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BU Medical Sciences
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Twice in your post you illustrated the exact problem adcoms will have when reviewing your application:
hotblaza said:
due to unfortunately being caught providing/recieving answers to a test
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hotblaza said:
I feel like **** that I have been caught doing this.
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You may call this semantics, I call it a Freudian slip. As long as you feel worse about being caught than you do about being a cheater in the first place, you'll have a very hard time convincing admissions committees that your repentance and reformation are genuine. Do some real soul-searching here. The problem isn't having been caught, it's lacking integrity.

hotblaza said:
Ill still have to explain the failure grade
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No, you'll have to explain having had an institutional action taken against you. The AAMC requires that you report all IAs, even if some institutional policy keeps them from appearing on your transcript. The relevant passage (found at Sections 1-3 of the AMCAS® application: Your Background Information):
Institutional Action: Medical schools need to know if you were ever the recipient of any institutional action resulting from unacceptable academic performance or a conduct violation, even if such action did not interrupt your enrollment, require you to withdraw, or does not appear on your official transcripts due to institutional policy or personal petition.
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Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but I believe your medical aspirations are on hold for the foreseeable future. If you want to have any hope of resurrecting them, you'll need to convince adcoms that you truly are a different man than the one who cheated. That's going to require years of work in the most altruistic way possible. You need to start by learning that the problem isn't that you were caught -- it's that you cheated in the first place.
 
You're a sophomore, so there will be plenty of time between this incident and your application to show maturation. That being said, this was not a mistake. This was a choice to cheat. You don't make a mistake when you buy a lottery ticket and get nothing. You made a choice to buy one. A mistake is not being aware of the rules and/or consequences. You knew the consequences if you were caught because every professor has the consequences on their syllabus and you still did it. I understand people can write things in the wrong way when they are panicking, but I really do think that 3.9 was not honestly earned.

Frankly, you sound like you would have continued cheating if you hadn't been caught. Imagine what would happen if a patient received substandard care under you because you felt like taking a shortcut and they died. In healthcare, people's lives depend on you doing your duties to the fullest.

Just out of curiosity, if an institution's Student Conduct office deletes an offense after a certain amount of time has passed, is there any way for medical schools to find out about it? If you contact your Student Conduct and they say your record is clean, even if it is because they have deleted an offense because a set amount of time passed as per policy, can you answer "no"? The IA said you have to mention it if it has been deleted from your transcripts, you have to say "yes", but nothing of Student Conduct. Just purely theoretical.
 
Just realized you cross-posted this in the WAMC subforum. Big problem: on this thread, you said:
hotblaza said:
I am never going to try and cheat on an exam ever again
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Then on the other thread, you said:
hotblaza said:
the kid next to me had his phone out and I ended up looking down getting distracted by it periodically and I was caught under suspicion for having my phone out and they charged me with it anyway
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(That second quote is making my BS detector go off like crazy.) You admitted to cheating here and said you learned your lesson, and you dodged any culpability in the other thread. Well, which is it?!

Dude -- you're not even being truthful on an anonymous forum where you're soliciting advice! Stop lying -- to your professors, to your university administrators, to SDN, and to yourself! You need to have the integrity to own up to the repeated dishonesty you've already demonstrated! Figure this out now or your medical dreams will stay on ice forever.

Your future isn't hopeless, but it just got a lot more uncertain. You need accept responsibility for your dishonesty and reform yourself into a paragon of virtue if you ever hope to convince a medical school to make you a doctor.
 
hotblaza said:
Thank you all I believe you all presented me with good advice, sorry for my discrepancies this event recently happened so I am still very stressed and worrysome I will receive the Failing grade which is my fault, cheating whether it be acquiring or giving answers is still cheating, I need to realize that if I hope to make it into medical school that I need to stop with the shortcuts. I was honestly just wondering if this would ruin my chances everywhere, I feel as though that nowhere would want me, even other graduate schools if I have something such as a violation of academic integrity associated with my name. Also to fix the discrepancies, regardless of how it went down I cheated and its my fault so I will accept the penalties and I need this to serve as a life lesson.
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I agree with my learned colleague HomeSkool. If your medical career isn't over, at the minimum it's in deep stasis. You need to lead an exemplary life for a few years, and preferably occupy positions of responsibility.

And OWN this.

The mindset you're up against from Adcoms is "Is this the type of person we want in our Class?" and also "Why should we take a risk on this kid when we have some many fine candidates who didn't cheat?"

And always have a Plan B.
 
If you end up being the 3.95 gpa and 505 MCAT along with an IA for cheating, people probably won’t believe your GPA was earned honestly.

If you crush the MCAT and do tons of public service activities, you have room to say you’ve changed and are now a different person. You’ll still get auto rejected at a good number of Schools with an IA for academic dishonesty.
 
hotblaza said:
The IA will not be on my transcript however I am going to report it on the actual application, I've been starting to plan on going on mission trips during my breaks and working on my EMT cert to work as a volunteer EMT for my school. I just hope that I wont be stuck out of everywhere in regards to either medical school or even nursing school.
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I have to imagine this will impact your chances at any graduate school regardless of the field. I recommend you read through this thread to get some more insight on the severity of your situation and what you must do to come back from it: Institutional Action - How bad is mine?. Even if the scenario and OP were fake, the insights provided by our resident adcoms are of great value.
 
hotblaza said:
Hey im a sophmore with a 3.9 GPA currently and I recently got charged with academic dishonesty in my biology class due to unfortunately being caught providing/recieving answers to a test so I received an F in the class. I do have an IA on my transcript but after one year of good standing it will be removed. I plan on retaking the class to get an A. Are my shots at med school destroyed now since Ill still have to explain the failure grade. I have fully learned from my mistake and I am never going to try and cheat on an exam ever again this is living hell and I feel like **** that I have been caught doing this.

If anyone could please help me that would be amazing, I feel as if its hopeless for me now that I have this with me, I don't know what I can even do with my future anymore...
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I'll take on the role of Mr. Optimistic in this thread!

I don't think you'll be barred from medical school, you did make a big mistake though. After a few years of no I.As, etc., a good explanation on the application, roles of leadership/responsibility, and decent stats, you should be able to get an acceptance somewhere. You would be nowhere near the first person to every get accepted to medical school with "cheating" on your record. Its not good, but redeemable.

Take a deep breathe, and keep fighting tooth and nail.
 
hotblaza said:
Hey im a sophmore with a 3.9 GPA currently and I recently got charged with academic dishonesty in my biology class due to unfortunately being caught providing/recieving answers to a test so I received an F in the class. I do have an IA on my transcript but after one year of good standing it will be removed. I plan on retaking the class to get an A. Are my shots at med school destroyed now since Ill still have to explain the failure grade. I have fully learned from my mistake and I am never going to try and cheat on an exam ever again this is living hell and I feel like **** that I have been caught doing this.

If anyone could please help me that would be amazing, I feel as if its hopeless for me now that I have this with me, I don't know what I can even do with my future anymore...
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A lot of that depends. How bad is the infraction? Did you provide/receive answers during the actual exam?
 
Robin-jay said:
I'll take on the role of Mr. Optimistic in this thread!

I don't think you'll be barred from medical school, you did make a big mistake though. After a few years of no I.As, etc., a good explanation on the application, roles of leadership/responsibility, and decent stats, you should be able to get an acceptance somewhere. You would be nowhere near the first person to every get accepted to medical school with "cheating" on your record. Its not good, but redeemable.

Take a deep breathe, and keep fighting tooth and nail.
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I would need to be convinced, and a few years with no IAs would not even begin to do it. That could just mean you didn't get caught again -- no real positive indicator that you didn't cheat again.

What would I like to see? A sea-change.

If you were to drop out of college and do a two-year stint in the Peace Corps or Americorps, join the military, work for a non-profit or go on a 6+ month mission for your church, that might indicate to me that you were shaken to your core and fundamentally changed. If you are from a culture that is known to be academically high-pressured (South or East Asian) I might be impressed by activities geared toward helping other students learn to cope with the intense parental pressures in healthy ways. A few years tutoring disadvantaged youth might impress me.

But if you don't miss a beat and go on with your life with no visible changes, then I wouldn't be convinced and I'd choose someone else.
 
DokterMom said:
I would need to be convinced, and a few years with no IAs would not even begin to do it. That could just mean you didn't get caught again -- no real positive indicator that you didn't cheat again.

What would I like to see? A sea-change.

If you were to drop out of college and do a two-year stint in the Peace Corps or Americorps, join the military, work for a non-profit or go on a 6+ month mission for your church, that might indicate to me that you were shaken to your core and fundamentally changed. If you are from a culture that is known to be academically high-pressured (South or East Asian) I might be impressed by activities geared toward helping other students learn to cope with the intense parental pressures in healthy ways. A few years tutoring disadvantaged youth might impress me.

But if you don't miss a beat and go on with your life with no visible changes, then I wouldn't be convinced and I'd choose someone else.
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I agree with you.

As far as redemption goes, that's for the ADCOMs to decide. I think your plan sounds fine. Peace Corps, etc.

Personally, I think:

1.) Staying out of any trouble is necessary (no I.A's, no misdemeanors, no felonies, etc.)
2.) Having a few years pass before applying to med. school
3.) Having leadership or responsible positions -- maybe the OP could go to a traditional graduate school or something and be responsible for grading tests, teaching courses, etc.
4.) More volunteering and community service than the average applicant
5.) Explain this well in his primary, secondary, and in-person interviews for medical school

OP, reach out to ADCOMs for your prospective schools and ask them what your future steps should be!
 
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Robin-jay said:
I agree with you.

As far as redemption goes, that's for the ADCOMs to decide. I think your plan sounds fine. Peace Corps, etc.

Personally, I think:

1.) Staying out of any trouble is necessary (no I.A's, no misdemeanors, no felonies, etc.)
2.) Having a few years pass before applying to med. school
3.) Having leadership or responsible positions -- maybe the OP could go to a traditional graduate school or something and be responsible for grading tests, teaching courses, etc.
4.) More volunteering and community service than the average applicant
5.) Explain this well in his primary, secondary, and in-person interviews for medical school

OP, reach out to ADCOMs for your prospective schools and ask them what your future steps should be!
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6) Always have a Plan B.
 
Question for any ADCOMS here! How likely (or unlikely) is it to get into med school with an IA on your resume? Let's say everything else checks out (research, clinical, service etc.) and you have good stats (Let's say like a LM 72 for example). Just curious.
 
MDPedigree said:
Question for any ADCOMS here! How likely (or unlikely) is it to get into med school with an IA on your resume? Let's say everything else checks out (research, clinical, service etc.) and you have good stats (Let's say like a LM 72 for example). Just curious.
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Not an ADCOM, but been around the block and worked with enough of them to know that it's going to depend on:

A) The reason for the IA (cheating/plagiarism vs. substance use vs. walking out of a cafeteria with some smoked salmon vs etc)
B) The people reading the transcript, as some will consider certain events more egregious than others and will look for a certain level of redemption/growth from the candidate
C) The events which occurred after the IA (do ADCOMs believe the applicant actually changed/isn't a high risk to repeat unethical behavior)
D) The rest of the application (does everything just "check out" or is this a rockstar applicant with one black mark)

There's no simple answer, but the bottom line is having an IA will decrease a person's chances at an acceptance. The degree to which those chances go down depends on the things listed above.
 
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So you have a 3.9? Did you cheat in your other classes?

If you're going to cheat, make sure it's like Bill Belichick...somewhat legal?
 
0744EAD9-D8F3-4C86-9707-8A896AF26A7D.jpeg


This is some Brian Williams level s#!t....
 
I
hotblaza said:
Thanks guys for the advice, one last question. So in entirety, my situation is that I was caught giving a kid next to me an answer and that is cheating. I do think Ive learned a lot from the event and as much as it sucks and I wish I could go back to change it, I also wouldnt just because I realize how big of a mindset change happened after all of this. Right now I had a 3.9ish GPA its going to drop to a 3.5ish gpa after the F in the class, the IA will stay for 365 days than be removed. I will also retake the class to improve my GPA and its also bio so I have to. Im going to continue working hard and try and do more volunteering and etc. What im asking lastly is do you think its more logical if I dropped my medschool goals completely and try for an Accelerated BSN program or gradschool (take GRE). I know the nursing application asks if I have ever had a academic infraction and also allows me to explain myself where Ill explain the F in bio, however, I dont know if nursing school or grad school is as hopeless as taking the MCAT and applying for medical school due to my situation.
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I mean I wouldn't drop it necessarily but understand that if I was an adcom I would take someone with lower stats than you with a clean record and I wouldn't give it a second thought. If you don't see yourself as anything else but a doctor go for it. It just may require one to two years of penance to get there.
 
hotblaza said:
The IA will not be on my transcript however I am going to report it on the actual application, I've been starting to plan on going on mission trips during my breaks and working on my EMT cert to work as a volunteer EMT for my school. I just hope that I wont be stuck out of everywhere in regards to either medical school or even nursing school.
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Don’t do mission trips to anyplace. ADCOMS can and do look at mission trips as voluntourism. Stay right here in the US and serve the underserved in your own community. There are thousands of people who can use your help every single day.
One thing you might investigate is seeing if your school has a program that focuses on institutional actions/cheating/ etc. for freshmen and new students. If not maybe you could develop one and speak to other students about your experiences and how you just might have torpedoed your medical aspirations.

But first you have to accept the fact that you knowingly cheated . Not just that you got caught.
 
MDPedigree said:
Question for any ADCOMS here! How likely (or unlikely) is it to get into med school with an IA on your resume? Let's say everything else checks out (research, clinical, service etc.) and you have good stats (Let's say like a LM 72 for example). Just curious.
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It depends upon the IA. At my school, cheating is DOA. Having beer or pot in the dorm, and even a DUI, we can understand, because we were young and stupid once too. But repeat offenses, and offenses that occur when you should be old enough to know better, can be lethal.
Crimes against persons or property we treat harshly as well.
 
Goro said:
It depends upon the IA. At my school, cheating is DOA. Having beer or pot in the dorm, and even a DUI, we can understand, because we were young and stupid once too. But repeat offenses, and offenses that occur when you should be old enough to know better, can be lethal.
Crimes against persons or property we treat harshly as well.
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A DUI as ok?

A cheating I.A. being D.O.A is fine, but no one ever died from cheating.
 
I'm going to get lampooned for this, but I'll play devil's advocate. If it gets expunged off your official transcript, and there's no record of it there or on any disciplinary or conduct record, you could get by without reporting it. Yes I'm aware that AMCAS policy is to list expunged offenses, which is effectively shooting yourself in the foot (expunged misdemeanors on the other hand interestingly enough, do not need to be reported).

Should you do this OP, and would it be the right thing to do? It would still be lying so in my opinion no, however I'm not in your shoes. But practically speaking it's an option to not get your app thrown out immediately.
 
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Dantes said:
I'm going to get lampooned for this, but I'll play devil's advocate. If it gets expunged off your official transcript, and there's no record of it there or on any disciplinary or conduct record, you could get by without reporting it. Yes I'm aware that AMCAS policy is to list expunged offenses, which is effectively shooting yourself in the foot (expunged misdemeanors on the other hand interestingly enough, do not need to be reported).

Should you do this OP, and would it be the right thing to do? It would still be lying so in my opinion no, however I'm not in your shoes. But practically speaking it's an option to not get your app thrown out immediately.
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The only issue with this is the time.

IA's can take up to 10 years to be expunged after the date of occurrence, or graduating (maybe depending on his university, could be less?).

So OP would have to be like 30 years old before applying to med. school, and would probably be in a "plan B" situation anyway.
 
hotblaza said:
I dont plan on doing this, however, my IA will be removed after 365 days of no other offenses.
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Ak ok. Ya, well the ball is in your court then. AMCAS/AACOMAS will require you to still report it.
 
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hotblaza said:
With all of this in mind, do you guys think I have a better chance of continuing to build up my application but switching over to the nursing side. I don't know if it would be the same difficulty but I feel as though my med school chances are ruined with this F on my transcript that I will have to explain. Should I begin to stray away from med school and would I at least have some chance at an accelerated BSN program? its always been my backup plan but I guess now It might become my main plan.
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Not only do you have to explain the F you have to say on your application that you had an IA.

I’m not sure nursing would be any more forgiving of an IA for cheating. But then again I’m not sure teaching or accounting or ... would be either.
 
HomeSkool said:
No, you'll have to explain having had an institutional action taken against you. The AAMC requires that you report all IAs, even if some institutional policy keeps them from appearing on your transcript. The relevant passage (found at Sections 1-3 of the AMCAS® application: Your Background Information):
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Reading this made me wonder: how would AAMC find out about an institutional action if its expunged? A person who cheated in the first place may not be inclined to disclose bad stuff about themselves if its just the honor system. Is there just the possibility that a letter-writer may mention this?

Robin-jay said:
I agree with you.

As far as redemption goes, that's for the ADCOMs to decide. I think your plan sounds fine. Peace Corps, etc.

Personally, I think:

1.) Staying out of any trouble is necessary (no I.A's, no misdemeanors, no felonies, etc.)
2.) Having a few years pass before applying to med. school
3.) Having leadership or responsible positions -- maybe the OP could go to a traditional graduate school or something and be responsible for grading tests, teaching courses, etc.
4.) More volunteering and community service than the average applicant
5.) Explain this well in his primary, secondary, and in-person interviews for medical school

OP, reach out to ADCOMs for your prospective schools and ask them what your future steps should be!
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For the sake of my own curiosity: you're a current student, or a med school instructor?
 
My school has rejected candidates when they were outed by LOR writers.

OP, your rejection rate will be 100 % if you never apply. Sometimes you have to apply with the app you have, warts and all.

ReapPremed said:
Reading this made me wonder: how would AAMC find out about an institutional action if its expunged? A person who cheated in the first place may not be inclined to disclose bad stuff about themselves if its just the honor system. Is there just the possibility that a letter-writer may mention this?



For the sake of my own curiosity: you're a current student, or a med school instructor?
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Goro said:
It depends upon the IA. At my school, cheating is DOA. Having beer or pot in the dorm, and even a DUI, we can understand, because we were young and stupid once too. But repeat offenses, and offenses that occur when you should be old enough to know better, can be lethal.
Crimes against persons or property we treat harshly as well.
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I dare you to make that comment in front of mixed company... I can't even find a thread of logic that doesn't lead to a dead end. Academic cheating > DUI?!?!? If an individual doesn't even value their own life, how are they supposed to value a patient's? Come on bruh!
 
ReapPremed said:
Reading this made me wonder: how would AAMC find out about an institutional action if its expunged? A person who cheated in the first place may not be inclined to disclose bad stuff about themselves if its just the honor system. Is there just the possibility that a letter-writer may mention this?



For the sake of my own curiosity: you're a current student, or a med school instructor?
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Student.

And to answer your former question, I don't think most places would find out about the IA when its expunged. I think its mostly honor code at that point. (Only LOR writers or so could blow that cover).
 
Goro said:
It depends upon the IA. At my school, cheating is DOA. Having beer or pot in the dorm, and even a DUI, we can understand, because we were young and stupid once too. But repeat offenses, and offenses that occur when you should be old enough to know better, can be lethal.
Crimes against persons or property we treat harshly as well.
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If it’s cheating, is it DOA at most schools to your knowledge?

Thanks for the response!
 
hotblaza said:
It would be however I dont think id be able to handle the guilt. Also Id still have to explain the F in the presence of all A's/B's, i mean i guess at best I could said I just messed up big time with studying but its wrong regardless.
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I respect your choice. Just saying it's an option on the table for you. Best of luck in your journey.
 
Robin-jay said:
Not trying to make an argument for cheaters. Making an argument against DUI drivers.
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When we old-timers were young and stupid, there was no Uber and virtually no public transportation. Private cars were pretty much the only transportation option. That certainly doesn't make it right, but makes it much harder to avoid. It was also before M.A.D.D. and a widespread attitudinal adjustment acknowledging the devastating harms of DUI. Back then, driving while mildly buzzed was viewed similarly to how smoking pot is viewed now -- illegal but 'everybody does it'... Times have changed.
 
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DokterMom said:
When we old-timers were young and stupid, there was no Uber and virtually no public transportation. Private cars were pretty much the only transportation option. That certainly doesn't make it right, but makes it much harder to avoid. It was also before M.A.D.D. and a widespread attitudinal adjustment acknowledging the devastating harms of DUI. Back then, driving while mildly buzzed was viewed similarly to how smoking pot is viewed now -- illegal but 'everybody does it'... Times have changed.
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You can make an argument that DUI's were harder to avoid back in the "old days", as you can also make an argument they were given out "less" and under "higher BAC" levels.

Times may have changed, attitudes may have changed, but the consequences didn't.

DUI consequences = fatal
Smoking pot consequences = non-fatal
 
OP...if you apply you absolutely report your IA. This has nothing to do with whether or not it hurts your application. It is more than that, it has to do with who you are as a person and your character. Have your integrity and take responsibility for a poor choice. Prove to the admissions teams you have grown and learned.
 
DokterMom said:
When we old-timers were young and stupid, there was no Uber and virtually no public transportation. Private cars were pretty much the only transportation option. That certainly doesn't make it right, but makes it much harder to avoid. It was also before M.A.D.D. and a widespread attitudinal adjustment acknowledging the devastating harms of DUI. Back then, driving while mildly buzzed was viewed similarly to how smoking pot is viewed now -- illegal but 'everybody does it'... Times have changed.
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Times have changed, and so should the expectations and consequences of receiving a DUI in the eyes of admissions committees. Other things that were acceptable 40-50 years ago when ADCOMs were young like using the N word or sexual misconduct would be at least auto-rejects today or far worse. Plus it's hypocritical for people to say they "take crimes against people and property very seriously" then turn around and say that DUIs can just be chalked up to being young and dumb. It's a BS double standard and the "young and stupid" excuse for a crime often worthy of jail time is absolute crap.
 
Robin-jay said:
DUI consequences = fatal
Smoking pot consequences = non-fatal
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I agree with you on the severity of DUI, but your logic here is flawed. It should look something more like this:

Drinking w/o driving: non-fatal
Weed w/o driving: non-fatal
DUI w/ either: fatal
 
HomeSkool said:
I agree with you on the severity of DUI, but your logic here is flawed. It should look something more like this:

Drinking w/o driving: non-fatal
Weed w/o driving: non-fatal
DUI w/ either: fatal
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I agree, but the direct comparison was DUI vs smoking pot (assumed not be driving).

I wasn't comparing underage drinking/public intoxication vs. smoking pot, where both would not be driving.

That would be different.
 
Robin-jay said:
I agree, but the direct comparison was DUI vs smoking pot (assumed not be driving).

I wasn't comparing underage drinking/public intoxication vs. smoking pot, where both would not be driving.

That would be different.
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I know, and I'm right with you. I personally believe we should be moving the needle on things since times have changed. I don't agree with smoking pot or underage drinking, but I do think DUI -- regardless of the intoxicant -- should be treated more seriously than either of those things in the privacy of one's own home.
 
HomeSkool said:
I know, and I'm right with you. I personally believe we should be moving the needle on things since times have changed. I don't agree with smoking pot or underage drinking, but I do think DUI -- regardless of the intoxicant -- should be treated more seriously than either of those things in the privacy of one's own home.
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I agree.

And so do 99% of workplace employers.
 
Robin-jay said:
Not trying to make an argument for cheaters. Making an argument against DUI drivers.
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I’m guessing it depends. A DUI because you were pushing your scooter with the key in the ignition is different than getting caught driving drunk.
 
HomeSkool said:
I know, and I'm right with you. I personally believe we should be moving the needle on things since times have changed. I don't agree with smoking pot or underage drinking, but I do think DUI -- regardless of the intoxicant -- should be treated more seriously than either of those things in the privacy of one's own home.
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I agree, but I’m guessing for a lot of people it depends. I would cut someone some slack if they got a DUI because they pushed their bike home but had the key in the ignition and got stopped by an dingus.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
I agree, but I’m guessing for a lot of people it depends. I would cut someone some slack if they got a DUI because they pushed their bike home but had the key in the ignition and got stopped by an dingus.
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I think all reasonable folks would agree there. I was referring specifically to driving while intoxicated.
 
HomeSkool said:
I think all reasonable folks would agree there. I was referring specifically to driving while intoxicated.
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Yeah, which is why I agreed with you. I have a shipmate who was almost killed by a drunk driver, my sister’s friend was killed by one, and I was hit by one when I was younger. I am extremely non-sympathetic.

Edited to be super clear.
 
HomeSkool said:
Dang, dude! Glad you're still with us.

I've had some cases in the OR where we were taking care of drunk drivers who had killed people that very night. It can be very emotionally straining.
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Yeah. I worked in the OR for 8 years as an OR tech and as a first assist. We got prisoners occasionally and once had an emergent case where the patient was a convicted murderer. Definitely a strange place to be.
 
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