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Well Egypt is in Africa. I know so many people that do this it isn't even funny. It's obvious that the application is asking whether they are black but people love taking advantage of "loopholes". If you go off telling people it probably wouldn't even really accomplish anything because your "friend" could just say they misunderstood. Also I refuse to believe that person got into med school solely for being Native American. They probably got in because they were a well qualified applicant.
 
Are you serious? Last time I checked Egypt is on the continent of Africa, it is an African country, and, therefore, she is African American. She is not cheating or lying about her ethnicity because that is how she may identify herself and rightfully so. I also hope you know that being racially insensitive and being priveleged is not exclusive to non - minorities. I don't know what was the purpose of stating that. Also, even if it was a situation where she was lying, mind your own business and worry about yourself.
 
nope1955 said:
Are you serious? Last time I checked Egypt is on the continent of Africa, it is an African country, and, therefore, she is African American. She is not cheating or lying about her ethnicity because that is how she may identify herself and rightfully so. I also hope you know that being racially insensitive and being priveleged is not exclusive to non - minorities. I don't know what was the purpose of stating that. Also, even if it was a situation where she was lying, mind your own business and worry about yourself.
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People from Northern Africa (who don't have ties to the black racial groups in africa) are considered Caucasian.

To OP:
Don't worry about it. Likely someone will call her out on this anyway.
 
She's not considered black, per the standards set forth in the application, but whatever. Hopefully an adcom somewhere notices and has her file revoked. It's not your problem to worry about though.

This has come up in the past- for the same reason a white South African can't list their race as black/African American, most Egyptians cannot as well, as they're considered Caucasian.
 
Lord Boko said:
Well Egypt is in Africa. I know so many people that do this it isn't even funny. It's obvious that the application is asking whether they are black but people love taking advantage of "loopholes". If you go off telling people it probably wouldn't even really accomplish anything because your "friend" could just say they misunderstood. Also I refuse to believe that person got into med school solely for being Native American. They probably got in because they were a well qualified applicant.
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Plenty of well qualified people don't get in. Undoubtly race changes if people get accepted or not. I'm not saying its wrong or right. I'm not saying that these people wouldn't have got into medical school anyway. But race is clearly a factor in admissions.

Anyway this is just going to turn into another classic urm debate.

Egyptian isn't considered African American. I have friends that tried to claim this also.
 
A lot of self-ID surveys I've seen lately either ask for race and ethnicity as two totally separate questions, and/or they make some sort of distinction between "European white" and "North African/Middle Eastern white." I wouldn't be too surprised if AMCAS followed suit in a few years if this really upsets you that much...but with your own coursework, application, etc., you probably already have enough to let yourself over-stress about, so don't worry about this too much.
 
DoctorSynthesis said:
Plenty of well qualified people don't get in. Undoubtly race changes if people get accepted or not. I'm not saying its wrong or right. I'm not saying that these people wouldn't have got into medical school anyway. But race is clearly a factor in admissions.

Anyway this is just going to turn into another classic urm debate.

Egyptian isn't considered African American. I have friends that tried to claim this also.
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I didn't mean there was no race factor or URM advantage. I also didn't mean every well qualified applicant gets in. I simply meant that usually if an applicant gets in they will be well qualified regardless of whether or not they are URM.
 
their fault for making stupid distinctions like that
wonder what they're going to do with all these mixed race kids
 
Psai said:
their fault for making stupid distinctions like that
wonder what they're going to do with all these mixed race kids
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Interesting point. Also: to everyone else in this thread: what about an ivory white South African pulling the same stunt?

From what I've heard these people usually are forced into primary care because they can barely pass the step. Then they are more likely to actually do what so many doe-eyed premiers say they will and they return to their communities to practice medicine in underserved areas. On the other hand if they pull off a good step score and have honors etc. clearly they belonged in med school anyway.

Don't worry about it.
 
Iamkool said:
I really don't know what to do. This girl I know has been lying about being African American for all of undergrad (I found this out because her name just got announced for the african american scholarships) and has been getting scholarships for it. Now for medical school, she is applying as African American when she is really Egyptian. The thing is, i'm afraid she might actually get away with it since she kind of looks dark skinned and has been getting away with it for all of college and been getting all these scholarships that should be going to actual African Americans. She brags about how white she is and how she only has white friends, and says very racially insensitive things. She only gets mediocre grades and a mediocre mcat (a 27) even though she comes from a privileged family so she doesn't have actual disadvantages like actual minorities but doesn't work hard because she knows she can still get in.

Should I snitch on her? idk what is the right thing to do. I feel like she is taking away a spot from someone who will actually contribute to their community.
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I pretty much agree with everyone else. You shouldn't have time to worry about someone else and if you are doing it bc y'all are applying to similiar schools thats even worse.

In situation's like these I feel you need to sit back and let karma do her job. Her past indiscretions will catch up with her one day but its not within your or anyone else's power to decide when that will be.
 
resiroth said:
Interesting point. Also: to everyone else in this thread: what about an ivory white South African pulling the same stunt?

From what I've heard these people usually are forced into primary care because they can barely pass the step. Then they are more likely to actually do what so many doe-eyed premiers say they will and they return to their communities to practice medicine in underserved areas. On the other hand if they pull off a good step score and have honors etc. clearly they belonged in med school anyway.

Don't worry about it.
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[citation needed]
 
Psai said:
their fault for making stupid distinctions like that
wonder what they're going to do with all these mixed race kids
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Mixed race kid checking in. My grandmother was born in Kenya, but is ethnically Indian (a large contingent of Indian farmers migrated to Nairobi). Had a cousin claim to be african-american (guess he could pull out the death certificate that showed place of birth), but the rest of the family thought that was bogus.

Anyway, all the race/ethnicity stuff pales in comparison to your socio-economic status, IMHO. I think med schools look to what community you identify with by your volunteer and ECs and disadvantaged status. Med schools are a bit more thoughtful about admissions than undergrad.
 
Iamkool said:
I really don't know what to do. This girl I know has been lying about being African American for all of undergrad (I found this out because her name just got announced for the african american scholarships) and has been getting scholarships for it. Now for medical school, she is applying as African American when she is really Egyptian. The thing is, i'm afraid she might actually get away with it since she kind of looks dark skinned and has been getting away with it for all of college and been getting all these scholarships that should be going to actual African Americans. She brags about how white she is and how she only has white friends, and says very racially insensitive things. She only gets mediocre grades and a mediocre mcat (a 27) even though she comes from a privileged family so she doesn't have actual disadvantages like actual minorities but doesn't work hard because she knows she can still get in.

Should I snitch on her? idk what is the right thing to do. I feel like she is taking away a spot from someone who will actually contribute to their community.
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How does one distinguish ethnicity? Is it colour? Is it their hair? Is it a specific gene? Is it their name? No, it's not. So what right have you got to tell someone that they are not the person who they claim to be? Furthermore, what qualification do you have that makes you an expert in these matters?
 
Rainbow Zebra said:
Anyway, all the race/ethnicity stuff pales in comparison to your socio-economic status, IMHO. I think med schools look to what community you identify with by your volunteer and ECs and disadvantaged status. Med schools are a bit more thoughtful about admissions than undergrad.
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Agreed with the first part. But don't think the rest is the case from observations.

Doctor Kiwi said:
How does one distinguish ethnicity? Is it colour? Is it their hair? Is it a specific gene? Is it their name? No, it's not. So what right have you got to tell someone that they are not the person who they claim to be? Furthermore, what qualification do you have that makes you an expert in these matters?
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You can't put African American/Black unless you are physically black.

Egyptians, North Africans, Middle Easterners are not seen as AA/Black for medical school. They are NOT URM. I know bc I'm one and this is what I been told by adcoms.

Also: SDN wisdom from LizzyM. See here:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/does-being-egyptian-classify-you-as-urm.908221/
 
tumblr_ma0yvkYL9o1rt1erio1_500.png
 
anxiouslyanxious said:
Agreed with the first part. But don't think the rest is the case from observations.


Egyptians, North Africans, Middle Easterners are not seen as AA/Black for medical school. They are NOT URM. I know bc I'm one and this is what I been told by adcoms.

Also: SDN wisdom from LizzyM. See here:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/does-being-egyptian-classify-you-as-urm.908221/
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First of all, all of the proper nouns you listed above are NATIONALITIES, not RACES/ETHNICITIES. You would do well to remember that an EGYPTIAN person can be either NEGROID or CAUCASOID. So, the EGYPTIAN under discussion could be either NEGROID or CAUCASOID. I've seen tons of black people who look white.
 
Race is not something you can pick and choose and it is independt of your place of birth. You can't just start identifying yourself as someone you are not.
 
Iamkool said:
Should I snitch on her? idk what is the right thing to do. I feel like she is taking away a spot from someone who will actually contribute to their community.
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This person might or might not be misrepresenting herself, but how are you going to snitch on her? Will you write a letter that says, "Hey AMCAS, ABC might be misrepresenting her racial info"? I doubt that's going to get far. I don't think that there's anything you can or should realistically do in this situation, even if she is blatantly misrepresenting herself, so I think you should let it go and focus on your own application.

I'm sure that adcoms can make their own determination of her race and their overall feeling of her as an applicant from her essays and interviews. No snitching necessary.

dbeast said:
SNITCHES GET STITCHES YO
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hfbb073d0.jpg

:laugh::laugh::laugh:
 
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Doctor Kiwi said:
First of all, all of the proper nouns you listed above are NATIONALITIES, not RACES/ETHNICITIES. You would do well to remember that an EGYPTIAN person can be either NEGROID or CAUCASOID. So, the EGYPTIAN under discussion could be either NEGROID or CAUCASOID. I've seen tons of black people who look white.
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THE VAST MAJORITY OF Egyptians DEFINE THEMSELVES AS ARABS and ARABS AREN'T BLACK FOR AMCAS and ARE NOT UNDERREPRESENTED IN MEDICINE. This is directly from adcom members I know. I asked bc I am North African.

Your seeing "tons of black people who look white" has NOTHING to do with the question.
 
This is *****ic. You said she's priveleged, correct? The obvious answer is to blackmail her with said snitching attempt.

And on a serious note: It's your decision what you want to do. Why are you asking an online forum? You shouldn't need social approval to do what you think is "right," right? That's what they taught you in the movies/after-school-specials, right?

Proceed.
 
Don't let this dissolve into a yelling match. Everyone with two eyes and a brain understands that AMCAS means Black people when they put Black/African-American; however, they do allow people to then check other boxes below this designation (i.e. Afro-Caribbean, African, African-American).

If OP's classmate decides to put Black/African-American then African they will be designated as URM. As my experiences showed this designation will make you a target for diversity outreach, as a part of that outreach they will pour through the applicant's background to determine the exact affiliation he/she has. At this point 99% of people who have falsified URM designation will be found out and not offered interview. For the 1% who make it thru the screen - they will likely have to interview with a diversity person at the school while they are there. At this point they will likely be uncovered.

Let them take the risk. Not your problem.
 
puglet said:
This person might be misrepresenting herself, but how are you going to snitch on her? Will you write a letter that says, "Hey AMCAS, A B C might be misrepresenting her racial info" ? I doubt that's going to get far. Unfortunately, I don't think that there's anything you can realistically do in this situation so I think you should let it go and focus on your own application.

If she reveals that her family is from Egypt on AMCAS or in an interview, I'm sure that adcoms can make their own determination of her race and their overall feeling of her as an applicant. No snitching necessary.


hfbb073d0.jpg

:laugh::laugh::laugh:
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dawg you don't put stitches in dead people, costs money
 
anxiouslyanxious said:
THE VAST MAJORITY OF Egyptians DEFINE THEMSELVES AS ARABS and ARABS AREN'T BLACK FOR AMCAS and ARE NOT UNDERREPRESENTED IN MEDICINE. This is directly from adcom members I know. I asked bc I am North African.

Your seeing "tons of black people who look white" has NOTHING to do with the question.
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You're right that a majority do but... there's still a pretty sizable black Egyptian community (at least where I am currently located in the US). They don't consider themselves Arab nor do they really look Arab. To make things more confusing there are black Arabs (descendents of Sub-Saharan African slaves/immigrants to Arab countries), as well.
 
anxiouslyanxious said:
THE VAST MAJORITY OF Egyptians DEFINE THEMSELVES AS ARABS and ARABS AREN'T BLACK FOR AMCAS and ARE NOT UNDERREPRESENTED IN MEDICINE. This is directly from adcom members I know. I asked bc I am North African.

Your seeing "tons of black people who look white" has NOTHING to do with the question.
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It actually has everything to do with the question. The person in question may not be Arab at all. She may actually be black, because other than Arab people, there are also many black people in Egypt. She might also be a black person, who looks white or Arab, which has resulted in this discussion. Im also from Africa, so it doesnt make you any more of an expert.
 
ChemEngMD said:
Don't let this dissolve into a yelling match. Everyone with two eyes and a brain understands that AMCAS means Black people when they put Black/African-American; however, they do allow people to then check other boxes below this designation (i.e. Afro-Caribbean, African, African-American).

If OP's classmate decides to put Black/African-American then African they will be designated as URM. As my experiences showed this designation will make you a target for diversity outreach, as a part of that outreach they will pour through the applicant's background to determine the exact affiliation he/she has. At this point 99% of people who have falsified URM designation will be found out and not offered interview. For the 1% who make it thru the screen - they will likely have to interview with a diversity person at the school while they are there. At this point they will likely be uncovered.

Let them take the risk. Not your problem.
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Do you have any firsthand experience with the bolded, or do you know if this happens at your institution/other medical schools? At least from my experience, I know plenty of students from African immigrant backgrounds who have checked off African American and made it into medical school without being called out on it.
 
Cavs5284 said:
Do you have any firsthand experience with the bolded, or do you know if this happens at your institution/other medical schools? At least from my experience, I know plenty of students from African immigrant backgrounds who have checked off African American and made it into medical school without being called out on it.
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n=1, but with my experience at his school, I was interviewed by someone in the multicultural department. My experience was similar at other schools. At two of the schools, even though the person wasn't directly affiliated with the multiculturalism department, one interviewer interviewed all of the minority students (eg. there were 2 other African Americans, all of us were interviewed by the same person). It could very well be a coincidence in that case however.
 
Cavs5284 said:
Do you have any firsthand experience with the bolded, or do you know if this happens at your institution/other medical schools? At least from my experience, I know plenty of students from African immigrant backgrounds who have checked off African American and made it into medical school without being called out on it.
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If you're Black African then you're fine. I meant Arab, South Asian, or White people from Africa who put down African-American.

AA, Afro-Caribbean, Afro-Latino, Black African are all considered "Black/African-American" by AMCAS
 
ChemEngMD said:
If you're Black African then you're fine. I meant Arab, South Asian, or White people from Africa who put down African American.

AA, Afro-Caribbean, Afro-Latino, Black African are all considered "Black/African-American" by AMCAS
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This is very interesting to me. Essentially, you can be as African as the kid next door, living in the same neighborhood, same disadvantages etc., but if he happens to produce more melanin than you based on his genetic heritage, he has an advantage? Please correct me if I am wrong. It's just according to that statement, it seems this whole movement has everything to do with aesthetics and nothing to do with actually getting qualified people with different cultural backgrounds.
 
why are you so worried about her? and the saddest part about this is that youre prolly a close friend of hers if you know her grades and her mcat. but instead of A.)telling her what she is doing is ethically wrong (which i know you would never do) or B.) minding your business, you are contemplating 'snitching' which will take way more energy than A or B. What are you going to do, email all of the schools shes applying to because your morally conscious, mother teresa self cant stand to see someone 'abusing the system that was meant for others' .... okay... i would love to believe that youre not contemplating snitching for self-satisfaction
 
StudyLater said:
This is very interesting to me. Essentially, you can be as African as the kid next door, living in the same neighborhood, same disadvantages etc., but if he happens to produce more melanin than you based on his genetic heritage, he has an advantage? Please correct me if I am wrong. It's just according to that statement, it seems this whole movement has everything to do with aesthetics and nothing to do with actually getting qualified people with different cultural backgrounds.
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Are you arguing that if a black and a white South African living in the same neighborhood in SA (unlikely but okay) were to move to the US they would face the exact same challenges in our society?
 
ChemEngMD said:
Are you arguing that if a black and a white South African living in the same neighborhood in SA (unlikely but okay) were to move to the US they would face the exact same challenges in our society?
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That was the assumption in the hypothetical. And why is it any more likely that the "blacker" one will have more challenges than the "whiter" one?

By the way, now we're introducing issues of SES and disadvantage, which really can be looked at independent of race. I wanted to talk about getting cultural diversity in the schools, which I thought is what this whole URM thing is about. If so, why does one get an advantage over another from the same culture based on pigment? Or is this even true? I'm just going off what you were saying and trying to understand the logic behind it.
 
StudyLater said:
That was the assumption in the hypothetical. And why is it any more likely that the "blacker" one will have more challenges than the "whiter" one?

By the way, now we're introducing issues of SES and disadvantage, which really can be looked at independent of race. I wanted to talk about getting cultural diversity in the schools, which I thought is what this whole URM thing is about. If so, why does one get an advantage over another from the same culture based on pigment? Or is this even true? I'm just going off what you were saying and trying to understand the logic behind it.
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They aren't from the same culture. Black Africans and the people who came to colonize them or immigrated later do not have the same culture. That's like saying Native Americans, descendants of European colonists, and modern day Asian immigrants all share the same culture.

Many African and Afro-Carribean immigrants end up living and working in Black neighborhoods.
 
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PrettyIvy said:
You're right that a majority do but... there's still a pretty sizable black Egyptian community (at least where I am currently located in the US). They don't consider themselves Arab nor do they really look Arab. To make things more confusing there are black Arabs (descendents of Sub-Saharan African slaves/immigrants to Arab countries), as well.
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Pretty sure that based on op's concerns, the individual is not arab. If she was a black Egyptian of non-Arab descent she would be fine. But the Arab populations of North Africa are considered ORM.
 
StudyLater said:
This is very interesting to me. Essentially, you can be as African as the kid next door, living in the same neighborhood, same disadvantages etc., but if he happens to produce more melanin than you based on his genetic heritage, he has an advantage? Please correct me if I am wrong. It's just according to that statement, it seems this whole movement has everything to do with aesthetics and nothing to do with actually getting qualified people with different cultural backgrounds.
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Well, there is some merit to the surface being more important to many diversity committees than the background. Most URM students are not the idealized underprivileged inner city AA or Hispanic, but rather from affluent families. But that is a discussion for another day- this is about whether the AAMC considers African Arabs URM, which they do not.
 
I don't know. Afro-Arabs look pretty "black" in their wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro-Arab

IMO, we should just stop pretending. They (adcoms and other AA supporters) want to give preferences based on darker skin color. So stop with the vague social constructs and just go ahead and take a skin biopsy of every applicant and put it through a spectrophotometer to get a color reading. Then cross out the indian-sounding names, and you're done. Might as well vs. arguing about who is and isn't "black enough" for a special admissions advantage.
 
freemontie said:
I don't know. Afro-Arabs look pretty "black" in their wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro-Arab

IMO, we should just stop pretending. They (adcoms and other AA supporters) want to give preferences based on darker skin color. So stop with the vague social constructs and just go ahead and take a skin biopsy of every applicant and put it through a spectrophotometer to get a color reading. Then cross out the indian-sounding names, and you're done. Might as well vs. arguing about who is and isn't "black enough" for a special admissions advantage.
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Maybe add this to interviewers' notes? http://nis.princeton.edu/downloads/NIS-Skin-Color-Scale.pdf

I don't think so. It is about race and ethnicity, not skin color. It is about whether your ancestors came from sub-Sahara Africa. Where were your people in 1491?

Egyptians are classified as "white" which is a classification for people who have ancestry from the peoples of Europe, North Africa or the Middle East; it is a category not a color.
 
LizzyM said:
Maybe add this to interviewers' notes? http://nis.princeton.edu/downloads/NIS-Skin-Color-Scale.pdf

I don't think so. It is about race and ethnicity, not skin color. It is about whether your ancestors came from sub-Sahara Africa. Where were your people in 1491?

Egyptians are classified as "white" which is a classification for people who have ancestry from the peoples of Europe, North Africa or the Middle East; it is a category not a color.
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Good luck finding out where "my people" were in in 1491. I don't even know where they were 4 generations ago. And I don't care, and I'm befuddled at why you do.

Hypothetical: In the mid 1800s the British Empire brought an influx of Indian laborers into East Africa. Today, there is a significant Indian diaspora in SE Africa. Question: how much cross-breeding between the Indian and native African population would be enough to discount the Asian disadvantage and/or qualify for the Black advantage for any given descendant? And are you going to test that with an elaborate family tree, genetically- or, like I assume, skin color, hair type or other superficial physical characteristics.
 
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I have Egyptian friends who would not want to be considered anything other than Egyptian.

What about someone who is half African American (Black) and half Arab (other parent from overseas Middle East)?
 
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