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[SkiOtter]

Of course, I love animals and I would love to pursue a career in veterinary medicine

As a vet, you are seeing animals very little and have to deal with the owners who bring them in more than the animals themselves. If you love animals and want to work with animals all the time, work in a shelter or be a vet tech.

whether or not I could pay off more than 100k debt while making around 70k.

To have only about 100k in debt, you’d have to go to a cheap in state or to a school that allows you to switch your residency after the first year. Since none of that is guaranteed to happen the first time around (avg number of cycles applied is like 2.3 or something?), you’d either be looking at possibly applying multiple times to just those schools and spending more app money or possibly you’d be going out of state to a school that doesn’t allow you to change residency.

I am thinking about switching to pre-pharm.... I hope it's not too late

As for this, if you can see yourself happy in a pharm career, go for it. It’s definitely not too late, it just may take a bit more time to get there. I didn’t change my mind to go back on the vet school track until senior year. I ended up having to take an extra semester of classes, but it was doable and I got in on my second try.
If you can’t see yourself doing anything BUT vetmed, go for vetmed. If you like another field, go explore that other field and see if you would be happy in that field and then go do it.
If you do stay with vetmed, make sure to really research the debt you’d be getting yourself into.

 

[allieh8607]

Sometimes I feel like this type of question would be best answered by a seasoned, mid-to-late in their career veterinarian who had the debt burden we all do now, went through all the income based repayment stuff, and has payed the giant tax at the end of their payment plan. I don't think there's anyone who has reached that point yet. Because if I had to tell you right now what my answer would be, it would probably be no, vet school was not worth it. Don't get me wrong, I feel like I landed a unicorn job that I absolutely love but at the same time I'm a newlywed who lives with her husband in her grandpa's basement. I feel pressured to place starting my family and buying a house on the back burner so that I can get my career established and save as much money as possible. But I feel like I'm also pretty good at not getting overwhelmed by the debt because I did significant research before vet school and I knew 100% what I was getting into. Vet school itself got me my dream career (and I couldn't imagine doing anything else) so in that regard yes it was 100% worth it. That's why I'm curious what people on the other side will say, once their loans have been forgiven and they're at the height of their career. When everything is said and done- were they able to have the lives they wanted for themselves while holding the weight of the debt burden on their shoulders the entire time?

 

[MixedAnimals77]

Of course, I love animals and I would love to pursue a career in veterinary medicine if money were no object....
It is definitely a rewarding and meaningful job but I am highly skeptical about whether or not I could pay off more than 100k debt while making around 70k.

I am a rising junior majoring in biology..and I am completely lost....
I know that choosing a career based on income alone is stupid, but I think financial return is also an important factor to consider...

I am thinking about switching to pre-pharm.... I hope it's not too late

I think the others have addressed everything well, but I wanted to talk about the pharm part. There was a point in my life where I left vet med temporarily (long story). One idea I thought during that time was pharmacy school. Definitely do some more shadowing in each! I shadowed in a retail and hospital setting and can tell you 100% pharmacy isn't for me. I did organic research, research on antibiotics, and can do organic in my sleep-totally could've gone to pharmacy school and killed it but the lines of work are vastly different. After a summer hiatus from vet med I returned. Yeah it's alot of money etc but if it's worth it is also a personal decision. Can you live with the debt? Are you with potentially altering your lifestyle for the next 30 or so years to accommodate the debt? The one thing I learned shadowing pharmacists is I cannot stand being inside all the time behind a computer. As lame and dorky as all that sounds it was my honest answer when answering questions at interviews like why rural med or why vet and not pharm. I'm one of the few lucky ones ski talks about. I'll be living with my fiance who'll be paying for living expenses during school. My IS is expensive but I got into a cheaper OSS because they let me gain residency. I'll have some financial support from my parents. Plus I had a full ride and lived at home during undergrad so I have a significant chunk saved up. I would highly recommend more shadowing for you in vet and pharmacy to decide if it's for you.

 

[that redhead]

I'm in a tough position to answer. I graduated with $249k of debt, all from vet school (I had no debt going in), and have been paying it down since 2015 with basically my entire paycheck every month. I'm about half-way there. This is doable because my husband pays ALL of our living expenses which includes a mortgage, gas, food, fun, etc. He was the one who saved up for our down payment while I was in school. We don't have any car loans and he doesn't have any debt and makes good money. Kids are next on the horizon and I know we'll make it work because of what we've built together already. I could have gone IBR but I'd rather just pay it off now than save up for the tax payment at the end.

Is it worth it? Well, I do enjoy my work. Could I be happy doing something else? Probably. If I had to support myself or if my husband didn't make as much or had his own debts to pay down or whatever, I'd probably find the associated costs a tough pill to swallow.

As a vet, you are seeing animals very little and have to deal with the owners who bring them in more than the animals themselves. If you love animals and want to work with animals all the time, work in a shelter or be a vet tech.

I mean I do work with animals all day every day. Examining patients and performing surgeries is the bulk of my work. But I do also work with people all day every day too, and do a decent amount of reading up on things, writing records, etc. My previous job allowed for a lot more hands-on stuff (drawing blood, placing catheters, etc) but that wasn't really what I wanted to spend a big portion of my time doing every day. If someone wants to work with animals, being a small animal GP is fine, but if that person doesn't want to work as much with people, not as good a fit. That being said, my techs work with people just as much if not more than I do - educating, tech appointments, calls, etc. Every place will be different 🙂

 

[vetmedhead]

I don't have anything useful to contribute to this thread, just that it reminded me of this classic

 

[dyachei]

I'm in a tough position to answer. I graduated with $249k of debt, all from vet school (I had no debt going in), and have been paying it down since 2015 with basically my entire paycheck every month. I'm about half-way there. This is doable because my husband pays ALL of our living expenses which includes a mortgage, gas, food, fun, etc. He was the one who saved up for our down payment while I was in school. We don't have any car loans and he doesn't have any debt and makes good money. Kids are next on the horizon and I know we'll make it work because of what we've built together already. I could have gone IBR but I'd rather just pay it off now than save up for the tax payment at the end.

Is it worth it? Well, I do enjoy my work. Could I be happy doing something else? Probably. If I had to support myself or if my husband didn't make as much or had his own debts to pay down or whatever, I'd probably find the associated costs a tough pill to swallow.



I mean I do work with animals all day every day. Examining patients and performing surgeries is the bulk of my work. But I do also work with people all day every day too, and do a decent amount of reading up on things, writing records, etc. My previous job allowed for a lot more hands-on stuff (drawing blood, placing catheters, etc) but that wasn't really what I wanted to spend a big portion of my time doing every day. If someone wants to work with animals, being a small animal GP is fine, but if that person doesn't want to work as much with people, not as good a fit. That being said, my techs work with people just as much if not more than I do - educating, tech appointments, calls, etc. Every place will be different 🙂

I think the biggest thing is the sense of obligation. I graduated with less debt, but I can't even consider going part time, because I need a certain amount of pay, even with my husband's paycheck, to make all ends meet.

It's kind of a trap and it smothers you - almost a claustrophobic feeling. Taking time off work, especially prolonged, means you may not be able to pay off your debt. And PAYE or similar programs, while great, mean you stay in that trap much longer. I'm set to pay off my debt in the 10 year time frame but I wouldn't be able to if I were unmarried. We already live somewhat frugally and our savings account isn't as good as I would like.

 

[that redhead]

I'm set to pay off my debt in the 10 year time frame but I wouldn't be able to if I were unmarried. We already live somewhat frugally and our savings account isn't as good as I would like.

This is a really great point I forgot to mention, probably because savings/retirement/etc are even further away than repaying loans in most pre-vets' minds.

 

[Chili_Cat]

I'm set to pay off my debt in the 10 year time frame but I wouldn't be able to if I were unmarried. We already live somewhat frugally and our savings account isn't as good as I would like.

I feel like I’m super naive in all the student loan debt business, but based on some online calculators (super reliable, I know) I feel like I’ll be able to pay off my loans in like 5 years? I’m not banking on it actually working out that way because stuff happens you can’t always predict, but I’m wondering if you know of anyone who’s done that or if you considered paying it off sooner and opted for 10 years instead?

 

[dyachei]

I feel like I’m super naive in all the student loan debt business, but based on some online calculators (super reliable, I know) I feel like I’ll be able to pay off my loans in like 5 years? I’m not banking on it actually working out that way because stuff happens you can’t always predict, but I’m wondering if you know of anyone who’s done that or if you considered paying it off sooner and opted for 10 years instead?

No, you likely won't. Don't forget that your starting salary is pre-tax. So after tax, cost of living, etc, your take home is much smaller than expected.

No, I don't know anyone that could have paid it off quickly that opted to go longer. The interest rate alone is high enough that it's better to pay it off because the average return on retirement, etc, is usually at least a percentage point lower

 

[Chili_Cat]

No, you likely won't. Don't forget that your starting salary is pre-tax. So after tax, cost of living, etc, your take home is much smaller than expected.

No, I don't know anyone that could have paid it off quickly that opted to go longer. The interest rate alone is high enough that it's better to pay it off because the average return on retirement, etc, is usually at least a percentage point lower

I probably should’ve mentioned that my boyfriend has a job that pays pretty well and he plans to stay there long-term (and has already accepted that he’ll be paying living expenses after I graduate for a while as I focus on paying off my loans) and I’ll be about 100K in debt which is still a lot, but could be much worse.
No one in my family/no one I’m close to has gone this deep in education debt so I’m kinda just relying on stuff I hear, so it’s good to know that a 10 year repayment plan is manageable

 

[dyachei]

I probably should’ve mentioned that my boyfriend has a job that pays pretty well and he plans to stay there long-term (and has already accepted that he’ll be paying living expenses after I graduate for a while as I focus on paying off my loans) and I’ll be about 100K in debt which is still a lot, but could be much worse.
No one in my family/no one I’m close to has gone this deep in education debt so I’m kinda just relying on stuff I hear, so it’s good to know that a 10 year repayment plan is manageable

That will really help. If you can pay it off earlier, definitely do it.

 

[JustPaws]

I am thinking about switching to pre-pharm.... I hope it's not too late

You might want to head over to the pharm forums, seems like some stuff is going down in that field with hours/income due to the corporate pharms taking over. I say this having just skimmed the surface of that forum, so do your due diligence. Good luck no matter what direction you head!

 

[Ashekan A]

Sometimes I feel like this type of question would be best answered by a seasoned, mid-to-late in their career veterinarian who had the debt burden we all do now, went through all the income based repayment stuff, and has payed the giant tax at the end of their payment plan. I don't think there's anyone who has reached that point yet. Because if I had to tell you right now what my answer would be, it would probably be no, vet school was not worth it. Don't get me wrong, I feel like I landed a unicorn job that I absolutely love but at the same time I'm a newlywed who lives with her husband in her grandpa's basement. I feel pressured to place starting my family and buying a house on the back burner so that I can get my career established and save as much money as possible. But I feel like I'm also pretty good at not getting overwhelmed by the debt because I did significant research before vet school and I knew 100% what I was getting into. Vet school itself got me my dream career (and I couldn't imagine doing anything else) so in that regard yes it was 100% worth it. That's why I'm curious what people on the other side will say, once their loans have been forgiven and they're at the height of their career. When everything is said and done- were they able to have the lives they wanted for themselves while holding the weight of the debt burden on their shoulders the entire time?

Now that it has been a few years, do you feel any different?

 

[FijianVet]

I know that Vet School debt is a huge problem and can be tough to deal with, but if you specialize or go for a PhD (if you're interested in research), isn't the pay significantly higher? I've heard that jobs in industry, primate centers, or places like the CDC have much higher pay for DVM graduates, is this true? I've also heard that equine sports medicine and lab animal specialists have high salaries. From my experience working with a Board Certified Ophthalmologist, she mentioned that she was able to pay her debt off that she acquired during vet school within two years with her income?

 

[KCgophervet]

I know that Vet School debt is a huge problem and can be tough to deal with, but if you specialize or go for a PhD (if you're interested in research), isn't the pay significantly higher? I've heard that jobs in industry, primate centers, or places like the CDC have much higher pay for DVM graduates, is this true? I've also heard that equine sports medicine and lab animal specialists have high salaries. From my experience working with a Board Certified Ophthalmologist, she mentioned that she was able to pay her debt off that she acquired during vet school within two years with her income?

Not necessarily. Depends on the specialty and where you get a job honestly. I would not bank on primate centers offering higher pay than a typical SA GP. Lab animal can cross the board from on par with SA GP to higher but again it depends on if you're working for academia vs government vs industry. And don't forget you lose income (as in, get paid but not very much) during the years in training you spend earning that specialty.

 

[battie]

specialize or go for a PhD (if you're interested in research), isn't the pay significantly higher?

The thing with this is 1) actually being able to specialize and then 2) finding that niche job if you're in a niche field.

Looking at the VIRMP statistics for 2020, 793 people didn't match. They state an overall match rate of 51% (64% internships, 33% residencies). So even if you *want* to specialize, you have a whole lot of hoops to jump through during and after vet school. So specialization should not be counted on in order to help fix the debt burden.

Likewise, you have to find a job. There are a finite number of jobs in all these specialties and some of them are pretty reliant on the economy. One of our equine surgery residents that just got boarded has to take an equine associate job because no one is hiring an equine surgeon. She's getting paid the same as someone in her class that went straight into practice, no joke.

 

[DVMDream]

From my experience working with a Board Certified Ophthalmologist, she mentioned that she was able to pay her debt off that she acquired during vet school within two years with her income?

There are a many things you should instantly be thinking when someone says this.
1. Are they married? Do they have an SO who is paying every single other bill so they can basically dump their entire salary into their student loan debt.

2. What is their student loan debt? There is a big difference between "I paid off $100k in two years" and "I paid off $380k in two years." Heck, even $100k could potentially be paid off on a decent SA GP salary within a few years if you allocate your salary correctly. Paying off $250K++++ quickly on a GP salary alone is going to be much more difficult.

3. Did they move back home and live rent free with parents? Did they inherit property? Did they receive money from the death of a family member (aunt/uncle/grandparent/parent).

There are just way too many factors that go into each person's individual situation that stories of "well I did it in two years, so it can be done" need to be taken with a large grain of salt. Realize they may have been financially stable in other areas that many new grads or newly starting specialists aren't stable in.

 

[johnsmith123]

There are a many things you should instantly be thinking when someone says this.
1. Are they married? Do they have an SO who is paying every single other bill so they can basically dump their entire salary into their student loan debt.

2. What is their student loan debt? There is a big difference between "I paid off $100k in two years" and "I paid off $380k in two years." Heck, even $100k could potentially be paid off on a decent SA GP salary within a few years if you allocate your salary correctly. Paying off $250K++++ quickly on a GP salary alone is going to be much more difficult.

3. Did they move back home and live rent free with parents? Did they inherit property? Did they receive money from the death of a family member (aunt/uncle/grandparent/parent).

There are just way too many factors that go into each person's individual situation that stories of "well I did it in two years, so it can be done" need to be taken with a large grain of salt. Realize they may have been financially stable in other areas that many new grads or newly starting specialists aren't stable in.

I've seen too many people say "I paid my OOS vet school loans off in just over 8 months! You can do it too if you put your mind to it!" When questioned on the specifics, they say "oh yeah, my spouse makes $5 million a year so that helped a bit too".

 

[vetmedhead]

I think it's also important to think about the fact that I'm pretty sure that ophtho is the highest paid veterinary specialty across the board

 

[battie]

I think it's also important to think about the fact that I'm pretty sure that ophtho is the highest paid veterinary specialty across the board

Not rads?!?!

 

[vetmedhead]

Not rads?!?!

They're definitely up there, but last I checked median salary for ophthos was like $200,000-$215,000. I think radiologists are closer to $150,000 median salary? But I also think it's been a while since anyone has collated this data and things change a lot, especially with the advent of increasing access to digital radiology and sending images off for remote interpretation.

 

[CoffeeQuestionMark]

I think nutrition, and lab animal medicine are also up there near ophtho

 

[KCgophervet]

I think behavior, nutrition, and lab animal medicine are also up there near ophtho

Not lab animal. At least according to the most recent salary survey.

Sent from my phone using the mobile app because I bought it and I'm stubborn

 

[CoffeeQuestionMark]

Not lab animal. At least according to the most recent salary survey.

Sent from my phone using the mobile app because I bought it and I'm stubborn

Hm, the numbers we were given through our club were 175k median for lab animal vets. It was higher or lower depending on if you were academia or clinical but can't remember which was which

 

[vetmedhead]

Hm, the numbers we were given through our club were 175k median for lab animal vets. It was higher or lower depending on if you were academia or clinical but can't remember which was which

If you ever have to guess, academia is almost always worse paid than other avenues. Not sure how it cracks out in lab animal specifically since quite a lot of lab animal research is at academic or otherwise publically funded institutions

 

[mmmdreamerz]

I think behavior, nutrition, and lab animal medicine are also up there near ophtho

Nutrition also kinda depends. If you work for Hill’s sure, but our boarded Nutritionist said it can be hard to solely be boarded in nutrition. Most are double boarded and not just doing nutrition.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I think behavior, nutrition, and lab animal medicine are also up there near ophtho

How does behavior make money? They charge like $500 for a 1-2 hr consult and a lot of follow up over email and stuff for free... And they often rx our meds to human pharmacies or through the rDVM. Where are they making that money?

I can charge $100-$500 per appointment at q20-30min appts... and I bet I do a lot fewer “free” follow ups than behavior

 

[CoffeeQuestionMark]

How does behavior make money? They charge like $500 for a 1-2 hr consult and a lot of follow up over email and stuff for free... And they often rx our meds to human pharmacies or through the rDVM. Where are they making that money?

I can charge $100-$500 per appointment at q20-30min appts... and I bet I do a lot fewer “free” follow ups than behavior

Ok I just checked and I am wrong about that one

 

[FijianVet]

Thank you for the responses! I think I understand now. I was looking at lab animal/research veterinarian salaries, and I think it is based on state and what company or place you work at also (as kcoughli mentioned). Some of the lab animal vets that I worked for before in my state have really high salaries, but I think it could be the place they work at and they also have a PhD along with their ACLAM certification. But I guess they are an exception, since there are different places to work as a lab animal vet and the pay can be quite different.
The veterinary ophthalmologist, I worked with graduated from UC Davis (in-state tuition)+cost of living, so she said she had about $180,000 in loans. She went straight into her ophthalmology residency and then I think it was after three or four years of residency when she became board certified and started working as a veterinary ophthalmologist. At that time she was not married and was supporting herself financially. This may be an exception, since there are not that many ophthalmology specialists in the U.S (compared to other fields), I've heard it's a small group, so the demand and job opportunities may be different, but I'm not sure.

 

[KCgophervet]

Hm, the numbers we were given through our club were 175k median for lab animal vets. It was higher or lower depending on if you were academia or clinical but can't remember which was which

So here's the discrepency (while paging through the 2018 survey results): the mean was at 175K but the highest was like 600K (who is this person and how do I become them??) but the majority of positions (60%) were in academia where the mean is closer to 140K with 10 years of experience. In industry the mean is around 170K with 10 years of experience but was only 15% of respondents so not as many positions (or at least not as many people willing to fill out the survey). Then of course there are location factors that also come into play. The major thing though is that those means go drastically down with fewer years of experience under your belt so you're not going to be graduating and jumping into a 200K job (or finishing residency and jumping into a 200K job). You might see that 20 years down the road, but not immediately. So perhaps there is more earning potential in the long run but right now I'm looking at making about 10K more than a SA GP right out of school (after 3 years working for half that) so I don't think of it as being one of the big $$ specialties personally.

 

[battie]

started working as a veterinary ophthalmologist.

When was this?

 

[FijianVet]

I believe it was three years ago.

 

[LetItSnow]

As a vet, you are seeing animals very little and have to deal with the owners who bring them in more than the animals themselves. If you love animals and want to work with animals all the time, work in a shelter or be a vet tech.

Eh. Very little? I am hands on with animals all shift.

Yeah, the client contact part is critical, and is usually more of the job than a typical wannabe vet understands, but I wouldn't say you "see animals very little." It's a major part of my job as a practicing clinician.

If you can’t see yourself doing anything BUT vetmed, go for vetmed.

I am very soured on the industry, and I think if you can't see yourself doing anything but vet med, you just don't have enough imagination or haven't been exposed to the right possibilities.

This industry works out well for a small percentage of people, and it burns out and breaks down far too many, for all sorts of reasons.

Run away while you can, if you're a pre-vet student.

Ironically, the money side is doable depending on what you want to do. Money is the one thing about this job that is fine. I make plenty as an ER doc. More than many boarded specialists. So there ARE ways around the debt problem if you have the aptitude for ER work in a truly busy ER, or if you want to pursue certain specialties. I mean, it took us two YEARS to hire a cardiologist. And every time we need to add an IM doc or surgeon they're out there ... but it takes time to find them. Within the limitations of being somewhere near a specialty/referral/university environment, if you want to go specialty, you can probably pick your location easily.

But what you're going to find is this: Either the job doesn't pay enough, or it pays enough but it kills you. And then there is a small percentage of people who land in a job that pays them what they need AND they enjoy it. But it's not a very large percentage.

*shrug* That's my experience.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Run away while you can, if you're a pre-vet student.

Huh, this is probably the strongest worded response I’ve seen from you.

It would be interesting if we compiled all the responses to the “are you happy?/do you regret it?” threads from over the years for each of the old timers labeled with how many years in practice they were. Even better if it started out with our commentary about the profession before and during vet school. The evolution is quite amazing.

 

[LetItSnow]

Huh, this is probably the strongest worded response I’ve seen from you.

It would be interesting if we compiled all the responses to the “are you happy?/do you regret it?” threads from over the years for each of the old timers labeled with how many years in practice they were. Even better if it started out with our commentary about the profession before and during vet school. The evolution is quite amazing.

Yeah. Sorry. I probably should moderate my thoughts more. Kinda been a rough period for me for reasons both work and non-work related.

There are good days, occasionally, in vet med.

 

[DVMDream]

Eh. Very little? I am hands on with animals all shift.

Yeah, the client contact part is critical, and is usually more of the job than a typical wannabe vet understands, but I wouldn't say you "see animals very little." It's a major part of my job as a practicing clinician.



I am very soured on the industry, and I think if you can't see yourself doing anything but vet med, you just don't have enough imagination or haven't been exposed to the right possibilities.

This industry works out well for a small percentage of people, and it burns out and breaks down far too many, for all sorts of reasons.

Run away while you can, if you're a pre-vet student.

Ironically, the money side is doable depending on what you want to do. Money is the one thing about this job that is fine. I make plenty as an ER doc. More than many boarded specialists. So there ARE ways around the debt problem if you have the aptitude for ER work in a truly busy ER, or if you want to pursue certain specialties. I mean, it took us two YEARS to hire a cardiologist. And every time we need to add an IM doc or surgeon they're out there ... but it takes time to find them. Within the limitations of being somewhere near a specialty/referral/university environment, if you want to go specialty, you can probably pick your location easily.

But what you're going to find is this: Either the job doesn't pay enough, or it pays enough but it kills you. And then there is a small percentage of people who land in a job that pays them what they need AND they enjoy it. But it's not a very large percentage.

*shrug* That's my experience.

Or worse it doesn't pay enough and it kills you.

I've learned a lot about how other Dr's treat their colleagues and damn... I just can't. It is rather disheartening.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Yeah. Sorry. I probably should moderate my thoughts more. Kinda been a rough period for me for reasons both work and non-work related.

There are good days, occasionally, in vet med.

No need to be sorry. I’ve definitely had those periods, and it seems like it becomes more often the longer I go. Sorry you feel that way, but I totally commiserate. I took the approach of switching jobs every time I got into a prolonged rut and got to the point where I realized that there is no changing the situation and my choice was to live with it or search greener pastures. After a handful, I’ve come to realize that it’s just that the system is rigged against us, and that it’s really hard to find a situation like you said where you’re happy and well compensated. Honestly, compensation isn’t even that bad right now. I can’t imagine making less than $120k even in GP in my area. I was making that just 1 year out.

Based on my experience, I feel like Of the small proportion of the people who are truly happy with their nonspecialized clinical jobs (as in GP or ER) most are either beaten into submission into realizing that their position “isn’t as bad as what could be out there” or they have a carefree personality where they just don’t seem bothered when they’re shat on, or they still have their rose colored glasses and need a couple years... I know very few people who truly feel like they’ve won the jackpot with their jobs who have been there 5+years.

 

[alygar]

Based on my experience, I feel like Of the small proportion of the people who are truly happy with their nonspecialized clinical jobs (as in GP or ER) most are either beaten into submission into realizing that their position “isn’t as bad as what could be out there” or they have a carefree personality where they just don’t seem bothered when they’re shat on, or they still have their rose colored glasses and need a couple years

So what do you recommend for students to do to maximize future happiness? Specialize? Is there anything we can do?

I feel like for many of us reading this thread, we're probably in too deep to run away now (or at least that's how it feels). So I am curious if any of you (@Minnerbelle, @DVMDream, @LetItSnow) have advice that can help us at least ATTEMPT to set ourselves up for future job satisfaction. But otherwise, is your consensus that vet school is not worth it?

 

[DVMDream]

So what do you recommend for students to do to maximize future happiness? Specialize? Is there anything we can do?

I feel like for many of us reading this thread, we're probably in too deep to run away now (or at least that's how it feels). So I am curious if any of you (@Minnerbelle, @DVMDream, @LetItSnow) have advice that can help us at least ATTEMPT to set ourselves up for future job satisfaction. But otherwise, is your consensus that vet school is not worth it?

There is really no simple answer to this as it entirely depends on where you end up working and the culture of the clinic you are in. I don't necessarily think specializing is the answer as even those in specialty medicine run into issues as well.

I think most of what bothers me at least is the micromanaging and expectation that because you are a "salaried" employee your time doesn't matter. You are just there to keep working and keep inputting more and more hours in. Breaks don't matter, you can work instead. You don't actually really "get off" when your shift ends, that is just when the patients might stop coming in or for ER when you may be able to stop taking on new patients. You are still stuck dealing with all the records, phone calls, emails, etc you didn't have time to address throughout the day at the end. So a 10 hour shift becomes a 12 hour one. Or a 14 hour shift becomes 16 hours.

Vets, overall, don't like to see their co-workers getting slammed, so we often willingly stay late or behind if **** is hitting the fan to assist the co-worker that is still there. We don't like when we are alone with **** hitting the fan, so we often don't let it happen to out colleagues either. But clinics just know that we will do this so they don't hire additional staff that is really needed. Because why do that when you have 4-5 vets who will do that work for free basically?

And the micromanaging from those that don't have a DVM and have no clue what they are talking about. I have been ridiculed for not agreeing to "babysit" a dog for a non-client who called the clinic saying his dog has been having respiratory issues at night and he just wants someone to board it for the day to make sure it is breathing ok while he is at work. Office manager asked if we could do that and I said "hell no", the dog needs an actual exam and diagnostics, we aren't a boarding facility and even if we were, I wouldn't allow boarding of a pet with potential underlying respiratory issues. And this was in a clinic that had no oxygen kennel. Just overall a bad idea, but yet I was the "bad guy".

I got told by an office manager that I can't offer referral to an ER for an 11 year old Great Dane with a GDV that was having auscultatable arrhythmias. That I can only offer for us to do the procedure. Yeah, stood my ground on that too. The best option for that patient was ER and I was damn sure going to offer it to the owner. That office manager was pissed about it, but it isn't her livelihood or license that will be affected if I hadn't offered ER and that dog did poorly. And given the age and the condition that dog was in on presentation, it was unlikely to go well with even the best surgeon on the case.

I have yet to work in a job in veterinary medicine where my "ability" to do my job is NOT measured by numbers. I have yet to work in a position where my ability is measured by how well I do my job, by how I treat people, by how I treat clients, or by the lives I do help/save. Every job I have worked in my ability is measured by numbers and numbers only. How many patients can I see in a shift? What is my ACT (average client transaction) basically are the clients spending enough money? If they aren't, clearly it must mean I am not offering enough and not that they are declining services. How much money am I bringing the clinic? Yes, I get it, finances are important and I need to bring in money to cover my salary, but damn is it demoralizing to have review after review in which you aren't praised about any of your medicine/knowledge/saves and everything to be about stats and numbers. And no matter how good your numbers are, I have yet to have a place not say "well these are good but you know, they could always be better."

There isn't much you can do to avoid some of these things as they are present in many (if not most) clinics and positions to some degree. You do need the strength to stand up for what is right for your patients even if the office manager/tech/receptionist are all pissed at you. You do what is best for the patient. Period. They can just be angry. If they want something different, they can take on 8+ years of school and a few hundred grand in debt.

Try to stand up for your breaks, I started putting my foot down about getting a lunch break and when I did, places started to accommodate. I am so glad I left one clinic when I did because they suddenly decided about a year after I left that vets don't deserve breaks/lunch because they are salaried and shouldn't "make money while taking a break" that they need to see patients the whole day through. Taking a lunch is about much more than just eating, the mental break is necessary. Now breaks in ER don't happen. Sorry ER docs, I wish they did. They should happen, but ER is a bit of a different beast, maybe one day vet ER's will be staffed appropriately so that doctors can stagger in a 30-60 minute lunch break/reprieve, they deserve that break just like any other area of veterinary medicine or medicine in general.

I'd say owning a clinic might make the above go away, but that comes with much more stresses, financial difficulties, management issues, hiring of staff, etc. Owning a clinic isn't necessarily going to make anything better and you will put in a ton of hours when you take on ownership on top of the hours you work as a DVM.

 

[DVMDream]

What has started to bother me more lately is the way other DVMs treat each other, some of the things I have heard and seen from other vets towards other vets are just beyond astounding.

 

[kthopefullydvm]

So to those of you who are vets or are later on in vet school, if you had the opportunity to go back and pick a different career path, would you?
I have been having serious second thoughts about whether vet med is right for me, which I can’t tell if it’s just from anxiety/fear that I’m not good enough or if I’m truly not fit for being a vet. I’ve been researching other careers, so I’m wondering if I should even consider vet school anymore.

 

[DVMDream]

So to those of you who are vets or are later on in vet school, if you had the opportunity to go back and pick a different career path, would you?
I have been having serious second thoughts about whether vet med is right for me, which I can’t tell if it’s just from anxiety/fear that I’m not good enough or if I’m truly not fit for being a vet. I’ve been researching other careers, so I’m wondering if I should even consider vet school anymore.

I would be torn on either still doing vet school and strongly reconsidering specialization. I don't think I was meant for GP and that definitely affected me once I graduated and went directly into GP. I had other interests but convinced myself that I wasn't smart enough, couldn't write published stuffs, etc that is often needed to specialize. I'd strongly reconsider specialization.

Or I just wouldn't do vet school. I am going to be honest in that I was one of those that just "always wanted to be a vet". I have since realized there are other things I would have probably been happy learning/doing. I love putting lights to music and developing light show type of things. I wish I had more money to do this properly and wish I had the knowledge about different lighting options to do more than what I can do now. I probably would have considered going into some form of electrical engineering or something of the sort. Could then design/create special effects for shows, performances or even for private homes/businesses. Then I could do fostering of animals/animal care stuff on the side. I know now that there are so many other ways to involve yourself with helping animals that don't require a degree in veterinary medicine.

 

[mmmdreamerz]

So to those of you who are vets or are later on in vet school, if you had the opportunity to go back and pick a different career path, would you?
I have been having serious second thoughts about whether vet med is right for me, which I can’t tell if it’s just from anxiety/fear that I’m not good enough or if I’m truly not fit for being a vet. I’ve been researching other careers, so I’m wondering if I should even consider vet school anymore.

not a vet yet, but I also don't regret it yet. maybe that'll change. I hope not.

I will say that throughout vet school I've determined that I'm definitely not cut out for GP, which was my plan going in.

 

[DVMDream]

So to those of you who are vets or are later on in vet school, if you had the opportunity to go back and pick a different career path, would you?
I have been having serious second thoughts about whether vet med is right for me, which I can’t tell if it’s just from anxiety/fear that I’m not good enough or if I’m truly not fit for being a vet. I’ve been researching other careers, so I’m wondering if I should even consider vet school anymore.

I would be torn on either still doing vet school and strongly reconsidering specialization. I don't think I was meant for GP and that definitely affected me once I graduated and went directly into GP. I had other interests but convinced myself that I wasn't smart enough, couldn't write published stuffs, etc that is often needed to specialize. I'd strongly reconsider specialization, probably in something pathology related or radiology.

Or I just wouldn't do vet school. I am going to be honest in that I was one of those that just "always wanted to be a vet". To be quite straightforward, I never even considered anything else. I didn't attempt to research/experience/look into other careers or career paths or other options.

 

[SocialStigma]

So to those of you who are vets or are later on in vet school, if you had the opportunity to go back and pick a different career path, would you?
I have been having serious second thoughts about whether vet med is right for me, which I can’t tell if it’s just from anxiety/fear that I’m not good enough or if I’m truly not fit for being a vet. I’ve been researching other careers, so I’m wondering if I should even consider vet school anymore.

I'm a 2015 grad and I don't regret it, however I am a specialist. GP is definitely not for me and if I hadn't specialized, I wouldn't have wanted to be a vet.

 

[MixedAnimals77]

So to those of you who are vets or are later on in vet school, if you had the opportunity to go back and pick a different career path, would you?
I have been having serious second thoughts about whether vet med is right for me, which I can’t tell if it’s just from anxiety/fear that I’m not good enough or if I’m truly not fit for being a vet. I’ve been researching other careers, so I’m wondering if I should even consider vet school anymore.

Not a vet yet, but 3rd year. I think this is a healthy thought to have and I encourage you to get your feet wet in other areas if you can while continuing to get vet experience if you ultimately decide to pursue vet med. For me it was never vet school or bust. I was going to apply once, maybe twice but I definitely was not going to hang my life on it like some people do. I was working toward a different career while applying to vet school. I did really want to go to vet school and thus far have feel it's been a correct decision for me. However there is definitely some angst about the unknowns- having my license on the line, dealing with the bad apples of the public, etc. With that said- when I go back to my old GP practice and interact with clients as I learn more and get more experience I definitely feel more at home persay. So I hope I continue to have that experience even after I graduate, but I definitely think finding the practice makes a huge impact. I've been to some practices that I know I would be miserable at. It's definitely a very personal decision, but I know I do NOT want to specialize, it's not for me.

 

[battie]

So to those of you who are vets or are later on in vet school, if you had the opportunity to go back and pick a different career path, would you?
I have been having serious second thoughts about whether vet med is right for me, which I can’t tell if it’s just from anxiety/fear that I’m not good enough or if I’m truly not fit for being a vet. I’ve been researching other careers, so I’m wondering if I should even consider vet school anymore.

Current 4th year who had two opportunities to leave at drastic points during my vet school career and decided to stay. So far, I do not regret vet school itself, but I do regret what I have and have not prioritized during vet school. What was important while in didactics, especially early on, versus what I find important now that I'm in clinics/less than a year away from doctor life is definitely different. Part of that is due to the life experiences I've had in the last two years. Part of that is due to finding myself drawn more and more to specialization/less traditional career paths, which would be an extreme uphill battle for me (I think).

I was also on my third application cycle when I was accepted, which would have been my last. The career path I was creating at that time is definitely something I could have done life-long, no problem. And I do plan post-graduation for vet med to not be my life because to me it will be a career, not a lifestyle. I will try my hardest to leave work at work and my family/friends will be my life.

 

[Lupin21]

I was going to write something hopefully eloquent, but I am tired. Maybe I'll try again sometime. haha

 

[Minnerbelle]

So what do you recommend for students to do to maximize future happiness? Specialize? Is there anything we can do?

I feel like for many of us reading this thread, we're probably in too deep to run away now (or at least that's how it feels). So I am curious if any of you (@Minnerbelle, @DVMDream, @LetItSnow) have advice that can help us at least ATTEMPT to set ourselves up for future job satisfaction. But otherwise, is your consensus that vet school is not worth it?

It really depends on what bugs you the most and what brings you joy, as far as how to find happiness within this profession. Specialization might be one if you’re passionate about a particular field. But otherwise only working part time if you can afford it might be a good plan if you actually like clinical practice for all it entails. If you just like doing a ton of surgery and hate client interactions, doing S/N might bring you joy as long as you don’t mind shelter politics. Starting your own mobile practice or buying into ownership might be good for people who like practice but hate working for others, but ownership comes with its own set of issues. Or if all the baggage that comes with being the doctor in charge of everything at all times without any rewards to go along with it, then maybe relief work is good for you.

I still think vet school was worth it for me. I love being a vet. I just can’t find a place I like to call a home hospital. That annoys me and pisses me off all at the same time. But I would really miss being a vet if I stopped. I hate that i hate my job though.