.

Discover Your Odds of Getting into Medical School
This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Members do not see this ad.
LizzyM said:
It all comes down to "what does this applicant contribute to the diversity of the class?" If there is someone who would contribute equally to diversity of the class but has better numbers, that person is more likely to get an interview (hence the "Asian disadvanage", tell your Dragon Mothers to cut all y'all some slack). If a Laplander raised by wolves in Siberia is considered to bring diversity to the class, that is going to increase the likelihood of being interviewed.
Click to expand...
I'd rather tell your employer to watch out for an adcom spewing hate online. I doubt you'd have the guts to say that about asian applicant's mothers to their face.

And that 2nd sentence doesn't make a lot of sense. We know better numbers, all else equal, means more likely to interview. Are you drinking?
 
gettheleadout said:
Okay, so let me ask you this. Which of the following two individuals is URM and why is the distinction important in medical school admissions?

A: An individual of non-African (say, Indian/South Asian) ancestry adopted at infancy and raised by an African-American family, bearing a traditionally African-American name, identifying with the community and culture of his African-American family, and appearing Black in skin tone/features.

B: An individual of African (say, Nigerian) ancestry adopted at infancy and raised by a Caucasian/White non-Hispanic family, bearing a traditionally Anglo-Saxon name, identifying with the community and culture of his Anglo-Saxon family, and appearing Black in skin tone/features.
Click to expand...

What is person A's race for clinical /health purposes? Does he self identify as "African-American or Black" when filling out health records? Would black patients seeing his picture on a hospital website identify him as black?

Answer the same about person B.

Each school is going to ask, does this person add to the diversity of our student body? Why or why not? It isn't cut & dry.

It is also very rare to see children of any race adopted into black families. I'd be very surprised if any individuals like example A even exist.
 
Goro said:
NONE of these are URM except honest-to-God African Americans. And I have yet to see a Black Muslim interview at my school. I seriously doubt s/her will come in with Nubian or Arab features either.
Click to expand...
It was the judging of one's race based on their name that I objected to. And all the people I listed in that post (Muhammad Ali, Kareem, El-Hajj) were 'honest-to-God' African-Americans . In addition, 25% of the ~3million American Muslims are Black and they are the more likely to covert to Islam than any other race is. Many Muslims have Arab names. My overall point is that Arab names are in no way limited to Arab people.
 
gettheleadout said:
While I appreciate the sarcasm, my point is that the only things that truly matter are outward appearance and personal cultural background insofar as we are concerned with patients identifying with their physicians. Ancestry is correlated with these but itself is irrelevant. The dark Indian child raised by African American parents in that community is Black as far as he/she and everyone else is concerned because no one can tell where his/her ancestors happened to reside.
Click to expand...

I'm mostly doing a little light-hearted teasing, but you have to realize that the scenarios you describe are so uncommon that most adcoms are unlikely to have ever encountered such an applicant.

I suspect the firmest answer you would ever get to your scenario would be, "Lord, I have no idea. We'd probably get the committee together to discuss it and come up with a consensus on how much it brought to the table."
 
Circling way back to the OP, what I was getting at was that we can fish out an Arab trying to pull the URM card.

Shams al Deen said:
It was the judging of someone's race based on their name that I objected to. And all the people I listed in that post (Muhammad Ali, Kareem, El-Hajj) were 'honest-to-God' African-Americans lol. In addition, 25% of the ~3million American Muslims are Black and they are the more likely to covert to Islam than any other race is. Many Muslims have Arab names.
Click to expand...
 
allantois said:
Race is not something you can pick and choose and it is independt of your place of birth. You can't just start identifying yourself as someone you are not.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, part of this has to do with the political correctness in our society where you have to call someone who is black an African American. I had some friends that were white from South Africa and yes, they are African American too. Words mean things and using a euphemism like African American can lead to stuff like this happening.

But hey, there's nothing that will be done to change this, so our country is stuck with it.

 
ThoracicGuy said:
Unfortunately, part of this has to do with the political correctness in our society where you have to call someone who is black an African American. I had some friends that were white from South Africa and yes, they are African American too. Words mean things and using a euphemism like African American can lead to stuff like this happening.

But hey, there's nothing that will be done to change this, so our country is stuck with it.

Click to expand...


A white from South Africa does not meet the US Census definition of African-American. Words mean things... learn the definitions.
 
LizzyM said:
A white from South Africa does not meet the US Census definition of African-American. Words mean things... learn the definitions.
Click to expand...

I know what the meaning is. Just because the US government says that African American only means people that are black, doesn't mean that a white person from South Africa isn't African American, either. By the literal definition of the words, this would be true. By the politically correct definitions, it wouldn't. That's how you get the example in the video where a CNN reporter calls a black immigrant to France (that shot up the Charlie Hebdo offices) as an African American. He is ingrained with black=African American.

Sorry, this term is just a pet peeve of mine and a bit of a tangent from the original question...
 
LOL. Wow. Hate to say it, but what a lame thread.

1.) For the premeds out there, just focus on what you need to do. apparently this thread was started today and it's already three pages long. roflmao. If you want to complain about race and whatnot and how everything is unfair, I'm sure we can talk about any sorts of racial inequalities non-stop, and on top of that, why don't we talk about socioeconomic inequalities, while we're at it? I mean, I aint gonna lie, I'm sure that most schools have a class comprised of 50%+ of students whose parents are physicians/lawyers/PhDs whatever... Or that they don't even have to worry about how much med school debt they're going to have...we could complain all day.

But before you start thinking of that, STOP. Just let it go.

2.) And honestly, I choose to not take a stance on all of this because I simply don't know the experience of being the target of racial prejudice, all the time. Whether its overt or covert.

3.) I find it interesting how this is being brought up shortly after all of the BMore stuff...I hope it isn't related...

4.) I don't think a non-URM premed does not make it into XYZ school or any school for that matter because of this racial stuff. If you're finding this to be worthy to complain about, clearly you don't have what it takes unless you take away what others have. Instead you should be thinking about how to make YOURSELF better as an applicant. Not how others could be worse off.
 
The popular response here is to mind your own business, but we would do well to remember the words of Edmund Burke, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

OP, you should do what you think is right. You can shoot an anonymous email to AMCAS/the schools she is applying to... then focus on your own application.
 
Lawper said:
:smack: Did you seriously just miss the sarcasm...
Click to expand...
Wow, I am in awe of your wittiness!

I was just pointing out how hilarious it is that nobody bats an eye when people say dumb stuff like this ("Oh, it's just a joke!") but if I were to say something remotely stereotypical about black people, I'll get a ton of people screaming about my comments being racist.
 
LizzyM said:
I'm sorry that you miss the irony and sarcasm... it was a bit of a joke... I'm sorry if I offended you. PM me if you need me to explain the joke.
Click to expand...
Lawper said:
:smack: Did you seriously just miss the sarcasm...
Click to expand...
I was going to let it die but.....it's NOT sarcastic. Or ironic. Or witty. It's a simple racist joke at asians and their mothers. There's nothing to explain or to "get." Recognition of it being wrong and a retraction would be nice. But whatevs. Guess we're going to have a "can't you take a joke/can't you understand (bogus literary device)" bandwagon instead.

I mean can you explain to me the sarcasm or irony or the intricacies of the joke that need explaining:
"tell your Dragon Mothers to cut all y'all some slack"
 
freemontie said:
I was going to let it die but.....it's NOT sarcastic. Or ironic. Or witty. It's a simple racist joke at asians and their mothers. There's nothing to explain or to "get." Recognition of it being wrong and a retraction would be nice. But whatevs. Guess we're going to have a "can't you take a joke/can't you understand (bogus literary device)" bandwagon instead.

I mean can you explain to me the sarcasm or irony or the intricacies of the joke that need explaining:
"tell your Dragon Mothers to cut all y'all some slack"
Click to expand...
She or he or whatever LizzyM is, apologized to the person who showed offense to what she said. I think that's more than enough. No further commentary from LizzyM is necessary in my opinion.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
gettheleadout said:
Okay, wait. I thought the point of URM consideration in admissions was that producing a physician population of similar racial/ethnic makeup as the patient population was in the interest of public health because patients respond better to physicians that look like them, relate to them in background and culture, etc. If that's the case, then does ancestry actually matter?

Consider a white male infant adopted and raised by a black, African-American family in the U.S. This child becomes a product of the culture he is brought up in, and is as much "culturally" (i.e. customs, perspectives, etc.) black as his non-adopted black siblings. The key difference is perhaps the child does not experience the same challenges (of whatever sort) as his siblings due to his skin color. This child would not be classified as URM.

Consider the same child but a novel medical procedure induces melanocyte activity such that he attains equal pigmentation compared to his siblings (assume reasonable facial feature similarity.) This child would be classified as URM, correct? I don't recall AMCAS wanting records of biological parent ancestry.

In this case the argument would ostensibly be that in not "appearing" black, the child would not have the same advantage as a typical black physician in working with black patients. So, isn't skin color exactly what is important?

Edit: Also, if ancestry is for some reason important, doesn't this imply that the "URM advantage" is more of a traditional affirmative action initiative unlike it is usually described?
Click to expand...
The child in your former example isn't underrepresented in medicine.**** neither is the child in your latter example. URM does not equate pigmentation.
 
onyisraw said:
She or he or whatever LizzyM is, apologized to the person who showed offense to what she said. I think that's more than enough. No further commentary from LizzyM is necessary in my opinion.
Click to expand...
I'm simply saying don't continue to defend something that is clearly wrong by telling people they "missed" the non-existent sarcasm or irony or didn't understand the joke. It's defending the statement by blaming the person who pointed it out. I don't know what's confusing about that to you or lawper, lizzym, goro or ambitiousgirl (likers).
 
eyWRTfL.gif
 
Iamkool said:
they were well qualified. that person was super smart, actually and got into a top medical school
Click to expand...

I'm super confused. This person, with a 27 MCAT, an egyptian applying as an african american, got into a top medical school? URM status aside, with a 27 MCAT? how?
 
Goro said:
Please spare us the outraged political correctness. It's a real term, and it's NOT a pejorative. And Dragon Moms come in all colors and cultures. Gawd knows I grew up among them!

Amazon product ASIN 1883965292Amazon product ASIN 0143120581http://amychua.com/

View attachment 191993
View attachment 191994
Click to expand...
It comes from this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Lady
And it has a very long history of being offensive.

Recently the POSSIBLY-positive aspects have been used when Yale law prof. Amy Chua used the term "Tiger Mom" to describe her parenting. But, "tell your dragon moms to cut y'all some slack" is insulting at worst and condescending at least. And you're getting really annoying by trying to defend it.

PS- Cudos for finding that "Dragon Mom" book by a Hispanic author. I'm sure you'll work hard to unearth the few other instances to back-up your point. I can find positive uses of the much more offensive n-word too. Keep going, Goro. Pro tip: We asians don't like you calling our mothers that so how about you just take our word for it and stop instead of arguing that we're wrong to not like it?
 
URMD said:
I'm super confused. This person, with a 27 MCAT, an egyptian applying as an african american, got into a top medical school? URM status aside, with a 27 MCAT? how?
Click to expand...
This was about the Native American mentioned in the original post.

Also, to everyone blowing your tops about the dragon mother statement, is it really worth the effort to try and convince someone on an anonymous internet site that something is offensive? You probably don't know them in real life and chances are no matter how hard you try a post on the internet more than likely won't make any difference in how they view that term.
 
ChemEngMD said:
They aren't from the same culture. Black Africans and the people who came to colonize them or immigrated later do not have the same culture.
Click to expand...

Again, this interjects new rules into the hypothetical - you're assuming the white African doesn't have heritage that is identical to the heritage of the black African. It could be perfectly plausible that this white African happens to be of mixed heritage that resulted from the most recent marriage into the family (i.e. the marriage of his/her mother and father). Let's say father is black, from the same culture as everyone else in the state/province, and the mother is of some kind of caucasian descent. So assuming this, does the white-skinned applicant have a disadvantage? I'm trying to understand this way of thinking and where the lines are. Must both parents have black skin for this applicant to be considered "of true African descent?" If so, where do the people with mixed heritage land? Is there multi-cultured upbringing not valued as much as a "pure-bred" African, by adcom URM standards? To break it down: if one comes from a similar cultural upbringing (we can never say they'll be exactly the same, even between those of the same heritage, sure), but has a lighter skin color, are they supposed to be considered "less of a URM?" I'm trying to zone in on what is important here. I thought it was supposed to be cultural diversity, but I'm not sure if simple aesthetics really is as important as well.

ChemEngMD said:
That's like saying Native Americans, descendants of European colonists, and modern day Asian immigrants all share the same culture.
Click to expand...

Sure, if you're talking about, for example, an all-European family that just moved in to SA and comparing them to black SA residents that have lived there for generations. That wasn't what I was referring to, though.
 
I'm sorry that you're offended.

freemontie said:
It comes from this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Lady
And it has a very long history of being offensive.

Recently the POSSIBLY-positive aspects have been used when Yale law prof. Amy Chua used the term "Tiger Mom" to describe her parenting. But, "tell your dragon moms to cut y'all some slack" is insulting at worst and condescending at least. And you're getting really annoying by trying to defend it.

PS- Cudos for finding that "Dragon Mom" book by a Hispanic author. I'm sure you'll work hard to unearth the few other instances to back-up your point. I can find positive uses of the much more offensive n-word too. Keep going, Goro. Pro tip: We asians don't like you calling our mothers that so how about you just take our word for it and stop instead of arguing that we're wrong to not like it?
Click to expand...
 
Goro said:
I'm sorry that you're offended.
Click to expand...
Well I'm sorry for you to. And I'm sorry that you and LizzyM are adcoms that probably talk like that about Asian applicants regularly. If you're done arguing with me that I'm "missing the sarcasm or irony" or "misunderstanding" or being "politically correct"- then I'll drop it now. Obviously you're not interested in changing your opinion.
 
I'm Asian and am not offended by the terms Dragon Mother or Tiger Mother. I don't consider it racist and, as a child of immigrant parents, think of it as a positive. My mother could be described as a tiger mother when she was still here, and it would be an accurate description. I don't see any ill intent in LizzyM's posting. Sometimes a figure of speech is just a figure of speech. There's no need to be so sensitive about everything.
 
It can't be a racist comment, because tiger mothers are not exclusively Asian. Also, I've never seen this term as derogatory: quite the opposite. Your mother cares for your academic success and is willing to do anything to help you achieve your goals. How is this offensive, again?
 
StudyLater said:
It can't be a racist comment, because dragon moms are not exclusively Asian. Also, I've never seen this term as derogatory: quite the opposite. Your mother cares for your academic success and is willing to do anything to help you achieve your goals. How is this offensive, again?
Click to expand...
  • Can domineering and hyper-disciplining mothers increase academic performance? Yes.
  • Racially characterizing grown-up asians as having such dragon moms they need to ask to "cut them some slack" offensive? Yes.
  • Are we going to have some apologizers for LizzyM/goro on this thread saying they actually like the characterization? Yes.
  • Why do whites and others bend over backwards to rationalize this as OK? Because they stupidly think they have a right to stereotype asians in a way they wouldn't dare blacks if the stereotypes can be defended as positive in at least some ways.
 
Last edited:
StudyLater said:
It can't be a racist comment, because tiger mothers are not exclusively Asian. Also, I've never seen this term as derogatory: quite the opposite. Your mother cares for your academic success and is willing to do anything to help you achieve your goals. How is this offensive, again?
Click to expand...

Anything can be offensive if one is looking to be offended.
 
StudyLater said:
Again, this interjects new rules into the hypothetical - you're assuming the white African doesn't have heritage that is identical to the heritage of the black African. It could be perfectly plausible that this white African happens to be of mixed heritage that resulted from the most recent marriage into the family (i.e. the marriage of his/her mother and father). Let's say father is black, from the same culture as everyone else in the state/province, and the mother is of some kind of caucasian descent. So assuming this, does the white-skinned applicant have a disadvantage? I'm trying to understand this way of thinking and where the lines are. Must both parents have black skin for this applicant to be considered "of true African descent?" If so, where do the people with mixed heritage land? Is there multi-cultured upbringing not valued as much as a "pure-bred" African, by adcom URM standards? To break it down: if one comes from a similar cultural upbringing (we can never say they'll be exactly the same, even between those of the same heritage, sure), but has a lighter skin color, are they supposed to be considered "less of a URM?" I'm trying to zone in on what is important here. I thought it was supposed to be cultural diversity, but I'm not sure if simple aesthetics really is as important as well.



Sure, if you're talking about, for example, an all-European family that just moved in to SA and comparing them to black SA residents that have lived there for generations. That wasn't what I was referring to, though.
Click to expand...

If you were even remotely familiar with the history of Africa you would know that someone of "mixed heritage" would NOT be considered White in any African country. Take for instance South Africa where people of mixed origin were labeled "Coloured" during apartheid - which was a status that was not quite as bad as "Black" but much closer to that than it was to White.

Also, welcome to America where the "one drop rule" has been in effect for 300 years.

To put it bluntly for you: No, somebody does not need to be 100% African descent to be considered "Black" in America for any purpose. The majority of African-Americans in this country are anywhere from 40-85% Black (and that's not immediate past generation mixing but rather the course of 100s of years of slavery injecting non-African DNA into the gene pool).

People of mixed heritage are of course allowed and encouraged to put down all of their heritage (I checked 3 or 4 boxes for AMCAS), but they will know based upon how you have lived your life what community you relate to the most and that's what's important to ADCOMs. I consider myself tri-racial and bi-ethnic, but at the end of the day one of those ethnicities is the one I relate to and recognize the most. And my track record of advocating for this community, supporting this community, and living in this community shows that. They look for authenticity, not a certain level of melanin.
 
MrLogan13 said:
I'm not offended by your statement. I think the real irony is that you're accusing others of making racists statements, asking for an apology, and then go on to make a racist statement.
Click to expand...
OK, show me where I made a racist statement. According to you it was in this sentence:
Why do whites and others bend over backwards to rationalize this as OK? Because they stupidly think they have a right to stereotype asians in a way they wouldn't dare blacks if the stereotypes can be defended as positive in at least some ways.
Click to expand...

Is it the "white and others" part? That's meant to include everyone but asians since I assumed that no asian would want to use "dragon mother" in the context of a put-down on asian applicants.
 
freemontie said:
Well I'm sorry for you to. And I'm sorry that you and LizzyM are adcoms that probably talk like that about Asian applicants regularly. If you're done arguing with me that I'm "missing the sarcasm or irony" or "misunderstanding" or being "politically correct"- then I'll drop it now. Obviously you're not interested in changing your opinion.
Click to expand...
Lmaoo you can't be serious. "Talk like that about Asian applicants regularly"
 
freemontie said:
  • Can domineering and hyper-disciplining mothers increase academic performance? Yes.
  • Racially characterizing grown-up asians as having such mothers they need to ask to "cut them some slack" offensive? Yes.
  • Are we going to have some apologizers for LizzyM/goro on this thread saying they actually like the characterization? Yes.
  • Why do whites and others bend over backwards to rationalize this as OK? Because they stupidly think they have a right to stereotype asians in a way they wouldn't dare blacks if the stereotypes can be defended as positive in at least some ways.
Click to expand...

  • I suppose I agree. Wasn't my point that they increase success. It was my point that they care for their children and therefore being a "tiger mother" doesn't have to be viewed negatively.
  • This part I have trouble understanding. Anyone can joke with anyone who has an overbearing mother/father that way. It has nothing to do with Asians - really. I'd tell you if it was seen as an exclusively Asian thing by most Americans, but it just isn't.
  • People can like whatever they want, provided it is legal. It's pointless to tell people what they can and cannot like. I personally think it is a respectable thing to care about your child's education and push them to be the best they can be.
  • It's considered socially acceptable because it isn't racist. Actually, the one who seems to be focusing on race the most here is you. I honestly have no idea why. Tiger mothers can be Asian, but not all tiger mothers are Asian. Your understanding of basic logic should then indicate to you that the tiger mother gag isn't specifically focused on Asians.
  • The comment about black people is completely misplaced because it has nothing to do with what we're talking about (non-sequitur); the humor here isn't even of a racial nature. That said, I'm thinking you don't entirely understand certain subdivisions of American comedy. Particularly when talking about individuals of college age or younger, it is not uncommon for a group of friends (some white, some black, some Mexican/latino, some Asian, some arab, some whatever else) to joke about each other's race. Hell, it can even go into religion as well. The reason this is done, however, is not because these jokes are a manifestation of one's true opinions about race/religion/whatever else. The point is to poke fun at the ridiculous nature of actual racism/stereotyping of the races. In my opinion, it is the modern generation's way of responding to a history of pointless, racially-motivated bickering (much like the kind you're participating in here). So to answer that point, yes, some white people joke with their black friends about their race, and some black friends do the same to their white friends, but not with malicious intent. That's the main point you don't seem to understand.
As far as stereotyping, that happens with every race/religion. Asians are not unique in that respect.
 
freemontie said:
OK, show me where I made a racist statement. According to you it was in this sentence:


Is it the "white and others" part? That's meant to include everyone but asians since I assumed that no asian would want to use "dragon mother" in the context of a put-down on asian applicants.
Click to expand...

Yes, because you are applying your own over generalization to a whole group of people, which you have taken offense to when applied to Asians, and labeled it as racist. Yet you freely make such statements about "whites and others". I don't necessarily disagree with you about applying one stereotype to one group vs another, but you are doing it too.

Secondly, you would be incorrect in your assumption. I am Asian and grew up under a "dragon mother". I have used the term both positively and negatively, depending on the context. To me, it's merely descriptive of a certain parenting style. I have heard many children of immigrants use the term as well, and that may just reflect generational and regional differences. We were all the first to be born in the U.S.

We may disagree on this, and that's fine, but I think it's wholly unfair to attribute malice to LizzyM's post.
 
StudyLater said:
  • I suppose I agree. Wasn't my point that they increase success. It was my point that they care for their children and therefore being a "tiger mother" doesn't have to be viewed negatively.
  • This part I have trouble understanding. Anyone can joke with anyone who has an overbearing mother/father that way. It has nothing to do with Asians - really. I'd tell you if it was seen as an exclusively Asian thing by most Americans, but it just isn't.
  • People can like whatever they want, provided it is legal. It's pointless to tell people what they can and cannot like. I personally think it is a respectable thing to care about your child's education and push them to be the best they can be.
  • It's considered socially acceptable because it isn't racist. Actually, the one who seems to be focusing on race the most here is you. I honestly have no idea why. Tiger mothers can be Asian, but not all tiger mothers are Asian. Your understanding of basic logic should then indicate to you that the tiger mother gag isn't specifically focused on Asians.
  • The comment about black people is completely misplaced because it has nothing to do with what we're talking about (non-sequitur); the humor here isn't even of a racial nature. That said, I'm thinking you don't entirely understand certain subdivisions of American comedy. Particularly when talking about individuals of college age or younger, it is not uncommon for a group of friends (some white, some black, some Mexican/latino, some Asian, some arab, some whatever else) to joke about each other's race. Hell, it can even go into religion as well. The reason this is done, however, is not because these jokes are a manifestation of one's true opinions about race/religion/whatever else. The point is to poke fun at the ridiculous nature of actual racism/stereotyping of the races. In my opinion, it is the modern generation's way of responding to a history of pointless, racially-motivated bickering (much like the kind you're participating in here). So to answer that point, yes, some white people joke with their black friends about their race, and some black friends do the same to their white friends, but not with malicious intent. That's the main point you don't seem to understand.
As far as stereotyping, that happens with every race/religion. Asians are not unique in that respect.
Click to expand...
In one bullet point you're saying that it isn't necessarily race-based. In another you're saying it is but it isn't racist. In the last you are arguing that joking about race can be acceptable. Doesn't make sense. And the word was "dragon mother", first of all, not "tiger mom" which is a word that Amy Chua made later because she knows the very negative connotations of "dragon lady".

The statement also is obviously aimed at asians so keeping on arguing that it isn't is ridiculous. Full statement:
(hence the "Asian disadvanage", tell your Dragon Mothers to cut all y'all some slack).
Click to expand...
Am I supposed to be proud of my mom being a supposed "dragon mother" based in this context? Oh, thank you so much.
 
ChemEngMD said:
someone of "mixed heritage" would NOT be considered White in any African country.

To put it bluntly for you: No, somebody does not need to be 100% African descent to be considered "Black" in America for any purpose. The majority of African-Americans in this country are anywhere from 40-85% Black (and that's not immediate past generation mixing but rather the course of 100s of years of slavery injecting non-African DNA into the gene pool).
Click to expand...

I apologize for my ignorance on this matter (part of why I asked the question). I thought I understood what was considered an African-American (quite simply, an American with African heritage), until your comment that only black Africans were considered to be African-American. It just had me wondering about a case of an individual with the same sort of heritage, but that doesn't physically have dark skin, or even one with different heritage but that has lived in an African community from birth.

From your previous post, it sounded like you were saying non-black individuals, despite having African heritage, could not be considered African-American. But are non-black people from Africa , the "Arab, South Asian, or White people from Africa who put down African-American," really not considered African, despite having lived their lives in Africa? It sounds like telling someone they aren't American, despite having lived here all their life, because they aren't white, or something to that effect. Do you understand where I am coming from? If you live in a nation all your life, you should have experienced and lived that nation's culture to the fullest, no? How does that not make you a member of that culture, despite your previous heritage? For example, I'd call any second generation arab as American as myself; he/she speaks perfectly fluent english and understands American culture as well as I do. If there were an application to some college somewhere, and there was a checkbox for "American," why could that person not check that box? I suppose that is what I am asking. Perhaps our differences have been due to miscommunication; I hope you can understand what I'm really trying to ask, now.
 
freemontie said:
In one bullet point you're saying that it isn't necessarily race-based. In another you're saying it is but it isn't racist. In the last you are arguing that joking about race can be acceptable. Doesn't make sense. And the word was "dragon mother", first of all, not "tiger mom" which is a word that Amy Chua made later because she knows the very negative connotations of "dragon lady".

The statement also is obviously aimed at asians so keeping on arguing that it isn't is ridiculous. Full statement:
Am I supposed to be proud of my mom being a supposed "dragon mother" based in this context? Oh, thank you so much.
Click to expand...

Why are you such an unpleasant person?

See? No race involved. I just don't like you.
 
freemontie said:
In one bullet point you're saying that it isn't necessarily race-based. In another you're saying it is but it isn't racist.
Click to expand...

I'm assuming, with this "another," you're referring to the last bullet point; that'd be the one where I specifically say that your comment about black people is a complete non-sequitur because this has nothing to do with race. I went on to address that point, which is separate from the "dragon lady/tiger mom" discussion. I was telling you that there are certain people who joke about race, and that it isn't meant with ill intent. If, however, this "another" was referring to my fourth bullet, then I specifically said the joke is considered acceptable because it isn't racist. I'm not sure what you thought you read, there.

freemontie said:
In the last you are arguing that joking about race can be acceptable. Doesn't make sense.
Click to expand...

I was addressing your non-sequitur. You said something completely outside the scope of the argument, and I entertained it. Should I have ignored the point you were trying to make? Quite simply, you were saying that white people would never racially joke with african-americans. I was telling you A) this has nothing to with what we were talking about and B)some white people joke with some black people and vice versa all the time, and within a perfectly acceptable social context so neither party feels offended. Therefore, even if the point were to be considered, it has been invalidated because it was an incorrect assertion.

freemontie said:
And the word was "dragon mother", first of all, not "tiger mom" which is a word that Amy Chua made later because she knows the very negative connotations of "dragon lady".
Click to expand...

One in the same to me. If there's a big difference, then sure, let's say "dragon mother." Apparently dragons are far more offensive than tigers.

freemontie said:
The statement also is obviously aimed at asians so keeping on arguing that it isn't is ridiculous.
Click to expand...

Oh, it's definitely ridiculous. That's why it was meant in jest.

freemontie said:
Full statement:
(hence the "Asian disadvanage", tell your Dragon Mothers to cut all y'all some slack).
Am I supposed to be proud of my mom being a supposed "dragon mother" based in this context? Oh, thank you so much.
Click to expand...

You can do whatever you want, of course, but taking offense is just wasteful. The term "dragon mom" is not a derogatory term used exclusively to offend Asian mothers, as much as you might think it is.
 
StudyLater said:
I apologize for my ignorance on this matter (part of why I asked the question). I thought I understood what was considered an African-American (quite simply, an American with African heritage), until your comment that only black Africans were considered to be African-American. It just had me wondering about a case of an individual with the same sort of heritage, but that doesn't physically have dark skin, or even one with different heritage but that has lived in an African community from birth.

From your previous post, it sounded like you were saying non-black individuals, despite having African heritage, could not be considered African-American. But are non-black people from Africa , the "Arab, South Asian, or White people from Africa who put down African-American," really not considered African, despite having lived their lives in Africa? It sounds like telling someone they aren't American, despite having lived here all their life, because they aren't white, or something to that effect. Do you understand where I am coming from? If you live in a nation all your life, you should have experienced and lived that nation's culture to the fullest, no? How does that not make you a member of that culture, despite your previous heritage? For example, I'd call any second generation arab as American as myself; he/she speaks perfectly fluent english and understands American culture as well as I do. If there were an application to some college somewhere, and there was a checkbox for "American," why could that person not check that box? I suppose that is what I am asking. Perhaps our differences have been due to miscommunication; I hope you can understand what I'm really trying to ask, now.
Click to expand...

Okay I see where you're coming from and I think what you're missing is the historical context of the term African-American in our country.

What to call the descendants of slaves in the US has been a big question for a long time both within the overall American community and the Black community itself. Eliminating the 300 years of Black people only being called epithets, you get into an age where society tries to put a real, non-derogatory term on this group of people.

First came "Colored"
Then came "Negro"
Then came "Black"
Then came "African-American"
Maths: Colored=Negro=Black=African-American

Many Black people still prefer the term Black over African-American because of the exact flaw you've pointed out with the nomenclature: technically anyone born in Africa and then gaining American citizenship would be an "African-American" regardless of race.

BUT the reason why your White, Indian, Asian, etc. person who has lived in Africa is not African-American is because we use African-American to be synonymous with Black. Yes, they have some sort of roots in Africa but our definition of African-American IS Black.

That's why the Black Africans who come here get grouped into that demographic and others who come from Africa do not.

However, you will still find many Black Africans who do not like being called "Black" or "African-American" because they associate those terms with the descendants of slaves in the US. They prefer Nigerian-American, Ethiopian-American, etc. or even a specific tribal affiliation. But when filling out any sort of census or demographic survey, the category that fits them is Black/African-American and that is what they put.

That's my Africana Studies 101 for you. Hope it helps.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top