111 N.F.L. Brains. All but One Had Brain Damage

[Lawpy]

Interesting article from the NYTimes:

111 N.F.L. Brains. All But One Had C.T.E.

And here is the study from JAMA:

Evaluation of Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy in Football Players

What are your thoughts on this?

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[Dr. Gamer]

Fake news. Liberals trying to kill football.


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[bananafish94]

Very sad but not unexpected. As a lifelong football fan (especially college football) it admittedly does make it harder to enjoy the sport knowing how much damage the players are causing themselves. I would be very interested in seeing a similar study for people who played on a lower level (i.e. high school, maybe some college). I think that studying people who haven't played their whole life like these individuals would yield very interesting and useful data. Also, I played football for a few years so I want to know what my risk factors are.


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[Cyberdyne 101]

Thanks for sharing, Lawper.
I'll revisit the thread when I get out of work.

 

[CommyO]

Fake news. Liberals trying to kill football.


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As a previous all American football player(FB/RB) in high school, I had to stop playing if I had any sort of desire to do well in school. I'm not saying this is true for others, but playing running back figuratively turns your brain into mush from how much you get hit in the head.

I was out of school for 2 weeks at a time from the times I was blind sided by some aholes..
I'm not even a big guy 5.5" 150lbs (stocky), but I was getting hit by big D-line and linebackers easily 6.2"+ 250lbs+

If it wasn't for my love of chemistry, I'd be some jock in a big state school partying it up on the weekends instead of spending my weekends in the library and my phone being a figurative desert.

 

[Jdoxis]

As a huge football fan, I was wondering what the follow up would be ever since Junior Seau committed suicide. The NFL hasn't taken the most progressive stance towards this obviously, as CTE stands to radically change the game. The selection bias is concerning, but I hope this study acts as a pilot for future funding for more robust studies, as head injuries are a giant issue in football at all levels of the game.

 

[begoood95]

Sure, there's a selection bias, but still. Straight from the article:

"But 110 positives remain significant scientific evidence of an NFL player's risk of developing CTE...About 1,300 former players have died since the BU group began examining brains. So even if every one of the other 1,200 players would have tested negative—which even the heartiest skeptics would agree could not possible be the case—the minimum CTE prevalence would be close to 9 percent, vastly higher than in the general population."

So, undoubtedly (and in tune with common sense), when you have 200+ pound men running at full-speed towards each other, the risk of neuropathological diseases of a wide variety increases. Of course, there need to be more robust studies, but these lines of evidence are not ambiguous.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

One confounding factor could be equipment. These players played in a time where helmets didn't really have any shock absorption technology like they have today. No doubt the repetitive nature of football hits causes severe brain/neurological issues, but it would be interesting to see if there is any difference in outcome when the equipment type is accounted for. Some of the new helmets feel like your head is surrounded by pillows.

As someone who played football all growing up I can honestly admit that I've already decided to really encourage my kids to not play the sport. There are other sports that are much easier on the body.

 

[JustAPhD]

One confounding factor could be equipment. These players played in a time where helmets didn't really have any shock absorption technology like they have today. No doubt the repetitive nature of football hits causes severe brain/neurological issues, but it would be interesting to see if there is any difference in outcome when the equipment type is accounted for. Some of the new helmets feel like your head is surrounded by pillows.

As someone who played football all growing up I can honestly admit that I've already decided to really encourage my kids to not play the sport. There are other sports that are much easier on the body.

True, but there's also an increasingly popular line of thought that the increase in protective equipment has actually made football more dangerous. And IIRC there are some studies that support this. Perhaps the increase in protective equipment has lessened catastrophic injuries (perhaps, just guessing there), but in terms of concussions they may have actually increased them. Most likely in an indirect manner though. People used to know how to tackle, such as with rugby. Now they launch themselves.

 

[moggat]

One confounding factor could be equipment. These players played in a time where helmets didn't really have any shock absorption technology like they have today. No doubt the repetitive nature of football hits causes severe brain/neurological issues, but it would be interesting to see if there is any difference in outcome when the equipment type is accounted for. Some of the new helmets feel like your head is surrounded by pillows.

As someone who played football all growing up I can honestly admit that I've already decided to really encourage my kids to not play the sport. There are other sports that are much easier on the body.

I vaguely remember reading a study that showed that increased "safety" in equipment actually increased the rate of concussions, but I'll have to go find the source.

I honestly think that these kinds of studies are going to spell the death of high school (and younger) football within the next ~10 years. It'll just be too high risk for schools to support. (And I say this as someone who did an even higher concussion-risk sport)

 

[CyrilFiggis]

The rules and equipment of the game have changed drastically in the last 20 years. My dad is an assistant coach of a pop warner team, has been for 20 years. There are seminars, pamphlets, etc on playing heads-up football, and more penalties for targeting, etc. that didn't exist when he started coaching. At all levels there are still going to be bad hits, that's just the nature of sports. As you get older, the level of athleticism and the speed and power of players is greater than a linear progression. as @CommyO pointed out, HS and junior high athletes face issues because of puberty and greater size difference among similarly aged athletes.

Also, new protocols at the collegiate and pro levels sideline players if they are suspected of concussion. 15-20 years ago, your toughness and value as a player was in part your ability to "shake it off" and get back out there. I believe at least from an NFL level, that we've reached close to peak incidence, and like smoking, the knowledge of the causation will lead to a decrease in overall incidence in part from the new rules and more so from players deciding to leave the sport.

That being said, the NFL gets toe most flack because of high-profile deaths, but even non-contact sports like soccer have come under fire. Head-to-head team competition will also lead to risk of injury of death, that's the nature of sport.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

And IIRC there are some studies that support this

Please post them!

Most likely in an indirect manner though. People used to know how to tackle, such as with rugby. Now they launch themselves.

Definitely true. Tackling form has gone out the window

 

[JustAPhD]

Please post them!

Definitely true. Tackling form has gone out the window

Of course! I'll try to find them and I'll edit this post with links.

Edit: huh, well not much (admitably it wasn't a very extensive search though ha). Here's an interesting idea from UNH though. Practicing without helmets for certain drills in order to nail-down proper tacking techniques for the season in order to reduce head injuries.
Helmetless Football? It’s the New Practice at New Hampshire

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Google Ann McKee. She has done extensive research on this topic, and iirc, has determined that sub-concussive blows alone can cause brain damage.

Wish I could provide some useful links, but I'm currently stuck at work

Edit: I see that she's the last author listed in the JAMA study.

 

[DaWeasel]

I played four years of football in college in one of the more concussion prone positions and on all special teams. It was always physical and I've had a bunch of intense hits. I've experienced concussions and seen many significant ones. That said, I don't think this will change any of my opinions on football. I enjoy the sport and recommend it to everyone.

One thing I am concerned with is youth football. I played but I don't plan on letting any of my children play until at least junior high. It's not worth the extra hits.

 

[rabbott1971]

Some people say to eliminate or dramatically reduce concussions in football, all you have to do is go back to helmets with no faceguard.

 

[freak7]

Fake news. Liberals trying to kill football.


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[ChymeofPassion]

I for one would never let my kids play football. For me, it doesn't take a peer reviewed study to tell me that it cumulatively damages your brain.

However, as a life-long football fan, this is how the game is played. I just hope that they expose the risk factors so parents and educators can choose whether or not to let their kids and students play, but do not change the game in the professional capacity. Improve the equipment, but keep the natural flow of the game (full contact). Though this is all hypothetical, full-contact football will NEVER be eliminated from America. Its too integrated into our culture/economy.

 

[deleted446889]

I don't think helmets can get much safer; unfortunately it just doesn't work that way. You can put as much protection as you want around an egg, it won't stop the yolk from being scrambled in there.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Google Ann McKee. She has done extensive research on this topic, and iirc, has determined that sub-concussive blows alone can cause brain damage.

Wish I could provide some useful links, but I'm currently stuck at work

Edit: I see that she's the last author listed in the JAMA study.

Obviously, I submitted the above post without having read the the NYT article (I was at work). Not surprisingly, it focuses on McKee's research; she has been at this for a while.
The Woman Who Would Save Football

I highly recommend this Frontline special:
Watch Full Episodes Online of FRONTLINE on PBS | S32 Ep2: League of Denial: The NFL's Concussion Crisis

And of course, the actual League of Denial book.

 

[Lucca]

Very sad but not unexpected. As a lifelong football fan (especially college football) it admittedly does make it harder to enjoy the sport knowing how much damage the players are causing themselves. I would be very interested in seeing a similar study for people who played on a lower level (i.e. high school, maybe some college). I think that studying people who haven't played their whole life like these individuals would yield very interesting and useful data. Also, I played football for a few years so I want to know what my risk factors are.


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the study did include players from all levels, u can see the distribution in the JAMA article. For non-pro players, the rate of CTE was 88%, down from 99% for pro

 

[begoood95]

the study did include players from all levels, u can see the distribution in the JAMA article. For non-pro players, the rate of CTE was 88%, down from 99% for pro

Oh boy! Only 88%! Lol, that's still terrible. (Not that you said it wasn't, just pointing out that 88% CTE is still not-okay.)

I played four years of football in college in one of the more concussion prone positions and on all special teams. It was always physical and I've had a bunch of intense hits. I've experienced concussions and seen many significant ones. That said, I don't think this will change any of my opinions on football. I enjoy the sport and recommend it to everyone.

One thing I am concerned with is youth football. I played but I don't plan on letting any of my children play until at least junior high. It's not worth the extra hits.

But why? I know it's fun, and there's the football "culture" and etc., but it is a legitimately dangerous sport in terms of neurological damage. I would never recommend it, ever. I think one can—perhaps even should—sacrifice some "fun" (which can be had elsewhere, in a number of other sports) for brain health. I'm not too keen on "let everyone do whatever they want as long as it's not harming me or someone else!" Nah, and especially as a (future) physician, seems unwise to recommend such a thing.

 

[WingedOx]

Look, I just want one Superbowl for the Detroit Lions, then we can shut it all down.

 

[begoood95]

Slight derail/sidenote: @Lucca I just read the "essential guide to punctuation" in your signature, and I loved it. Really, not even joking, it was moving. Genius. Thank you for that.

Everyone read what's in @Lucca's signature right now.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Look, I just want one Superbowl for the Detroit Lions, then we can shut it all down.

 

[DaWeasel]

But why? I know it's fun, and there's the football "culture" and etc., but it is a legitimately dangerous sport in terms of neurological damage. I would never recommend it, ever. I think one can—perhaps even should—sacrifice some "fun" (which can be had elsewhere, in a number of other sports) for brain health. I'm not too keen on "let everyone do whatever they want as long as it's not harming me or someone else!" Nah, and especially as a (future) physician, seems unwise to recommend such a thing.

It is dangerous but that doesn't mean it's not worth it. You're too quick to dismiss the benefits of football "culture" and the other positive aspects of the game. Teamwork, discipline, health benefits from physical conditioning, ect.

I think most of the changes to the game recently are for the better. Things such as targeting penalties and changes to special teams rules generally make the sport safer. There was a distinct difference between my first and last year of college in the NCAA's emphasis on athlete health, which is good. And as I said above, I am all for the reduction of contact in youth sports. I'd prefer my children play flag football.

My views are obviously biased by own experiences. Football opened a lot of doors for me. But if we're focused on improving the health of the general population, eliminating a major source of discipline (at least in my community) isn't the best place to start. Perhaps we could start with discouraging people from going to the local pizza buffet and washing down 14 slices of grease bread with a gallon of Coke. That would be significantly more useful than reducing the already limited amount of physical activity that young people have.

 

[Stagg737]

One confounding factor could be equipment. These players played in a time where helmets didn't really have any shock absorption technology like they have today. No doubt the repetitive nature of football hits causes severe brain/neurological issues, but it would be interesting to see if there is any difference in outcome when the equipment type is accounted for. Some of the new helmets feel like your head is surrounded by pillows.

As someone who played football all growing up I can honestly admit that I've already decided to really encourage my kids to not play the sport. There are other sports that are much easier on the body.

True, but there's also an increasingly popular line of thought that the increase in protective equipment has actually made football more dangerous. And IIRC there are some studies that support this. Perhaps the increase in protective equipment has lessened catastrophic injuries (perhaps, just guessing there), but in terms of concussions they may have actually increased them. Most likely in an indirect manner though. People used to know how to tackle, such as with rugby. Now they launch themselves.

It's been touched on, but in addition to better equipment, the rules of the game have changed a lot. I remember watching highlight films of guys getting lit up when I was a kid. With the targeting rules and penalties today, it's pretty rare to see a really brutal hit, especially one directly to the head. I'd also guess that most concussions from hits now are from whiplash when someone gets tackled onto their back as opposed to landing on their sides or stomach. I'd be interested to see data on brain injuries in football players today vs. those who played 20 or 30 years ago. I'm sure there'd still be findings significantly higher than the general population, but that can be said of pretty much every contact sport other than maybe baseball (high school female soccer players actually have the highest rate of concussion for youth athletes).

 

[moggat]

It is dangerous but that doesn't mean it's not worth it. You're too quick to dismiss the benefits of football "culture" and the other positive aspects of the game. Teamwork, discipline, health benefits from physical conditioning, ect.

Not to **** on football (or call you out specifically--it's a common comment and you just happened to be the person who said it) but these are all things you learn in ANY team sport, and most individual sports as well. I don't see why we can't find sports for children/teens to play that will help them develop teamwork and physical skills without scrambling their brains in the process. It just seems like the risk/reward payoff is way too low considering there are lots of other alternatives that may not be quite as dangerous.

 

[begoood95]

It is dangerous but that doesn't mean it's not worth it. You're too quick to dismiss the benefits of football "culture" and the other positive aspects of the game. Teamwork, discipline, health benefits from physical conditioning, ect.

I think most of the changes to the game recently are for the better. Things such as targeting penalties and changes to special teams rules generally make the sport safer. There was a distinct difference between my first and last year of college in the NCAA's emphasis on athlete health, which is good. And as I said above, I am all for the reduction of contact in youth sports. I'd prefer my children play flag football.

My views are obviously biased by own experiences. Football opened a lot of doors for me. But if we're focused on improving the health of the general population, eliminating a major source of discipline (at least in my community) isn't the best place to start. Perhaps we could start with discouraging people from going to the local pizza buffet and washing down 14 slices of grease bread with a gallon of Coke. That would be significantly more useful than reducing the already limited amount of physical activity that young people have.

Not to **** on football (or call you out specifically--it's a common comment and you just happened to be the person who said it) but these are all things you learn in ANY team sport, and most individual sports as well. I don't see why we can't find sports for children/teens to play that will help them develop teamwork and physical skills without scrambling their brains in the process. It just seems like the risk/reward payoff is way too low considering there are lots of other alternatives that may not be quite as dangerous.

Yeah, this is what I was going to say, that "teamwork, discipline, health benefits" and so on can all be achieved from many sports.

You make fair points though! I, personally, just couldn't or wouldn't recommend it based on what I know.

 

[Lucca]

It's been touched on, but in addition to better equipment, the rules of the game have changed a lot. I remember watching highlight films of guys getting lit up when I was a kid. With the targeting rules and penalties today, it's pretty rare to see a really brutal hit, especially one directly to the head. I'd also guess that most concussions from hits now are from whiplash when someone gets tackled onto their back as opposed to landing on their sides or stomach. I'd be interested to see data on brain injuries in football players today vs. those who played 20 or 30 years ago. I'm sure there'd still be findings significantly higher than the general population, but that can be said of pretty much every contact sport other than maybe baseball (high school female soccer players actually have the highest rate of concussion for youth athletes).

this is a good point. If nothing else, this study will definitely spark more research in this area. The fact that this study is so illuminating and receiving so much attention goes to show how much more we need to know.

In any case, the NFL as an organization is definitely complicit in suppressing (and muddying the waters on) research into the connection between football and brain injury. Has anyone in the organization been held responsible for doing this? Anyone lost their job? Does FIFA do this?

These are not rhetorical questions, I'm very ignorant about anything sports.

 

[enchantediris]

this is a good point. If nothing else, this study will definitely spark more research in this area. The fact that this study is so illuminating and receiving so much attention goes to show how much more we need to know.

In any case, the NFL as an organization is definitely complicit in suppressing (and muddying the waters on) research into the connection between football and brain injury. Has anyone in the organization been held responsible for doing this? Anyone lost their job? Does FIFA do this?

These are not rhetorical questions, I'm very ignorant about anything sports.

All I know about football is boo Roger Goodell, because deflategate

I am also in the boat that I would actively discourage my kids from playing football. I swam, played tennis, and ice skated... and I think I turned out just fine. There are plenty of sports that don't have such a high prevalence of brain injury, and I personally don't think that any such entertainment is worth that risk.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

In any case, the NFL as an organization is definitely complicit in suppressing (and muddying the waters on) research into the connection between football and brain injury. Has anyone in the organization been held responsible for doing this? Anyone lost their job? Does FIFA do this?

The NFL is a joke of an organization. The way it treats its players is absolutely despicable. They haven't been held responsible because they have so much money and power. Just tack it to the list of things Roger Goodell should be fired over.

The NBA and MLB are so much better ran, not to mention they actually treat their players fairly decent.

 

[Stagg737]

Not to **** on football (or call you out specifically--it's a common comment and you just happened to be the person who said it) but these are all things you learn in ANY team sport, and most individual sports as well. I don't see why we can't find sports for children/teens to play that will help them develop teamwork and physical skills without scrambling their brains in the process. It just seems like the risk/reward payoff is way too low considering there are lots of other alternatives that may not be quite as dangerous.

To be fair, this is not a problem unique to most team sports. Concussion rates in soccer are actually now higher than football, and I believe ankle and knee injuries are higher in soccer as well. I remember a study a couple years back that showed basketball actually had the highest rate of stress injuries in athlete's legs as well as ankle injuries in general. Distance running is notorious for degenerative injuries. Most sports played at a competitive level are going to create long-term health issues in those who play them, and football is not alone in the area of brain injury (if you're scared to let your kids play football, keep them away from soccer as well).

this is a good point. If nothing else, this study will definitely spark more research in this area. The fact that this study is so illuminating and receiving so much attention goes to show how much more we need to know.

In any case, the NFL as an organization is definitely complicit in suppressing (and muddying the waters on) research into the connection between football and brain injury. Has anyone in the organization been held responsible for doing this? Anyone lost their job? Does FIFA do this?

These are not rhetorical questions, I'm very ignorant about anything sports.

The NFL is awful as an organization. I'm unaware if anyone has lost their job, but they've certainly done a lot to attempt to cover up the issue and downplay the historical problems. I think they have come a long way in terms of implementing rules to keep players safe and investing in equipment technology, but the major issue is that the health issues of retired players is being brushed under the rug.Idk if the NFL should be responsible for those athletes, as these were individuals who signed contracts and were paid millions to slam their heads into each other, but I agree the route they've taken in addressing it has been shady.

FIFA is another **** organization known internationally for extreme corruption and covering things up. Major studies have not been done on overall concussion rates for pro athletes, but it's much more difficult because there are literally dozens of leagues and tens of thousands (maybe hundreds of thousands) of athletes actively on FIFA teams at any given time and individual leagues are allowed to address the issues as they see fit. FIFA is more about enforcing consistency with rules and regulating international events. They don't really step in on individual leagues unless something really egregious happens.

In the U.S., pretty much every league handles stuff better than the NFL. The NBA, NHL, and MLB all handle their business a lot better than the NFL imo. Their biggest issues are financial ones dealing with player contracts and those have always been pretty out in the open.