0 Shadowing Hours

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My question is: Should I delay my application until next year and use this year to obtain shadowing hours? Or is shadowing a soft requirement as long as you have clinical experience?

Please advice

UPDATE as of 12/24/21: This is for anyone who ends up reading this later on. I have received interviews and acceptances (MD and DO) at a good amount of schools. I believe that the virtual shadowing I attained may have accounted for something, and my other activities were consistent with the mission statements of most schools I applied to. In some secondaries, I had the chance to explain how Covid impacted me and my chances for shadowing. MD schools showed me more love in interviews than DO schools (though I didn't have a physician LOR for DO schools so that may be part of the reason). In the interviews I've had so far, only one has really mentioned my shadowing in passing. In all, as stated in some comments below, schools may have been more forgiving because of the pandemic, so I would honestly just get shadowing hours Post Covid.

Good luck to you all!
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Just email some physicians now/as the summer progresses. You'll only be submitting by late August (assuming you don't presend without mcat) so you have a few months. You only need like 30-50 hours of shadowing.
 
joe32 said:
Just email some physicians now/as the summer progresses. You'll only be submitting by late August (assuming you don't presend without mcat) so you have a few months. You only need like 30-50 hours of shadowing.
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Yeah, currently trying to get hours right now. You don't think late August would be too late in the application cycle?
 
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C2Moof said:
Hey everyone, I'll summarize the above subject really quickly. Prior to Covid, I thought that Clinical experience and Shadowing were interchangeable. By the time I found out that they were not, no hospital or physicians (rightfully so) were willing to have people in to shadow. My original plan was to apply to medical school this cycle however I'm not so sure right now. I am satisfied with everything else that would go on my application and plan to take the MCAT at the end of June.

My question is: Should I delay my application until next year and use this year to obtain shadowing hours? Or is shadowing a soft requirement as long as you have clinical experience?

Please advice
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No shadowing = no acceptance. You need to know what a doctor's day is like and how different doctors approach the practice of Medicine.

See if you can get a scribing job. It's patient contact experience and shadowing.
 
Shadowing is certainly not a soft requirement. You have to know what you are going to be doing for the next 30+ years. And virtual,shadowing won’t substitute. Things are opening up rather quickly. Start looking at physicians you know or parents of friends. You only need about 50 hours total and some should be with a primary care doc. If you put your mind to it 50 hours isn’t hard to get.
 
candbgirl said:
Shadowing is certainly not a soft requirement. You have to know what you are going to be doing for the next 30+ years. And virtual,shadowing won’t substitute. Things are opening up rather quickly. Start looking at physicians you know or parents of friends. You only need about 50 hours total and some should be with a primary care doc. If you put your mind to it 50 hours isn’t hard to get.
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Agree 100% with ^^^^ Start with all the doctors you and your family consulted over the years.
 
@Goro @ other grown ups

what if you're basically living in the middle of a hospital or practice but it's not shadowing, it's work?
 
Have you scribed or held other clinical employment? If you have, I don’t think a lack of other shadowing will necessarily be lethal. Also remember you can project hours.
 
stinkycheeseperson said:
@Goro @ other grown ups

what if you're basically living in the middle of a hospital or practice but it's not shadowing, it's work?
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Ask the docs if you can take a half day off here or there and simply shadow a couple of them. If they are uncomfortable with that see if they have a couple of friends they’d put you in touch with. They know you need shadowing. Just ask.
 
DNAJB6 said:
Have you scribed or held other clinical employment? If you have, I don’t think a lack of other shadowing will necessarily be lethal. Also remember you can project hours.
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Other clinical employment where the position is "embedded" for lack of better term.
 
candbgirl said:
Ask the docs if you can take a half day off here or there and simply shadow a couple of them. If they are uncomfortable with that see if they have a couple of friends they’d put you in touch with. They know you need shadowing. Just ask.
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IDK how to multi-quote

it's a vague possibility for shadowing but tbqh i have way too much work to take off lol
 
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somanysnax said:
None of the schools I’ve looked at on MSAR show 100% for Physician shadowing / Clinical observation. Unless it’s explicitly required, clearly you can get in without shadowing.
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They likely have scribing, or got the chance to shadow during clinical activities and described it.
 
Goro said:
Elaborate, please
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the job in question is smack-dab in the middle in a working practice and i basically never leave haha

eta: so like can you talk about ~~observating~~ even if it's not a separate specific thingy?
 
stinkycheeseperson said:
the job in question is smack-dab in the middle in a working practice and i basically never leave haha

eta: so like can you talk about ~~observating~~ even if it's not a separate specific thingy?
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do you actually observe doctors interacting with their patients for a prolonged period of time? This is different from Simply seeing how a doctor's office works
 
C2Moof said:
Alright, thanks everyone. I'll continue trying to look for more opportunities to shadow.
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Do you scribe? Scribing was also good clinical hours? Or work as a medical assistant?
I asked the people I scribed with if I could shadow them as well. I know with COVID it is a little tricky but there are some virtual shadowing opportunities as well
 
teddy_tu said:
Do you scribe? Scribing was also good clinical hours? Or work as a medical assistant?
I asked the people I scribed with if I could shadow them as well. I know with COVID it is a little tricky but there are some virtual shadowing opportunities as well
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Things are opening up now. OP should be able to,shadow if he wants to shadow, in person. Virtual Shadowing isn’t a good idea.
 
candbgirl said:
Shadowing is certainly not a soft requirement. You have to know what you are going to be doing for the next 30+ years. And virtual,shadowing won’t substitute. Things are opening up rather quickly. Start looking at physicians you know or parents of friends. You only need about 50 hours total and some should be with a primary care doc. If you put your mind to it 50 hours isn’t hard to get.
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While its definitely important to get some shadowing hours its not necessarily true that virtual shadowing won't count. I've actually contacted a number of schools about this and the general response was the virtual shadowing hours would count this cycle. It's important to contact specific programs about their requirements though.
 
Unwilling_Mesophile said:
While its definitely important to get some shadowing hours its not necessarily true that virtual shadowing won't count. I've actually contacted a number of schools about this and the general response was the virtual shadowing hours would count this cycle. It's important to contact specific programs about their requirements though.
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Well according to amazing , highly qualified and well known ADCOMS on SDN, that doesn’t seem to be the entire case. I can’t even imagine how you’d get a true shadowing experience virtually. It Certainly wouldn’t be comprehensive. It might have a glimpse of a patient interaction. But what else does it have?
Something you and other proud 0 shadowing applicants should realize is that there will be thousands of applicants that will have some in person shadowing. To me, that indicates that they at least thought about it and figured out how to get some in person shadowing before a pandemic , during a pandemic or as the pandemic loosens its grip on us. I still think premeds should try to get in person shadowing. Even if it’s after you submit your application. It might be a good topic for an update(if schools accept them) and it might show a school you are still out there working on improving your application.
 
C2Moof said:
My question is: Should I delay my application until next year and use this year to obtain shadowing hours? Or is shadowing a soft requirement as long as you have clinical experience?

Please advice
Click to expand...
Shadowing is a hard requirement, regardless of what anyone else tells you. Don’t believe them. On many of my exit interviews I was told that’s why I didn’t get an offer because I only had 20hrs. Literally work your butt off and take 2x 12hr shifts of shadowing a doctor over the weekend to check the box. Even better if you can do 4x 12hr shifts. Over the next 2weeks. It’s worth it to call into work, or postpone an exam and get them in, then to delay your entire career plans by 1 year.
 
somanysnax said:
None of the schools I’ve looked at on MSAR show 100% for Physician shadowing / Clinical observation. Unless it’s explicitly required, clearly you can get in without shadowing.
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An adcom at any school will disagree. With 95% of applicants applying with shadowing, your app will quickly be thrown to the side at any decent school.
 
candbgirl said:
Well according to amazing , highly qualified and well known ADCOMS on SDN, that doesn’t seem to be the entire case. I can’t even imagine how you’d get a true shadowing experience virtually. It Certainly wouldn’t be comprehensive. It might have a glimpse of a patient interaction. But what else does it have?
Something you and other proud 0 shadowing applicants should realize is that there will be thousands of applicants that will have some in person shadowing. To me, that indicates that they at least thought about it and figured out how to get some in person shadowing before a pandemic , during a pandemic or as the pandemic loosens its grip on us. I still think premeds should try to get in person shadowing. Even if it’s after you submit your application. It might be a good topic for an update(if schools accept them) and it might show a school you are still out there working on improving your application.
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When did I say I had zero shadowing...? I have thousands of hours of clinical experience both before and during the pandemic. I'm literally just staying what I was told by the schools I emailed because I wanted to know how it would look to keep busy with it during the pandemic when things where more closed down. People on here get so damn butt hurt over everything.
 
Unwilling_Mesophile said:
When did I say I had zero shadowing...? I have thousands of hours of clinical experience both before and during the pandemic. I'm literally just staying what I was told by the schools I emailed because I wanted to know how it would look to keep busy with it during the pandemic when things where more closed down. People on here get so damn butt hurt over everything.
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Medical students are doing virtual clinical rotations right now and being forced to apply to residency with that on their app... I think virtual shadowing will be ok.
 
Unwilling_Mesophile said:
When did I say I had zero shadowing...? I have thousands of hours of clinical experience both before and during the pandemic. I'm literally just staying what I was told by the schools I emailed because I wanted to know how it would look to keep busy with it during the pandemic when things where more closed down. People on here get so damn butt hurt over everything.
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Where did I specifically talk about you? I was talking in generalities. I did say “ you and other 0 shadowing “ applicants and I’m sorry if I triggered you. That wasn’t my intent. My intent was to help other applicants with the same question because you have already figured it out. Sorry I offended you. Good luck as you move along.
 
Goro said:
do you actually observe doctors interacting with their patients for a prolonged period of time? This is different from Simply seeing how a doctor's office works
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yes

i might have like 12 hours otherwise but i do not have spare time to go glom
 
candbgirl said:
Where did I specifically talk about you? I was talking in generalities. I did say “ you and other 0 shadowing “ applicants and I’m sorry if I triggered you. That wasn’t my intent. My intent was to help other applicants with the same question because you have already figured it out. Sorry I offended you. Good luck as you move along
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"you and other 0 shadowing" is a direct statement. It's not triggering, I just wish people on this site wouldn't always just assume the worst about each other. Obviously our intention is to try to help out OP and others with similar questions and the benefit of a massive online forum is that lots of people can share their experiences. It's great to hear from the adcoms on here who can give harsh criticism when needed because this is a long, difficult, and expensive process and people should have reasonable expectations. At the same time, as another applicant I am also able to share my experience because I've spoken to schools that might not have an active voice on here and am going through the process myself. Thats all I was trying to do. Thank you for the well wishes and best to you as well.
 
Going against what seems to be the consensus here, but I don't think shadowing is necessary in the right set of circumstances. I think you have to prove that you understand (as much as a pre-med can) what the day-to-day life of a physician looks like, but I don't think that has to come from shadowing. I had zero shadowing hours, but I had years of work experience as both a scribe and MA. Not to mention my "pre-medicine" career.

In my mind, shadowing is just a way to show that pursuing a career in medicine isn't a flippant decision. In my case, I think giving up my previous career, going back to school, and taking lower-paying positions in the medical field made it very clear that I had carefully considered the path to becoming a physician (something I weighed heavily before making any of those moves). FWIW, I had multiple interviews and acceptances. But if I was fresh out of undergrad with a marketing degree and 100 clinical hours collected over the past 6 months? It probably would have gone a very different way.
 
candbgirl said:
Well according to amazing , highly qualified and well known ADCOMS on SDN, that doesn’t seem to be the entire case. I can’t even imagine how you’d get a true shadowing experience virtually. It Certainly wouldn’t be comprehensive. It might have a glimpse of a patient interaction. But what else does it have?
Something you and other proud 0 shadowing applicants should realize is that there will be thousands of applicants that will have some in person shadowing. To me, that indicates that they at least thought about it and figured out how to get some in person shadowing before a pandemic , during a pandemic or as the pandemic loosens its grip on us. I still think premeds should try to get in person shadowing. Even if it’s after you submit your application. It might be a good topic for an update(if schools accept them) and it might show a school you are still out there working on improving your application.
Click to expand...
Is it possible that virtual shadowing got some points earlier in the pandemic? Or the acceptances were at one of the few schools to consider applicants without shadowing? It makes sense that it wouldn’t work at most schools this cycle when the pandemic is functionally almost over, if not over, in the USA.
 
LondonVibes said:
Is it possible that virtual shadowing got some points earlier in the pandemic? Or the acceptances were at one of the few schools to consider applicants without shadowing? It makes sense that it wouldn’t work at most schools this cycle when the pandemic is functionally almost over, if not over, in the USA.
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Maybe. Who really knows what happens behind closed doors. And always remember, where there is a will there is a way. Might not be easy to find but what is. Even without a pandemic people sometimes have a hard time finding shadowing.
 
From what I've seen shadowing is not a hard requirement. Clinical exposure is a hard requirement. Shadowing is a form of clinical exposure, but I've talk to admissions committee members who feel it's the weakest form of clinical exposure because you, the applicants, is passive and you are the only one benefitting from the experience.

So the question is really what is the quality of OPs clinical exposure? If OP is a scribe or has worked in medical settings, interacting with patients and physicians, that's better than shadowing. If OP has minimal clinical exposure, then I'd say OP should get shadowing experience as fast as possible while beefing up that experience in other ways also. But I don't think postponing application is automatically necessary exclusively due to lack of shadowing.
 
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I agree with the post above. I worked as an RN prior to applying. 0 physician shadowing hours and had multiple acceptances to choose from. Medical school admissions committees are bright enough to know that someone who is working with physicians directly as participating members of patient care are getting a more in-depth look at physician’s working than the kid in the polo standing nervously in the background.

Should absolutely have clinical experience or exposure of some kind, though. How on earth do people know they actually want to be a doctor otherwise?!
 
AW0320 said:
Going against what seems to be the consensus here, but I don't think shadowing is necessary in the right set of circumstances. I think you have to prove that you understand (as much as a pre-med can) what the day-to-day life of a physician looks like, but I don't think that has to come from shadowing. I had zero shadowing hours, but I had years of work experience as both a scribe and MA. Not to mention my "pre-medicine" career.

In my mind, shadowing is just a way to show that pursuing a career in medicine isn't a flippant decision. In my case, I think giving up my previous career, going back to school, and taking lower-paying positions in the medical field made it very clear that I had carefully considered the path to becoming a physician (something I weighed heavily before making any of those moves). FWIW, I had multiple interviews and acceptances. But if I was fresh out of undergrad with a marketing degree and 100 clinical hours collected over the past 6 months? It probably would have gone a very different way.
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Scribing is glorified shadowing. It's employment and clinical exposure as well. Triple threat!

As mentioned earlier, virtual shadowing will be accepted by some schools, but not all.

If you do not have either shadowing or scribing, your app will be DOA.
 
As long you have other strong clinical experiences I don't think you need set number of shadowing hours. Some adcoms seems to throw lot of numbers around and applicants should use them as general guidelines not as hard requirements.
 
I think what you're all seeing here is that different medical schools have different criteria. Some may ding you without shadowing or scribing. They really want to see that experience. Others are more flexible.

I happened to speak with a med school admissions dean today and I mentioned this exchange. She completely agreed that if one has other forms of clinical exposure that give you insight into what being a doctor is like, you don't need shadowing/scribing. At the same time, highly knowledgeable, experienced, (and I might add generous) adcom members feel that it is vital.

From my perspective, I see clients getting in without it, but they then have other forms of meaningful clinical exposure including patient interaction and observation of clinicians. Will some adcom perhaps look down on applicants without shadowing/scribing? It sure seems like that. Can you get in without it, yes.
 
I recently made a post about virtual shadowing (link here). In short, there are some schools that have explicitly stated that virtual shadowing is accepted at their respective institutions: Northwestern, University of Washington, University of South Carolina, and UIC, probably among others.

Even before the pandemic, did applicants get in without in-person shadowing? Yes. Are these applicants common? No. In prior cycles, successful applicants who did not have shadowing almost always had significant clinical exposure that adequately informed their decision to pursue medicine. These types of clinical experiences include nursing, scribing, being a PA, etc. where the applicant works closely with physicians. Applying without shadowing is not optimal except in these special cases.

What is clear from these discussions is that there is a diversity of opinions on virtual shadowing between and within each school's adcom. Those with in-person shadowing experience will be at an advantage.

For those who plan to apply (or have applied) without in-person shadowing, how have you convinced yourself that this is the right path for you, and how do you intend on convincing a skeptical audience that you will not regret your decision a few years down the line? Just my thoughts.
 
Goro said:
Scribing is glorified shadowing. It's employment and clinical exposure as well. Triple threat!

As mentioned earlier, virtual shadowing will be accepted by some schools, but not all.

If you do not have either shadowing or scribing, your app will be DOA.
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Of course employment is mainly a means to feed one’s self, but could employment help on medical school applications too? Or is it a neutral thing?
 
LondonVibes said:
Of course employment is mainly a means to feed one’s self, but could employment help on medical school applications too? Or is it a neutral thing?
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Employment is looked upon positively, regardless of whether it's clinical or non clinical.
 
LondonVibes said:
Is it possible that virtual shadowing got some points earlier in the pandemic? Or the acceptances were at one of the few schools to consider applicants without shadowing? It makes sense that it wouldn’t work at most schools this cycle when the pandemic is functionally almost over, if not over, in the USA.
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Not really. Virtual shadowing was not a thing this time last year. Scribing and other experiences involving direct contact with doctors and patients could always be an acceptable substitute, but, it's HIGHLY unlikely that someone applying with no in-person experiences through March 2020 would have able to add virtual shadowing, scribing, whatever after that and have had a successful 2020-21 cycle.

Virtual shadowing is really just a thing now, because people applying now lost the past 15 months in which to pick up experiences. This was not the case in June 2020, when people who had been counting on the last 3 months plus the next however many months to do things they had not done to that point were basically SOL (including me)!
 
Goro said:
If you do not have either shadowing or scribing, your app will be DOA.
Click to expand...

I would disagree if the person has had other work experience where they are continually at the physician's elbow: surgical assistant, office-based LPN, training physicians to use medical records software, interpreter in a group practice, etc.
 
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LizzyM said:
I would disagree is the person has had other work experience where they are continually at the physician's elbow: surgical assistant, office-based LPN, training physicians to use medical records software, interpreter in a group practice, etc.
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Ahh, I didn't think of that! Kudos to my learned colleague
 
somanysnax said:
None of the schools I’ve looked at on MSAR show 100% for Physician shadowing / Clinical observation. Unless it’s explicitly required, clearly you can get in without shadowing.
Click to expand...

Every year there are a handful of people that get in with uber low MCAT and GPA scores too.
 
Goro said:
Scribing is glorified shadowing. It's employment and clinical exposure as well. Triple threat!

As mentioned earlier, virtual shadowing will be accepted by some schools, but not all.

If you do not have either shadowing or scribing, your app will be DOA.
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What if an app has hospital volunteering (patient escort/transporting), but no in-person shadowing, only virtual?
 
apismnfla1003 said:
What if an app has hospital volunteering (patient escort/transporting), but no in-person shadowing, only virtual?
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Seems like all the ADCOMs who’ve commented here would reject you but there may be ADCOMs who take it.

side note: I had a summer of patient transport volunteering (200-ish hours) as my only clinical experience and got rejected from all MD schools so I would probably be cautious about overestimating the strength of it as a clinical activity, especially if it’s your only one.
 
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