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[Brother Gob]

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@Brother Gob, you are one of the most dishonest and morally bankrupt people I've ever seen posting on here. Your advice is, "If you get caught cheating, lie as much as possible and figure out any way you can to avoid taking responsibility for your actions, morality be damned." I'm completely sickened by your lack of conscience and integrity. God help anyone whose welfare depends on your character.

@hotblaza, there are ways to come back from your mistake and get into med school. You can actually learn a very hard lesson from this experience and emerge as a better person. It may cost you a few years of your life because that's the cost of cheating. If you do the right thing, I wish you nothing but success and a fruitful career. If you follow this sociopathic troll's advice, you deserve to get caught in the most humiliating and future-destroying way imaginable.

And to anyone reading Brother Gob's advice and liking what you see, his lack of morals is disgusting. He's exactly the kind of sociopath who harms others and lies about it. Exactly the kind of person we should be running out of medicine as fast as possible.

Lets break down the facts:
You can get behind a wheel stupid drunk, put the lives of other people, children, and families immediately at risk, and have a better chance of getting into Medical School than cheating on a homework assignment. You have a hyper competitive culture insinuated the moment a kid enters college, and once they crack under pressure in any way they aren’t even reviewed or considered. You’re honestly here telling me I’m the sociopath amidst all of this?

Now lets talk about the content I posted.
I don’t understand where you have the basis to question my morality when I even explicitly avoided talking about morality in a previous post @HomeSkool . I’m not here to tell you, OP, or anybody what to do in this situation. But I have a right to explain an alternative, break down the consequences, and a method to achieving it on the purposes of intellectual discussion. If you frankly can’t handle the possibility of someone not going the same route as you or peers had to achieve the same goals- you are in a moral bubble. There are worse crimes than cheating on an exam that should blacklist applicants that don’t. I’m not going to sit around and pretend about how cheating on a college exam is a crime equivalent to a DUI or felony. Thats unfair and frankly insulting to a lot of people who were potentially at risk due to some reckless drunk pre med, and others in similar situations.

I will not apologize for the statements I said earlier because frankly, I'm here to post alternatives, and inform the OP, not cater to some degree of hypocritical, toxic, and partially dogmatic form of moral absolutism.

I’m not a Sociopath- My level of compassion and priorities are different than yours.

 

[Robin-jay]

If comparing the two directly, I don't think I could ever understand how possibly taking someones life could ever compare with cheating on an exam.

The actual consequences:

Cheating on exam - earning unfair exam grade
DUI - risking a persons life

The possible implications:

Cheating on exam - possibly becoming dishonest physician causing people to die
DUI - person possibly dies

Cheating is among the most severe, and rightfully so, but the punishment needs to fit the crime.

 

[Brother Gob]

If comparing the two directly, I don't think I could ever understand how possibly taking someones life could ever compare with cheating on exam.

The actual consequences:

Cheating on exam - earning unfair exam grade
DUI - risking a persons life

The possible implications:

Cheating on exam - possibly becoming dishonest physician
DUI - person possibly dies

Cheating is among the most severe, and rightfully so, but the punishment needs to fit the crime.

You made person singular on the DUI section- When in most cases it can be plural.

 

[HomeSkool]

You have a hyper competitive culture insinuated the moment a kid enters college, and once they crack under pressure in any way they aren’t even reviewed or considered.

Spoken like someone who truly has no clue about medical admissions and training. The theme of this thread has been that redemption is possible but challenging, as well it should be when there are thousands of excellent applicants who haven't cheated.

You’re honestly here telling me I’m the sociopath amidst all of this?

Yes, I am: you are a sociopath. And I'm glad one of us is being honest.

I don’t understand where you have the basis to question my morality when I even explicitly avoided talking about morality in a previous post @HomeSkool . I’m not here to tell you, OP, or anybody what to do in this situation. But I have a right to explain an alternative, break down the consequences, and a method to achieving it on the purposes of intellectual discussion.

Your behavior rises far beyond the level of explanation into the realm of advocacy and encouragement. For you to openly endorse such immorality and then say, "What me? I didn't do anything!" makes you a particularly brazen liar. (But hey, you just spent half a dozen posts proving that much.)

If you frankly can’t handle the possibility of someone not going the same route as you or peers had to achieve the same goals- you are in a moral bubble. There are worse crimes than cheating on an exam that should blacklist applicants that don’t. I’m not going to sit around and pretend about how cheating on a college exam is a crime equivalent to a DUI or felony. Thats unfair and frankly insulting to a lot of people who were potentially at risk due to some reckless drunk pre med, and others in similar situations.

Pointing out that the system's imperfect is no defense against unethical conduct.

I will not apologize for the statements I said earlier because frankly, I'm an immoral troll.

There, fixed that for you.

not cater to some degree of hypocritical, toxic, and partially dogmatic form of moral absolutism.

An implicit endorsement of moral relativism doesn't exactly strengthen your argument that you're not an unethical liar who I wouldn't trust within a mile of any of my patients. Moral relativism is just immorality masquerading as intellectualism.

I’m not a Sociopath-

Actually, you are -- by definition. Refer to my previous post and compare the definition of "sociopath" to your dishonest, conscienceless conduct.

My level of compassion and priorities are different than yours.

Clearly.

 

[Lawpy]

An implicit endorsement of moral relativism doesn't exactly strengthen your argument that you're not an unethical liar who I wouldn't trust within a mile of any of my patients. Moral relativism is just immorality masquerading as intellectualism.

Somehow this strangely reminds me of the following

And oddly this

 

[Brother Gob]

Spoken like someone who truly has no clue about medical admissions and training. The theme of this thread has been that redemption is possible but challenging, as well it should be when there are thousands of excellent applicants who haven't cheated.

Spoken like someone who is so far removed from the pre med culture and has no idea what college is like for those who are attempting to go to med school. Wrong, the theme is a student asking for advice. The theme you implied is one you imposed on the thread with your initial post.

Yes, I am: you are a sociopath. And I'm glad one of us is being honest.

Calling me a sociopath is pretty inappropriate for an intellectual discussion. However, it seems like this is more emotionally charging for you than intellectually.

Your behavior rises far beyond the level of explanation into the realm of advocacy and encouragement. For you to openly endorse such immorality and then say, "What me? I didn't do anything!" makes you a particularly brazen liar. (But hey, you just spent half a dozen posts proving that much.)

I did endorse speaking to the Dean, yes. I did endorse not speaking to the committee yet just in case this can be remediated. But in terms of spinning the story into your favor, which is your strongest argument for immoral conduct, I steered clear of discussion. Wrong again.

Pointing out that the system's imperfect is no defense against unethical conduct.

Of this I am going to re establish myself as the honest person you alluded to earlier by stating that yes, systemic imperfections is not a good alibi for unethical conduct. If I came across this way, then I am here to tell you again that my purposes was to inform, not to endorse. However, I understand that theres as strong possibility that I may have came across this way

There, fixed that for you.

Hit a nerve, huh?

An implicit endorsement of moral relativism doesn't exactly strengthen your argument that you're not an unethical liar who I wouldn't trust within a mile of any of my patients. Moral relativism is just immorality masquerading as intellectualism.

And moral absolutism is just dogmatic, ad hominem statements masquerading as "justice", with more emphasis on attacking the individual rather than the flaws in the argument.

Actually, you are -- by definition. Refer to my previous post and compare the definition of "sociopath" to your dishonest, conscienceless conduct.

You should re read your definition or understand what you're posting. Last time I checked, a sociopath lacks a conscious or compassion for others, when in my statement regarding DUIs I have clearly expressed empathy for victims in those circumstances.

Listen, I'm not here to engage in petty arguments about conduct. Theres a clear dispute here and little chance of mutual understanding. Rather than attacking my views as you have been doing the past hour, focus on the thread and continue giving OP your perspective.

 

[onyxbell]

Wrong, the theme is a student asking for advice.

To be 100% fair the student did ask for advice, just not only GOOD, APPLICABLE advice. So ultimately OP has to decide between which side to stick with.

But in terms of spinning the story into your favor, which is your strongest argument for immoral conduct, I steered clear of discussion.

I am sorry that your past experience etc have contained so much grime to cause you to lose faith in human sincerity and to resort to a default of spinning matters around to get by.

 

[VincentAdultman]

Spoken like someone who is so far removed from the pre med culture and has no idea what college is like for those who are attempting to go to med school. Wrong, the theme is a student asking for advice. The theme you implied is one you imposed on the thread with your initial post.



Calling me a sociopath is pretty inappropriate for an intellectual discussion. However, it seems like this is more emotionally charging for you than intellectually.




I did endorse speaking to the Dean, yes. I did endorse not speaking to the committee yet just in case this can be remediated. But in terms of spinning the story into your favor, which is your strongest argument for immoral conduct, I steered clear of discussion. Wrong again.



Of this I am going to re establish myself as the honest person you alluded to earlier by stating that yes, systemic imperfections is not a good alibi for unethical conduct. If I came across this way, then I am here to tell you again that my purposes was to inform, not to endorse. However, I understand that theres as strong possibility that I may have came across this way



Hit a nerve, huh?



And moral absolutism is just dogmatic, ad hominem statements masquerading as "justice", with more emphasis on attacking the individual rather than the flaws in the argument.



You should re read your definition or understand what you're posting. Last time I checked, a sociopath lacks a conscious or compassion for others, when in my statement regarding DUIs I have clearly expressed empathy for victims in those circumstances.

Listen, I'm not here to engage in petty arguments about conduct. Theres a clear dispute here and little chance of mutual understanding. Rather than attacking my views as you have been doing the past hour, focus on the thread and continue giving OP your perspective.

I disagree with every single thing you've posted in this thread. But I am a big fan of Will Arnett. So that's something right there.

 

[SterlingMaloryArcher]

If comparing the two directly, I don't think I could ever understand how possibly taking someones life could ever compare with cheating on an exam.

The actual consequences:

Cheating on exam - earning unfair exam grade
DUI - risking a persons life

The possible implications:

Cheating on exam - possibly becoming dishonest physician causing people to die
DUI - person possibly dies

Cheating is among the most severe, and rightfully so, but the punishment needs to fit the crime.

Doubt it.

I have no IA's and never cheated* but I've gotta say I think everyone here saying cheating in undergrad is a slippery slope is completely ridiculous and all of you are blowing it WAY out of proportion!

That said I can understand the apprehension to admit somebody with an IA when there's 100 identical applicants without an IA.

*Edit: Never cheated academically 😉 (But I'm sure that's a slippery slope too and my dating escapades will make me a dishonest physician.)

 

[calivianya]

My opinion is irrelevant, but for school admissions, I also think cheating is way more serious than a DUI, regardless of how that DUI turned out.

Cheating is a school problem.
DUIs are a real life problem.

Unless the student plans on getting drunk before the 8 AM class, driving the car straight into the auditorium, and mowing down his/her classmates during lecture, a DUI has nothing to do with academic performance. Should it be taken into account when investigating an applicant's personal moral character? Sure, we want good, upstanding, moral physicians, whatever... but we also want physicians who are going to make it through med school without getting expelled for cheating along the way.

 

[de Ribas]

My opinion is irrelevant, but for school admissions, I also think cheating is way more serious than a DUI, regardless of how that DUI turned out.

Cheating is a school problem.
DUIs are a real life problem.

Unless the student plans on getting drunk before the 8 AM class, driving the car straight into the auditorium, and mowing down his/her classmates during lecture, a DUI has nothing to do with academic performance. Should it be taken into account when investigating an applicant's personal moral character? Sure, we want good, upstanding, moral physicians, whatever... but we also want physicians who are going to make it through med school without getting expelled for cheating along the way.

I think med schools not only look from med school perspective but also take into account a candidate as a future physician.

 

[Goro]

I think med schools not only look from med school perspective but also take into account a candidate as a future physician.

We already do that. In fact, the latter is more important that former.

 

[de Ribas]

I was replying a post above who is saying that cheating is a school problem.

 

[Stagg737]

My opinion is irrelevant, but for school admissions, I also think cheating is way more serious than a DUI, regardless of how that DUI turned out.

Cheating is a school problem.
DUIs are a real life problem.

Unless the student plans on getting drunk before the 8 AM class, driving the car straight into the auditorium, and mowing down his/her classmates during lecture, a DUI has nothing to do with academic performance. Should it be taken into account when investigating an applicant's personal moral character? Sure, we want good, upstanding, moral physicians, whatever... but we also want physicians who are going to make it through med school without getting expelled for cheating along the way.

I want physicians who aren't going to commit a crime and lose their license before they finish residency. I also want physicians who aren't going to have substance abuse problems and potentially injure their patients. It blows my mind how many people here think cheating as a more serious offense than a DUI, especially given the logic some people are using to justify that argument.

I find it even more shocking that so many of of those downplaying the egregiousness of a DUI are in charge of deciding who gets into medical school, as it tells me that they are actually completely clueless regarding the implications of substance abuse and the level of co-morbidity with other personality problems and mental health issues. I'm honestly flabbergasted. Anyone arguing that cheating is worse because it implies "sociopathic tendencies", whether you're and ADCOM or not, needs to educate themselves about the incidence of sociopathic tendencies among those with substance abuse issues before giving further advice or considerations about whether the implications of cheating are worse than a DUI.

 

[MDPedigree]

This system is extremely flawed. I don't understand how there can be a way for someone to cheat and then have it removed from their record with a chance of no one finding out?! That's almost like saying people getting prison sentences removed from their record just because they "did their time". What the heck colleges of America. How can you say you are strongly against cheating if a cheater can just get it expunged from their record? I'm all for second chances, trust me, but someone should earn their second chance, not receive it because no one saw their slip-up.

 

[de Ribas]

DUIs don't necessarily mean the person has a substance abuse problem; it means that he/she showed bad judgment once. A pattern of DUIs is different, but assuming a single DUI means the person is an alcoholic/drug abuser/etc is a huge jump.

Having single DUI only means that one was caught only once, not made bad judgement once. They may have done many of those bad judgements.

DUIs don't necessarily mean the person has a substance abuse problem;

Same thing with Academic IA. One Academic IA for cheating doesn't necessarily mean one is full-time cheater. It could also mean that they cheated once or 100 times.

2 years ago I was rear ended by a drunk driver. He was smart enough to walk away from the scene leaving a car and all his possessions on the scene. He was not caught drunk. He will just get charged with hit-and-run. I bet it wasn't his first or last time doing this.

 

[Goro]

Just want to give a shout out to the mods for banning that immoral troll.

 

[Stagg737]

DUIs don't necessarily mean the person has a substance abuse problem; it means that he/she showed bad judgment once. A pattern of DUIs is different, but assuming a single DUI means the person is an alcoholic/drug abuser/etc is a huge jump. It's possible to make a bad decision once and get caught... unlikely, but still possible. The person also has the benefit of making the decision to drive/ride a bicycle/whatever with a mind-altering substance on board. I'd warrant most cheaters are stone cold sober when they make the decision to cheat.

Also, some of the best physicians that I've ever met in my life have mental health issues. I can tell you there would be thousands of people dead if not for one of my best friends, an intensivist, who not only has saved countless people in his work in the ICU but also pioneered the research program at a local teaching hospital for a particular chronic disease in his specialty, as well as started a free clinic for that specialty so impoverished patients with the disease could receive treatment. He's literally one of the best human beings I've ever met in my life... he also has a very full medicine cabinet for various mental health issues.

I bet that the thousands of people who are alive because of him, both in the ICU setting and with that chronic disease, appreciate the fact that he is a physician... regardless of whether his mental health issues mean someone like you would question his ability to practice medicine.

A few things in response to this:

1. You said "we also want physicians who are going to make it through med school without getting expelled for cheating along the way." Which means you're assuming they will be a repeat offender. The same is true for drunk driving. If you're going to make that argument for cheating, you must also make it for drunk driving. The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior, and substance abuse is not an exception, in fact it is even more of a solid rule than most other negative behaviors.

2. Cheating is something that essentially only directly affects the cheater, perhaps minimally the rest of the class if there's a curve. drunk driving frequently not only affects the driver, it literally kills other people. I've yet to meet an incidence of cheating that resulted in someone dying or being physically harmed. Additionally, they're both predictors of Cluster B behaviors, and people arguing that cheating is a sign of sociopathy need to also understand that drunk driving is also. So while you haven't, other people who have said that they "take crimes against other people and property seriously" or that they think cheating is a sign of antisocial behavior, and they need to appreciate those connections to drunk driving more.

3. There are many, many studies showing that individuals who get DUIs have alcohol abuse issues and that irresponsible behavior related to alcohol use is the norm for them, not the exception. So sure, maybe there's a person who gets drunk once, drives out of desperation/perceived necessity and just so happens to get caught; or a person who almost never drinks thinks they are okay but doesn't realize they aren't. However, that is the rare exception and most individuals who drive drunk or buzzed are not people who do it once or even rarely, it's relatively common for them, at least until they get caught. Even then, over 1/3 of people who receive a DUI will receive another one within 10 years of the first one, and that's only the people who get caught.

4. Mental health problems are a red flag for many ADCOMs. Not because they don't believe someone with mental health problems is incapable of becoming great a physician, but because medical school and residency are incredibly stressful times that last almost a decade and many people with mental health problems aren't able to maintain a healthy enough mindset to complete the process. I know numerous healthy people who developed depression or anxiety during medical school, and those already suffering from those conditions are seen as more likely to have an exacerbation of those problems and be unable to complete school. So it's not about questioning their ability to practice medicine, it's about their ability to even complete medical school or residency.

 

[bananafish94]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I must say I'm pretty surprised by those downplaying the severity of a DUI. I tend to think that cheating and drunk driving are both manifestations of the same very toxic line of thinking, with one having drastically more severe consequences than the other. Thinking that one is above the law/rules don't apply to them, feeling that their convenience/personal benefit trumps fairness and safety for others, etc. Neither one displays qualities I would want in a physician, the difference being that one results in getting a grade that you didn't earn, and the other one can result in injuring or killing innocent people.

 

[calivianya]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I must say I'm pretty surprised by those downplaying the severity of a DUI. I tend to think that cheating and drunk driving are both manifestations of the same very toxic line of thinking, with one having drastically more severe consequences than the other. Thinking that one is above the law/rules don't apply to them, feeling that their convenience/personal benefit trumps fairness and safety for others, etc. Neither one displays qualities I would want in a physician, the difference being that one results in getting a grade that you didn't earn, and the other one can result in injuring or killing innocent people.

I like the way you pointed out the same line of thinking between cheating and a DUI - I hadn't viewed the issue in this way before.

In general, you all make excellent points. It's interesting how different our views are (and how strong our opinions are on this matter), and as someone else stated, it underlines how important it is to have multiple people on an admissions committee to have the most unbiased view possible of med school candidates.

 

[Stagg737]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I must say I'm pretty surprised by those downplaying the severity of a DUI. I tend to think that cheating and drunk driving are both manifestations of the same very toxic line of thinking, with one having drastically more severe consequences than the other. Thinking that one is above the law/rules don't apply to them, feeling that their convenience/personal benefit trumps fairness and safety for others, etc. Neither one displays qualities I would want in a physician, the difference being that one results in getting a grade that you didn't earn, and the other one can result in injuring or killing innocent people.

I'm most surprised that the individuals in this thread downplaying DUIs seem to be almost exclusively ADCOMs. I'm honestly extremely disappointed in their lack of understanding of basic psychiatric/psychological concepts and how personality disorders/negative personality traits actually apply to future physicians.

 

[bananafish94]

I'm most surprised that the individuals in this thread downplaying DUIs seem to be almost exclusively ADCOMs. I'm honestly extremely disappointed in their lack of understanding of basic psychiatric/psychological concepts and how personality disorders/negative personality traits actually apply to future physicians.

It could be a generational thing. I think people in their 20s and 30s have grown up with an (in my opinion, justifiably) intense stigma against drunk drivers whereas people in their 40s and 50s or older may have accepted it as a more commonplace occurrence during their more formative years. All I know is that if I were making these kinds of decisions, I would judge somebody with a drunk driving charge pretty harshly.

 

[Stagg737]

It could be a generational thing. I think people in their 20s and 30s have grown up with an (in my opinion, justifiably) intense stigma against drunk drivers whereas people in their 40s and 50s or older may have accepted it as a more commonplace occurrence during their more formative years. All I know is that if I were making these kinds of decisions, I would judge somebody with a drunk driving charge pretty harshly.

That's the exact excuse (yes, it's an excuse), that those people downplaying DUI's in this thread have given. They've stated that since it wasn't a big deal for their generation, or even worse that they've done it themselves and can relate, that it's not that bad (compared to cheating). When I pointed that out, the response was "It's Christmas Eve, so let's just forget about this", which is a joke.

 

[Suprachiasmatik]

I know of a student who was caught cheating his senior year. One year later he was in medical school and is now a practicing dermatologist. When I heard of his academic dishonesty, I thought that his medical career aspirations were destroyed, but I was obviously wrong. I definitely lost some respect for the medical school admissions process upon learning that his academic dishonestly had no bearing on his medical school admissions.

So OP, you too can be a cheater and get into medical school. Maybe some day you can help me out with a suspicious mole I have as well.

 

[de Ribas]

Maybe some day you can help me out with a suspicious mole I have as well.

If you have suspicious mole, don't wait for OP, go see a dermatologist now.

 

[Dantes]

One question, So I have been looking at different schools and etc, and if a school does not ask about academic violations (only felonies and such) and I get admitted. Is it common practice for schools to ask for like some kind of further in depth transcript or background check that would show that I have had a academic integrity violation and they take back the acceptance? Or do they not ask for nothing in regards to a more indepth educational background check after the transcript?

Probably, a lot of (most?) schools ask for a disciplinary record so I would talk to your dean to see what's on it. In most cases they'll be willing to work with you. Expungement policies exist for a reason. At some point in time, your school decides that you've paid your dues with your punishment, and they don't want to ruin the rest of your life if you've had a good record since. If your crime was serious enough, expungement would NOT be an option. If you were caught doing this again they wouldn't expunge it and make the punishment MUCH more severe (at least I would hope). I assume the same goes for misdemeanors, which AMCAS says if expunged do not need reporting for whatever reason.

Also I don't get why that one dude was banned. A little too far on one side of the spectrum sure, but then again we also have people in this thread in positions of appreciable power who give leniency to DUIs because they made similar mistakes and ignore others who disagree with them? Lol c'mon son.

 

[ChymeofPassion]

Probably, a lot of (most?) schools ask for a disciplinary record so I would talk to your dean to see what's on it. In most cases they'll be willing to work with you. Expungement policies exist for a reason. At some point in time, your school decides that you've paid your dues with your punishment, and they don't want to ruin the rest of your life if you've had a good record since. If your crime was serious enough, expungement would NOT be an option. If you were caught doing this again they wouldn't expunge it and make the punishment MUCH more severe (at least I would hope). I assume the same goes for misdemeanors, which AMCAS says if expunged do not need reporting for whatever reason.

Also I don't get why that one dude was banned. A little too far on one side of the spectrum sure, but then again we also have people in this thread in positions of appreciable power who give leniency to DUIs because they made similar mistakes and ignore others who disagree with them? Lol c'mon son.

Welcome to Sdn pre-allo. Moderation is extremely subjective and witch hunt-esque.

 

[ciestar]

Probably, a lot of (most?) schools ask for a disciplinary record so I would talk to your dean to see what's on it. In most cases they'll be willing to work with you. Expungement policies exist for a reason. At some point in time, your school decides that you've paid your dues with your punishment, and they don't want to ruin the rest of your life if you've had a good record since. If your crime was serious enough, expungement would NOT be an option. If you were caught doing this again they wouldn't expunge it and make the punishment MUCH more severe (at least I would hope). I assume the same goes for misdemeanors, which AMCAS says if expunged do not need reporting for whatever reason.

Also I don't get why that one dude was banned. A little too far on one side of the spectrum sure, but then again we also have people in this thread in positions of appreciable power who give leniency to DUIs because they made similar mistakes and ignore others who disagree with them? Lol c'mon son.

Be aware that posts elsewhere on SDN or PMs are subject to scrutiny. You never know.

 

[Goro]

Probably, a lot of (most?) schools ask for a disciplinary record so I would talk to your dean to see what's on it. In most cases they'll be willing to work with you. Expungement policies exist for a reason. At some point in time, your school decides that you've paid your dues with your punishment, and they don't want to ruin the rest of your life if you've had a good record since. If your crime was serious enough, expungement would NOT be an option. If you were caught doing this again they wouldn't expunge it and make the punishment MUCH more severe (at least I would hope). I assume the same goes for misdemeanors, which AMCAS says if expunged do not need reporting for whatever reason.

Also I don't get why that one dude was banned. A little too far on one side of the spectrum sure, but then again we also have people in this thread in positions of appreciable power who give leniency to DUIs because they made similar mistakes and ignore others who disagree with them? Lol c'mon son.

I have it on good authority that he was a troll respawn. And encouraging people to lie to enter a profession that prides itself on professionalism is pretty much a TOS violation.

 

[Lawpy]

Also I don't get why that one dude was banned. A little too far on one side of the spectrum sure, but then again we also have people in this thread in positions of appreciable power who give leniency to DUIs because they made similar mistakes and ignore others who disagree with them? Lol c'mon son.

Welcome to Sdn pre-allo. Moderation is extremely subjective and witch hunt-esque.

I wouldn't jump to conclusions. If anything, it's likely the banned user was a previously banned troll. Or a sockpuppet of a troll/banned user (which violates TOS).

 

[VincentAdultman]

Yeah usually if someone suddenly goes away for posting (relatively) innocuous things it's because the poster was a sock.

 

[Dantes]

Be aware that posts elsewhere on SDN or PMs are subject to scrutiny. You never know.

I have it on good authority that he was a troll respawn. And encouraging people to lie to enter a profession that prides itself on professionalism is pretty much a TOS violation.

I wouldn't jump to conclusions. If anything, it's likely the banned user was a previously banned troll. Or a sockpuppet of a troll/banned user (which violates TOS).

Yeah usually if someone suddenly goes away for posting (relatively) innocuous things it's because the poster was a sock.

Touche, that didn't cross my mind. I stand corrected.

 

[HomeSkool]

Touche, that didn't cross my mind. I stand corrected.

Spoken like a true gentleman. 👍

 

[JonathanHusky]

When you get to be Faculty, and join the Adcom, then you can apply your more stringent standards.

Look, I'm a guy with a family, and fully know that drunk driver kill families like mine. But having done am instance of DUI when I should have known better, I can cut some slack for someone who also made an impaired choice. But cheating is willful misconduct.

whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?!!? A DUI is more forgivable than cheating just b/c you made the same mistake earlier on?! I really hope you're referring to instances mentioned above where someone is pushing a scooter or something... I guess by that logic if someone guilty of academic dishonesty ever makes it to adcom, people like OP will know exactly where to apply...

 

[Goro]

whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?!!? A DUI is more forgivable than cheating just b/c you made the same mistake earlier on?! I really hope you're referring to instances mentioned above where someone is pushing a scooter or something... I guess by that logic if someone guilty of academic dishonesty ever makes it to adcom, people like OP will know exactly where to apply...

The moral outrage is getting tiresome. This is my response in this thread.
Here's the first stone you can cast since you're so sinless:

 

[JonathanHusky]

The moral outrage is getting tiresome. This is my response in this thread.
Here's the first stone you can cast since you're so sinless:

not saying I'm sinless... just surprised that you can look past a DUI more easily simply b/c you made the same mistake than you can a case of cheating... if you're going the "oh everybody makes mistakes" route then you have to apply it to all cases no? not just the ones you yourself have been guilty of

 

[de Ribas]

not saying I'm sinless... just surprised that you can look past a DUI more easily simply b/c you made the same mistake than you can a case of cheating... if you're going the "oh everybody makes mistakes" route then you have to apply it to all cases no? not just the ones you yourself have been guilty of

Judges can cut some slack in the court too if they had DUIs themselves.

 

[Lawpy]

not saying I'm sinless... just surprised that you can look past a DUI more easily simply b/c you made the same mistake than you can a case of cheating... if you're going the "oh everybody makes mistakes" route then you have to apply it to all cases no? not just the ones you yourself have been guilty of

Be convinced from Goro’s posts that admissions is not a fair and objective process, and people with questionable IAs and backstories do get accepted... even though in normal, rational circumstances, they would never have gotten an interview.

 

[Robin-jay]

so as it stands guys i'm going to get an F in the class with an IA, the IA will be removed in a year however record will remain within the university and i am allowed to retake the class. i have learned a lot through this experience and really has opened my eyes to a lot of things. thank you all for the advice i don't think i will pursue med school any longer, one of the school premed advisors contacted me and said i should plan another route now. it is unfortunate but the consequences are of my own doing, I am going to try for nursing as it is a little less competitive and even tho this violation still looks horrible, i think i will have a better chance there and to be able to prove my redemption in the coming years.

Pre-med advisers are meh.

Here's what I would do:

1.) See you can find any past threads on SDN where there was someone with an IA like yours who got accepted.
2.) Try and find out a statistic on people with your IA who were accepted to med. school.
i.) for example, I believe Goro said no one has ever been accepted to his school with your IA, so its obviously a brutal one. I'm not sure if all schools are this intense, but it would be nice to know if you have a 1/100 chance, a 1/1,000 chance, or a 1/10,000 chance.

Its hard to say if you should just give up medicine until you can gauge some statistic, but maybe there is nothing more than anecdotes.

Being a nurse when you desire to be a doctor may make you unhappy (you would have to work with doctors everyday).

 

[Stagg737]

The moral outrage is getting tiresome. This is my response in this thread.
Here's the first stone you can cast since you're so sinless:

You know what else is tiresome? Hearing ADCOMs and other administration members telling people that getting caught committing a crime that leads to tens of thousands of deaths every year is somehow less heinous than getting caught cheating, and constantly hearing the crappy old slippery slope argument that students who cheat become doctors who "cheat" and harm patients. I challenge you to find me one legitimate study that actually shows that. I'm aware of zero, and every argument I've ever heard you or anyone else make regarding cheaters in UG/med school becoming unethical and immoral physicians is all anecdotal and based on fallacies.

Meanwhile there are many studies showing that individuals with substance abuse issues will be intoxicated while at work, that includes physicians. I've seen one study (granted older) which found that 15% of physicians will see patients while under the influence during their career. 15 f****** percent. Let that sink in for a minute. That means of the thousands of students you've had in your career it's very likely hundreds of them have or will practice while impaired during their career. Or if that doesn't sink in, go volunteer in a decently busy ER and see how many patients and family members' lives are destroyed because of a drunk driver. Better yet, when you volunteer go watch an attending pick shards of glass out of a 7 year old's face and neck for an hour because some a-hole decided to get behind the wheel after happy hour and tell me that you think that individual is potentially less dangerous in their future career than some kid who freaked out about failing a class and cheated on a test. Try and build a legitimate argument for that while maintaining any level of actual ethical standards. If you can I'd love to hear it, because I legitimately can't.

So you might be tired of the outrage in this thread, but I'm tired from hearing people trying to make BS justifications for why a DUI isn't as bad as cheating like "it wasn't a big deal when I was growing up" or "I've done it before, so I shouldn't be too hard on someone else who's done it". Idgaf who makes that excuse, whether it's an ADCOM or some other member here, because it's absolute garbage either way. I just find it insane that people who are determining which individuals will have a chance to become physicians could be so ridiculously ignorant or just plain stupid about the topic. I'd call it a joke, but it's far more disgusting than funny.

so as it stands guys i'm going to get an F in the class with an IA, the IA will be removed in a year however record will remain within the university and i am allowed to retake the class. i have learned a lot through this experience and really has opened my eyes to a lot of things. thank you all for the advice i don't think i will pursue med school any longer, one of the school premed advisors contacted me and said i should plan another route now. it is unfortunate but the consequences are of my own doing, I am going to try for nursing as it is a little less competitive and even tho this violation still looks horrible, i think i will have a better chance there and to be able to prove my redemption in the coming years.

Too bad you cheated instead of getting a DUI, then you might have a chance. Setting aside my moral disgust and the mind-boggling levels of ignorance in this thread though, if you really want to become a physician you should go for it. The worst that happens is you apply and get rejected. Despite the frequent reference to Burnett's law in regards to cheating that gets thrown around on SDN frequently, cheating once doesn't automatically mean you will be a crappy physician. Just make sure you actually learned something from the experience and can openly discuss what you learned if the question is brought up (which it will be if you report it).

@Robin-jay 's post is decent advice, especially the part about pre-med advisors (some are fine, others are awful). If you're really committed, you can go ahead and straight up call admissions offices at various medical schools, explain your situation, and ask them point blank if you have any chance. Some may be vague or say "just apply", others will be blunt and give it to you straight. It really just depends on how bad you want to be a physician vs. just getting a job. I'd also attempt to seek out members on SDN who got accepted with an IA and ask them if they're willing to share their story with you. If you decide to take that route, I know there is an individual who is not a fellow or attending who had an IA and is still lurking. I'll PM you their username and you can try and contact them if you want, but idk if they'll respond. Again though, just depends on how bad you want to be a physician vs just putting this behind you and pursuing something else.

 

[bluemamba7]

While what you did is no joke when it comes to the medical field of ANY profession, it appears that you have learned your lesson, even if it is a brutal (and rightfully so) way to learn it. I would research the Caribbean if I were you. Not sure if they take this any more lightly than US medical schools, from what I’ve heard they accept almost anybody, I’m sure there’s more people on this forum that are more educated in this matter and could provide an answer, however it’s worth a shot ONLY IF YOU ARE TRULY PASSIONATE ABOUT THIS CAREER. In other words, it may very well still be possible for you to follow your dreams if you learned from your mistake and work your butt off as Robin-jay mentioned. You can’t use the excuse “Oh I didn’t become a doctor because I cheated” that is the vibe of this forum, rather, it’s “I didn’t become a doctor because I cheated and was not motivated to be a doctor to begin with.” I’m not taking any sides here, however I really can’t stand it when someone turns their back on a profession as giving/righteous as that of a doctor prematurely. It seems pretty clear that you have given up, but perhaps this potential ray of hope may help you in your journey. As Robin-jay said, research the crap out of this situation you put yourself in, make sure you take every possible path you can to right what you did wrong, I think it was a big deal but one that can be learned from and even make you a much better person. Just my two cents on the matter 🙂. Hope you choose what’s best for yourself and most importantly what’s best for those around you!

 

[infectiousdisease101]

I thought about the issue of a DUI being seen as less severe than a cheating IA and this is what I came up with as an impartial third party after seeing both sides of the argument. and here is what I have come up with:

Assuming OP commits a DUI and cheating and is not caught in either scenario, the DUI doesn't give OP something they did not deserve. In the case of cheating, if OP has been cheating before, that means they did not deserve their current 3.9, GPA which could start a domino effect and lead OP to obtain other things they did not deserve: scholarships, admissions to medical school, etc. Also, a DUI is also severely punished: a fine, jail time, etc. A cheating IA is not. All you get is an annotation on your transcript and some universities delete these IAs from their records and the student's transcript after a set amount of years and if the cheater requested their letter writers not to mention it on their LORs after it has been deleted from OP's file, they're basically a clean student and adcoms will never be the wiser.

Here, I will talk about how obvious it is and in regards to work and for the purposes of proving my point, I will use OP's Freudian slip, which suggests OP would have continued to cheat if they weren't caught. You also can't show up to work in a hospital drunk or in a hangover. Even if OP DUI'd without being caught and made it to work, it will get noticed immediately and they can send you home and discipline you and no harm will be done from you coming into work drunk. If OP retains their cheating habits as a physician and provide substandard care, resulting in a patient dying, it can be covered up as a "medical error" because we're all human, we are bound to make mistakes from time to time. If OP is sued, let's cover both cases: if OP wins the malpractice suit and loses. Let's talk about winning first. If OP wins, they may be on edge for a while but because old habits die hard, they can slip back to providing substandard care just to make things easier on themselves. Let's talk about losing the lawsuit now. In civil cases, only money is involved. OP will not serve jail time and the insurance company will cover the settlement. Also, honest medical errors are common since a physician is tiresome work and it is the third leading cause of death in the US. So it would be hard to conclude OP purposely provided substandard care so they could go home early or whatever. According to the link, even if OP lost a suit, they would not lose their license immediately, but they can be subject to an investigation if they had a certain number of suits within a certain period of time. So OP would be on edge for a year or two, then slip back into their cheating ways and provide substandard care, which could eventually result in another unnecessary death. Even if OP lost that suit, sufficient time will have passed and it would be hard to say for sure OP purposely provided substandard care. As long as OP avoids having 2+ lawsuits within a certain period of time, if they get sued and that time period has elapsed, they would go back to providing substandard are until a patient dies under them again. Now let's talk about what would happen if OP lost their license, this means the adcoms responsible for admitting OP into medical school made a poor decision admitting someone like OP when the seat could have gone to someone who would have a medical career and be able to help more people until their retirement.

In every case I tried to apply a DUI and cheating to, a DUI is more upfront and less deceptive than a cheating IA.

However, if on their IA essay, OP acknowledged taking shortcuts by cheating will provide OP with substandard knowledge and would compromise their ability to provide adequate care for their patients, I would give them fair consideration because everyone makes stupid decisions. Being under 25, I can understand if you make stupid decisions because our brains develop from back to front. That means your prefrontal cortex (I am assuming you're not 25) is still developing when you were caught, so in this respect, it's not your fault our brains are evolutionarily wired to develop from back to front. It's evolution's fault. I can guarantee you there is not one person that made a stupid decision without thinking it through because their prefrontal cortex is slow to develop. Notice I am not calling your cheating a mistake because it was not a mistake. You knew about the consequences but failed to think it through.

Disclaimer: some of my input came from this link.

http://mdmentor.com/resources/05-11+SYHBS+HL+revised.pdf

If I am going to be honest, if, in theory, I was OP's peer mentor and OP told me they have a track record of cheating without being caught, I would not immediately turn them in. The reason why is being able to cheat repeatedly shows OP is extremely diligent and I would try to enlighten OP by taking them to a hospital to show them just how serious healthcare is and if they provided substandard care, people could die under OP's care. This way, I can get OP to focus their diligence onto something positive: paying closer to their patient's charts and history and providing excellent patient care and possibly saving lives by noticing small details most people would miss, including other physicians. I got this idea from Vin Diesel. When he was a kid, he and some friends broke into a theater to vandalize it, but they were caught. Rather than report them to the police, the theater manager gave them roles in the theater to focus their time and energy onto something good and keep them off the streets. That's how Vin Diesel's acting career got started. Given how he turned out, I say the manager made the right call. Likewise, I would try to get OP to realize the error of their way and focus that diligence into being honest and for the benefit of others as a physician rather than for himself. If OP still continued to pursue medicine and cheat, then I would report OP because honestly, you would have to be a horrible human being to continue cheating after being shown what could happen if you take shortcuts in providing patient care and still continue to do it. If someone could give me their input on this theoretical scenario and tell me if they agree or disagree with me and why, it would be appreciated. I like to see both sides' argument on issues or scenarios like this.

 

[HomeSkool]

I got this idea from Vin Diesel.

#ThenIGotArrested

Seriously, though, this thread has become a complete dumpster fire and needs to be closed.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using SDN mobile

 

[Goro]

#ThenIGotArrested

Seriously, though, this thread has become a complete dumpster fire and needs to be closed.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using SDN mobile

My learned colleague has a gift for understatement.

 

[Stagg737]

In the case of cheating, if OP has been cheating before, that means they did not deserve their current 3.9, GPA which could start a domino effect and lead OP to obtain other things they did not deserve: scholarships, admissions to medical school, etc.

Slippery slope fallacy. Provide actual evidence of this please, as I pointed out that the only evidence ever presented about this is anecdotal, which means exactly nothing when practicing EBM.

You also can't show up to work in a hospital drunk or in a hangover. Even if OP DUI'd without being caught and made it to work, it will get noticed immediately and they can send you home and discipline you and no harm will be done from you coming into work drunk.

This is incorrect, and the bolded is incorrect in multiple ways. Studies have shown over and over that physicians and other members of the healthcare team are very hesitant to report impaired co-workers and that impaired providers actually work while under the influence for a significant amount of time (oftentimes months) before they are caught. Additionally, if someone is noted to be drunk at work, they don't just get sent home and "no harm is done". They are often fired or suspended and should always be reported to the state's board of healing arts, which often results in them losing their license or being put on very strict probation with hoops to jump through for literally decades (regular drug tests, then random drug tests, counseling, supervised practice, etc.). I've spoken to several physicians who went through this on an addiction med rotation, and it's not some benign instance that you're making it out to be.

If OP retains their cheating habits as a physician and provide substandard care, resulting in a patient dying, it can be covered up as a "medical error" because we're all human, we are bound to make mistakes from time to time.

Again, slippery slope fallacy with confounding variables this time. Was it just an error? Did they really cheat? Did they actually cheat in the past? Again, data please. As to your lawsuit scenarios, I'm not even going to touch them as they're so riddled with fallacies (strawman, slippery slope, false cause, composition/division, the list really goes on and on) that I don't even know where to start picking them apart. Could that happen, sure. But there are so many other possible outcomes/results/situations that it's kind of pointless to try and create an algorithm for them all. That's also assuming that the assumptions you're making are true, which I won't assume.

The only other issue I'll address is your repeat cheater situation. The problem with that situation is that this person is not a person who had a lapse of judgment in a moment of panic or someone who "accidentally" cheated because they weren't aware of some policy, it's a person with an established pattern of behavior. If that person is truly unaware as to why that behavior is wrong or doesn't realize it can have serious negative outcomes, maybe you can "rehabilitate" them. If they're already aware that they're doing something wrong though, it's much harder to do, which is why ADCOMs look for people to show over several years that they have learned why it's wrong and that they've legitimately changed. So in that instance I would certainly report the person unless you truly felt they were unaware that what they were doing was wrong.

I'll definitely try and call up some medical schools to see if i'd be better off not applying at all or i may have a chance, also stagg if you could pm me that other person who got an IA that would be amazing thank you. Also in response to the nursing idea i've always been leaning towards being a physician however nursing was also in the back of my head as i liked the idea of CRNAs and NPs, if i did become one i don't know if ill regret it because ill be working with physicians 24/7 but i do know that it was something i have considered before this. I also feel as though nursing may be a better route now since by the time i apply for something like nurse anesthetist school the incident will have been 5 years in the past in my undergraduate degree. (it'll still suck that it's there but not as bad id assume) I think i'll call up some medical schools probably DO mostly since they seem to be a little more forgiving and i'll try and do some research regarding IA's and let you guys know whether i decide to take the mcat and throw my app in or just aim completely towards a accelerated bsn program.

also infectious im 18 haha not 25 yet

also idk anything about caribbean schools but i heard they're a scam

I wouldn't count on DO schools being more forgiving of an IA. Goro is an ADCOM at a DO school, and he has made it clear that he and his school would want nothing to do with you. DO schools are more forgiving of people who don't do as well in terms of grades and have shown they are strong candidates in other ways, or for older candidates who were late to the game. Not people who cheat.

Generally, Carib schools are a terrible choice for most people for several reasons. Their attrition rates are very high, partially because they accept individuals who aren't good enough to get into US med schools and partially because they don't provide strong resources for their students outside of board prep. Many of them are expensive, and on top of that they have far more individuals that take more than 4 years to graduate than at US schools, which just costs more time and money for the candidate. On top of that, unless you are stronger than 95% of all US grads, your specialty choice is very limited coming from the Carib. So unless you're willing to limit yourself to low tier FM, IM, psych, and one or two other fields, Carib is a bad choice.

There are a few people for which Carib is a legitimate option. Those are individuals who have a strong work ethic, were very successful in UG (especially science courses), who don't mind taking whatever they can get in terms of residency, don't mind taking on a ton of debt/have rich family that can pay for it, and have some other barrier preventing them from getting into a US school (like an IA for cheating). The problem is that even checking off all those boxes, there's still nowhere near a guarantee that finishing med school will land you a residency position. The other issue is that each year it is getting harder and harder for IMGs to match, and once the merger goes through it may be near impossible. I'd say that 5 years from now will be near the end of the time when IMG grads can legitimately do decently in the match without being studs. I think that in 2-3 years I'll likely be advising everyone to avoid the Carib at all costs. That's just speculation for now though.