Looks like General Surgery mostly a reach for DO's?

[DrEnderW]

OP, look up any match list for DO schools you would be interested in. Note the amount of students placing general surgery, as well as the surgical sub-specialties. The percentage of students going that route isn't that different from MD schools.

It may appear that not many kids place surgery when comparing to IM/peds/FM... but that's because the vast majority of med students at DO and MD schools don't want to be surgeons.

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[hallowmann]

At first I didn't want to respond to this clear troll, but no one seems to be correcting his clearly incorrect info.

... I personally just don't think it's a good idea to feed hopes to half a class when a small handful of people actually crack into ACGME residencies.

I say ACGME vs AOA because you also have to apply to work in a particular area. People may have to go to extremely rural places to do the specialty they want in a small local hospital for AOA, but if they want to move back and work in LA/boston/NYC as an actual general surgeon, it is very difficult no? Not all of us want to stay rural for life.

Man, if people want to go and work in those cities, all they have to do is work hard and go there. Has it ever occurred to you that some people might WANT to be in a rural area. And in any case, there are tons of DOs in big cities, and they definitely aren't just in FM.

Plus where are you getting your data? 55% of DOs match ACGME. Sure its not all surgery, but most med students (DO or MD) don't want surgery.

Also, not all AOA residencies are in small rural areas.

I think it is an issue for people that are applying to both MD and DO and are waging the choice of taking another year to strengthen their app and go MD only if they are gun ho for a specialty like General Surgery. IM/EM/FM are not even a question, given the match lists, but like another poster said above, everyone thinks they will be one of the special snowflakes.

It's like the first week of a class in undergrad. Everyone shows up to class for the first week of organic chemistry and asks the simplest questions and writes the neatest notes. We've all been there and done that. But, at the end of the semester/quarter, only a few of us pop out with A's while the majority pass with a B/C. I am just trying to get a feel for how general surgery residency (ACGME) is in that manner.

Its not a secret that surprise surprise its easier for MDs to match ACGME, but its also impossible for them to match AOA.

Also stop conflating IM/FM with EM or saying EM is really viewed as primary care, you are just showing your ignorance of the medical profession. EM is pretty competitive residency.

Bound to primary care? EM is primary care? I bet you haven't seen the awesome number of PM&R and Anesthesia people. Neurology and Psychiatry would also be very likely to match.

Bingo. In fact a LOT of PM&R programs prefer DOs for their musculoskeletal training.

...It may appear that not many kids place surgery when comparing to IM/peds/FM... but that's because the vast majority of med students at DO and MD schools don't want to be surgeons.

Naw, you foolin? I thought every pre-med wants to be a surgeon, because they're the only real doctors, and everyone else is just settling for another resident because they couldn't match surgery. I mean its not like most go into med school to be a big array of other physicians, there are just surgeons and wannabe surgeons. Plus everyone knows that the surgery lifestyle is the best, short hours, short procedures, little work, etc.

 

[Ost3oclast]

At first I didn't want to respond to this clear troll, but no one seems to be correcting his clearly incorrect info.



Man, if people want to go and work in those cities, all they have to do is work hard and go there. Has it ever occurred to you that some people might WANT to be in a rural area. And in any case, there are tons of DOs in big cities, and they definitely aren't just in FM.

Plus where are you getting your data? 55% of DOs match ACGME. Sure its not all surgery, but most med students (DO or MD) don't want surgery.

Also, not all AOA residencies are in small rural areas.



Its not a secret that surprise surprise its easier for MDs to match ACGME, but its also impossible for them to match AOA.

Also stop conflating IM/FM with EM or saying EM is really viewed as primary care, you are just showing your ignorance of the medical profession. EM is pretty competitive residency.



Bingo. In fact a LOT of PM&R programs prefer DOs for their musculoskeletal training.



Naw, you foolin? I thought every pre-med wants to be a surgeon, because they're the only real doctors, and everyone else is just settling for another resident because they couldn't match surgery. I mean its not like most go into med school to be a big array of other physicians, there are just surgeons and wannabe surgeons. Plus everyone knows that the surgery lifestyle is the best, short hours, short procedures, little work, etc.

I like you sir.

 

[StudyShy]

My general surgeon for my PEG tube is a DO.

 

[cliquesh]

I think the problem here is people equate "possible" with "probable". I'm not even suggesting that it is improbable. But it is significantly harder as evidenced by the match lists and stats. So many pre-meds still have the "I'm a special snowflake" mentality such that they just assume they will be the one to over achieve as opposed to the rest of their already overachieving class.

I don't know. Everyone I know that matched general surgery had a comlex around 530 to 550, and the ones that matched at university programs had 230's the usmle. It doesnt seem that improbable.

 

[Goro]

You really need to chat with people in the know and not a bunch of hyperventilating overaxious pre-meds.

I have been wanting to be a general surgeon. The general idea at least on SDN was that it was totally possible for DO's. Upon reading some threads like the one below, it seems as if DO's are literally just bound to be primary care (IM/FM/EM) and have to really stretch their boundaries to reach an ACGME general surgery residency.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=933492&highlight=DO+schools+general+surgery


Yes. At my school our matriculants specifically self-selct for primary care, and that's why they come here. We send about 5% of our graduating clases each year into general surgery, so, it's doable. At MarionCOM it will be the same thing. Specialists will go to IU, but those interested in PC will get into the COM. It's quite a symbiotic relationship.

Do most of the people that go to DO schools plan on wanting to go into primary care?

Nope. One of my worst students ever went into anaesthisology, another into psychiatry. My students are matching quite well, overall.

Or are a good number of them just matching to primary care because they realize when it is too late that they can't get into specialties?

 

[HalfListic]

Its a great model to ensure, statistically, that there are enough primary care and enough specialists produced in any given state or region.

 

[SpecterGT260]

I don't know. Everyone I know that matched general surgery had a comlex around 530 to 550, and the ones that matched at university programs had 230's the usmle. It doesnt seem that improbable.

. I'm not even suggesting that it is improbable.

It was like... right there in the thing you quoted. Don't be that guy

 

[Ost3oclast]

I think the problem here is people equate "possible" with "probable". I'm not even suggesting that it is improbable. But it is significantly harder as evidenced by the match lists and stats. So many pre-meds still have the "I'm a special snowflake" mentality such that they just assume they will be the one to over achieve as opposed to the rest of their already overachieving class.

I agree but I think you also have to compare the samples of student who attend DO and MD schools in terms of their top residency choice (the idea that most DO students prefer to go primary care). It would be interesting if incoming med students were polled on their intended medical specialty upon graduation, then ask the same question before and after boards, then compare to that to the specialty they actually matched.

This would give us a better idea of how much more difficult it is for DO students to match ANY surg (although it should be blatant that it IS more difficult than MD)

The problem here is we can't get an accurate picture of who wanted what and when they wanted it. It seems like the argument about school match lists....but of course, I'm just a lowly pre-med and don't know too much hah

 

[SpecterGT260]

I agree but I think you also have to compare the samples of student who attend DO and MD schools in terms of their top residency choice (the idea that most DO students prefer to go primary care). It would be interesting if incoming med students were polled on their intended medical specialty upon graduation, then ask the same question before and after boards, then compare to that to the specialty they actually matched.

This would give us a better idea of how much more difficult it is for DO students to match ANY surg (although it should be blatant that it IS more difficult than MD)

The problem here is we can't get an accurate picture of who wanted what and when they wanted it. It seems like the argument about school match lists....but of course, I'm just a lowly pre-med and don't know too much hah

I really don't think most DO want primary care..... at least not in a disproportionate amount to MD students. I you look at this document: http://data.aacom.org/media/DO_GME_match_2011.pdf (I think... I'm queuing up in a ranked game ATM so don't have time to scan through it again ) it would appear that DOs going into primary care has been declining (by %). This is occurring simultaneously with ACGME programs becoming less biased. basically this points to DO students being equally PCP-inclined as MD students which.... makes sense considering that the biggest difference between the groups is a few measly points of GPA and MCAT.

 

[Ost3oclast]

I really don't think most DO want primary care..... at least not in a disproportionate amount to MD students. I you look at this document: http://data.aacom.org/media/DO_GME_match_2011.pdf (I think... I'm queuing up in a ranked game ATM so don't have time to scan through it again ) it would appear that DOs going into primary care has been declining (by %). This is occurring simultaneously with ACGME programs becoming less biased. basically this points to DO students being equally PCP-inclined as MD students which.... makes sense considering that the biggest difference between the groups is a few measly points of GPA and MCAT.

Ahhhhhh...I can see that logic. I think basing HOW much more difficult it is for DO's to match gen surg is still speculation. Granted it is more difficult to some degree.

Looking at that chart it does show that there are 1.63 1st choice applicants applying for each gen surg seat.....not sure how that compares to MD competition or if it takes into account the ACGME match.

 

[HalfListic]

I really don't think most DO want primary care..... at least not in a disproportionate amount to MD students. I you look at this document: http://data.aacom.org/media/DO_GME_match_2011.pdf (I think... I'm queuing up in a ranked game ATM so don't have time to scan through it again ) it would appear that DOs going into primary care has been declining (by %). This is occurring simultaneously with ACGME programs becoming less biased. basically this points to DO students being equally PCP-inclined as MD students which.... makes sense considering that the biggest difference between the groups is a few measly points of GPA and MCAT.

not so fast there...

can you really attribute the (slightly) declining % of DOs going PC to the nebulous idea of ACGME programs becoming less biased? Im sure there are more variables at hand, not the least of them being the current healthcare climate, the general state of the economy, increasing tuition/debt and decreasing reimbursement, etc.

I think its not difficult to conclude that there are more DOs choosing PC when their entire 4 years of medical education is taught to that end. DO schools make a much harder push for PC...I'd have to think that has some sort of influence on the masses.

 

[Anicetus]

not so fast there...

can you really attribute the (slightly) declining % of DOs going PC to the nebulous idea of ACGME programs becoming less biased? Im sure there are more variables at hand, not the least of them being the current healthcare climate, the general state of the economy, increasing tuition/debt and decreasing reimbursement, etc.

I think its not difficult to conclude that there are more DOs choosing PC when their entire 4 years of medical education is taught to that end. DO schools make a much harder push for PC...I'd have to think that has some sort of influence on the masses.

Entire four years? Then shouldn't they eliminate surgery all around in their curriculum?

 

[HalfListic]

Entire four years? Then shouldn't they eliminate surgery all around in their curriculum?

Actually, no.

The idea is that a generalist should know a little about everything. Every rotation that a future PCP goes on in an enhancement to their future practice.

**you are learning principles during your 3rd and 4th year, not really any technical training, which will come during residency

 

[Anicetus]

Actually, no.

The idea is that a generalist should know a little about everything. Every rotation that a future PCP goes on in an enhancement to their future practice.

So would allopathic education be different in this regard? Most people here say that the curriculum is identical for MD and DO (except for OMM), so would it be safe to assume that even allopathic is pushing towards PC too?

 

[HalfListic]

So would allopathic education be different in this regard? Most people here say that the curriculum is identical for MD and DO (except for OMM), so would it be safe to assume that even allopathic is pushing towards PC too?

Its safest to assume that everyone is lying online and do your own homework, especially when comparing schools, or MD vs DO.

*and its not curriculum that differs, per se, its the mission statement and context and push behind the schools curriculum.

But, if you want my take on it, yes...allo does it differently in general. There are MD schools that are more PC focused than others, while others are pretty heavy on specializing. While DO schools almost across the boards have a goal, a mission statement, to train PCPs. Many of them say that they will support you if you specialize, but they will still train you to be the best generalist you can be, first. And will also try to show you why the PC specialties are enticing. That is more common in DO schools...and its a good thing, IMO, even if you end up specializing.

 

[SpecterGT260]

not so fast there...

can you really attribute the (slightly) declining % of DOs going PC to the nebulous idea of ACGME programs becoming less biased? Im sure there are more variables at hand, not the least of them being the current healthcare climate, the general state of the economy, increasing tuition/debt and decreasing reimbursement, etc.

I think its not difficult to conclude that there are more DOs choosing PC when their entire 4 years of medical education is taught to that end. DO schools make a much harder push for PC...I'd have to think that has some sort of influence on the masses.

can you really say it isnt? On what basis do you (or anybody) say that more DO students want primary care than MD students do? This is the same as that half-listic crap that gets spread by the AOA. It is a convenient way to rationalize the results but I know several DO students and nearly was one myself. I see no differences in terms of charitability, compassion, caring, whatever between the groups. I know several people who went DO to get into ortho

 

[HalfListic]

can you really say it isnt? On what basis do you (or anybody) say that more DO students want primary care than MD students do? This is the same as that half-listic crap that gets spread by the AOA. It is a convenient way to rationalize the results but I know several DO students and nearly was one myself. I see no differences in terms of charitability, compassion, caring, whatever between the groups. I know several people who went DO to get into ortho

Well, thats my point, now isnt it. Neither of us can say exactly why...which is exactly why I commented. Im pointing out that you are oversimplifying it, and to an error.

I think you may have mis-read/understood my comment. I agree with everything you say here.

There is no differences in terms of charitability, compassion, caring, whatever between the groups in my experience either.

What I didn't agree with was your comment that DOs are specializing more strictly because there was less ACGME bias. I wish this were the case, but, I see all the other reasons I've listed above that also contribute to why DOs specialize.

I didnt paint anyone in a special light there either by the way...or maybe you can point out something you dont agree with specifically.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Well, thats my point, now isnt it. Neither of us can say exactly why...which is exactly why I commented. Im pointing out that you are oversimplifying it, and to an error.

I think you may have mis-read/understood my comment. I agree with everything you say here.

There is no differences in terms of charitability, compassion, caring, whatever between the groups in my experience either.

What I didn't agree with was your comment that DOs are specializing more strictly because there was less ACGME bias. I wish this were the case, but, I see all the other reasons I've listed above that also contribute to why DOs specialize.

I didnt paint anyone in a special light there either by the way...or maybe you can point out something you dont agree with specifically.

I wasnt stating that as fact. I was stating it as an equally valid counterpoint to the idea that DO students simply want primary care more. Other than the banners in some DO schools' websites, there is actually no evidence that DOs just like it more. None.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using SDN Mobile

 

[Pons Asinorum]

Man, I've got to spend more time in the DO forums. You guys mix it up in here!

 

[SurgeDO]

Well, thats my point, now isnt it. Neither of us can say exactly why...which is exactly why I commented. Im pointing out that you are oversimplifying it, and to an error.

I think you may have mis-read/understood my comment. I agree with everything you say here.

There is no differences in terms of charitability, compassion, caring, whatever between the groups in my experience either.

What I didn't agree with was your comment that DOs are specializing more strictly because there was less ACGME bias. I wish this were the case, but, I see all the other reasons I've listed above that also contribute to why DOs specialize.

I didnt paint anyone in a special light there either by the way...or maybe you can point out something you dont agree with specifically.

I'm new to these forums, and I keep hearing about this ACGME bias against DOs. Would somebody provide me with an explanation on how this idea was reached? (Serious question)

 

[SpecterGT260]

I'm new to these forums, and I keep hearing about this ACGME bias against DOs. Would somebody provide me with an explanation on how this idea was reached? (Serious question)

Google nrmp match stats. Then look at the PD survey.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using SDN Mobile

 

[SLC]

I wasnt stating that as fact. I was stating it as an equally valid counterpoint to the idea that DO students simply want primary care more. Other than the banners in some DO schools' websites, there is actually no evidence that DOs just like it more. None.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using SDN Mobile

It's true that it's probably an equally valid counterpoint, I can give an interesting perspective here though, it's a limited one but I think it's valuable:

Last year we at school we decided to make a time-capsule video of our class. As part of the video we asked everyone to list their desired future field of practice.

Any guesses on what the overwhelming majority listed?

Family Med.

We probably had 4-5 budding surgeons, a handful of EM, and a couple of other non-Prim. Care folks in fields like Derm and Path but the large majority wanted either FM, IM, OB, or Psych. Whith FM being the larges single group by a decent margin.

I don't think this trend would be all that dissimilar at DO schools nationwide.

A year later and the handful of classmates that have relocated to our rotations base with me still want overwhelmingly primary care fields of practice. Only 1 in 10 of us even wants surgery and the other two who Might not call Primary Care bound are eyeing Emergency Med and Neurology.

 

[SpecterGT260]

It's true that it's probably an equally valid counterpoint, I can give an interesting perspective here though, it's a limited one but I think it's valuable:

Last year we at school we decided to make a time-capsule video of our class. As part of the video we asked everyone to list their desired future field of practice.

Any guesses on what the overwhelming majority listed?

Family Med.

We probably had 4-5 budding surgeons, a handful of EM, and a couple of other non-Prim. Care folks in fields like Derm and Path but the large majority wanted either FM, IM, OB, or Psych. Whith FM being the larges single group by a decent margin.

I don't think this trend would be all that dissimilar at DO schools nationwide.

A year later and the handful of classmates that have relocated to our rotations base with me still want overwhelmingly primary care fields of practice. Only 1 in 10 of us even wants surgery and the other two who Might not call Primary Care bound are eyeing Emergency Med and Neurology.

What are you considering primary care? In my class most do not want surgery. There is a huge EM group, huge Peds group, tons of IM and plenty of FM.

 

[SLC]

What are you considering primary care? In my class most do not want surgery. There is a huge EM group, huge Peds group, tons of IM and plenty of FM.

My school classifies FM, Peds, ObGyn, IM, and Psych as primary care.

Family med interest group is by far the largest, followed by the IM interest group, Peds club, and Women's Health Interest group.

We had a fairly healthy Emergency Med group too, perhaps 10-15 members.

But as far as that list that we put together for the video, Family Med might have been 40-50% of people's response, which is pretty much half the class. I'd say you probably have 80-85% of the class that listed primary care fields.

 

[as1212559]

Man, I've got to spend more time in the DO forums. You guys mix it up in here!

There are so many amendments. In the Constitution of the United Staaaates.

mirin avi


And yeah man, you can't miss out on some of the epic slapfights in osteo/pre-osteo. Brilliant stuff.

 

[SurgeDO]

Google nrmp match stats. Then look at the PD survey.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using SDN Mobile

This "bias" seems to be highly exaggerated on SDN. It appears board scores, grades, and personal statement are much more important to matching than the two letters after your name.

Thanks for the resource!

 

[DrEnderW]

This "bias" seems to be highly exaggerated on SDN.

Everything is highly exaggerated on SDN lol.

 

[HalfListic]

This "bias" seems to be highly exaggerated on SDN. It appears board scores, grades, and personal statement are much more important to matching than the two letters after your name.

Thanks for the resource!

Everything is highly exaggerated on SDN lol.

Its true, SDN is sort of the worst when it comes to distorting reality.

That being said, bias does exist in certain ACGME residency programs. Obviously, there is pretty heavy bias against MDs in AOA residencies as well.


But, the big point is that, for nearly every specialty, you can get there as an MD or DO. I think most people care more about that, then landing a top 5 residency program.

 

[SpecterGT260]

This "bias" seems to be highly exaggerated on SDN. It appears board scores, grades, and personal statement are much more important to matching than the two letters after your name.

Thanks for the resource!

There are several first hand accounts on here of DO students being told point blank they will not be ranked due to their title . I think what is lacking is an understanding of the process.

 

[SurgeDO]

There are several first hand accounts on here of DO students being told point blank they will not be ranked due to their title . I think what is lacking is an understanding of the process.

Data is more convincing to me than anecdotes over the Internet.

 

[hallowmann]

Data is more convincing to me than anecdotes over the Internet.

Yeah, but the survey does demonstrate a bias, right? Sure board scores, LORs, rank, etc are most important, but there are some specialties where 65% of residency PDs say they will not even rank DOs. If you aren't ranked, you definitely can't match. Sure, that leaves 35% of programs in those specialties that would rank DOs, but that's a smaller pool to choose from.

Don't get me wrong, the right DO could match into any type of residency, but let's just say with the bias PDs demonstrate in that report I'm just glad I have zero interest in things like ACGME derm or plastics.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Data is more convincing to me than anecdotes over the Internet.

Apparently not... because the ACGME PD survey lists "Graduation from US Allopathic school" rather highly for nearly every specialty surveyed. Yes, step1 and a few other things rank more highly, but you seem to suggest that simply having a step1 score suddenly negates the impact here on the bias. It doesn't. Coupled with first hand accounts on the matter... I'd say you're just plugging your ears and singing to yourself until all the bad thoughts go away. IMO a better plan is to acknowledge where the hurdles lay and figure out how to overcome them rather than simply pretend they don't exist. For those who ask about surgery, the answer is "yes, there is bias and you need to be on your game in order to have a solid shot at matching".

"On game" will include things like solid step scores obviously, but I would suspect an audition rotation would help quite a bit more. The current averages for surgery for MD are ~230, which isn't outrageously high. If you think, in the face of both personal stories and the PDs themselves listing it on an NRMP sponsored survey, that you can just walk into a surgery program with stats equal to those of your MD counterparts you are fooling yourself.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Yeah, but the survey does demonstrate a bias, right? Sure board scores, LORs, rank, etc are most important, but there are some specialties where 65% of residency PDs say they will not even rank DOs. If you aren't ranked, you definitely can't match. Sure, that leaves 35% of programs in those specialties that would rank DOs, but that's a smaller pool to choose from.

Don't get me wrong, the right DO could match into any type of residency, but let's just say with the bias PDs demonstrate in that report I'm just glad I have zero interest in things like ACGME derm or plastics.

Yes, it does. It says pretty point blank "we prefer MD degrees". . Some people who either can't or refuse to read carefully or have no idea how to interpret this data take this statement to mean that DOs have the door shut on them, and then point at a single exception and go "A-HA!". That isn't what is being said at all. Matching is a highly subjective process. If the PD likes you, he can rank you even if you got a 190 on your boards. But all else being equal they publish data saying that DOs will need more impressive stats to various degrees to match ACGME as compared to MDs.

 

[SLC]

Yes, it does. It says pretty point blank "we prefer MD degrees". . Some people who either can't or refuse to read carefully or have no idea how to interpret this data take this statement to mean that DOs have the door shut on them, and then point at a single exception and go "A-HA!". That isn't what is being said at all. Matching is a highly subjective process. If the PD likes you, he can rank you even if you got a 190 on your boards. But all else being equal they publish data saying that DOs will need more impressive stats to various degrees to match ACGME as compared to MDs.

Correct,

And as far as I'm concerned there isn't really anything wrong with this in the current GME environment. Right now the ACGME exists first and foremost to provide GME for graduates of LCME accredited medical schools. The AOA has programs designed to provide for COCA accredited school graduates.

As such, it's not wrong for an ACGME PD to desire outstanding credentials, even above his/her average, for DO students who wish to match to his/her program since taking a DO into the program is not technically part of the purpose of the ACGME residency system.

Now such a bias will be immoral if and when the proposed GME merger occurs since at that point the ACGME will also be the GME body for US DO graduates, they'll need to have our interests in mind at that point IMO. That doesn't mean bias won't continue to happen, but it won't be appropriate.

 

[Ost3oclast]

correct,

and as far as i'm concerned there isn't really anything wrong with this in the current gme environment. Right now the acgme exists first and foremost to provide gme for graduates of lcme accredited medical schools. The aoa has programs designed to provide for coca accredited school graduates.

As such, it's not wrong for an acgme pd to desire outstanding credentials, even above his/her average, for do students who wish to match to his/her program since taking a do into the program is not technically part of the purpose of the acgme residency system.

Now such a bias will be immoral if and when the proposed gme merger occurs since at that point the acgme will also be the gme body for us do graduates, they'll need to have our interests in mind at that point imo. That doesn't mean bias won't continue to happen, but it won't be appropriate.

+1

 

[SpecterGT260]

Correct,

And as far as I'm concerned there isn't really anything wrong with this in the current GME environment. Right now the ACGME exists first and foremost to provide GME for graduates of LCME accredited medical schools. The AOA has programs designed to provide for COCA accredited school graduates.

As such, it's not wrong for an ACGME PD to desire outstanding credentials, even above his/her average, for DO students who wish to match to his/her program since taking a DO into the program is not technically part of the purpose of the ACGME residency system.

Now such a bias will be immoral if and when the proposed GME merger occurs since at that point the ACGME will also be the GME body for US DO graduates, they'll need to have our interests in mind at that point IMO. That doesn't mean bias won't continue to happen, but it won't be appropriate.

That's..... fair. I think the argument would be stronger if medical school accreditation was unified, but.. still, it's fair.

 

[HalfListic]

Correct,

And as far as I'm concerned there isn't really anything wrong with this in the current GME environment. Right now the ACGME exists first and foremost to provide GME for graduates of LCME accredited medical schools. The AOA has programs designed to provide for COCA accredited school graduates.

As such, it's not wrong for an ACGME PD to desire outstanding credentials, even above his/her average, for DO students who wish to match to his/her program since taking a DO into the program is not technically part of the purpose of the ACGME residency system.

Now such a bias will be immoral if and when the proposed GME merger occurs since at that point the ACGME will also be the GME body for US DO graduates, they'll need to have our interests in mind at that point IMO. That doesn't mean bias won't continue to happen, but it won't be appropriate.

That's..... fair. I think say the argument would be stronger if medical school accreditation was unified, but.. still, it's fair.

 

[DrEnderW]

Specter, I think you're spot on in your last few posts. I'm one who doesn't always love your delivery, but in this case you are definitely right

Now, I wish all pre-med students on SDN had to read this page so we could merge literally hundreds of threads.

I think a lot of DO students would complain they can't match into competitive specialties... but are they scoring top percentile on their boards and authoring/presenting a ton of related research? If you subtract their degree... are they truly equal in all other facets? Why ignore AOA residencies in surg, for example? There's a lot more self-selection in this process than people are willing to admit.

 

[Pons Asinorum]

Specter, I think you're spot on in your last few posts. I'm one who doesn't always love your delivery, but in this case you are definitely right

Now, I wish all pre-med students on SDN had to read this page so we could merge literally hundreds of threads.

I think a lot of DO students would complain they can't match into competitive specialties... but are they scoring top percentile on their boards and authoring/presenting a ton of related research? If you subtract their degree... are they truly equal in all other facets? Why ignore AOA residencies in surg, for example? There's a lot more self-selection in this process than people are willing to admit.

Sigh. So true.

 

[DrZed]

Late to the discussion, but wouldn't the timing between the DO and MD match be an issue. If I remember right, the DO match happens first. If you apply to the DO one and match, you're expected to go there first. Therefore if DO's want to apply to the ACGME residencies, they had to be very confident in their stats before they would even apply since going for an ACGME residency = can't apply to the AOA ones and if you don't match, it's scramble time.

 

[DrEnderW]

Late to the discussion, but wouldn't the timing between the DO and MD match be an issue. If I remember right, the DO match happens first. If you apply to the DO one and match, you're expected to go there first. Therefore if DO's want to apply to the ACGME residencies, they had to be very confident in their stats before they would even apply since going for an ACGME residency = can't apply to the AOA ones and if you don't match, it's scramble time.

Right.

The take home message is that a DO can definitely become a general surgeon through an AOA residency with a moderately competitive app.

This thread really should be about ACGME gen surg residencies for DO students. In that case, you would have to skip the AOA match and be confident enough in your numbers and experiences to match. People do this every year and it is very much possible, however, less secure than the AOA route.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Right.

The take home message is that a DO can definitely become a general surgeon through an AOA residency with a moderately competitive app.

This thread really should be about ACGME gen surg residencies for DO students. In that case, you would have to skip the AOA match and be confident enough in your numbers and experiences to match. People do this every year and it is very much possible, however, less secure than the AOA route.

Assuming that there are only 103 other DO students wanting to match AOA surg.....

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[NontradCA]

Assuming that there are only 103 other DO students wanting to match AOA surg.....

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No more than that want surgery. It's because surgeons are generally type A personalities and DO students typically don't fall into this category.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Even with the picture I cant tell if you believe that or not

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[NontradCA]

Even with the picture I cant tell if you believe that or not

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Come at me then Breh.

 

[SLC]

Assuming that there are only 103 other DO students wanting to match AOA surg.....

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I'm sure it's more than 103, but I don't think it's a significant amount compared to the DO student body in general. I'd wager the ratio of Surgery-interest:Student Body in MD schools is higher than that in DO schools.

There's something about Osteopathic Medical Education that attracts Primary Care Oriented people, I already gave you my example of the preferences of my class.

I just got the matchlist for the SOMA 2013 class too, 7 GSurg matches reporting so far, 3 of them AOA, 2 ACGME, and 2 military. That's in a class of ~100

 

[as1212559]

When we take anecdotal information from every DO school is it still an anecdote?

 

[SpecterGT260]

When we take anecdotal information from every DO school is it still an anecdote?

Depends if it agrees with them or not

 

[DrEnderW]

Assuming that there are only 103 other DO students wanting to match AOA surg.....

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Yeah I get there are less AOA general surgery spots than ACGME general surgery spots. No one is arguing that point. I can't find the link quickly at the moment (someone help me out), but the number of applicants applying versus number of applicants accepted is a pretty nice percentage. There are less spots but there are less people applying for them.

It's not like there's some awful match rate for DOs going AOA gen surg compared to MDs going ACGME gen surg is the point.

Edit: Found the data. For 2011, there were 169 applicants for 104 spots. Just like any surgery match, there are a lot of people reaching. With competitive numbers, the match for AOA general surgery is not bad at all.