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[deleted765155]

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[Luka75]

As many of us start shifting over to the Medical Students forum, I would like all of us to leave behind one thing that we learned from SDN pre-allo that has helped us venture through the hell that is the application process. Hopefully, all of those following in our footsteps can reference this in the future to optimize their chances of achieving their dream. Keep it short and sweet so that it can easily be read through, aka no novellas.

Use the search function.

 

[Astra]

I've learned that asking questions like this will result in tons of witty replies with very few that are actually helpful.






on that note, here are some pro tips to help get into med school:

1. Start your EC's early. You NEED clinical volunteering, non clinical volunteering, shadowing, leadership to be competitive for med school

2. Take the easiest professors and easier classes. You want to keep your GPA as high as possible

3. If you have no interest in a particular major, take an easy major to get a high GPA. Adcoms will prefer your 3.9 in basket weaving over a 3.6 in thermonuclear physics

4. Try to keep your undergrad debt down. Med school is pretty expensive

5. Form professional relationships with professors early on. They will write your Letters of Rec and being friends with them makes this process easier

6. If you are planning on taking 1 gap year, you will be taking the MCAT your senior year. If you are planning on NOT taking a gap year, you will be taking the MCAT your junior year

7. When studying for the MCAT, use the SDN MCAT subforum and
https://www.reddit.com/r/Mcat/. You might be the smartest person in the world but proper study plans will help you score higher than blindly studying on your own.

8. When applying, get your letters of recommendation early. You don't want your primary application to be delayed.

9. To know how competitive you are for med school, use this table: https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/157998/factstablea24.html

10. Use the MSAR when applying to figure out what schools to apply to and post in the WAMC subforum on SDN.

11. Try to start research as a freshman. It will increase your chances of getting published and being published is a pretty rare in undergrad.

12. Use the search function

13. II = Interview Invite.

 

[RogueBanana]

1- There is such a thing as a dumb question. Use the search function.

2- All of this has happened before and all of it will happen again.

3- Non-clinical volunteering is actually pretty important

4- Buy the MSAR and make a targeted school list (preferably using @WedgeDawg's algorithm)

5- No matter how bad things are, sarcasm makes it better. @gyngyn @LizzyM

6- The SDN mods have a lot of patience.

7- Patience is a virtue, the need for instant gratification is not. @Goro

8-It isn't concluded until the mildly obese opera singer vocalizes melodically. @gonnif

9- No matter the question, the AAMC has data to answer it. @Lawper

10- You'll meet a lot of good friends and possibly future classmates on this site. @Healer@1994 @libertyyne

 

[Saifa]

Well, it didn't teach me that "an II" is an "interview invite" and not "a 2."

Might have just figured that out in the shower.

 

[Luka75]

1- There is such a thing as a dumb question. Use the search function.

2- All of this has happened before and all of it will happen again.

3- Non-clinical volunteering is actually pretty important

4- Buy the MSAR and make a targeted school list (preferably using @WedgeDawg's algorithm)

5- No matter how bad things are, sarcasm makes it better. @gyngyn @LizzyM

6- The SDN mods have a lot of patience.

7- Patience is a virtue, the need for instant gratification is not. @Goro

8-It isn't concluded until the mildly obese opera singer vocalizes melodically. @gonnif

9- No matter the question, the AAMC has data to answer it. @Lawper

10- You'll meet a lot of good friends and possibly future classmates on this site. @Healer@1994 @libertyyne

And as for research? not as important as most think.

 

[Luka75]

Well, it didn't teach me that "an II" is an "interview invite" and not "a 2."

Might have just figured that out in the shower.

Lmao, I came to that exact realization while SDNing on the toilet bowl...

 

[Astra]

All of this has happened before and all of it will happen again.

Someone's been watching Interstellar

 

[RogueBanana]

Someone's been watching Interstellar

nah I got it from a SDN user's sig

never seen the movie

 

[Astra]

nah I got it from a SDN user's sig

never seen the movie

wtf. go watch it asap. its a great movie

 

[Dr.Sticks]

3. If you have no interest in a particular major, take an easy major to get a high GPA. Adcoms will prefer your 3.9 in women's studies over a 3.6 in thermonuclear physics

Really? If I was an adcom I would look better at that 3.6, that guy or gal probably would get a 4.0 in women's studies.
Taking some of the toughest classes on campus and getting a 3.6 is fantastic.

EC and MCAT similar I got 1 spot left I would admit the applicant with a 3.6

I'm a pre-med though... So I might be looking at this the wrong way.

 

[Luka75]

i didn't realize how important a solid school list was in getting enough IIs until very recently. Pretty much every thread about "why have I not been accepted" by stellar applicants has been because of too top heavy of a school list or not enough schools in general.

Hence why I'm grateful for the @Goro 's on here.

 

[Lucca]

Really? If I was an adcom I would look better at that 3.6, that guy or gal probably would get a 4.0 in women's studies.
Taking some of the toughest classes on campus and getting a 3.6 is fantastic.

EC and MCAT similar I got 1 spot left I would admit the applicant with a 3.6

I'm a pre-med though... So I might be looking at this the wrong way.

1. There's no way to really understand what a GPA is without an MCAT. If the 3.6 in nuclear physics is truly more prepared for medical school academics than the 3.9 LA major, then you would expect a 3.6/40 and a 3.9/30 or something to that effect. Sometimes you see that, sometimes you don't.

2. Imagine the nightmarish world where adcoms cared about majors and engineering, physics, mathematics and chemistry departments are filled with people who have no actual interest in continuing on in those disciplines (Doubly bad for engineering since technically those degrees are the equivalent of professional school). Second, imagine a world where people who would become excellent doctors and are capable of acing science classes but want to get more out of their undergraduate experience than learning about a couple of science subjects would be forced to be miserable in a science major or take the "ding" to their application. It's a bad place. The way we do it is fine.

 

[freak7]

As many of us start shifting over to the Medical Students forum, I would like all of us to leave behind one thing that we learned from SDN pre-allo that has helped us venture through the hell that is the application process. Hopefully, all of those following in our footsteps can reference this in the future to optimize their chances of achieving their dream. Keep it short and sweet so that it can easily be read through, aka no novellas.

I've learned that medical students are still neurotic enough to find you on SDN and tell you to change your profile pic, @Huggy

 

[redsox93]

Most important thing I've learned from this site was during my MCAT studies. Its way more important to do practice tests and practice problems than it is to do strictly content review. The first time I took the MCAT I relied solely on content review and only took 2 or 3 practice tests. When I studied for the new one I did a practice test every week as well as a bunch of practice passages in between. The MCAT forum was helpful for knowing which tests were the best/most accurate.

 

[efle]

Agreed

As a former adcom, I am astounded by the number of students on SDN who work so hard at grades and research for 3-4 years but havent once looked at, much less read any information from the most accurate sources of mostly free information on the issues that would give them tremendous guidance

medical school websites
AMCAS instructions
AMCAS website/tutorials
MSAR (not free but should be considered the textbook for the course on applying to medical school)

Except listening to the AAMC information about MCAT scores (what is good enough and that you can't convert to the old system) and looking at the MSAR applicant ranges is a recipe for a disaster cycle!

1. Here's no way to really understand what a GPA is without an MCAT. If the 3.6 in nuclear physics is truly more prepared for medical school academics than the 3.9 LA major, then you would expect a 3.6/40 and a 3.9/30 or something to that effect. Sometimes you see that, sometimes you don't.

And beyond major, GPAs meaning very different things at different colleges

2. Imagine the nightmarish world where adcoms cared about majors and engineering, physics, mathematics and chemistry departments are filled with people who have no actual interest in continuing on in those disciplines (Doubly bad for engineering since technically those degrees are the equivalent of professional school).

You mean like the nightmarish world of bio departments!!

Things I've learned that I haven't seen yet:

• Go in expecting nothing, because this process is hella odd and surprising at times. You likely will get in after what you thought was a terrible interview, or get rejected after what you thought was a great interview, or get skipped by some schools you think are great fits yet get love from places you never expected to even interview. You get the idea.

• What matters for getting in varies a ton on the schools you're applying to. Stats, research, etc don't have the same amount of appeal everywhere.

• On a slightly negative note, at the end of all this process and time here, I remain convinced it's a giant Premed Game where certain things (taking only easy classes, lame volunteering where you mostly sit around, lame research where you aren't designing/planning anything, etc) are not easily spotted on paper or in interview and do help you get in.

 

[Luka75]

Most important thing I've learned from this site was during my MCAT studies. Its way more important to do practice tests and practice problems than it is to do strictly content review. The first time I took the MCAT I relied solely on content review and only took 2 or 3 practice tests. When I studied for the new one I did a practice test every week as well as a bunch of practice passages in between. The MCAT forum was helpful for knowing which tests were the best/most accurate.

+1

 

[On_The_Way_Up]

Well, it didn't teach me that "an II" is an "interview invite" and not "a 2."

Might have just figured that out in the shower.

Figured that out while making out with my girl friend.

 

[efle]

Figured that out while making out with my girl friend.

Did you ask her if you could hit II base or something and suddenly it clicked

 

[Knicks17]

Sdn has guided me better than some of my professors and pre health advisors

 

[Dr.Sticks]

1. There's no way to really understand what a GPA is without an MCAT. If the 3.6 in nuclear physics is truly more prepared for medical school academics than the 3.9 LA major, then you would expect a 3.6/40 and a 3.9/30 or something to that effect. Sometimes you see that, sometimes you don't.

2. Imagine the nightmarish world where adcoms cared about majors and engineering, physics, mathematics and chemistry departments are filled with people who have no actual interest in continuing on in those disciplines (Doubly bad for engineering since technically those degrees are the equivalent of professional school). Second, imagine a world where people who would become excellent doctors and are capable of acing science classes but want to get more out of their undergraduate experience than learning about a couple of science subjects would be forced to be miserable in a science major or take the "ding" to their application. It's a bad place. The way we do it is fine.

You have a point; but can you honestly say that a 3.6 student in nuclear physics can't handle med school as well as a 3.9 in women's studies?
Also if adcoms don't care about taking easy shortcuts and some easy fluff major, why do they look down on CC course work? Sumemr course work?
Seems to me there is a double standard..

 

[Gurkhali]

If

Did you ask her if you could hit II base or something and suddenly it clicked

He's anything like me, the thought of an interview invite definitely helps get it up.

 

[Lucca]

You have a point; but can you honestly say that a 3.6 student in nuclear physics can't handle med school as well as a 3.9 in women's studies?
Also if adcoms don't care about taking easy shortcuts and some easy fluff major, why do they look down on CC course work? Sumemr course work?
Seems to me there is a double standard..

Your interpretation of "easy" and "fluff" coursework is different from an adcoms. Course difficulty and quality will vary from institution to institution and, as u might have noticed, even from professor to professor. Going to a 4 year university and paying EXTRA tuition to take a class at a CC concurrently has only one interpretation: You went out of ur way to avoid taking a difficult course at your uni for the sake of your GPA. Hate the game, not the player, everybody gets it but dont be surprised if it causes some eyes to roll at the adcom meeting. That is not anywhere near the same thing as taking non-science coursework because you are interested in it and enjoy it. As a humanities major, I guarantee you that getting in A in some humanities courses is far harder than getting an A in some science courses. I promise you that is true at every university ever. Majoring in Philosophy, Sociology or Economics at UChicago, to give a third type of example, is not the same thing as majoring in those subjects at Directional State - Satellite Campus either.

On top of that, everyone takes the same pre-requisite science courses which amounts to like half of a science degree at this point.

Also, if a LA major scores in the 95 %ile on the MCAT and a science major scores in the 80th, I'd bet on the LA major doing better in preclinical coursework and step exams everytime because that is actually what the data shows is true. MCAT is way stronger a predictor than GPA.

 

[Lawpy]

Well, it didn't teach me that "an II" is an "interview invite" and not "a 2."

I'm actually very confused as to how people on SDN started equating II = secondary since that never made any sense to me. No one uses Roman numerals so i don't know where the idea II = secondary came from, and why people were getting confused.

 

[Astra]

"Here we have Creighton Jesus desperately trying to save a patient's life after he accidentally turned their blood into wine."

 

[Astra]

Just to add/reiterate since virtually all applicants will have grades for intro bio/lab, intro chem/lab, advanced bio/lab, organic-biochem/lab, physics/lab, math/stats, as well as MCAT, there is a sufficient baseline for a reasonable academic evaluation across candidates no matter the major

Oh I get that. But for example at my school, I didn't pick a major until after I finished my prereqs and my advisor told me that I could either take a classes related to biology or a classes related to chemistry. The biology classes were much easier than the chem classes and I avoided the risk of lowering my GPA. Some people might think "Hey, if I take these chem classes that are tough, adcoms will still be impressed even if I get a B/C compared to getting all A's in bio" which is wrong.

Acing those extra classes could be the difference between a 3.6 and a 3.8 , which is why I posted that incase there are freshmen who don't really have a preference for a major and just wanna maximize their chances at getting a high GPA.

 

[redsox93]

.

 

[Lawpy]

Oh, I agree with you. Perhaps the myth to be cleared up here is:

Adcoms will not be impressed by the perceived rigor of the course or the material attempted. They will only be impressed with success in those courses

So would a 3.8 in biochem be more impressive than a 3.8 in women's studies assuming they have the BCPM GPA? I get that a lower GPA in biochem wouldn't be viewed as more impressive, but what if the GPAs were the same?

I'm willing to argue there is no way to objectively compare the rigors between courses, majors, areas of study etc.

It is possible to objectively compare rigors between universities due to differences in undergrad selectivity.

 

[Luka75]

I'm willing to argue there is no way to objectively compare the rigors between courses, majors, areas of study etc.

It is possible to objectively compare rigors between universities due to differences in undergrad selectivity.

as well as the rate of graduation maybe?

 

[redsox93]

I'm willing to argue there is no way to objectively compare the rigors between courses, majors, areas of study etc.

It is possible to objectively compare rigors between universities due to differences in undergrad selectivity.

Well this makes me wish I would've majored in like Journalism or something I was actually interested in haha. But at least my major helped with the MCAT

 

[Lawpy]

as well as the rate of graduation maybe?

yep. there are several quantifiable metrics that can be used for objective comparisons.

Well this makes me wish I would've majored in like Journalism or something I was actually interested in haha. But at least my major helped with the MCAT

yeah this is why some people recommend majoring in something easy and use the free time to build very strong ECs and study/crush the MCAT.

 

[Dr.Sticks]

There are three "myths" or misunderstandings in the above that premeds should be aware of

1) Assumptions of what is the relative difficulty of majors and that performance of an applicant in that major is a reflection of the major and not the academic ability of the applicant This assumes say, a Biochem major is so much harder that a Woman's Study major that is requires significant weighting during evaluation. The 4.0 women's study major may be so brilliant that may have gotten 4.0 in any major or that a 3.6 Biochem major was working at the top of their academic ability and would not get any higher in any other major. I have seen brilliant math and physics majors unable to handle say basic chemistry or political science or that a biochem major has difficulty in physics.

2) A corollary to the above is that the baseline BCPM all candidate should be adjusted by major of candidate. Since virtually all applicants will have grades for intro bio/lab, intro chem/lab, advanced bio/lab, organic-biochem/lab, physics/lab, math/stats, there is a sufficient baseline for a reasonable evaluation across candidates. In the example in item #1, 4.0 woman's study major may have 3.8 BCPM while the Biochem major may have a 3.7 BCPM. Again, applicants will say that the non-science major had an easier time with overall courses,etc, An adcom will not take that into any consideration.

3) The evaluation of applicants is done independently (ie applicants are not directly compared) and that a full evaluation across all items and factors (ie primary, secondary, MCAT, LOR) will be summarized into a score/grading/classification for each applicant. This becomes the "priority" score for each applicant and dictates II and, when interviewed, review by adcom.

I reckon I should take a lot of fluff classes now over summer lol..

 

[Lawpy]

Which is why the AAMC 2013 survey* of medical admissions found that private medical schools consider selectivity of undergraduate institutions as a factor of highest importance for interview invites and offers of admission, while public institution consider state residency. This is the most notable difference in private versus public medical schools. It should be noted the AAMC 2015 survey** found the selectivity of undergraduate institution was of low importance to both public and private schools.


*https://www.aamc.org/download/434596/data/usingmcatdata2016.pdf
see page 3 (pdf p7) Table 1. Mean Importance Ratings of Academic, Experiential, and Demographic Application Data Used by Admissions Committees for Making Decisions about Which Applicants to Receive an Interview Invitation and Offer Acceptance (N=127)


**https://www.aamc.org/download/462316/data/2017mcatguide.pdf
see page 4: Table 1. Mean Importance Ratings of Academic, Experiential, Demographic, and Interview Data Used by Admissions Committees for Making Decisions about Which Applicants Receive Interview Invitations and Acceptance Offers (N=130)

Why did the 2015 survey merge the private and public medical school categories?

 

[bears1992]

You have a point; but can you honestly say that a 3.6 student in nuclear physics can't handle med school as well as a 3.9 in women's studies?
Also if adcoms don't care about taking easy shortcuts and some easy fluff major, why do they look down on CC course work? Sumemr course work?
Seems to me there is a double standard..

I think a big part of the picture is a 4.0 basket weaving major is going to boost a schools matriculate stats and a 3.6 nuclear physics major is going to lower them. Both majors have a very high chance of success in med schools so I understand why they would choose the one that would help their stats.

As for GPA comparisons, I completely agree that GPA can be misleading. I did a 3.51 at a small engineering school but I met students with sub 3.2s from larger engineering schools that were much smarter and harder working than I was. My wife's roommates in college were elementary education majors that had 3.8+gpas and all they did was party throughout college and max out their parents credit cards. Never seen any of them do anything school related besides go to class. Pretty dumb that my wife's roommates would have GPAs worthy of Harvard while I and most other science majors wouldn't even meet their cutoff but it's just how the admissions process works. If you have 5000+ applications, you don't have time to "adjust" everyone's GPA to put them all on a level playing field.

 

[Dagrimsta1]

SDN taught me its better to be unique than a 4.0 robot machine. Hence smoke weed everyday

 

[efle]

It should be noted research/lab also collapsed to only one entry under medium importance, while in the prior survey there was difference between private (medium importance) and public (lower importance)

My guess is stuff narrowly misses significance some years, and in a 2017 survey we might see one or the other broken up again

 

[Dr.Sticks]

Summer class are perceived as less rigorous and should be avoided

http://www.upstate.edu/com/admissions/faqs.php
Applicants should avoid taking more than one or two prerequisite science courses during the summer and avoid taking them at community colleges.

Can I take my electives in summer and be okay?
I was considering taking 12 credits each summer..
8 this summer

I think a big part of the picture is a 4.0 basket weaving major is going to boost a schools matriculate stats and a 3.6 nuclear physics major is going to lower them. Both majors have a very high chance of success in med schools so I understand why they would choose the one that would help their stats.

As for GPA comparisons, I completely agree that GPA can be misleading. I did a 3.51 at a small engineering school but I met students with sub 3.2s from larger engineering schools that were much smarter and harder working than I was. My wife's roommates in college were elementary education majors that had 3.8+gpas and all they did was party throughout college and max out their parents credit cards. Never seen any of them do anything school related besides go to class. Pretty dumb that my wife's roommates would have GPAs worthy of Harvard while I and most other science majors wouldn't even meet their cutoff but it's just how the admissions process works. If you have 5000+ applications, you don't have time to "adjust" everyone's GPA to put them all on a level playing field.

Time to double major in elementary education!!!

 

[efle]

SDN taught me its better to be unique than a 4.0 robot machine. Hence smoke weed everyday

Your jokes will kill at interviews

Summer class are perceived as less rigorous and should be avoided

http://www.upstate.edu/com/admissions/faqs.php
Applicants should avoid taking more than one or two prerequisite science courses during the summer and avoid taking them at community colleges.

I'm surprised that summer classes keep getting lumped with CC in this thread. Summer prereq I took was identical as far as I could see to what my roomies did during the semesters. Just faster pace

 

[leagueofDravenMD]

sdn has me alot about the application process, but it has also taught me how negative people can be over the internet and how wrong they can sometimes be as well.

 

[Dr.Sticks]

Your jokes will kill at interviews


I'm surprised that summer classes keep getting lumped with CC in this thread. Summer prereq I took was identical as far as I could see to what my roomies did during the semesters. Just faster pace

Yeah
Plus some schools have a long summer course where you start in May and end in August (I think 12 weeks or maybe it was 15)

 

[Dagrimsta1]

Your jokes will kill at interviews

"I wanna become a doctor because of the movie Patch Adams."

 

[McRibs]

Summer class are perceived as less rigorous and should be avoided

http://www.upstate.edu/com/admissions/faqs.php
Applicants should avoid taking more than one or two prerequisite science courses during the summer and avoid taking them at community colleges.

This really puts a damper on my plans.

But, I'm glad I read this before summer begins.

Time to go drop summer CC gen chem I.

 

[Mad Jack]

I'll give you some advice.

The search function is garbage.

Use Google instead, with site:studentdoctor.net added to the end of your question. Google also allows you to search by date so you only get fresh threads.

 

[McRibs]

If you are only taking a single sequence, it really wont have an impact. But, it must be taken in context with the rest of your application

I am overcoming a failed attempt at an accounting degree from 9 years ago.

Non traditional Texas resident going to invoke fresh start when I transfer to Uni from cc.

I already aced bio 1 over the summer at cc.

With that in mind, summer gen chem 1 at cc or no?

Sent from my Pixel using SDN mobile

 

[partypantss]

Really? If I was an adcom I would look better at that 3.6, that guy or gal probably would get a 4.0 in women's studies.
Taking some of the toughest classes on campus and getting a 3.6 is fantastic.

EC and MCAT similar I got 1 spot left I would admit the applicant with a 3.6

I'm a pre-med though... So I might be looking at this the wrong way.

I think you ARE looking at it the wrong way. There's just way too much data for ADCOMs to comb through individual majors and individual schools and look at how they did in random unrelated classes.. Do well on the prerequisites and get a high overall/ science GPA. Those things are >>>>>>>>what your major is. Plus, more and more schools are valuing the non-STEM majors like people in the social sciences/ arts since it creates a more well rounded individual. A 3.6 Engineer is going to be in a worse position than a 4.0 history major. The MCAT will reveal who can and cannot crack it.

 

[Mad Jack]

Really? If I was an adcom I would look better at that 3.6, that guy or gal probably would get a 4.0 in women's studies.
Taking some of the toughest classes on campus and getting a 3.6 is fantastic.

EC and MCAT similar I got 1 spot left I would admit the applicant with a 3.6

I'm a pre-med though... So I might be looking at this the wrong way.

The one with the lower GPA might never get to the interview due to the way applications are processed at some schools. You can only choose between what actually makes its way in front of you.

 

[efle]

The one with the lower GPA might never get to the interview due to the way applications are processed at some schools. You can only choose between what actually makes its way in front of you.

Bruh where the heck is a 3.6 going to get screened ?

 

[efle]

Really? If I was an adcom I would look better at that 3.6, that guy or gal probably would get a 4.0 in women's studies.
Taking some of the toughest classes on campus and getting a 3.6 is fantastic.

EC and MCAT similar I got 1 spot left I would admit the applicant with a 3.6

I'm a pre-med though... So I might be looking at this the wrong way.

Dude have you taken upper level classes in humanities ? It's a totally different set of abilities, someone that is a damn genius in physics might not be able to write a good philosophy paper to save their life

 

[Mad Jack]

Bruh where the heck is a 3.6 going to get screened ?

It isn't getting hard screened, it's just not going to be at the top of the pile. whereas that 4.0 in basketweaving very well could be. They'll get in before the 3.6 even has a chance to directly compete, depending on how applications are prioritized.

 

[Dr.Sticks]

Dude have you taken upper level classes in humanities ? It's a totally different set of abilities, someone that is a damn genius in physics might not be able to write a good philosophy paper to save their life

Not yet
I might
I probably would ace it though, I do really well in classes where I have to have a very high reading/analysis ability.