Surgery MI Henry Ford Wyandotte AOA
2012 General Surgery NY Peninsula Hospital Center AOA
2011 General Surgery CA Kern Medical Center – CA ACGME
2010 General Surgery MI Genesys Regional Medical Center – MI AOA
2010 General Surgery NY St. Barnabas Hospital – Bronx, NY AOA
2010 General Surgery NY St. Barnabas Hospital – Bronx, NY AOA
2009 General Surgery CA Harbor UCLA Medical Center – CA ACGME
2009 General Surgery CA Arrowhead Regional Med Center – CA AOA
2009 General Surgery MI Oakwood Southshore Med Center – MI AOA
2009 General Surgery MI St. John Health – Warren, MI AOA
2009 General Surgery NY Peninsula Hospital – Far Rockaway NY AOA
2009 General Surgery NY St. John's Episcopal – Far Rockaway, NY AOA
2009 General Surgery OH Wright-Patterson AFB – OH MIL

The average is 3.5 matches per year out of a decent DO school.

There were also a lot of prelim surgeries, too

2012 Surgical Preliminary CA Alameda County Medical Center ACGME
2012 Surgical Preliminary CA Loma Linda University ACGME
2012 Surgical Preliminary CA University of California - Irvine ACGME
2011 Surgery Preliminary CO Exempla St. Joseph Hospital – CO ACGME
2010 Surgery Preliminary CT Danbury Hospital – CT ACGME
2010 Surgery-Preliminary CA UC San Diego Medical Center – CA ACGME
2009 Surgery-Preliminary CA Kern Medical Center – CA ACGME


:diebanana:
 
pathologyDO said:
Once the merger is through, they will all be ACGME residencies,
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and the Program Directors will magically no longer care who they interview and all of their biases will dissolve upon the waving of the magic pen on the paper and they all lived happily ever after. The end.

Tell yourself whatever you would like to keep your flimsy worldview coherent :shrug: This topic has been beaten to death and you have zero experience to draw from here.
 
MDforMee said:
Maybe you should look at who's complaining, then.

I see general surgery matched all the time.

Here's Touro CA's match list for the last few years:

2012 General Surgery IA Mercy Medical Center AOA
2012 General Surgery MI Henry Ford Wyandotte AOA
2012 General Surgery NY Peninsula Hospital Center AOA
2011 General Surgery CA Kern Medical Center – CA ACGME
2010 General Surgery MI Genesys Regional Medical Center – MI AOA
2010 General Surgery NY St. Barnabas Hospital – Bronx, NY AOA
2010 General Surgery NY St. Barnabas Hospital – Bronx, NY AOA
2009 General Surgery CA Harbor UCLA Medical Center – CA ACGME
2009 General Surgery CA Arrowhead Regional Med Center – CA AOA
2009 General Surgery MI Oakwood Southshore Med Center – MI AOA
2009 General Surgery MI St. John Health – Warren, MI AOA
2009 General Surgery NY Peninsula Hospital – Far Rockaway NY AOA
2009 General Surgery NY St. John’s Episcopal – Far Rockaway, NY AOA
2009 General Surgery OH Wright-Patterson AFB – OH MIL

The average is 3.5 matches per year out of a decent DO school.

There were also a lot of prelim surgeries, too

2012 Surgical Preliminary CA Alameda County Medical Center ACGME
2012 Surgical Preliminary CA Loma Linda University ACGME
2012 Surgical Preliminary CA University of California - Irvine ACGME
2011 Surgery Preliminary CO Exempla St. Joseph Hospital – CO ACGME
2010 Surgery Preliminary CT Danbury Hospital – CT ACGME
2010 Surgery-Preliminary CA UC San Diego Medical Center – CA ACGME
2009 Surgery-Preliminary CA Kern Medical Center – CA ACGME


:diebanana:
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I wouldn't want to match prelim surg :scared: and I see only 2 ACGME matches there not counting prelim. .
 
This year SOMA matched I think 6-7 to gen surg (not including prelims), and 2-3 ACGME
 
Didierdrogba said:
You can't do an ACGME program if you match into AOA bro
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I should start from the beginning

Why would you do a ACGME program if you are doing a DO program and could match into an AOA residency for surgery?
 
<--- DO general surgery resident and lovin' life. It's totally doable.

Survivor DO
 
survivordo said:
<--- DO general surgery resident and lovin' life. It's totally doable.

Survivor DO
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I think the problem here is people equate "possible" with "probable". I'm not even suggesting that it is improbable. But it is significantly harder as evidenced by the match lists and stats. So many pre-meds still have the "I'm a special snowflake" mentality such that they just assume they will be the one to over achieve as opposed to the rest of their already overachieving class.
 
Beargryllz said:
I should start from the beginning

Why would you do a ACGME program if you are doing a DO program and could match into an AOA residency for surgery?
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How many ACGME preliminary surgeries do you see on the Touro list I posted?

How many AOA preliminary surgeries do you see?

How many matched AOA general surgeries do you see?

All those ACGME prelim surgery DOs are gunning for an ACGME residency. 👎
 
My thinking is that if most of the DO graduates are mostly getting into AOA residencies that it would make much more sense to match into one of these, no?

Why try to squeeze into an ACGME residency especially if you can only choose between AOA or ACGME and not apply to both?
 
Beargryllz said:
My thinking is that if most of the DO graduates are mostly getting into AOA residencies that it would make much more sense to match into one of these, no?

Why try to squeeze into an ACGME residency especially if you can only choose between AOA or ACGME and not apply to both?
Click to expand...

It's the status, breh. That's why I put the thumbs down in there.

37003392.jpg
 
Beargryllz said:
My thinking is that if most of the DO graduates are mostly getting into AOA residencies that it would make much more sense to match into one of these, no?

Why try to squeeze into an ACGME residency especially if you can only choose between AOA or ACGME and not apply to both?
Click to expand...

There are very few (like.... none) AOA surgery spots remaining at the end of the match. If those vying for ACGME were to go AOA instead there would be many more unmatched DO grads. There is a supply and demand angle here that you aren't acknowledging.
 
MDforMee said:
It's the status, breh. That's why I put the thumbs down in there.
Click to expand...

Status? How do you figure? When was the last time you saw your doctor's residency location printed next to his title? Don't diminish the professional decisions of your potential future colleagues with your pre-med naivete, please.
 
SpecterGT260 said:
There are very few (like.... none) AOA surgery spots remaining at the end of the match. If those vying for ACGME were to go AOA instead there would be many more unmatched DO grads. There is a supply and demand angle here that you aren't acknowledging.
Click to expand...

I probably wouldn't acknowledge anything I was unaware of

Still, from this data it looks like most of the DOs going into surgery are matching into AOA programs.
 
SpecterGT260 said:
Status? How do you figure? When was the last time you saw your doctor's residency location printed next to his title? Don't diminish the professional decisions of your potential future colleagues with your pre-med naivete, please.
Click to expand...

Perhaps you'd care to enlighten us as to why no one is holding out for a prelim surgery AOA slot, then, little lord fontleroy?
 
survivordo said:
<--- DO general surgery resident and lovin' life. It's totally doable.

Survivor DO
Click to expand...

SLC said:
Well your original post said "looks like gen surg mostly a reach for DO". It didn't say "looks like ACGME gen surg mostly a reach for DO"

But yeah, get into med school, get the requisite board scores and other miscellaneous residency app pieces into place, then apply to places you're interested in/competitive at, and you'll match general surgery, even as a DO.

It's not the easiest field to match ACGME as a DO, but it's far from the most difficult.

Many people do it every single year.
Click to expand...

👍


edit: these threads seem to pop up from time to time and the same thoughts are shared back and forth. I guess its good, since there are people who are reading this for the first time, even though it feel like the poor horse has been beaten through the zombie apocalypse and back.

But, the idea I think is good for we pre-meds to know is that there is general opportunity for DO and MDs alike. You will have more doors open to you, in some specialties, if you go to an MD school. Thats just how it is. But, you'll have a shot at medicine or surgery either way and, really, who knows which sub-specialty you'll actually fall in love with in the end.

So, get into a school. If you get into a few schools, choose your favorite. Then, work hard to get wherever it is you want to go.
 
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MDforMee said:
Perhaps you'd care to enlighten us as to why no one is holding out for a prelim surgery AOA slot, then, little lord fontleroy?
Click to expand...

Because there aren't any?
Here you are: http://data.aacom.org/media/DO_GME_match_2011.pdf pg. 38. The AOA doesn't even approach the level of the ACGME in terms of size and the number of available seats. Out of ~5000 DO graduates every year (compared to 20-25k MD grads, for perspective), there are only 104 seats. Them ain't good odds. Compare that to 10x that many seats in the ACGME, ( http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2012.pdf ) plus another 10x prelim seats (only ~55% of which go filled) and well.... I honestly don't see where your confusion lies other than in a bad case of hopeful ignorance.

Now, to be straight with you here, you are more than welcome to put your foot in your mouth as long and as often as you wish, but I am only coming at you like this because of your smug tone while simultaneously throwing a number of DO students and graduates under the bus concerning their choice to go ACGME based on what is literally zero information and only a "gut feeling" based on what your ego hopes is true :shrug: Add to that the fact that you still may not even become a physician..... and.... well..... :shrug:
Oh, and it should be "Fountelroy". 👍
 
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Beargryllz said:
I probably wouldn't acknowledge anything I was unaware of

Still, from this data it looks like most of the DOs going into surgery are matching into AOA programs.
Click to expand...

which data are you looking at? I just linked both the AOA self-published data and the NRMP data. There are nearly 20x seats in the ACGME vs the AOA. Of these, there were 56 DOs to match either Gsurg or prelim surg in 2012 (pg. 5. the 2013 data isnt posted yet that I have seen) and there were 102 AOA matches meaning that ~1/3 of DOs chose to go ACGME in spite of the fact that there is no competition from MDs in the AOA match.
 
SpecterGT260 said:
Because there aren't any?
Here you are: http://data.aacom.org/media/DO_GME_match_2011.pdf pg. 38. The AOA doesn't even approach the level of the ACGME in terms of size and the number of available seats. Out of ~5000 DO graduates every year (compared to 20-25k MD grads, for perspective), there are only 104 seats. Them ain't good odds. Compare that to 10x that many seats in the ACGME, ( http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2012.pdf ) plus another 10x prelim seats (only ~55% of which go filled) and well.... I honestly don't see where your confusion lies other than in a bad case of hopeful ignorance.

Now, to be straight with you here, you are more than welcome to put your foot in your mouth as long and as often as you wish, but I am only coming at you like this because of your smug tone while simultaneously throwing a number of DO students and graduates under the bus concerning their choice to go ACGME based on what is literally zero information and only a "gut feeling" based on what your ego hopes is true :shrug: Add to that the fact that you still may not even become a physician..... and.... well..... :shrug:
Oh, and it should be "Fountelroy". 👍
Click to expand...

Wow, calling me naive, hopefully ignorant, smug, etc etc.

I'm not sure what it is you hope to accomplish by participating in this forum, but your attitude isn't doing you any favors.

You should work on being collegial, and learn to contribute, not insult.

Reported to mods.
 
HalfListic said:
👍


edit: these threads seem to pop up from time to time and the same thoughts are shared back and forth. I guess its good, since there are people who are reading this for the first time, even though it feel like the poor horse has been beaten through the zombie apocalypse and back.

But, the idea I think is good for we pre-meds to know is that there is general opportunity for DO and MDs alike. You will have more doors open to you, in some specialties, if you go to an MD school. Thats just how it is. But, you'll have a shot at medicine or surgery either way and, really, who knows which sub-specialty you'll actually fall in love with in the end.

So, get into a school. If you get into a few schools, choose your favorite. Then, work hard to get wherever it is you want to go.
Click to expand...

👍👍👍
 
MDforMee said:
Wow, calling me naive, hopefully ignorant, smug, etc etc.

I'm not sure what it is you hope to accomplish by participating in this forum, but your attitude isn't doing you any favors.

You should work on being collegial, and learn to contribute, not insult.

Reported to mods.
Click to expand...

MDforMee said:
Perhaps you'd care to enlighten us as to why no one is holding out for a prelim surgery AOA slot, then, little lord fontleroy?
Click to expand...

That's ironic. And this coming after you imply that everyone who goes ACGME does so for the "glamour" or whatever it is....
 
Reading the threads on the pre-DO, there is a constant "Just get good grades, and do well on boards" response, but when data is shown, there is a clear majority that end up not going to these well desired residencies. I personally just don't think it's a good idea to feed hopes to half a class when a small handful of people actually crack into ACGME residencies.

I say ACGME vs AOA because you also have to apply to work in a particular area. People may have to go to extremely rural places to do the specialty they want in a small local hospital for AOA, but if they want to move back and work in LA/boston/NYC as an actual general surgeon, it is very difficult no? Not all of us want to stay rural for life.
 
Anicetus said:
Reading the threads on the pre-DO, there is a constant "Just get good grades, and do well on boards" response, but when data is shown, there is a clear majority that end up not going to these well desired residencies. I personally just don't think it's a good idea to feed hopes to half a class when a small handful of people actually crack into ACGME residencies.

I say ACGME vs AOA because you also have to apply to work in a particular area. People may have to go to extremely rural places to do the specialty they want in a small local hospital for AOA, but if they want to move back and work in LA/boston/NYC as an actual general surgeon, it is very difficult no? Not all of us want to stay rural for life.
Click to expand...


Maybe I haven't been on in a while, but I feel like most people are very well aware of the fact that MDs have more residency opportunities afforded them.

In fact, I think that these posts that try to "teach" this idea, over and over, is much more pervasive here in Pre-DO SDN.


The reality is that there are so many variables that go into why DOs match where they do, starting with why they are in DO school, vs MD to begin with.

So, in the end, there are DOs that match general surgery. Thats not an unrealistic goal for any medical student.

And, no, just because you trained AOA doesn't mean you are now restricted to rural areas, lol. You might have some trouble getting spot at some academic medical centers, but there are plenty of hospitals in any given city, and there are DOs getting jobs everywhere.

So, sure...false hope isn't something to propagate, but neither is inaccurate doom and gloom. Cant we just stick the the moderate, truth??
 
speculation. speculation. speculation.

truth: you can match g-surg as a DO and as an MD.

which one is easier? there is data that supports both answers--hence so much speculation.
 
HalfListic said:
Maybe I haven't been on in a while, but I feel like most people are very well aware of the fact that MDs have more residency opportunities afforded them.

In fact, I think that these posts that try to "teach" this idea, over and over, is much more pervasive here in Pre-DO SDN.


The reality is that there are so many variables that go into why DOs match where they do, starting with why they are in DO school, vs MD to begin with.

So, in the end, there are DOs that match general surgery. Thats not an unrealistic goal for any medical student.

And, no, just because you trained AOA doesn't mean you are now restricted to rural areas, lol. You might have some trouble getting spot at some academic medical centers, but there are plenty of hospitals in any given city, and there are DOs getting jobs everywhere.

So, sure...false hope isn't something to propagate, but neither is inaccurate doom and gloom. Cant we just stick the the moderate, truth??
Click to expand...

I think it is an issue for people that are applying to both MD and DO and are waging the choice of taking another year to strengthen their app and go MD only if they are gun ho for a specialty like General Surgery. IM/EM/FM are not even a question, given the match lists, but like another poster said above, everyone thinks they will be one of the special snowflakes.

It's like the first week of a class in undergrad. Everyone shows up to class for the first week of organic chemistry and asks the simplest questions and writes the neatest notes. We've all been there and done that. But, at the end of the semester/quarter, only a few of us pop out with A's while the majority pass with a B/C. I am just trying to get a feel for how general surgery residency (ACGME) is in that manner.
 
Anicetus said:
I think it is an issue for people that are applying to both MD and DO and are waging the choice of taking another year to strengthen their app and go MD only if they are gun ho for a specialty like General Surgery. IM/EM/FM are not even a question, given the match lists, but like another poster said above, everyone thinks they will be one of the special snowflakes.

It's like the first week of a class in undergrad. Everyone shows up to class for the first week of organic chemistry and asks the simplest questions and writes the neatest notes. We've all been there and done that. But, at the end of the semester/quarter, only a few of us pop out with A's while the majority pass with a B/C. I am just trying to get a feel for how general surgery residency (ACGME) is in that manner.
Click to expand...

with the way things are (and the way things are going), i personally would not choose a school based on if it awards a DO or an MD. the DO bias is dying and only kept alive by a few *******s...and that's their problem. for every old-fashioned patient who won't see you because you are a DO, there's a patient who will only see you because you are more "holistic" and "like spiritual/groovy, man."

go to the school you feel like you will be the most successful at.
 
Anicetus said:
. I am just trying to get a feel for how general surgery residency (ACGME) is in that manner.
Click to expand...


I erased the rest of your post because this is the only part that matters, if this is your actual question.

If this is, then next time, make it much more clear in your title and your first post because this is very different than your original question.


And again, the answer is that MDs have much more access to ACGME gen surgery spots. Thats not a secret.

But, DOs have an actual monopoly on AOA gen surgery spots.

Again, Its not that competitive of a residency, and a lot of the reason why DOs go primary care has to do with self selection/choice.


Your "question" (which you seem to already answered for yourself, if Im not mistaken...?) is starting to come across as a subtle trolling.
 
Obviously there are plenty of D.O.s on this site who have matched surgery.

and the Program Directors will magically no longer care who they interview and all of their biases will dissolve upon the waving of the magic pen on the paper and they all lived happily ever after. The end.
Click to expand...

No, what I was saying was that the current AOA residencies are going to become ACGME. Those positions will still have D.O. bias even though M.D.s will be able to apply to them. Hence, once the merger occurs, D.O.s will match into lots of ACGME spots. 👍
 
Anicetus said:
I think it is an issue for people that are applying to both MD and DO and are waging the choice of taking another year to strengthen their app and go MD only if they are gun ho for a specialty like General Surgery. IM/EM/FM are not even a question, given the match lists, but like another poster said above, everyone thinks they will be one of the special snowflakes.
Click to expand...

Halflistic summed up the second part of that post nicely so I'll leave that alone. This part is just as trollish. Why is IM/EM/FM not even a question? The same argument you are trying to make holds true for those specialties.... So take that year and improve your application, but you better do something amazing or raise that MCAT significantly because the lower tier MD schools will pose similar barriers to you (if you're looking to get an "amazing" program in an "amazing" city)

Remember not everyone is after prestige. Everyone has different reasons for making their choices. I'm hoping the matches are combined so I can apply to any program because I'm a person that will take a spot at an AOA program instead of taking the risk for an ACGME spot even if I have amazing credentials. Matching the specialty is more important. It's on me to become the best surgeon I can be. If my program doesn't offer the same research opportunities as a more prestigious program, well I simply don't care if my goal is to be a general surgeon (one of the current major differences between AOA and ACGME).
Likewise if I somehow could match MGH, I wouldn't want to go there! I do not want to be in Boston nor NYC. Look at OrthoJoe's thread, he probably could have gotten an ACGME ortho spot but he chose a brand new AOA program because that is what he wanted.
 
Anicetus said:
I have been wanting to be a general surgeon. The general idea at least on SDN was that it was totally possible for DO's. Upon reading some threads like the one below, it seems as if DO's are literally just bound to be primary care (IM/FM/EM) and have to really stretch their boundaries to reach an ACGME general surgery residency.
Click to expand...
Bound to primary care? EM is primary care? I bet you haven't seen the awesome number of PM&R and Anesthesia people. Neurology and Psychiatry would also be very likely to match.
 
pathologyDO said:
Obviously there are plenty of D.O.s on this site who have matched surgery.



No, what I was saying was that the current AOA residencies are going to become ACGME. Those positions will still have D.O. bias even though M.D.s will be able to apply to them. Hence, once the merger occurs, D.O.s will match into lots of ACGME spots. 👍
Click to expand...
This doesn't logically follow... Unless you are coming at it from the point of view that since these programs have new ACGME accreditation they are ACGME programs so matching into AOA programs is paramount to matching ACGME. That's fine, if you want to consider it that way. However, my point was that DO matching into current ACGME (i.e. MD) residencies is not likely to increase just because of the merger.
 
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